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[The Technomancer]

and honestly most "mainstream" nerd stuff has been around for decades. And all of the "accepted" things are pretty safe overall. Gaming is "accepted" now because of COD and the like (and phone games of course). Marvel is what's hot right now. Star Trek saw its recent boom with the blockbuster styled movies. And most of it is a very set formula.

Snarky protags, epic action, passable plots that don't require too much backstory.

This isn't a bad thing by no means (I have enjoyed all of the Marvel films of late because they do the one thing I want them to do; have superheros do cool shit) but it is what it is.

This is why some of the more obscure properties spend a long time as vaporware or never comes out.

This is also why actually reading comics is still niche. Certain genres of gaming are still niche or dying. And this is why anime/manga have such an uphill battle to be "accepted". A lot of stuff has to change and a lot of those changes would alienate the die hards and potentially end up not pleasing anyone. Kinda like the early Marvel films lol.

I don't think geek culture is assimilating..just that the long running properties have begun to be able to be adapted to appeal to the masses without pissing a lot of people off. And while those properties are big. They aren't the end all be all of geek culture. Not even close

Ehhhh, I don't know about that. Maybe if we're talking about the truly iconic stuff like Superman or Batman, but from what I've been told by people who lived through it in the 80s there was genuine social ostracization around "weird" stuff. Being that kid at school who liked horror movies or played D&D had real consequences. I think this really started to change in the 90s and by the time I was in high-school in the mid 2000s really no-one gave a fuck anymore about what you liked (hell our homecoming king was an avid Magic player). I usually say that I don't think the word "geek" means anything anymore because that social dynamic just doesn't exist, either everyone is a geek or no-one is, but you know, anime might be the last place where that still exists at that level. People may not be reading comics en masse, but the reaction to you telling people you're reading a comic book will be very different than it was in say, 1990

 

[EvilKatarn]

But they don't....

Look at the first page. People are proudly dismissing the entire thing. You can't deny that attitude is real. Seen it in real life, seen it on here.

 

[MHWilliams]

I'm coming from the perspective of someone who works in the Guest department of one of the largest anime conventions in the US: Otakon. I'm still an avid watcher of the form, mostly through Crunchyroll these days, though my anime watching is augmented with American TV and other services like Netflix, Amazon Instant, and Dramafever.

There something to be said about the fact that the perception of anime is generally out-putting to those in the mainstream. It's not just the occasional show like Anime De Training! EX, there's a growing number of shows focused on ecchi fanservice Testament of Sister New Devil, Asterisk War, Hackadoll, or Anti-Magic Academy. (Most of them based on the LN trend, which I'd argue isn't helping matters.)

There's also a number of shows that drop in the small bits of fanservice where they'd otherwise be quite palatable to to some. DanMachi is watchable, but my goddamn eyes roll up into my head whenever Hestia appears onscreen. Fairy Tail can't help itself with battle damage clothing. Shokugeki no Soma is a harder sell than say Yakitate Japan because of the fanservice, though at least they throw some male fanservice in there.

There's just a general bleed, where otherwise fine shows add bits here and there, ostensibly because they want to tap into those "whales" mentioned earlier in this thread.

That said, there's still always a solid number of series to offer up to potential fans. I find the issue is largely that those aren't the shows mentioned. Anime fans tend to offer up shows from the deep end of the pool, arguing that there are potentially great shows underneath the content the mainstream viewer may find objectionable. That may be true, but we're not starved for content these days. Why take a chance with an action series with extra fanservice that I don't enjoy, when I could watch The Flash, D-Day, or Man in the High Castle? It doesn't make sense.

If I'm trying to get someone into Kamen Rider or Sentai, I don't offer up a show that diverges heavily from the norms that they expect. I ease them into it. Maybe give them something like Faiz and then work my way deeper from there.

There's stuff like that. This season has:

Beautiful Bones (Crime)

The Perfect Insider (Crime)

Haikyuu! (Sports)

Which are solid starting points. Three shows that could be live-action with little issue. Then you turn up the heat a bit.

Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans (Sci-Fi Action)

Young Black Jack (Medical Drama)

World Trigger (Sci-Fi Action)

Durarara! (Mystery)

Osomatsu-san (Comedy)

Got some action here, but things are still somewhat grounded. These shows introduce certain frequent Japanese anime tropes to people. They acclimate you. From there you can expand outward.

But the ultimate idea isn't "I love this in its purest form, so that's what I'm showing to you because you should love it and you're wrong if you don't." It's "what can I offer them to eventually get them to the point I want? What bridges the gap?" I love Prison School, but yo... that's an acquired taste. Hell, even Nichijou is a hard sell to someone who doesn't watch anime. Understand that perhaps people will never get there, because let's be honest, Testament of Sister New Devil will never be mainstream anytime soon. If you love stuff like that, fine. But people have norms and they'll judge you the farther you deviate from them.

We need less of the backlash to change and a desire to hold onto to certain ideas and concepts that repeat themselves. That's less of an anime fandom problem and more of a fandom problem, but it's important to mention. Let people change things. If you want it to get bigger, the stuff you love will have to change and you have to allow that to happen instead of holding tight. That may mean a few less high-school girls with healthy assets; the medium will survive, trust me.

Or perhaps you don't care about outreach, you just want to enjoy what you enjoy. That's fine too. But the perception of anime as a whole won't really change until the industry decides to shift a bit and the fandom does a better job of reaching towards the mainstream.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I'll just chime in and say that I'm an avid anime watcher and frequent poster in the community OT, and yeah 'otaku' culture will have a long way to go before it's accepted mainstream. Nerds turning on nerds isn't unheard of, when one group elevates to socially acceptable it's not very surprising they start to look down on those that aren't. I've done it too, I'm no saint.

As things are currently, I watch anime regularly and only my closest friends know I do. There's like a whole screening process almost if we ever have a fellow friend/acquaintance who wants to get into anime where they ask one friend and they ask another and then eventually it leads to me and I recommend stuff based on what they like. But there's no way in hell I'll ever make it public or part of my identity that I watch anime. I don't deny it if someone finds out, but I downplay it. I'm ashamed of myself for hiding something I enjoy so thoroughly but I grew up in a family and social groups that judged me throughout my whole childhood when I was playing video games, and still do really, so I've learned to just not make this information readily available to them.

 

[patapuf]

It's a shame that people will gladly ignore masterpieces such as Berserk, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Yamato 2199 because they fear they'll be labeled nerds if they might like anime. You don't have to sink into the deep end, you can just enjoy good shows.

My impressio is that Yamato is the only one of these three that can be considered niche?

Beserk and JoJo have been relevant for years now.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

If otaku are outcasts, what are bronies?

Morlocks.

 

[EvilKatarn]

My impressio is that Yamato is the only one of these three that can be considered niche?

Beserk and JoJo have been relevant for years now.

I'd say they're all niche in the west. Popular among those who are into manga and anime but stuff like Death Note, Naruto and Evangelion are ones I'd say are actually 'relevant' in how much recognition they get.

 

[The Technomancer]

Understand that perhaps people will never get there, because let's be honest, Testament of Sister New Devil will never be mainstream anytime soon. If you love stuff like that, fine. But people have norms and they'll judge you the farther you deviate from them.

My curiosity got the better of me

Basara Tojo is a Year 1 high school student. He was a member of a hero clan and grew up in a hidden rural village. Basara wields the formerly cursed sword Brynhildr. Basara is the only son of Jin Tōjō, formerly acknowledged to be the 'Strongest Hero' in the village. As Jin's son, great things were expected of Basara and he was unusually strong even as a youth.

Okay yup

He caused a great crater to form, wiping out all his friends except Yuki and cleansing the area of the evil spirit. Yuki was spared and the cursed sword Brynhildr was cleansed. Because of this, he was confined in the village and when Basara's father returned he insisted that Basara be released. Basara was released, but only on the condition that Jin lose his title as a hero. Jin chose the release of his son and they moved to the city.

Sure

In the present, Basara's father tells him that he is remarrying and that Basara is going to have two younger step-sisters, Mio and Maria. The four of them move into a new house (since the girls' mother is away overseas) and Jin is soon called away on business.

