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[JayEH]

This is the way I'm going to interpret the ending now. You get the tape from Big Boss he tells you you're Big Boss too. You smirk (the player) because ok that's kinda cool. Then after you listen to the intrude tape and the time lapse (in game and real life) happens Venom and the player are both pissed. Venom becomes because he's being used by the real big boss and then the player is mad this dumb twist just happened. That's why you become Demon Snake in that scene. So pissed that you played this whole side story for a shitty ending that you metaphorically have blood on your face and a huge horn. An ending like this could only come from the mind of Hideo Kojima, a true master.

Spoiler

Fuck this game's story.

 

[Neiteio]

I kind of think it's both? It's a real character which is part of the fiction now, but it's also the player in a senser. The game does call it avatar. To me it feels more like a character created with the help of the player.

I see it like there's a framework that's there -- a set of personality traits (the more passive, introverted, motherly type), a certain worldview, and a certain sense of right and wrong... stuff that translates to feelings like guilt over Paz, a growing benevolence toward enemies, etc -- stuff we see reflected in dialogue and action beyond our control.

But on top of that, the player has room to "feel" as Venom since he's written in a way where some of his thoughts and feelings are open to interpretation. It's not all spelled out.

 

[heringer]

Venom isn't me. You are right in that this was Kojima's intention, but he failed horribly in the execution. Up to the twist we think we are playing as Big Boss, who is already a predefined character, for one but that's not even the main problem.

The main problem is that even the game can't decide if the player is supposed to be Venom or not. We get moments like Skullface's jeep ride mixed in the Medic's (not ours) guilt over not getting the bomb out, which is HIS guilt after all, for we played Big Boss in Ground Zeroes, not the Medic.

EDIT: And as others have pointed above, more often than not Venom makes his own choices and statements, without the input of the player.

And speaking more broadly, silent protagonists need to go away. The only games I can stand them in are Zelda games and Souls games. Why is it that I feel more immersed in Geralt and Adam Jensen than any Bethesda or old D&D game?

That's a good point. I think that pretty much establishes him as a character.

 

[Neiteio]

At the 1:50 mark: "Best to change your face, too." Ocelot to Big Boss. Giving him a passport with the Medic's face.

Wow, I had forgotten about that bit. So there was just one Big Boss i.e. Venom till proper Big Boss got his face back for whatever reason. He kinda became Venom's phantom now that I think of it.

Yep, seems clear to me that BB changed his face after TPP. People can call it a retcon, but it's right there in the game. And it would certainly explain how he was not recognized at FOXHOUND.

 

[JayEH]

Yep, seems clear to me that BB changed his face after TPP. People can call it a retcon, but it's right there in the game. And it would certainly explain how he was not recognized at FOXHOUND.

Well this brings up another issue. If Big Boss establishes Foxhound (as it was said in the timeline) with a new face, why is this new "person" that he is now never mentioned? There's no indication that Venom is part of Foxhound.

 

[Neiteio]

Well this brings up another issue. If Big Boss establishes Foxhound (as it was said in the timeline) with a new face, why is this new "person" that he is now never mentioned? There's no indication that Venom is part of Foxhound.

Why would Venom need to be part of FOXHOUND? Venom was perceived to be BB in Outer Heaven.

 

[Johndoey]

Yep, seems clear to me that BB changed his face after TPP. People can call it a retcon, but it's right there in the game. And it would certainly explain how he was not recognized at FOXHOUND.

That doesn't work because of how Metal Gear 1 flows into Metal Gear 2, plus I thought while he was at Foxhound he was known to be the famed soldier Big Boss.

 

[JayEH]

Why would Venom need to be part of FOXHOUND? Venom was perceived to be BB in Outer Heaven.

Because Big Boss is the head of Foxhound. And if Big Boss has a new face he can't be the head of foxhound as big boss.

 

[Neiteio]

That doesn't work because of how Metal Gear 1 flows into Metal Gear 2, plus I thought while he was at Foxhound he was known to be the famed soldier Big Boss.

