D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Kojima says a lot of things though.
I think people saw BS from that answer from a mile away, specially since this was a backtrack from him saying that it was to get cosplay.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
I think people saw BS from that answer from a mile away, specially since this was a backtrack from him saying that it was to get cosplay.
The way I see it, the player's involvement is the "battlefield narrative," and that's all the meta-narrative symbolism is acknowledging: your skill and ingenuity overcame the challenges crafted for you by Kojima. The rest of Venom's story is Venom's own (or in other words, Kojima's). Like I said earlier, Venom idolizes BB and gives him the benefit of the doubt until the expendability of himself and his men can no longer be denied (the mirror smash, rejecting his fate as Solid Snake closes in on him). The player can see what Venom doesn't, though, knowing the downward trajectory of BB and those who follow. The betrayal is immediate for the player, but in the moment Venom trusts in a higher plan. A good man led astray, then. Perhaps this explains his own demonic decline as suggested by the "oni" look after the time skip. He enabled a madman who, it should have been apparent, was chewing people up and spitting them out.
Storm Raider
Banned
Game was amazing! I very fresh take on the series, and the gameplay is phenomenal.
Crazy how the most 'next gen' game to me is on last gen platforms.
GodzillaDB
Member
If I'm not mistaken, Kojima already considers Peace Walker to be the true fifth installment in the series. Several concept images were commissioned that had it labeled as such, but Konami ultimately vetoed the idea since they wanted main "numerical" entries on home consoles.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I finished the game too. I have to say, watching the deleted 51 scene made me appreciate the entirety even more.
The game stumbles. It doesn't have the tightness of the previous games and I miss it. But I liked the conclusion and what he did with it. It also explained nicely the last post-credits scene in MGS4.
And I get how Big Boss Survived the events of the original Metal Gears. And I liked the explanation.
How Eli and Psycho-Mantis ended up together as we saw them in Shadow Moses in MGS1. That makes sense too. Psycho-Mantis was always this random wild card who was outrageous out of place compared to the others.
MGS4 is the true ending. MGSV is a prequel. It ties up some ends but the end of everything is MGS4. It's when BB and SS stories get concluded.
The game stumbles. It doesn't have the tightness of the previous games and I miss it. But I liked the conclusion and what he did with it. It also explained nicely the last post-credits scene in MGS4.
And I get how Big Boss Survived the events of the original Metal Gears. And I liked the explanation.
How Eli and Psycho-Mantis ended up together as we saw them in Shadow Moses in MGS1. That makes sense too. Psycho-Mantis was always this random wild card who was outrageous out of place compared to the others.
MGS4 is the true ending. MGSV is a prequel. It ties up some ends but the end of everything is MGS4. It's when BB and SS stories get concluded.
Serpens007
Member
Really ? They felt more clear to me than other games. Maybe too clear.
During the tape your referring to I don't believe Zero tells Miller about project Venom racing, all he tells him is that he (Zero) has Big Boss's best interests at heart and that Miller will be alerted if Big Boss awakens with the code phrase we hear at the beginning of the game. I am going purely off memory so this could all be incorrect.
real_slime
Banned
I just did the Truth ending mission (by skipping as much of it as possible obviously).
Anyway, this game was okay I guess. Way too long, lots of unnecessary and time-consuming gameplay elements, story was a flat mess. Had some good missions in there.
Anyway, this game was okay I guess. Way too long, lots of unnecessary and time-consuming gameplay elements, story was a flat mess. Had some good missions in there.
Quiet's exposure is nothing new to the series, the FACT there is even an explanation means she got more than anyone else did previously, one issue with MGSV is the fact in the past Kojima has always had that kind of inappropriate fan servicey Japanese humor where it's like "Oh her breasts and/or butt are accidentally all up in your face, Oh Snake! You dirty bastard don't stare it's awwwkwaaad! /sitcom" And that's why it's never been offensive to me, fan service is the worst but in a corny "Oh you!" context that it's generally presented in when it comes to older games, there's no point being upset about it as you cartwheel around holding your crotch.Kojima says a lot of things though.
So when it comes to Quiet there are two issue here, there is actually some reasoning behind the way she is, and some logic behind the way she acts towards Snake as they form a bond over time, that's great, I enjoy it, I get it, it's a good subplot. However he tries to pull his old tricks WHILE portraying this more unfortunate context for her and it causes a weird issue where it becomes too easy to dismiss the character entirely and makes some moments kind of creepy.