...uh oh

Maria has Basara and Mio perform a master-slave magical contract that allows them to know each other's location. But, Maria unexpectedly makes Basara the master and Mio the slave, not the other way around and because Maria used Succubus magic to form the contract, the penalty for a disloyal servant is a strong aphrodisiac effect that can only be relieved by the touch of the master, leading to a strong orgasmic release.

That escalated quickly

 

[AnathemicOne]

Morlocks.

Murlocs > Ponies

 

[Admiral Woofington]

My impressio is that Yamato is the only one of these three that can be considered niche?

Beserk and JoJo have been relevant for years now.

I wouldn't call them niche, but Berserk and Jojo are by no means Dragon Ball Z or Naruto levels of well known.

Berserk is probably the more well known of those two but that's because usually it's one of the first recommendations people give in general when discussing 'badass anime/manga'

Jojo is almost completely unheard of unless you're somewhere in the vicinity of someone who likes the show and/or fighting games.

 

[MattKeil]

Morlocks.

Deformed underground dwellers who farm, harvest, and eat naive child-like waifs?

 

[Shuggananas]

It's like mobile games, there's some gems in a sea of shit content
But it also gets super weird and creepy, without limits it seems. See recent threads about banning of lolicon and shit.

 

[mrklaw]

I think anime just became much more local, pandering to Japanese domestic tastes and then iterating on that to become very different to what it was 20-30 years ago.

Back then in the 80s and 90s, anime was popular in the western mainstream, but it was just 'cartoons'. Things like battle of the planets etc were just kids morning TV. There was no particular separate designation for it, it was just part of the entertainment landscape generally.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Deformed underground dwellers who farm, harvest, and eat naive child-like waifs?

Yes.

 

[Shouta]

There something to be said about the fact that the perception of anime is generally out-putting to those in the mainstream. It's not just the occasional show like Anime De Training! EX, there's a growing number of shows focused on ecchi fanservice Testament of Sister New Devil, Asterisk War, Hackadoll, or Anti-Magic Academy. (Most of them based on the LN trend, which I'd argue isn't helping matters.)

Minor thing but Asterisk isn't anywhere near the levels of smut that stuff like shinmaou, Valkyrie Drive or others like those. Rakudai is a better choice for that list lol

 

[Kurita]

The Perfect Insider (Crime)

Which are solid starting points. Three shows that could be live-action with little issue. Then you turn up the heat a bit.

Funny you mention that, the first TV adaptation of The Perfect Insider was a drama last year.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Look at the first page. People are proudly dismissing the entire thing. You can't deny that attitude is real. Seen it in real life, seen it on here.

I mean Jojo is only more recent anime-wise since all you had to go for was manga in its... nature...

Berserk is pretty known though. Those two do get recognition. Jojo's problem right now is that it's exposure is still ultimately limited. A streaming service, whooo....

 

[MHWilliams]

Minor thing but Asterisk isn't anywhere near the levels of smut that stuff like shinmaou, Valkyrie Drive or others like those. Rakudai is a better choice for that list lol

Oddly enough, Asterisk War annoyed me far more than something like Chivalry of a Failed Knight, which was overt about its intentions without the excessive fanservice camera shots of the former. I watched them back to back, and preferred Chivalry.

Funny you mention that, the first TV adaptation of The Perfect Insider was a drama last year.

Huh. I need to get on that

 

[Moosichu]

I watched Seven Dearly Sins on Netflix. It was actually decent, but why the fuck does the protagonist have to sexually assault people? It's so off-putting and doesn't make any sense and adds nothing to it. It also means I would never recommend the show to anyone.

Whereas I get everyone I know to whatch Ghibli films or other anime without this awkwardness, and they like it. But finding anime like that is so hard.

 

[Forkball]

I don't think the quality of recent anime has much to do with it. A lot of nerdy stuff is not good at all yet still popular. The biggest issue is that anime is not in English. Yes yes, there are dubs and what not, but the wait between release and translation time is too long for a lot of anime fans, which led to a culture of fansubs. It's hard to make money off of anime and manga because so many in the west get it for free, so businesses don't want to dip their toes into that market. Not to mention there has been no big success of adapting anime into American TV series or movies. There are so many licensing hurdles and inevitable controversy when someone wants to white wash a Japanese character.

