SPOILER: Spoiler Metal Gear Solid V (TPS) Spoiler Thread (Contains Spoilers, Thanos).
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Ether_Snake
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So, why did Chico have an earphone jack in his chest? He was supposed to become "a real soldier now".
And the motion capture session photo we saw of someone with a katana waw one of the skulls?
Why doesn't Ishmael have the big snake-shaped scar on his chest?
And the motion capture session photo we saw of someone with a katana waw one of the skulls?
Why doesn't Ishmael have the big snake-shaped scar on his chest?
And yet for me it works better this time, simply because he is a blank slate.
You can disagree, but apparently there are more than one opinion.
I wouldn't be surprised, it's very common in the industry.
Isn't the "scar" just some weird saw-wire that Big Boss removed in Peace Walker to free himself?
Honestly, I hated the twist from the very first moment it was theorized. It kind of makes the events of this game feel a bit pointless and takes away from BB's character development by relegating it to off-screen events. I'm sure some will liken it to MGS2 with Raiden, but I don't think it's nearly the same. At least in MGS2, you got to see SS playing a role throughout the story, only through the eyes of another character.
And, in a series that's known for its ridiculous elements, even I have a hard time grasping how they can create a nearly perfect body double, who has BB's memories, who has his skills, and can manage his empire like he was the real thing. What exactly was so special about Big Boss then (and worth cloning him over), if anybody can apparently do what he did? It sort of cheapens what the real character was about by giving the exact same traits/abilities to somebody else.
Then again, this series has had an awful penchant for that - taking what made one character special and their distributing it to other characters. The defining aspects of BB's character/accomplishments have slowly been dispersed among The Boss, Gene, Miller, and now this unsuspecting medic. Otacon's accomplishments were delegated to his father (and Granin). Whatever made Gray Fox special was copied with Raiden.
Obviously, I'm willing to change my mind once I see the actual execution of this twist, but I think it's pretty terrible conceptually .
And, in a series that's known for its ridiculous elements, even I have a hard time grasping how they can create a nearly perfect body double, who has BB's memories, who has his skills, and can manage his empire like he was the real thing. What exactly was so special about Big Boss then (and worth cloning him over), if anybody can apparently do what he did? It sort of cheapens what the real character was about by giving the exact same traits/abilities to somebody else.
Then again, this series has had an awful penchant for that - taking what made one character special and their distributing it to other characters. The defining aspects of BB's character/accomplishments have slowly been dispersed among The Boss, Gene, Miller, and now this unsuspecting medic. Otacon's accomplishments were delegated to his father (and Granin). Whatever made Gray Fox special was copied with Raiden.
Obviously, I'm willing to change my mind once I see the actual execution of this twist, but I think it's pretty terrible conceptually .
Yup. I feel the exact same. The series story just lost itself after MGS3 and became utterly perfunctory. Kojima took the easiest ways out for everything and they seem deprived of any real intelligence.
No, it isn't, and I've already explained how this is the case (heavy hints within the game itself).
he was unprepared because he never considered an organization would attack him by pretending to be someone else. He was, by definition, unprepared.
I understand the whole "the game doesn't develop BB into who he is in MG1 and 2." My ideas for why this could potentially really work center around who you do play as, not who you don't.
I think this is pretty clever when you read it like that, but as much as love videogames and get immersed in them, killing videogame characters just isn't enough to make me personally hate Big Boss, if making Big Boss the villain by deceiving the player is what Kojima was betting on in order to justify him as a villain, it won't work for a large amount of the people who were expected to see this development.
To me, it just makes him an asshole, and the medic's story quite tragic, but I can't self insert that much to be actually angry at him.
Exactly! Saying "but this makes Big Boss just as evil, in a way" isn't really a satisfying answer, it wasn't just about making him evil, but actually showing his descent to madness, that's the development we wanted to see, not just get the information that he sucks, we already had that before MGS V, it absolutely makes MGS V's main story feel like pointless filler, even if it can be quite well made and the medic's story is, in my opinion, legit great.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
So, basically, what you're saying is: you're disappointed because the MGS saga revealed that your heroes aren't unique, one-of-a-kind, special snow flakes, but mere individuals whose abilities and accomplishments could also be achieved by others through memetics, context, training and/or pure will?
GG, Kojima. GG.
Which is a returning theme in the series. Good post.
I agree that MGS3 was the last "well-written" entry.
(Although I like MGS4 for what it is - the plot is just a mess of fan service and easy answers that don't hold up under scrutiny.)
