UnemployedVillain
Member
Well,
her ex who was able to "hack" into her voicemail which was mysteriously missing messages seems like a good person to start off with
Making A Murderer - Netflix 10-part documentary series - S1 now streaming on Netflix
- Thread starter Armadilo
- Start date
Well,
The Illiterati
Member
Like I said in my post then you have to explain why her totally unrelated visit to photograph his car and then subsequent murder just happened to coincide with the Avery lawsuit. Doesn't add up for me.
ZQQLANDER
Member
You are right, there are a lot of things that don't make sense if Avery was the killer. Why he wouldn't clean the RAV 4, use the kiln/car crusher, or kill her for that matter is beyond me.
As an investigator in law enforcement though I constantly run across people who think they are a fucking all-star criminal who will never get caught. They cut corners and get complacent. How they conduct their illegal activity whether it's robbing a bank, distributing child porn, or kidnapping someone is mind boggling and never well thought out. Often times it make no sense. But for some reason they think they are the shit and will get away with it. They are never thinking three or four moves ahead.
Him not cleaning up more thoroughly/making better decisions really isn't surprising to me at all. What does catch my attention is the ineptitude of law enforcement to search the premise in one sweep. How they could call a mulligan multiple times on a search warrant is beyond me (and then find evidence).
Regarding your third point. It is quite alarming (if he did in fact kill her) that he is able to act so natural during the media interview. He is engaging with the interviewer and isn't deflecting any questions or fidgeting. Definitely looks like an innocent individual.
^^^Edit: Was it that there were mysteriously deleted messages or that the ex-boyfriend couldn't remember if he deleted any or not?
In the documentary, the ex-boyfriend says he checks the phone plan online, by guessing the password and username. The brother says he checks her voicemail by guessing her password after getting the message it's filled up but says he doesn't delete anything. I'm not sure about the timeline but at some point at least one message is deleted since there was room for a new voicemail to get stored after it was supposedly filled.
Yeah, torturing and killing animals is hilarious.
Maybe 18 years is too many, but I think animal cruelty deserves some substantial amount of time behind bars.
RustyNails
Member
I'm on episode 4. like holy fucking shit. This whole thing is fucking insanity.
The thing is he did do an incredibly thorough job of cleaning up the house and the garage. The prosecution argues that this woman was tied up, raped, stabbed multiple times, her throat was slit, she was shot 11 times, and then her body was burned. He was capable of wiping out every trace of her and his nephew from those two locations but didnt have a problem leaving her car on his property? Thats hard to swallow.
Didn't he do some time for that though? Or was that only for robbing the tavern with his friends or whatever.
The Illiterati
Member
No, I think the poster is laughing at the absurdity because someone's sense of justice could be so utterly unbalanced that while watching a tale of corruption and a man's entire life being taken away from him, some people can only care about a cat who accidentally got caught on fire. I say this sitting with my own cat I love on my lap.
As a vegetarian aninal rights loving freak I agree that it's a sort of comical thing to focus on.
EDIT: Maybe it's just because I am from the middle of nowhere in Missouri. I knew plenty of idiots who killed animals including cats in horrific ways (including my step dad who liked to catch mice and throw them in our wood burning stove) and I dunno if they were murderers.
I hate that shit, but see I also think people are pretty callous about most living things - so it's a scale. I mean, I don't kill bugs.
I've read that he poured gasoline on the cat before before putting it in the fire....accidental? The show skimmed over it really quickly in any case.
I'm up to episode 3 of the show, and the corruption on display in the law enforcement is sickening, and I feel awwwful for Brendan.....but I'd be lying if I said the cat thing isn't always on my mind with Avery. I don't find that to be a youthful mistake type of thing. It's pretty evil.
I'm up to episode 3 of the show, and the corruption on display in the law enforcement is sickening, and I feel awwwful for Brendan.....but I'd be lying if I said the cat thing isn't always on my mind with Avery. I don't find that to be a youthful mistake type of thing. It's pretty evil.
Oh, now I get why you think Avery is guilty.