I mean can you think of any major geek franchise that did not start in English? Video games are your best bets actually.

 

[Shouta]

Oddly enough, Asterisk War annoyed me far more than something like Chivalry of a Failed Knight, which was overt about its intentions without the excessive fanservice camera shots of the former.

Eh, gonna have to agree to disagree lol. I find Rakudai worse because of it's way more detrimental to the show.

 

[The Silver]

Are comics really on a level above anime/manga?

The characters themselves have entered the mainstream thanks to movies and cartoons but the actual comic books still seem as niche as ever. Hell here on Gaf you can see MCU fans shitting on the comics, despite them being the source of the stories they like.

 

[MHWilliams]

Eh, gonna have to agree to disagree lol. I find Rakudai worse because of it's way more detrimental to the show.

Yeah, I get that. I ultimately skipped out on both eventually because I can only watch the same light novel plot so many times, but I felt Asterisk thought it was pulling a fast one over on me.

 

[The Silver]

I watched Seven Dearly Sins on Netflix. It was actually decent, but why the fuck does the protagonist have to sexually assault people? It's so off-putting and doesn't make any sense and adds nothing to it. It also means I would never recommend the show to anyone.

Whereas I get everyone I know to whatch Ghibli films or other anime without this awkwardness, and they like it. But finding anime like that is so hard.

Oh yeah SDS, I just wanted to watch a dumb old school action show but then they just had to constantly have the MC sexually harass the main girl every 10 minutes. Ended up dropping it because of that.

 

[Shouta]

Yeah, I get that. I ultimately skipped out on both eventually because I can only watch the same light novel plot so many times, but I felt Asterisk thought it was pulling a fast one over on me.

Both shows have the exact same setup but do things really differently. They're surprisingly enjoyable, all things considered. Probably more so because they're waiting at the same time.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

It's how much the company leans into it. You can't control what people get obsessed about, but you can control how you react to it as the holder of the IP.

To use a RL example - a lot of Nick shows supposedly aimed at tweens that star and starred people like Victoria Justice or Ariana Grande had a lot of content in them that seemed to be well, not aimed at 10 year old girls. Now, it was nothing obvious, but anybody paying attention could see that the producers knew exactly what they were doing.

OTOH, Ariel Winter from Modern Family gets a lot of attention for a variety of reasons despite being underage. However, they don't blatantly focus on that in the show and instead, downplay her attractiveness and such.

Aren't there some very very serious allegations against the creator of those shows?

 

[Alex]

The only way I can ever really enjoy anime anymore is for shit to boil over like this and to have people retaliate by attempting to sift through the endless garbage for me. That's probably doubly an issue especially when I'm someone who grew up watching a ton of the stuff.

You could probably make that argument for a lot of entertainment but it's most difficult of all here, in my opinion. The ratio of junk and pandering is absolutely highest and the curation on any front for it is typically really bad. That's def a side effect of fanservice, fetishes, etc, infiltrating otherwise legitimate products. Happened with a lot of Japanese games too, I used to heavily subsist off of niche Japanese games for this hobby now I barely touch 'em.

With regard to some happenings in the topic; our actual Anime OT here on GAF isn't particularly fun to read (for my needs, anyway) and while I'm not one to say a community shouldn't be it's own thing you probably don't want to lead with an OP that's supposedly a bunch of satire, especially in this context. There is nothing that has ever existed where the word satire been fraudulently invoked and abused like it has with otaku fare. Hell, it got to the point where I thought calling shit satire became satire... but people are serious.

 

[patapuf]

Are comics really on a level above anime/manga?

The characters themselves have entered the mainstream thanks to movies and cartoons but the actual comic book still seem as niche as ever. Hell here on Gaf you can see MCU fans shitting on the comics, despite them being the source of the stories they like.

