Eh I dunno, the scene is pretty powerful if you have not played that game, compared to any MGSV cutscene, you can feel the emotions of the three guys, instead of Stare into the Ether Snake
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
Eh I dunno, the scene is pretty powerful if you have not played that game, compared to any MGSV cutscene, you can feel the emotions of the three guys, instead of Stare into the Ether Snake
If we entertain this, then the "building the legend of Big Boss" thing goes right out the window. Either he's an important contributor or he's a ghost. He can't be both.
But they are, literally, unknown. At least as far as the audience can tell. Several characters who should have intimate, immediate knowledge of these events never speak or hint about such knowledge, even though many opportunities call for it.
It's not exactly clear from my point of view. But I almost sure she said to the operator to wait because she has to kill, first, the patient close to the target, to not leave witness in the scene. The close patient it's Venom.
For me, Spec Ops is an example of a good story that fails so hard because everything else about the game does nothing to complement the story.
The story tries so hard to tell you that something is happening but the gameplay doesn't give a shit about the story. It's very jarring.
The story tries so hard to tell you that something is happening but the gameplay doesn't give a shit about the story. It's very jarring.
guys guys
This actually confirms it.
Because they switch personas after the ambulance crashes.
The horn is not visble behind the bandages.
Checkmate.
I don't think so. He is an important contributor in that he does effectively help found Outer Heaven and covers for Big Boss - but from history's perspective, he's a ghost, because he's stuck forever in Big Boss's shadow. It's a classic "history is written by the victor" story. In the mid-80s, Venom is carrying Big Boss's standard, but he is killed at Outer Heaven and is struck from the annals of history - becoming a ghost. (Also nobody knew he was there before, so he was still a ghost, he was just doing productive shit.)
Isn't there a tape where Zero directly tells Miller about the Venom plan?
I'm sure it's there - perhaps it happens just after Venom wakes up - but I think it still explained Kaz's behaviour towards him.
Stereogatari
Banned
That explains why she never kills him after she is brought back to base.
SJRB
Gold Member
I don't know man, even basic gameplay gets more and more brutal as the game progresses. Especially the close range takedowns turn into insane executions in the later parts of the game.
The gameplay itself is rather mediocre, no doubt. But I feel that the overall atmosphere and how things slowly spiral out of control are very well done. The setting and environment gets more gritty as you progress as well.
Damn I should replay Spec Ops, haha. Just play it on easy mode so enemies go down quickly.
Playing on easy would definitely make the game better. It's designed to be that way, though. Generic as fuck to play.
Berserker976
Member
She definitely thinks Venom is Big Boss. She was radioing in to let her commander (Skull Face?) know that she'd have to take care of the patient in the next bed after she finishes with Venom. It was a subtle way of informing the player that there's another person in the room.
At this point in time Venom looks exactly like Big Boss, while Ishmael is in costume. Also, if she knew Ishmael was Big Boss then her motives would make even less sense in the rest of the game. It's already weird that she's seeking revenge against Venom when Ishmael was the one that did literally everything in the hospital scene, but if she knew Ishmael was Big Boss why would she be going after Venom.
Also, if she knew, then the people who sent her would have known, and Skull Face clearly didn't know Venom wasn't Big Boss.
That's another angle.
Hmmmm ....
"I can't complete my mission because this guy isn't my target"
"I'm just gonna chill and pose for him because he's a badass"
Edit:
"Then I'm gonna sacrifice myself to save his life out of pity"
Roni
Gold Member
The legend of Big Boss is a separate thing entirely from Big Boss himself.
Venom is us building a legend in the name of Big Boss. No one should ever know it was someone else.
That's right if we extend the game to covering what it implies, that Venom goes on to build up the fortress in MG 1, but staying constricted to the events actually depicted almost nothing gets mentioned again. The real solution would be to depict events mentioned in passing from MGS 1 and 2, primarily, or to show Venom meeting and recruiting all the mercenaries from MG 1.