And the funny thing about MGS3? Despite all the rumors and theories about it dealing with time travel or Solid Snake reliving events through VR or whatever, Kojima ultimately kept it straightforward and made it about Big Boss. There wasn't some out-of-left field unrealistic twist, just an emotional one. And it was effective.
Similarly, I wish we would have gotten a straightforward arc in this one. There was no need for this added complication.
Yes, it is. "Plastic surgery", "hypnosis", etc. All cop-out nonsense that doesn't work when actually applied logically. Used because they're cheap and easy, regardless if they work or not. Here they just do. Apparently Decoy Octopus wasn't such a master of disguise since literally anyone can be disguised as anyone. Nanomachines and parasites are equally stupid explanations for anything, because they're used to explain everything, which is an utter impossibility.
That's not what you were implying at all, nor does it matter. None of the characters in the series are impervious. Of course he considered an organization would attack him, he says it outright in Peace Walker. He has no reason to suspect the IAEA inspection being a cover since an investigation is a natural consequence of MSF's expansion. Skullface had the means to impersonate the IAEA. You are not unprepared just because you were blind-sided, no amount of preparation can eliminate that risk. Going by your logic, Big Boss should've still been in hiding after Ground Zeroes way up until MGS4, because he has a risky life and is always "unprepared." He was always going to be a global target, there absolutely was no avoiding this.
You can look at that way and I'm sure that's what Kojima is saying to some degree, but I see it as making MGS' world a little smaller, one character at a time. Your main character is always a dunce who gets played and his sidekick is always an "Otacon," etc. That's such a suffocating vision of worldbuilding.
Heck it even takes away from MGS2's own unique theme about how the sequences of events were playing out exactly like Shadow Moses because it was a purposeful simulation plan, by distributing that theme to EVERY OTHER game in the series now.
This is one of the recurring themes of the series, yes, but it's not the reason people are disappointed, it's instead because Kojima wasted the opportunity to show us Big Boss' "transformation" to make the exact same point he's been making throughout the series.
LOL that's so true regarding Decoy Octopus.
Things I have learned from this thread
- Bananamachines existed in World War 2
- Otacon's family is even more fucked up than we thought
- Quiet's boobs are tumors
- The creators of the new Metal Gear watched too much Gundam
- I still have no clue which Big Boss is in the post-credits scene of Metal Gear Solid 4.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
It actually makes the world smaller, its characters less distinctive, the journeys more pointless. It actually makes me less interested in the world, if you're always just some dumb pawn at the whims of highly contrived, convoluted, credibility-straining scheme or theme.
Like...if anything is possible, if there are no real rules, and anything could be a lie or manipulation or retcon'd at the magical handwave of Ocelot triple agents/clones/nanomachines/memory implants/hypnosis, then who fuckin' cares? Why invest in any of it? Like there's not even a shock value to it anymore when you do it every fuckin' game.
Like...if anything is possible, if there are no real rules, and anything could be a lie or manipulation or retcon'd at the magical handwave of Ocelot triple agents/clones/nanomachines/memory implants/hypnosis, then who fuckin' cares? Why invest in any of it? Like there's not even a shock value to it anymore when you do it every fuckin' game.
The real one, who wasn't such a bad guy until he suddenly was according to The Phantom Pain.
Exactly!
This is why I was won over by the reveal that we play as a double. The series is known for turning convention on its head (both for story and gameplay) and when the theme of "everything is a lie", or "legends are manipulated," was brought up, I started to embrace it.
I'm now glad Big Boss isn't just some fallen angel narrative... his entire legacy is now a sham. That is what pisses people off, but I find it genius.
The point of the whole series is telling you that governments lie, myths and legends are just that, and debating nature vs. nurture. This Big Boss body double theory really plays on those themes; and I'll take a story that enhances the overall themes of the series from the last 17 years than a story that enhances the legend of one key player (Big Boss).
I guess I also view it a little bit differently from other people in the sense that I see this game as adding an interesting character rather than destroying an interesting character. I think Big Boss is still as interesting as he ever was, but now we also have this other player in the timeline, Venom Snake, who is quite tragic, yet bad ass.
I love it.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Yet no one bats an eyelid when fighting the guy that shoots bees out of his asshole because it's a cool boss fight.
The narrative in the series isn't as cheap or easy than you think; you're just angry because its conclusions aren't lining up with your power fantasy expectations.
Nah, it's nowhere near the suffocating world-shrinking of the Star Wars prequel. If anyone wants a good example of horrible, canon-breaking retcon-writing, then take a look at that trilogy.
And it's not necessarily about reusing a theme over and over again, but more about the context in which that theme pops up again. In Raiden's case, it was recreating situations (context) to create a super soldier, in Venom Snake's case it's about believing in a legend. A name. (And in Solid Snake's case it was about genetics. And in Big Boss' case it was about training and misdirection.)