No they are not. However, like manga, "comics" are incredibly broad and not just Marvel/DC. The more mature stuff is usually more niche, but there's exellent comics around.

Ultimately, i don't think it's particularily fruitful to argue whether Dragonball or Naruto is "better" than Batman and Superman. There's good stuff around if you look.

 

[Branduil]

My impressio is that Yamato is the only one of these three that can be considered niche?

Beserk and JoJo have been relevant for years now.

JoJo only recently found "mainstream" success in the west thanks to the anime. All three of those series have been huge in Japan since they started.

Are comics really on a level above anime/manga?

The characters themselves have entered the mainstream thanks to movies and cartoons but the actual comic books still seem as niche as ever. Hell here on Gaf you can see MCU fans shitting on the comics, despite them being the source of the stories they like.

No, as mentioned in the article, manga actually routinely outsells comic books in the US. People like Marvel, but that doesn't mean they read the comics.

 

[Staccat0]

Anime got worse
Other stuff got, if not better, easier to engage

 

[Kurita]

Anime got worse
Other stuff got, if not better, easier to engage

Did it though?
Have you compared everything that came out 15 years ago with what came out this year?

 

[Thoraxes]

Yeah, I get that. I ultimately skipped out on both eventually because I can only watch the same light novel plot so many times, but I felt Asterisk thought it was pulling a fast one over on me.

Once you've seen one battle-harem, you've seen them all.

They are my junk food.

 

[Staccat0]

Did it though?
Have you compared everything that came out 15 years ago with what came out this year?

I watch anime as part of my job. Yes.
Very little of it suits my taste. Your mileage may vary.

A lot of everything is shit, but it feels like there is just a crazy ratio of fanservice junk to thoughtful adult storytelling.

You may feel free to disagree. I also think most comic book movies are dumb and Star Wars is bad - so I'm not gonna have a popular opinion around here, haha.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Did it though?
Have you compared everything that came out 15 years ago with what came out this year?

To be fair, you didn't have to worry about "beautiful things" 15 years ago.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

People don't care to read superhero comics because they are not interesting but they seem to have a place in the news as quasi celebrity figures. Like it's interesting to people if Batman dumps his girlfriend for a younger model like an ageing rock star. But they want to watch the TV or movies to find out not read some comic book.

 

[hirokazu]

I don't think this is necessarily true in Australia. Anime and manga is a pretty well accepted part of geek culture here and not referred to as the "other" geek thing that's not cool to be into.

That said, I find this part of the article accurate to me (remove American):

The average “American otaku” ... is only strongly interested for approximately two years, typically during their teens or 20s... Eventually, most move onto something else ... such that their interest in anime/manga from that point on is secondary at best, negative at worst; many look back on their “anime phase” as an adolescent embarrassment and compensate in the other direction from that point on.

I got turned off and lost interest when the market was flooded with moe and ecchi fanservice shit. Mind you there was still good stuff out there that wasn't that, but it became hard to find ones I was interested in. I still watch the occasional thing, but yeah, as an interest, secondary at best.

A lot of everything is shit, but it feels like there is just a crazy ratio of fanservice junk to thoughtful adult storytelling.

Pretty much.

 

[Kaze2212]

My curiosity got the better of me


Okay yup

Sure

...uh oh

That escalated quickly

I watched a bit of that show when it aired and I have watched a lot of anime. But shows like that are even too much for me and where I ask myself while watching "What the hell am I doing right now?".

So yeah... I can assure everyone that even in japan this is probably just as weird to the genral public.

 

[Style]

Don't worry, guys. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 4 will save anime in April.

 

[hirokazu]

I remember when my friends came over and one of them put on Kill La Kill and they're like "When I watched the first episode I knew this show was gonna be awesome. It's such a great show." So we watched the first episode. First it was OK if a bit hyperactive and then it totally jumps the shark and turns to crap. "So what did you think? So cool, right?" "Uh... Yeeeeeah... Okay... I guess..." >_>

And so I never watched another episode of that again.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

I remember when my friends came over and one of them put on Kill La Kill and they're like "When I watched the first episode I knew this show was gonna be awesome. It's such a great show." So we watched the first episode. First it was OK if a bit hyperactive and then it totally jumps the shark and turns to crap. "So what did you think? So cool, right?" "Uh... Yeeeeeah... Okay... I guess..." >_>

And so I never watched another episode of that again.