Look, I'm a bit confused, too, but the game ends with Ocelot explicitly telling BB to change his face while handing him a passport with a picture of his new identity. I think it may be a retcon.

 

[Shadow_Lord]

At the 1:50 mark: "Best to change your face, too." Ocelot to Big Boss. Giving him a passport with the Medic's face.

Ocelot suggested he change his face. Doesn't mean that Big Boss did it.

 

[Neiteio]

Ocelot suggested he change his face. Doesn't mean that Big Boss did it.

Sure, but it seems like an odd detail to focus on if it's of no significance.

 

[JayEH]

Or Kojima just didn't think things through which is the most likely scenario.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

-Alert
-Taking too long

What I do is spawn in the LZ nearby with ddawg + a vehicle, go to town on dem bitches, fulton 1 vehicle then rescuel all prisoners, fuck the mission.

That said I managed to extract most vehicles on time, triggered multiple alerts and still was able to rescue all the prisoners in the EXTREME version of the mission.

Yeah the best way to do an everything run would be to take out the search team then immediately hightail it after the first target vehicle.

From my experience playing the mission it seems like if you've got a very short timer upon getting close to the search team before they kill the prisoner, and the timer for killing him if you're not nearby starts when you complete the first part of the mission.

 

[Zomba13]

Sure, but it seems like an odd detail to focus on if it's of no significance.

But Big Boss' face is the same face as Solid Snake/Naked Snake but older in the other games. His MGSIV face isn't some new weird face, it's the face he's had since Metal Gear 1 and 2 which (should) just be the MGS3 (Solid/Liquid/Solidus Snake face) but older. This is obvious when you see Solidus (the perfect clone but also looking older despite being younger than Solid) and he looks exactly like Old Big Boss looks which proves Big Boss never changes his face and if it's a retcon then it fucks up multiple games including Metal Gear 1.

 

[Neiteio]

Or Kojima just didn't think things through which is the most likely scenario.

Maybe Ocelot wanted to make his man-crush even more perfect by giving him a better face.

 

[heringer]

MG1 will be retconned in the remake anyway.

 

[JayEH]

Maybe Ocelot wanted to make his man-crush even more perfect by giving him a better face.

I thought he loved him for who he was

MG1 will be retconned in the remake anyway.

Coming to a smartphone near you.

 

[Neiteio]

But Big Boss' face is the same face as Solid Snake/Naked Snake but older in the other games. His MGSIV face isn't some new weird face, it's the face he's had since Metal Gear 1 and 2 which (should) just be the MGS3 (Solid/Liquid/Solidus Snake face) but older. This is obvious when you see Solidus (the perfect clone but also looking older despite being younger than Solid) and he looks exactly like Old Big Boss looks which proves Big Boss never changes his face and if it's a retcon then it fucks up multiple games including Metal Gear 1.

MGS4 BB actually gets back his old face from Solidus. It was a transplant, grafted from Solidus onto BB. Remember, BB was fucked up after MG2.

 

[Srey Plaughtered]

Yep, seems clear to me that BB changed his face after TPP. People can call it a retcon, but it's right there in the game. And it would certainly explain how he was not recognized at FOXHOUND.

That brings up even more questions. @__@

Maybe Big Boss founded Foxhound after changing back his face. Or he changed back his face after finding Foxhound.
I'm guessing Kojima just thought the idea of Venom looking over Outer Heaven while Big Boss founded Zanzibarland's Outer Heaven and tried to cram what he can in the existing timeline. The retconing strikes again.

I don't blame him though, he's trying to connect a game written a few years ago with a game made back in 1990.

Ocelot suggested he change his face. Doesn't mean that Big Boss did it.

He must've changed his face to use the Passport. Can't go much far with just the Bike now.

 

[Johndoey]

Look, I'm a bit confused, too, but the game ends with Ocelot explicitly telling BB to change his face while handing him a passport with a picture of his new identity. I think it may be a retcon.