If anything, the reuse of theme is what makes the saga's message stick with me so much. It means that, no matter what you try, you can't escape the truth, which is that we, as individuals, aren't bound by a single fate and can shape ourselves to be whoever we want to be. It's a powerful message told in a tragic way.
The only problem of this thematic reuse is that it has become a bit predictable by now, but I can live with that in my overall appreciation of it.
Except he made that transformation in Snake Eater already.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
I can't even sync trophies. Doesn't seem like Sony has turned on any of the TPP stuffs yet.
See this would be good if the way of achieving it wasn't complete nonsense.
No, everyone bat an eye at that. Except now it's explained with "parasites." So it's somehow managed to become even dumber. I had no expectations for this game at all, I checked out of the story with MGS4. I can just recognize bad storytelling when I see it. This is a prime example. I shit on Resident Evil 6 for a very similar reason, but at least the explanation there not only worked logically, but it was consistent with and followed the rules outlined by the series universe.
AWESOME.
Then don't play the game?
I for one have loved everything I've seen and am going to play the shit out of this game
Plastic surgery is nonsense? What? Hypnosis, or in general recreating a persona, has already been a part of the series since at the latest MGS2, and was demonstrated as possible in TPP's time by Peace Walker with The Boss AI.
It sounds to me like an argument saying Bruce Willis was always dead is nonsense, because ghosts aren't a thing. Yes, logically the Sixth Sense twist doesn't make sense because of that, but it's heavily foreshadowed within the movie and the context of the twist had already been established as possible.
Yes, being blind-sided means you were unprepared for something. And the concept of a trojan horse when, as he says, the world is against him isn't some totally bizarre idea. You are letting a substantial amount of foreign entities into your home base and you aren't going to prepare at all for the possibility of attack? Ok.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Exactly.
I can see why people hate this, as they desperately want to play with "their big hero" (LOL, Sons of Liberty much?) but the point is that THEY THEMSELVES are the hero. (It's the entire point of Master Chief's design too, btw.) Because they chose to play the game. Because they have been given an assignment.
Big Boss isn't a legendary super soldier, he is an idea. A construct.
stufte
Member
I don't know whether to get excited or be sad. My emotions, man!
Foxtastical
Member
Haha, man, you guys just carry so much negativity in you. How do you get through the day, haha.
It's not perfect, and this isn't necessarily the way I wanted to see it all go down as someone who has been reserving and waiting and stoking my Metal Gear boner since MGS1. But you know, there's ways of looking at it that aren't so bad. There's ways of making sense or making interesting interpretations of it all.
Man, MGS4, I still get a little annoyed thinking about what that game did to a lot of the characters. But you find the good in it and enjoy it for that. You find interesting interpretations that you like and enjoy. I'll do the same here. And if I don't or can't find one, well then fuck, I'll move on.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Its totally possible to criticize something and enjoy it. Its not binary Amazing/Garbage thing.
I've been a big critic of Metal Gear's narrative stylings for years now. But it also looks like this has the richest, most intuitive game design in the series. I can handle another terrible Kojima-penned story with characters who talk like aliens about THEMES and retcons that make me roll my eyes if the game design is on point.
Well, I'm not going to speak for anybody else, but I always thought The Pain was a ridiculous stupid character.
Regardless, though, creating stupid-ass "comic book villain" boss characters who bear no impact on the story is a little different that exercising universally reviled storytelling tropes like "plastic surgery" and "brainwashing" and applying them to your main character. You cannot liken the two so easily.
Foxtastical
Member
Exactly.
Plastic surgery to the degree of making a black man look exactly like a white man and not also look like a ghoul? Also making them sound exactly alike but oh wait they already did except after the coma his pitch suddenly corrected itself? Plastic surgery is haphazard in the modern age but apparently it's perfect so long as it's an excuse for a shitty plot point.
How did they implant Big Boss' memories at all? Only he is privy to them. Only he knows how emotionally affected he was by The Boss' death. These sorts of things cannot be conveyed by someone else through hypnosis, and they most certainly wouldn't be precise memories. You can't just hypnotize someone into being the single best soldier in the world. That's absolutely fucking ludicrous. The Peace Walker AI was also stupid. Hypnosis wasn't used in MGS2. Raiden's memory was suppressed chemically.
Big Boss didn't let them in. Huey did. Big Boss was elsewhere. He trusted Huey's judgement and Huey himself made a convincing case. You're painting it as a black and white prepared/unprepared issue when it has nothing to do with preparedness.