The other issue is, that has all been exasperated by current climate around female characters in gaming and new levels of exposure MGS achieved with mainstream audiences (MGSV is a lot of people's first real Metal Gear experience) which then causes all these people who have very little information or knowledge of the series to look at this and think/assume the absolute worst and react strongly to Quiet in a negative way.
I don't think Kojima meant it to come off that way, his sense of humor in regards to fan service has always come from a very "This is dumb fun" place and I totally get that, the seriousness of MGSV and Quiet however means he shouldn't have been trying to do his same old tricks with her with Camera angles and cutscenes, I like pretty much all of the cutscenes she's in overall, it's just the way they're shot shouldn't be so on the nose in regards to her expose. I feel like Kojima has misunderstood/lost touch with the fanbase in multiple ways with MGSV and that's what it all comes down to.
I had multiple lengthy discussions about this with my girlfriend as she has been watching my journey through MGSV and has seen pretty much all of the game and optional stuff, basically her thoughts came down to "There is nothing I find wrong with her or her story, she's actually surprisingly endearing and I feel for her situation, my biggest complaint aside from some of the camera angles at times being forced on you is the fact that parts of her outfit would get so uncomfortable, it's not even about how revealing it is, just it's practicality"
Srey Plaughtered
Member
You're right on that. Ocelot was the one who told Kaz about Venom sometime after he was rescued.
One thing I've learned is to never trust his words easily now. Still a lot of respect for the the guy.
Nah breh, Kojima gets shit for Quiet because its blatantly fetishistic masturbation fodder when it comes to the look and cutscene appeal of the character Kojima knew exactly what he was doing. He designed a character he found sexually appealing and hoped other people would find sexually appealing (which is fine up to a point), but no misunderstood message to be had.
Srey Plaughtered
Member
I bet Kojima wouldn't even have said the words and deeds stuff it it wasn't for what you said about the female characters thing, he just needed for people to look forward to burst later with their opinions than at that point, probably. Either way it's blown too much out of proportion. In fact my opinion of Quiet's pretty much the same as your girlfriend's. Got used to her behavior after a while and now all that is just part of her character, just like how Huey always acts ignorant and innocent. It's just their character, the more you look into it the more confused you get because there really isn't much more to it. Best thing to do is to just accept it and play another mission than wondering about what it means in the grand scheme of things.
That said, Kojima still says a lot lol.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
Kojima isn't a native english speaker and interpreting that quote literally assumes a certain understanding of context and difference in languages that 99% of the people going after that quote lack.
I don't even like Quiet all that much, but let's not take rough translations, especially on Twitter of all places, like they're gospel.
I don't even like Quiet all that much, but let's not take rough translations, especially on Twitter of all places, like they're gospel.
Talking about a theme doesn't mean that they are properly explored. Do I need to link to both mine and SuperBunnyHops's analysis videos to explain why the story and themes are a hot mess?
But in what way is the player betrayed?
People wanted to and expected to play as Big Boss. And thanks to this crazy plan, that's what happened. Their created self is made into Big Boss. "I am you, and you are me." That's pretty sweet. There's a reason Venom smiles when he receives this revelation. Even the lie that makes it possible is a fulfillment of the fans' expectation that Kojima will try to pull one over on them, the expectation that leads to all the absolutely insane theorizing preceding the release of every MGS game.
While I suspect the irony of the Venom plan that Big Boss goes along with is intentional, it's not meant to be a slight against the player. That revelation is a laudatory moment through the fourth wall, crediting the player for their role in shaping the Big Boss legend. It does nothing to make the player feel personally betrayed by the character.
I felt it in the sense that I cared about Venom, so by proxy I felt betrayed on his behalf, even if Venom himself didn't fully realize the hand he'd been dealt. That's what I mean. It's one reason I really liked the M46 ending.
I keep wondering who the fuck let this dude join Foxhound. Cause Foxhound is an American joint right? I feel like Big Boss is probably a known war criminal. Zero was brain dead by the time Big would've join back up, so maybe good ol' DARPA Chief greased some wheels, or Ocelot would have some connections.
GameWhisperer
Banned
I feel I need to read a story recap of the series..... I know some of the characters like eli are characters later in other games but cannot piece it all together.
Christ, yeah I would say you really do need a recap, he should be like the character least necessary to need a reminder of.
The Silver
Member
He applied like a normal person.
When asked why he looks a lot like BB he said "Big Boss has a horn and a robot arm, couldn't be me!", the rest is history.
One day he told Snake who he really was over a few beers, "get this Solid, those idiot politcians don't know that I'M really Big Boss!........oops" and that's why he knows.