On top of this, there's weird reverse things actually in the game. Like Liquid talked about his time in the Middle East, but in this game he's encountered in Africa. Ocelot has a love of torture, but in this game he shies away from unnecessary pain. Opportunities to build on established traits oddly inverted.
Stereogatari
Banned
Maybe she is trying to find out real BB's location.
Storm Raider
Banned
"Beautiful Mirage" is a beautifully fantastic song.
Glad I bought the OST.
Glad I bought the OST.
Too bad she didn't tell skullface that wasn't the real boss.
We need to tweet the actress, she might know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36xm1LpBkB0
So, we've been discussing there is a before and after in the scene, however, after watching a third time, it all seems to happen in 1995.
The before is probably just Venom taking time to rest and his "life as Big Boss" passes before his eyes before he goes and dies to Solid Snake. Before has the tweezers and bulelts, and the bionic arm is bloody.
So, we've been discussing there is a before and after in the scene, however, after watching a third time, it all seems to happen in 1995.
The before is probably just Venom taking time to rest and his "life as Big Boss" passes before his eyes before he goes and dies to Solid Snake. Before has the tweezers and bulelts, and the bionic arm is bloody.
I would definitely agree the final scene is too truncated. They should have made the link to MG1 far more overt. It feels like it's trying really hard to be confusing/obtuse in the final scene before VS walks into the shadows. I think it's reasonable to go by what the game implies, though. The series has implied plenty of important plot points in the past. (... Or maybe it hasn't. And that was always part of the problem. Good stories do it, anyway. It allows more freedom for meaning and discussion.)
I think the Liquid and Ocelot things can be 'explained away':
- Liquid does spend time in the Middle East. Literally one day/evening during the OKBZero mission (lol). Srs, there are so many things mentioned in the games, he probably spends time there elsewhere. Where is the Episode 51 island located actually?
- I think the Ocelot angle is covered fine – in an MGSV tape he says torture is all about precise, directed use of threats or pain to get the information you want (how he approaches Huey). He tells Kaz to stop when Kaz is getting bloodthirsty. That's not what it's about for him. But when we see him next (in canon) in MGS1, he is not being himself. From MGS1 he is being a spy, in-character acting as a bloodthirsty intel operative. He "loves torture" from MGS1 onwards because he is playing a violent, vitriolic character. A villain. (Not because he really does enjoy it.)
This does not work because after BB assaults her, and she wounds BB with the knife she goes straight for Venom instead of BB.
The target was Big Medic, or quiet just sucks at assasination attempts, since she ignores the main target for a guy that can barely move.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Why not? You can be important to history but never acknowledged for your part.
Although it'd be difficult to give a perfect example since the idea is they would've been forgotten, it was many years after the fact that Vasili Arkhipov's part in saving the world from total thermonuclear annihilation came to light.
Yeah.
She definitely is more eager to kill Venom than the "other guy".
After she stabs him, she completely disregards him.
Medic: "She doesn't know. Fake it till you make it baby"
Any particular reasoning? Spec Ops actually shows MEN BECOMING DEMONS, it actually shows PTSD and the negatives to war. The performances and characters in Spec Ops are great too
MGSV doesn't compare. The writing and voice acting is shit tier in comparison.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Agreed but , technically speaking, he's playing a part in MGS3 as well. He's a triple spy then too, after all. Regardless, the 20 year gap between 3 and V could easily account for him cooling down on the cockiness front. He still has exactly the same crush on Big Boss.
You know, I'm not sure we ever saw the "real" Ocelot till V and even then I'm not entirely sure if that's really him or not. .
DrunkShogun
Member
Still wish they had eva, gray fox and para medic in the game. Dlc based on them would be worth the money, just to see the interaction with big boss. eva and para medic would have some explaining to do.
I want sigint in the game to see what bloody explanation he had for all he did XD
Inferno313
Banned
MGSV isn't all that concerned with men becoming demons though, that was trailer stuff. MGSV's bigger themes are, revenge and the "phantom pain" that it leaves you with, american imperialism and the power of language as information control, and the figures in the shadow of history: those that play major roles in the shaping of the world but are ultimately left out of the history books.