Man the retcons can only go so far, slotting in New pieces to alter the context of Metal Gear is fine, but this requires that Metal Gear straight up can't have occurred as portrayed in the original game. This requires a complete rewrite of Metal Gear. Plus it changes solid Snakes relationship with Big Boss. This is a case where I prefer the plot hole to the possible retcon.

 

[Neiteio]

MG1 will be retconned in the remake anyway.

The official guide, supervised by Kojima, actually has an extensive note saying that every detail in MG1 and MG2 should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. (That's more or less the way they worded it, too)

In other words, MG1 and MG2 are free game for extensive retcons, by Kojima's own admission.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Venom isn't me. You are right in that this was Kojima's intention, but he failed horribly in the execution. Up to the twist we think we are playing as Big Boss, who is already a predefined character, for one but that's not even the main problem.

The main problem is that even the game can't decide if the player is supposed to be Venom or not. We get moments like Skullface's jeep ride mixed in the Medic's (not ours) guilt over not getting the bomb out, which is HIS guilt after all, for we played Big Boss in Ground Zeroes, not the Medic.

EDIT: And as others have pointed above, more often than not Venom makes his own choices and statements, without the input of the player.

And speaking more broadly, silent protagonists need to go away. The only games I can stand them in are Zelda games and Souls games. Why is it that I feel more immersed in Geralt and Adam Jensen than any Bethesda or old D&D game?

Bingo.

 

[Xiraiya]

The official guide, supervised by Kojima, actually has an extensive note saying that every detail in MG1 and MG2 should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. (That's more or less the way they worded it, too)

In other words, MG1 and MG2 are free game for extensive retcons, by Kojima's own admission.

That makes sense, that's how I kind of considered them when I played MGS1 initially too, Portable Ops is the same way since he never wrote the story, so I just ignore whatever that bullshit was with Null.

 

[JayEH]

The official guide, supervised by Kojima, actually has an extensive note saying that every detail in MG1 and MG2 should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. (That's more or less the way they worded it, too)

In other words, MG1 and MG2 are free game for extensive retcons, by Kojima's own admission.

This isn't the first time he's retconned those two games before. Hell he had Big Boss tell Snake he was his father in MG2 according to MGS1 but at this point the retcons are ridiculous. It's frustrating since he obviously has his own head canon of what went down there and we're all here trying to put the pieces together.

 

[Neiteio]

This isn't the first time he's retconned those two games before. Hell he had Big Boss tell Snake he was his father in MG2 according to MGS1 but at this point the retcons are ridiculous. It's frustrating since he obviously has his own head canon of what went down there and we're all here trying to put the pieces together.

Yeah. In fact, the guidebook even says that the only details in MG1 and MG2 that remain true are the details that don't directly contradict details from the modern MGS games.

So if MGSV suggests BB changed his face... Well, he probably did.

Seems like each new installment gets the final say on what's what, especially vs. the 8-bit originals.

 

[Zomba13]

MGS4 BB actually gets back his old face from Solidus. It was a transplant, grafted from Solidus onto BB. Remember, BB was fucked up after MG2.

But in the history Big Boss was still the leader of Foxhound. He was still mentioned as the leader of Foxhound in Metal Gear Solid 1 and depicted with the proper, non-changed face (so not subject to the MG1 and 2 are bullshit if I need them to be that Kojima said).

Plus in MG1 and 2 both Venom and BB look the same which is why it's a shock to Snake that he has to kill his mentor. It wouldn't be a twist if they looked different but shared a name. But then, with that being subject to retcon fuckery, it makes the entire twist and big plot point of Metal Gear nothing, because now Snake doesn't train under Big Boss but Ig Oss while Big Boss is in charge of Outer Heaven.

It fucks with every game because now Solid Snake never met Big Boss while at Foxhound because Foxhound wasn't run by Big Boss but by Zomba13 (or Big Dick Mc'Gee, Or John Johnson, Or Big Boss).

 

[The Silver]

You know with how BB rejects the clones as his children and just sees them as men, I find it very doubtful he told Solid that he was his daddy.