Hmmmm, eh seems legit.
Now I imagine Big Boss at company parties causally mingling.
I thought it was kind of implied that while Big Boss was a known legendary Mercenary, a lot of his dealings and his turning his back on the US, building bases, Outer Heaven and MSF and all that stuff were kept much more secretive and under wraps than it seemed so his reputation was still as such that America was still willing to use him to their own ends by having him command Foxhound.
My biggest issue is the "supposed" timeskip of Venom not aging a day when he should be an old man by the time OH happens, I kind of feel like with the recent new hints of possibly everything in this game being a lie or a hallucination and so on, it was probably either Venom seeing himself as he did in TPP or symbolism, it's too glaring of a mistake.
We have no idea how old Venom actually was compared to Big Boss - it's perfectly plausible that he was around 15 years younger; with Big Boss himself not visibly aging between GZ and TPP, Venom being similarly unchanged between TPP and MG1 is the least of the scenario's problems.
Would be plausible enough, it's the same world Solidus became president in; after all. Asking for an official explanation would likely just give us a wave of the 'hypnosis/information control/nanomachines magic wand, anyway.
My whole argument was the fact I remember Big Boss being old and grey in both MG and MG2, but in reality all I can find on MG1 Big Boss was this art
Which honestly you could pretty easily pass off as Venom as he looks noticeably different to the "Old Man" big boss we know in MG2. The horn might just not even exist in reality.
I'm beginning to believe the "Snake doesn't talk because its not the real big Boss" theory because the actual Big Boss talked quite a bit in GZ (from what I recall), and when you actually see him in TPP. Still kind of pisses me off though, because if Venom thinks he's Snake, shouldn't he act like it too? Unless the "phantom pain" or whatever leaves him "dazed and confused" so to speak, like he feels hollow inside. Something that feels like it should be there but isn't...
Also. how do people not tell Big Boss and Venom apart when they are doing their own thing? Venom has the arm and horn obviously, but his face is also way more scarred up then that of Big Boss.
Also. how do people not tell Big Boss and Venom apart when they are doing their own thing? Venom has the arm and horn obviously, but his face is also way more scarred up then that of Big Boss.
Again, he merely pointed out that the "five" in the title is written with the Roman numeral. That doesn't mean that he doesn't regard the game as "Metal Gear Solid Five".
Gah.
Yes, in the sense that it's written with the Roman numeral this time around.
It's still "five". It's pronounced "five", not "vee".
They don't go into it very much but Venom implies very early on that he's barely sure if anything is true, they put him through so much shit while he was in a coma that it's completely fucked over his sense of reality, the other thing is too the horn and all that stuff sort of implies his ability to properly process emotions and respond and stuff like that is damaged, or atleast that's what I felt Kojima was going for rather than being like "HEY YOU CAN'T FEEL JACK SHIT EXCEPT MAYBE SOMETIMES"
Ishmael on the other hand was way more talkative, on point and ready to get shit done and keep you alive, like a true boss.
I really think the Paz story is a proxy for understanding what they aren't telling you about Venom, the things Ocelot says in some of those scene seem REALLY targeted to Venom even though context leads you to think he's talking about Paz.
He doesn't act like Big Boss because he isn't Big Boss. Even if he believes he is BB, he is still a different person. I do think the confusion plays a part in that too.
As for the second question, they could easily pull any bullshit out of their asses to explain that. Kojima tried to explain far more far fetched problems in the series, lol.
Maybe he changed the arm to something more life like, managed to remove the horn and scars by surgery? It doesn't really matter all that much. The fact that it's impossible for them to look exactly like each other even after so many years is far more problematic. Plastic surgery can only go so far.
Kojima said, "Not MGS5... MGSV." Yes, we all know "V" is the Roman numeral for "5." But Kojima was drawing attention to the "V," suggesting it's meaningful and makes this different than your typical numbered installment. We now know the "V" stands for "Venom," so if this is different from the typical numbered installment, what is it? One possibility is Venom's side story.
Venom is a different personality altogether. He may think he's Big Boss, but his personality is still his own. And when you compare Ishmael and Ahab side by side, the difference is day and night. You have the charismatic, extroverted, aggressive Type A personality of Ishmael, and the moody, introverted, passive Type B personality of Ahab. Onlookers probably just chalk it up to a change of temperament, a man haunted by the events of the last decade. Remember, nobody had seen BB for nine years. People can change in that amount of time. (As anyone with friends who have mellowed out since high school can attest)
Do you mean during the events of TPP? It's been nine years since anyone saw BB, so they'd probably just chalk it up to incidents like GZ. If you mean during the events of MG1, limited access to either person is what I'd guess.Azzanadra said:
There's definitely a time skip. We see the Diamond Dogs logo in the mirror turn into the Outer Heaven logo.