Glad to hear it
It just sounded like you really, really had no interest in playing it I guess we won't see eye to eye about the plot though, because I definitely like it ^_^
Well, I guess, but you know what I mean. No one was disappointed because we've seen it in Snake Eater already when we thought this would be what The Phantom Pain was about.
Main point is: It's not because of the "anyone can be the legend" angle, or the "the legend was actually a sham" angle, that's actually kind of neat, it's more about losing a very interesting straightforward story in favor of a redundant point being made.
When "we don't play as the real Big Boss" theories started to surface, I assumed that, if it was real, it would be done like "Big Boss is dead and you're his replacement to keep the legend alive", it would still serve the same purpose, and, since the original Big Boss is no more, this replacement with his looks and memories going through this downfall would still be "the real Big Boss", for all intents and purposes. Him being just a decoy for the real one is a neat thing on itself, but not as good as a more straightforward story would be, in my opinion.
This is so cool! Can't wait to explore the shit out of this game looking for every easter egg I can find.
The thing I maybe dislike most about this plot is that a certain segment of people are going to liken it to MGS2 and how "all of its haters are wrong, so you must be too in regards to this game because THEMES."
Kojima wrote a bulletproof plot apparently for this group of people; employing "everything is a lie" as your theme apparently gives you justification to do whatever you want to characters, plot motivations, or retcons.
He would have had his story ended in MGS3. But then Kojima decided to expand, and MGS3's ending was no longer the "point of no return." Then Kojima hyped up literally every single subsequent game as THE "missing link" toward how Big Boss turned into a warmongering dictator with an army of child soldiers.
Portable Ops concluded satisfactorily. It could've ended there. Kojima didn't think so. Peace Walker concluded satisfactorily. It could've ended there. Kojima wanted something completely ridiculous for the sake of "da big tweest" and out came The Phantom Pain, explaining absolutely nothing unless a perfunctory excuse could be used instead, regressing the character and adding unnecessary confusion to the entire series.
TheCthultist
Member
Just out of curiosity, who do you view as the "Otacon" in Snake Eater? And your "sidekick" in MGS2 is Snake.
Bringing up modern day real-life technology is irrelevant, because in the MG universe the technology of 30 years ago already surpasses what we have now. I'm going to stop arguing this point, though, because it's clear from your posts that you don't care about in-universe consistency, so it's a bit pointless for me to argue that. Edit: Of course, MG's in-universe consistency isn't all that great, so I'm not advocating an iron-clad adherence to "canon explanations" or anything. Rather that the idea of a memory-implanted double doesn't "come from nowhere."
What makes you say they are precise memories? What makes you say Venom is the best soldier in the world? Neither are necessary for the narrative to work. And as for creating personas, I was talking about the Patriots simulating Campbell and Rose.
It doesn't matter who was there when they arrived. BB knew about it beforehand and didn't prepare for a possibility that anyone claiming "the world is against us" should have prepared for.
These tropes are employed to various degrees throughout the series. My statement wasn't meant to be taken literally for every single game.
That being said, MGS3 was a notable departure in terms of character dynamics. (Though I guess you can kind of say Sokolv was the Otacon, but I admit it is not really the same.)
However, with the "Big Boss trilogy" of games, we've notably regressed back to cloning character types outright. Otacon is almost literally the same character as his dad.
Big Boss' story should've ended in Portable Ops. It tied up all there was to tie up from MGS3. He realizes he's a natural leader who gains support easily, resolves to follow a different path from The Boss, establishes FOXHOUND, secretly has the funds and idea to form Outer Heaven.
Peace Walker and The Phantom Pain have done nothing to advance the story, for Big Boss or for anything else.
I'm not referring to modern day real-life technology. There's simply no justification for plastic surgery in this universe. Using your own logic about preparedness, how is it that nobody ever suspects anybody else of being a doppleganger achieved through surgery? Decoy Octopus doesn't have a reason to exist at all with your logic, for instance. I care about in-universe consistency in all the stories I enjoy, I don't enjoy this one because it lacks any consistency and Kojima has even admitted this. You're twisting examples while misunderstanding them to suit your point of view, rather than presenting them as they are.
They would need to be precise memories otherwise the whole thing doesn't work. People are the sum of their memories. "Personae" are impossible without them. AI's simulating humans or memories is significantly different, for reasons I shouldn't need to explain. Colonel and Rose also weren't mere pre-made simulations, they were formed by Raiden's own mental expectations of what they'd be like. That's why the Colonel is notably more stern and emotionless compared to the real Campbell, because that's what Raiden expects from a commanding officer. As for Rose, she doesn't appear in AI form except at the end when another AI takes over and merely uses Raiden's image of her. The portrayal is otherwise totally different from the real Rose, because it's just an AI talking with her voice and face. AI representations are not even close to 100% accurate like Venom Snake and The Boss' AI was created by one of the only people closest to her, and not without much trial and error and while still being very basic.