Only way I see it happening is if BB said it as psychological warfare to stop Solid from burning his ass to deatth.

 

[Neiteio]

Venom isn't me. You are right in that this was Kojima's intention, but he failed horribly in the execution. Up to the twist we think we are playing as Big Boss, who is already a predefined character, for one but that's not even the main problem.

The main problem is that even the game can't decide if the player is supposed to be Venom or not. We get moments like Skullface's jeep ride mixed in the Medic's (not ours) guilt over not getting the bomb out, which is HIS guilt after all, for we played Big Boss in Ground Zeroes, not the Medic.

EDIT: And as others have pointed above, more often than not Venom makes his own choices and statements, without the input of the player.

And speaking more broadly, silent protagonists need to go away. The only games I can stand them in are Zelda games and Souls games. Why is it that I feel more immersed in Geralt and Adam Jensen than any Bethesda or old D&D game?

There's no inconsistency here. Not talking during the jeep scene doesn't mean Venom was indifferent to what was being said. He was just letting Skull Face talk. The whole point of meeting with Skull Face was to try and understand his plan. You don't do that by interrupting him every few seconds to repeat the last word he said, lol.

At the end of the day, Venom makes his fair share of decisions, says his fair share of comments, and expresses his fair share of feelings, completely independent of the player.

Venom is his own character, just written in such a way that his thoughts and feelings aren't always explicitly spelled out. His core is clear -- his guilt, growing benevolence, etc -- but there's room for the player to add their own feelings on top.

 

[JayEH]

Seriously though Gray Fox should have been Venom. Gray Fox is awesome. You get a gray fox game and establishes his loyalty to boss in later games. Two birds with one stone.

 

[The Silver]

All the MGS playable characters are intended to be player avatars to some extent, it's why they keep acting like idiots and repeating things and such.

Kojima loves to copy movies and he saw Mad Max and thought it would be super awesome mondo cool to have Snake be like that, he fucked up and it come across as Venom being an awkward weirdo.

 

[JayEH]

I just noticed in the ending that on the passport it says Venom was born in 1932. That would make him 3 years older than Big Boss. Nothing substantial just found it to be an interesting detail.

 

[Roni]

Spoiler

Having to answer plot questions with vague suppositions and questioning the author's intent is not indicative of a good story.

That statement doesn't hold up at all. So movies with open, vague endings never feature a good story in your book?

 

[Arttemis]

There could have been so many birds with one stone, but instead, we get more stones and a roadkill crow.

 

[Xiraiya]

You know with how BB rejects the clones as his children and just sees them as men, I find it very doubtful he told Solid that he was his daddy.

Only way I see it happening is if BB said it as psychological warfare to stop Solid from burning his ass to deatth.

No I think that would be exactly what an old and messed up Big Boss would do, I really feel like the way Solid talks about that fight in MGS1 is actually quite similar to the encounter with The Boss in MGS3, that situation was the trauma of his life and what caused him to retire and be a hermit in Alaska, being a dog musher and drinking his life away.

 

[Neiteio]

No I think that would be exactly what an old and messed up Big Boss would do, I really feel like the way Solid talks about that fight in MGS1 is actually quite similar to the encounter with The Boss in MGS3, that situation was the trauma of his life and what caused him to retire and be a hermit in Alaska, being a dog musher and drinking his life away.

I still want a game that is essentially Diddy Kong Racing but with Snake and friends being dog mushers in Alaska.

Snake Adventure Sledding

Snakey Kong Racing

 

[thetrin]

I keep wondering who the fuck let this dude join Foxhound. Cause Foxhound is an American joint right? I feel like Big Boss is probably a known war criminal. Zero was brain dead by the time Big would've join back up, so maybe good ol' DARPA Chief greased some wheels, or Ocelot would have some connections.

That's exactly what I don't understand.

Also, for the new passport to work, he'd have to change his face. So...what? He changes his face, goes back to the US, and then changes it back? Plastic surgery doesn't work like that.