As others have said, The Medic may be younger in the first place. But even if he weren't, it's possible that his fake face and hair might not "age" the same way.
About BB and FOXHOUND... Doesn't Ocelot tell BB to change his face before he rides off in his motorcycle? I know he looks "normal" again by the time of MGS4, but then again he was revived and rebuilt using parts grafted from Solidus. Is it possible that BB completely changed his appearance in the way Ocelot suggested after he rode off on his motorcycle, and thus the people at FOXHOUND didn't recognize him?
Nah, because then Snake wouldn't recognize him in MG 2.
You people really need to stop treating Venom like he is a real character, he isn't, Venom is YOU. That is why he doesn't talk much or actually make many decisions, he is the player's avatar inserted into the MG universe. What Venom feels at any given moment is whatever you feel at that moment.
Is it possible he changed his face back after MG1 but before MG2?
Having to answer plot questions with vague suppositions and questioning the author's intent is not indicative of a good story.
Yes, the fact he chose "V" over "5" is apparently meaningful. I imagine that alludes to something like the codename "Venom", or maybe the Ingsoc logo.
But no, it doesn't suggest the game is different from your typical numbered installment. It's still pronounced "five", so it is "Metal Gear Solid Five".
Srey Plaughtered
Member
He doesn't change his face, just his name.
Having to answer plot questions with vague suppositions and questioning the author's intent is not indicative of a good story.
Yup. At this point we might as well make up a third Big Boss.
No because he was trained by Big Boss pre MG 1, so he must have seen a de-horned real face Big Boss before killing Venom.
He does talk, though. And he does make decisions. Some big too, like taking Sahalantropus to mother base to make a point or something. I also sure didn't decide to play with Quiet in the rain.
I respectfully disagree. While it's true his quiet demeanor allows the player to empathize on their own terms, Venom is still his own character. He makes choices the player may not make (i.e. HUEY!); he has opinions about stuff like how to handle Mother Base (low morale scene, "Sahelantropus is our history" scene, "make diamonds of their ashes" scene, etc); he reacts to things even if he seems conflicted or unsure about others. There's a difference between the constant mood being exuded by Venom as he sits there all world-weary and haunted, feelings that may not be shared by the player, and a character like, say, Link. The "player" part of the personality is the part that shapes the battlefield narrative, and this is what the game acknowledges by letting you take ownership of certain qualities, leaving your "fingerprint" in the form of a face, name and b-day. The battlefield narrative is one-half of the experience, the player half, while Venom's story is Kojima's half.
I still call it "Metal Gear Solid Five," but for the reasons I described I think of it as "Metal Gear Solid Venom."
The passport that BB is given has the Medic's photo on it, though. Why would he use a passport with a different face? I think Ocelot is telling him to change his face AND his name. But I'll let you guys hash this one out.
Anthony Soprano
Member
Any good missions that spawn you around tons of guys? I need to fulton 1,000 people somehow still (I think because wormholes don't count?) and do side objectives, then I'll be done with the trophies.
I kind of think it's both? It's a real character which is part of the fiction now, but it's also the player in a senser. The game does call it avatar. To me it feels more like a character created with the help of the player.
Srey Plaughtered
Member
Wow, I had forgotten about that bit. So there was just one Big Boss i.e. Venom till proper Big Boss got his face back for whatever reason. He kinda became Venom's phantom now that I think of it.
Venom isn't me. You are right in that this was Kojima's intention, but he failed horribly in the execution. Up to the twist we think we are playing as Big Boss, who is already a predefined character, for one but that's not even the main problem.
The main problem is that even the game can't decide if the player is supposed to be Venom or not. We get moments like Skullface's jeep ride mixed in the Medic's (not ours) guilt over not getting the bomb out, which is HIS guilt after all, for we played Big Boss in Ground Zeroes, not the Medic.
EDIT: And as others have pointed above, more often than not Venom makes his own choices and statements, without the input of the player.
And speaking more broadly, silent protagonists need to go away. The only games I can stand them in are Zelda games and Souls games. Why is it that I feel more immersed in Geralt and Adam Jensen than any Bethesda or old D&D game?
Various Artists
Banned
I am drunk but its a good thing MGS4 Big Boss didn't have scars on his face. Imagine the conversation then.