You keep using that shitty excuse but keep failing to acknowledge how your reasoning is impossible. Big Boss was always going to be attacked at some point by someone. There was no avoiding this. He could be as fortified and prepared as the entire standing U.S. Army and he'd still suffer from attacks. He acknowledged this. He was attacked. He should've come back swinging as implied by all of the promotion for the game, but instead he took a backseat, just like his antithesis, Zero. The very thing he fought against. That's illogical and contradictory.
Peace Walker and The Phantom Pain have done nothing to advance the story, for Big Boss or for anything else.
I'm not referring to modern day real-life technology. There's simply no justification for plastic surgery in this universe. Using your own logic about preparedness, how is it that nobody ever suspects anybody else of being a doppleganger achieved through surgery? Decoy Octopus doesn't have a reason to exist at all with your logic, for instance. I care about in-universe consistency in all the stories I enjoy, I don't enjoy this one because it lacks any consistency and Kojima has even admitted this. You're twisting examples while misunderstanding them to suit your point of view, rather than presenting them as they are.
They would need to be precise memories otherwise the whole thing doesn't work. People are the sum of their memories. "Personae" are impossible without them. AI's simulating humans or memories is significantly different, for reasons I shouldn't need to explain. Colonel and Rose also weren't mere pre-made simulations, they were formed by Raiden's own mental expectations of what they'd be like. That's why the Colonel is notably more stern and emotionless compared to the real Campbell, because that's what Raiden expects from a commanding officer. As for Rose, she doesn't appear in AI form except at the end when another AI takes over and merely uses Raiden's image of her. The portrayal is otherwise totally different from the real Rose, because it's just an AI talking with her voice and face. AI representations are not even close to 100% accurate like Venom Snake and The Boss' AI was created by one of the only people closest to her, and not without much trial and error and while still being very basic.
You keep using that shitty excuse but keep failing to acknowledge how your reasoning is impossible. Big Boss was always going to be attacked at some point by someone. There was no avoiding this. He could be as fortified and prepared as the entire standing U.S. Army and he'd still suffer from attacks. He acknowledged this. He was attacked. He should've come back swinging as implied by all of the promotion for the game, but instead he took a backseat, just like his antithesis, Zero. The very thing he fought against. That's illogical and contradictory.
robotoboy20
Banned
And she's basically a sadist.
The thing is the old team are all made out to be awful shitty people... You play MGS3 and they all seem really good hearted. Paramedic is an animal lover, Sigint just wants to help out... Zero is a spy movie nut who's good buds with BB... and BB is a goodhearted rookie soldier.
Now we just get this whole - Oh but you know they weren't really all that bad!
Fuck. No. They were horrible. Yeah people seem to think that because they didn't directly do these things they're somehow whitewashed!? Nah... Solid has to clean up a huge mess he suffers from genetic defects, and manipulation via his own fathers, and mother as well PTSD... Hal has to go through a ton of shit and trauma... Venom Snakes life is taken from him by force, by the man he looked up to and idolized... Liquid is convinced he must carry on his father's legacy by Ocelot... Raiden is raised and tailored into a child soldier, murder hungry, psychopath... Paramedic does human experimentation on a trusted friend of BB...
The nature of the human experiments they commit are basically war crimes. Their victims are all of the unhinged - fucked up characters in the future series. All of Solids colleagues and enemies - manipulated by BB, Zero, Paramedic, Solidus, Ocelot etc.
Venom is horrible person - yeah... he's a sociopath, that's established in his lack of remorse for murdering people. However what BB and the others do - they're just... they play god. They manipulate and create and toy with life. I'm not religious or anything, but there is something really fucked up about human experimentation of any kind... especially on unwilling, or unwitting subjects.
This just makes me like Solid, Hal, Raiden even more... Poor guys. I mean BB's horrible side kind of manifests itself through Liquid, and Solidus... They both commit war crimes, and George is supposedly a genetically identical clone to BB. Liquid at least has nurture to blame to some extent... but he seems pretty awful to start. George raises child soldiers... one of them being Raiden... he even fed them gunpowder... I mean c'mon maybe BB never needed to "descend" into a villain.... maybe he was always capable of doing horrid shit like he did to Venom... he just needed the power to do so.
Contemporary protags 4lyfe
theofficefan99
Junior Member
Soooo can someone explain to me what's the issue with this game's story and why it's horrible? I'm lost here.
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