That statement doesn't hold up at all. So movies with open, vague endings never feature a good story in your book?

If a movie's intention is to tie up the story gap between two established but disparate timelines within the same universe, and it fails to do that, the viewer has every right to be angry with what they got.

This isn't Inception. We just need to know how the fuck this leads to MG1.

 

[Zomba13]

That statement doesn't hold up at all. So movies with open, vague endings never feature a good story in your book?

Stories can be good with vauge endings or threads left open to interpretation. But when your "open to interpretation" plot ends up retconning a shit-ton of things that haven't changed in years and through many sequels and makes the audience question the point of the threads then it is bad.


The whole face changing passport bullshit can be summed up with Boss saying "Fuck that shit and fuck off Adam. Go play babysitter, I'm gonna go hang with EVA for a bit, she'll love this bike." and then Boss goes off and find EVA or does whatever because he's fucking BIG BOSS and doesn't need no shitty passport or face change to go places, especially when "he's" already been found.

 

[JayEH]

That statement doesn't hold up at all. So movies with open, vague endings never feature a good story in your book?

Well this is a vague ending in the last game of 28 year series that muddles the canon of the entire series.

 

[Xiraiya]

I just noticed in the ending that on the passport it says Venom was born in 1932. That would make him 3 years older than Big Boss. Nothing substantial just found it to be an interesting detail.

Is it always the same though? Because that makes me wonder, if you make an older looking avatar, if it changes the birthdate based on skin or whatever.

Because this (my avatar) is not the face of a man in 1984 who was born in 1932.

...But that would make the character 52, which is kind of amusing since there was a whole thing about a soldier being numbered 25 who might have been Venom, along with the 2+2=5 thing.

 

[GodzillaDB]

You people really need to stop treating Venom like he is a real character, he isn't, Venom is YOU. That is why he doesn't talk much or actually make many decisions, he is the player's avatar inserted into the MG universe. What Venom feels at any given moment is whatever you feel at that moment.

Again, I believe the avatar-esque nature of Venom Snake was incompetently handled from a seasoned designer. Valve Corporation beats that "silent protagonist" drum louder than anyone else and it has always been a severe handicap for story-driven projects in my eyes, like Half-Life and Portal, as it halts any character-building banter that could've occurred with other cast members. I still enjoy those titles and accept them; however, we're ultimately stuck with Venom Snake who does express his own thoughts and actions outside of the player's control. If he was merely meant to be a vessel to my own volition, how come my desire to pull the trigger on Skull Face isn't accepted as a valid choice? Why couldn't I willingly shatter the ashes of generic soldiers to the heartless sea? Those are several instances where I believe player input should've been factored, especially for those that desired to make him into the "oni" referenced upon the pre-release trailers. Since avatar or silent protagonists are supposed to severe as "blank canvases" for developers, I believe it's a lazy scapegoat that avoids injecting a bloodly personality behind a "three-dimensional" figure since it would be "stepping on the toes" of players. We're tasking with having to do their job and, thus, we have to splash own feelings onto an empty shell and the game returns the favor by never recognizing that in end. The doppelganger twist was nothing more than an excuse to tack on customization features from MGO3 and an awful attempt to recreate the meta-commentary, player reveal explored effectively with Raiden (MGS2).

About BB and FOXHOUND... Doesn't Ocelot tell BB to change his face before he rides off in his motorcycle? I know he looks "normal" again by the time of MGS4, but then again he was revived and rebuilt using parts grafted from Solidus. Is it possible that BB completely changed his appearance in the way Ocelot suggested after he rode off on his motorcycle, and thus the people at FOXHOUND didn't recognize him?