I wish I made that decision still...

 

[Xe4]

As a humongous fan of animation, I often find the 'Otaku-ization' of many Anime too much to handle. It's not really a cultural thing. I love the way am expert storyteller can interweave Japanese culture into movies and animation. It's just that anime relies on too many tropes and clichés, spwcific to anime, of which I find many off putting (fanicey, ultra hyper violence, moe, specific 'anime' artstyle) that it's hard for me to get into many. Not that all anime does this, I still frequently find shows/movies that I very much enjoy, but I don't enjoy anime nearly enough to call myself an Otaku.

 

[Phat Michael]

This is gold coming from someone that has over 31,000 posts in a video game forum lmao

That is fantastic.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

America has their own version of Otakus. You have nerds that love to collect every single variant cover and statue of their favorite character in different poses and will spend $100 - $1000 to do so. Being an Otaku is pretty mainstream.

 

[jett]

I had no idea manga sold so well in America, to the point that it stomps on American comic books.

 

[hirokazu]

This is gold coming from someone that has over 31,000 posts in a video game forum lmao

:3

 

[Cuburt]

Anyone mention xenophobia yet?

I see it on GAF and in the video game industry in general with the way the media champions Western titles, Western studios, and the only Western console maker.

People use slurs like Weeaboo to put down anyone with an interest in Japanese culture or Japan's media exports (some people definitely get weird and "culturally appropriative" about it, but that's besides the point) and there are some pretty ignorant attitudes openly expressed in generalizations about Japan in general. That's even before you get to any aspects of Japanese culture or media that people find offensive, or that makes them uncomfortable, people feel it's acceptable to generalize Japan in such a way that everyone are some weirdo otakus or something. "lol Japan" and such and such.

People are threatened that a culture that is so different and "exotic" could be appealing to the youth to the point that imported media can be more popular than domestic media. Think about that, the U.S. is usually the one who supplies the rest of the world with our films, shows, and entertainment industry and here is Japan who not only fills a niche that Americans don't even really produce content in the same vein as, it also has all the appeal of this non-western Japanese culture at the heart of it that makes it just different to other entertainment. I can't think of another area which that is true; there is the occasional show or film that crosses over for an American audience that is made elsewhere but it's the exception.

So even when stuff like Anime and manga is HUGE in the U.S., it will be regarded by it's "otherness", as a "niche", even though a significant portion of the people buying it are white (not unlike hip hop). Meanwhile, white people will also be mocked for consuming that media (not unlike hip hop) while being called derogatory names and the mainstream will appropriate and leech of that culture while not ever giving it the recognition it deserves (not unlike hip hop).

 

[Makai]

Nonsense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPZDBF0kei0

 

[dity]

Don't worry, guys. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 4 will save anime in April.

But I thought Kill La Kill saved anime!?

I don't think this is necessarily true in Australia. Anime and manga is a pretty well accepted part of geek culture here and not referred to as the "other" geek thing that's not cool to be into.

I was the president of the University of Wollongong's Anime and Manga club for a while and I can tell you with confidence that it wasn't really a club regarded on the same level as clubs about Harry Potter or even Dungeons and Dragons. Pretty pushed off to the side, never ever got guests - it was always just the core members, and that wasn't always a good thing.

 

[Snkfanatic]

Then you get many things that just confirm the stereotype of anime fans being socially inept, unemployed, low self-esteem losers who can't deal with reality.

PR game for otaku is weak as fuck. Don't ever hear any positive stories, so easier to laugh at the weirdos.

Wow

I love this forum and it's complete acceptance of bullshit posts like this.

 

[ElFly]

I had no idea manga sold so well in America, to the point that it stomps on American comic books.

I think it's more that American comic books just sell super bad, period, partly due to distribution issues, partly due to continuity and impenetrability, probably other reasons too. They seem to be on a slow recovery due to digital distribution tho.