And yet he's now gone from my Mother Base... Maybe because of the recent patch?
Guys... "V" is "five". The fact Kojima used a Roman numeral doesn't magically make the game a side story.
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
Anyone know what triggers the search team to kill the prisoner in Backup, Back Down? It seems like the randomly kill him when I'm moving up the goat path. It's getting annoying.
Berserker976
Member
Right. The fact that it's a side story is what makes it a side story.
Actually, this is key to "building the legend of Big Boss." If Venom is known, it wouldn't be Big Boss' legend. It would be Venom's. He had to be a phantom, the man himself forgotten, so that only the actions remain and they are attributed to BB. That's how the legend grows.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Nailed it.
-Alert
-Taking too long
What I do is spawn in the LZ nearby with ddawg + a vehicle, go to town on dem bitches, fulton 1 vehicle then rescuel all prisoners, fuck the mission.
That said I managed to extract most vehicles on time, triggered multiple alerts and still was able to rescue all the prisoners in the EXTREME version of the mission.
ironically, mgsv fails the nail any of those themes.
Kojima himself made a point of noting he deliberately titled it "MGSV" instead of "MGS5." He felt the use of Roman numeral was an important distinction to make. It works on multiple levels. You can see it as "fifth numbered installment," but you can also see it as "Metal Gear Solid Venom."
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
There's no mention of the body double scheme in the Kaz-Zero tape. Zero makes it look like it's actually Big Boss. He's stringing Kaz along.
I think you failed to nail the meaning of irony
i'll describe the defintion of irony to you the same way my grandfather did to me : irony is when you shoot bullets but they heal people or touching a piece of iron that but it feels like cotton
Yes, he picked the Roman numeral on purpose. It's still the Roman numeral. It's still "five".
Of course. I understand that it can be that. But I think Kojima is suggesting it's not meant to be seen purely as "MGS5" when he calls attention to the fact that he very deliberately used the Roman numeral when in the past he had used standard numbers. He was insinuating that the true meaning of the title lies in the exact letter he used.
I love MGSV and despite it's flaws I think it's possibly one of the greatest games of all time in the state it is, but it could have been greater.
After listening to Giantbomb spoilercast, I'm kind of in the same mind set that Jeff is in that MGSV and MGS5 Should have been two games telling Venom and then Big Boss's stories, and going by the trailers theme of revenge and demonism (particularly those that Kojima did himself) It just feels like there is half of a story here, and so many things about this game's creation still don't add up.
I mean it was well over a year (maybe even 2) ago by now I believe that Kojima straight up said the game was basically done and they were just tweaking things, which makes the weird format of things like Chapter 2 and cutscene story threads that (at this stage) don't seem to lead anywhere and so many things like that, also the launch trailer that Kojima made having "Zero to Omega" in it when that stuff was no longer in the game, it's like none of that stuff adds up or jives with the idea that this game had been completed years ago and the leftover time was simply polishing it. So with the lack of logic there and some of the theories, it was easy for me to buy into "There is a whole other chapter hidden in here" because of what I had known/remembered from other time.
But it is what it is and that's still okay, disappointing things don't negate the good that is there in my opinion.
After listening to Giantbomb spoilercast, I'm kind of in the same mind set that Jeff is in that MGSV and MGS5 Should have been two games telling Venom and then Big Boss's stories, and going by the trailers theme of revenge and demonism (particularly those that Kojima did himself) It just feels like there is half of a story here, and so many things about this game's creation still don't add up.
I mean it was well over a year (maybe even 2) ago by now I believe that Kojima straight up said the game was basically done and they were just tweaking things, which makes the weird format of things like Chapter 2 and cutscene story threads that (at this stage) don't seem to lead anywhere and so many things like that, also the launch trailer that Kojima made having "Zero to Omega" in it when that stuff was no longer in the game, it's like none of that stuff adds up or jives with the idea that this game had been completed years ago and the leftover time was simply polishing it. So with the lack of logic there and some of the theories, it was easy for me to buy into "There is a whole other chapter hidden in here" because of what I had known/remembered from other time.