I believe Ocelot was simply making a suggestion at the time since Big Boss was heading underground. Since he was supposedly building his own nation elsewhere while Diamond Dogs screwed around on center stage, I'm sure the legendary soldier exploited his status while recruiting other mercenaries albeit on a smaller scale. Getting his own facial surgery or life-like mask would probably be out of his immediate access if it didn't happen prior to his escape anyway. Additionally, official artwork primarily acknowledges his "trench coat" from his time at FOXHOUND onward. I'm actually a little surprised we never saw Yoji Shinkawa illustrations depicting him in his merc suits for Outer Heaven (Venom) and Zanzibar Land. In the end, the conversation piece was just a dull fourth-wall wink similar to Raiden looking at the player's dog-tag in MGS2: Sons of Liberty.

 

[Neiteio]

Well this is a vague ending in the last game of 28 year series that muddles the canon of the entire series.

Kojima planting questions that will only be answered in his tell-all memoir, "Did You Rike it: Your Tears Are My Bidet: A Book By Hideo Kojima."

 

[Owlowiscious]

Ok so I have missions 1-50 done except 40, 48 and 49.
I did side mission 150, secure quiet.

Are there any big story beats I'm missing? I never saw a "end of chapter 2" and I never saw Paz I heard she was in this game. An uh, even the OP says it, but there no way to get Quiet as a buddy again?

Hm and I think I just saw a post saying Venom isn't Big Boss? I guess I missed that story part too. How do I get that?

 

[JayEH]

Ok so I have missions 1-50 done except 40, 48 and 49.
I did side mission 150, secure quiet.

Are there any big story beats I'm missing? I never saw a "end of chapter 2" and I never saw Paz I heard she was in this game. An uh, even the OP says it, but there no way to get Quiet as a buddy again?

there's no more substantial story stuff. Go to the medical platform second or third level you'll see a door you can enter for paz.

Edit:

Ummm....the venom stuff is mission 46.

 

[Zomba13]

Ok so I have missions 1-50 done except 40, 48 and 49.
I did side mission 150, secure quiet.

Are there any big story beats I'm missing? I never saw a "end of chapter 2" and I never saw Paz I heard she was in this game. An uh, even the OP says it, but there no way to get Quiet as a buddy again?

Get quiet back via PC mod (no idea if it still works the same on the latest patch)

Check youtube for episode 51

Check the medical platform for Paz and do the "wandering Mother Base Soldier" side-ops.

 

[thetrin]

Ok so I have missions 1-50 done except 40, 48 and 49.
I did side mission 150, secure quiet.

Are there any big story beats I'm missing? I never saw a "end of chapter 2" and I never saw Paz I heard she was in this game. An uh, even the OP says it, but there no way to get Quiet as a buddy again?

Hm and I think I just saw a post saying Venom isn't Big Boss? I guess I missed that story part too. How do I get that?

You never saw Paz? Did you ever visit your medical platform? Do the wandering Mother Base soldiers side-ops to get more from her.

Did you play Mission 46: Truth? That's the actual ending in the game, then watch Episode 51 on either Youtube or on the Collector's Edition Blu Ray.

 

[The Silver]

I really can't accept Venom as BB or Kojima telling me that I'm Big Boss simply because neither of us own a trenchcoat, nice try Kojima but no dice.

 

[Owlowiscious]

Oh and the first thread before the game came out said there was a Quiet torture scene where you hit buttons or something, never saw that.

 

[Neiteio]

You never saw Paz? Did you ever visit your medical platform? Do the wandering Mother Base soldiers side-ops to get more from her.

Did you play Mission 46: Truth? That's the actual ending in the game, then watch Episode 51 on either Youtube or on the Collector's Edition Blu Ray.

Sounds like he did play M46. He said he did 1-50, except for the three he listed.

 

[Zomba13]

Oh and the first thread before the game came out said there was a Quiet torture scene where you hit buttons or something, never saw that.

Nope. No torture scene against Venom in this game. Which sucks. Torture (or at least button mashing through strenuous task) sequences are like, MGS staple.

 

[Neiteio]

Nope. No torture scene against Venom in this game. Which sucks. Torture (or at least button mashing through strenuous task) sequences are like, MGS staple.

Scrolling through your staff to quarantine the Kikongo speakers was torture. ;-)