But it is what it is and that's still okay, disappointing things don't negate the good that is there in my opinion.
People know what roman numerals are. But Kojima doesn't really regard V as 5 himself, so even if it had to be regarded as MGS5 to allow for it's development, ultimately he doesn't see it as MGS5, which I honestly think makes a lot of sense given the situation.
I've never had them successfully kill that prisoner in any of my runs, the only prisoner who consistently dies in that mission for me is the woman who runs out into the desert and gets run over by a tank.
Love Deterrence
Member
We'll make Heller drinking responses from their sadness... Take them into the Pachinko future with us.
A President Heller gif to our posters in salt... even post-release.
We are Disappointed Fans.
Eh I'm just pissed (mostly at myself) for getting fiddled with the trailers, I can live with the story as is (Still in camp #FailStory).
I've got my money's worth with each and every MGS, rage with the latest patch and FOB bullshit, MGO will be fun while it lasts.
I'll check to see if he's still there on mine once I get a chance - if it's something to do with the patch, maybe he resigned/was fired? Weird to think Kojima himself might be patched out of the game as well...
It would have never worked out if she wasn't ashamed of her words and deeds after you revealed the secret reason for your exposure. It's time to move on.
GodzillaDB
Member
I wasn't dismissing the notion of Venom being an obvious contribution to the "brand" of Big Boss, but rather the notable failure in the long-term narrative to express awareness of the decoy incident. I'm surprised Miller in particular never outed the plot prior to the Outer Heaven Uprising since he never had a reason to keep the legendary soldier in a positive light. The Phantom accepted his role under Big Boss so Kazuhira must've had a falling out with him because of that fact. However, I completely dismiss the meta-aspect of Venom serving as a avatar for the character despite Kojima's heavy-handed efforts to implement the idea. Phantom Pain depicts the weather-worn "Medic" enacting his own ideology outside of the player's control, particularly expressing remorse over his fallen comrades when his former mentor has evolved to a state of "throwing them under a bus" as you phrased it. I find it strangely awkward that he readily accepts his role as the doppelganger without feeling outraged for his fellow soldiers much less himself. I suppose the Cyprus hypnosis wore off it completely robbed Venom of all his emotion prior to listening to the truth tape. If I was supposed to feel betrayed, Venom manages to brush away the treachery with a smile.
I must agree that I never had an emotional response to the scene, but I do believe the game admirably placed its foot in the right direction, especially for an IP which held lackluster reception beforehand. It accomplishes much more by actually taking action whereas Phantom Pain never makes such a commitment to exploring the horror of war in an unfathomably visceral portrayal. Ultimately, I think "Big Boss" should've committed a blatant war crime at a minimum, whether inadvertently or otherwise, to definitively mark his evolution as an antagonist by the events of the Zanzibar Land Disturbance.
His action might've been despicable, but it doesn't really resonate emotionally since Venom Snake appears to accept his fate with a smirk. I wish we could've received one more "missing link" that explores Venom's reaction, preferably through rejection, to being manipulated as the pawn to building the legacy of Big Boss. However, I expect Kojima would've continued to beat around the bush in that area so someone else should hopefully tackle the task if the time ever comes.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Liquid could have gone to the Middle East after that, and Ocelot could be explained with the fact that this is the first game we see him behave normally around his allies. In every other game he's applying what he calls psychological warfare. It's useful for your enemies to think you're batshit crazy and obsessed.
I will concede that Ocelot was an exposition machine, with no purpose whatsoever except to support Venom's decisions and to help BB escape the hospital. That's it.
EDIT: As some guys here have highlighted, we should probably get used to Kojima not putting crucial events in MGS games. It has happened all the way since the first game. We didn't see the Patriots form, not even the Philosophers, we didn't see Philanthropy form, we didn't see Solid Snake get older, Raiden becoming essentially a cyborg, BB returning to Zero along Ocelot, etc, etc.
Well Kojima himself said it wasn't 5 but V.
Srey Plaughtered
Member
Statue of Limitation
Member
Whether the game is five or not makes no difference, its not like he's going to make 5