He threw a cat into a fire. Possibly poured gasoline on it beforehand (can't find the source on this claim yet -- somehow it's made it into the Wiki). That's beyond disgusting, and I don't think a few days in jail and a fine is punishment enough.
edit:
Five months later Avery [age ~20] was charged with cruelty to animals for dousing a cat with gasoline and oil, throwing it in a bonfire, and watching it die. He claimed that he was there when the incident happened but had nothing to do with it. Nevertheless, his probation was revoked, and he served nine months in prison for that crime.
http://truecrimecases.blogspot.com/2012/08/steven-avery.html
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
oh, now it makes sense as to why you think he is obviously guilty
Killing_Joke
Member
Just finished. I don't even know what to say. Everything I've felt has already been expressed by pretty much everyone here. My heart sinks for Brendan. How the FUCK can this be possible? Why wasn't his intelligence tested or even brought up in trial? How did they do such a shitty job proving the cops completely manipulated him?
The jury saw a kid who admitted to murder and now back out because he's scared. They didn't give a fuck about no evidence. They didn't give a shit that his story made NO sense or backed up any of the supposed "evidence". It just seemed like everyone was against these guys. Media, shaddy cops, the entire fucking judicial system.
Then i see all the denials for retrials and i'm like WTF. I'm just so sad right now.
The jury saw a kid who admitted to murder and now back out because he's scared. They didn't give a fuck about no evidence. They didn't give a shit that his story made NO sense or backed up any of the supposed "evidence". It just seemed like everyone was against these guys. Media, shaddy cops, the entire fucking judicial system.
Then i see all the denials for retrials and i'm like WTF. I'm just so sad right now.
Barely started watchin this Im in EP 2.not sure if to spoiler but gonna do it..
wow that Manitowoc county is corrupt and fucking irresponsible and lazy to do their fuckin job. Everyone in law enforcement in Manitowoc should be arrested and charged with criminal/ethical violations for their BS
Beerman462
Member
Just finished this and wow. I can't believe I watched all that for him to be
How is this guy some sort of forensic genius that can remove all traces of blood from his
What ever though. I probably won't watch another one of these.
found guilty in the end.
How is this guy some sort of forensic genius that can remove all traces of blood from his
house, garage or where ever, but not the Rav 4? Why wasn't the car crushed or taken somewhere else and burned?
What ever though. I probably won't watch another one of these.
I don't remember them talking about this in the doc - where did Teresa Halbach live in relation to the murder? Where did the ex?-boyfriend live?
I think knowing this is important because if it is a significant distance it makes less sense that the perpetrator was directly associated with her.
I think knowing this is important because if it is a significant distance it makes less sense that the perpetrator was directly associated with her.
neurosisxeno
Member
I don't think Death Threats are justified, but that guy is totally a shithead.
Agreed. I do wonder what his side of the story would be? He always seemed rather unctuous to me.
IDK...I cant watch this anymore...it feels me with rage how Minatowoc county is willing to do anything to frame Avery especially coercing that kid to say what the investigators wanted him to say to get a conviction instead of accepting the fact that they fucked up, then get fired/convicted and go to jail for their BS. From judges to the cops/sheriffs walking the beat..guilty all of them. bastards...
EightBitNate
Member
Don't be an ass. It's like you didn't even watch the documentary.
Stop stereotyping people.
there are far more inconsistencies with the events that make this something really crazy.
The fact that he was suing the county for millions after being imprisoned for 18 years. Leading to some really big hate from the original county and even the sheriff. His interview is crazy. Its like a personal vendetta.
The fact that cops and detectives didn't follow procedure in suspects and their alibi. it was all about Stephen and then Brendan. Which is insane. Like a lot of people said it was really weird that the ex boyfriend got into the phone records just like that, and the stand line of questioning saw him getting pretty anxious. He was in the area, could totally be a suspect. he didn't even get a where were you at the time of death.no nothing.
No followup on the harassment of calls according to some of the coworkers.
The coercion of what to say, what to draw, and what to write specifically to Brendan is sickening. i don't even know how that is even possible to accept. Its coerced.
The judge was the cherry on top. Denying any motion. After the DA dropped the bomb about the phone call where they talk about burying the body out of a series of questions that were not related. Judge doesn't address the jury.
The judge has been denying ALL appeals. i mean.. at this point he will stay in jail. 2 failed convictions would look horrible as far as the judicial system goes.
Yep.. the car being found so close to the entrance... no one followed up with the allegations that someone had told Stephen about the noises of someone placing a car in there.
Why would he cover the car after placing it so close to the entrance when he has a car compactor.
Brendan being really slow and not knowing how to respond, along with the poor legal counsel, and even the denial of a new lawyer was mindblowing. Poor guy.
I always thought it was weird that the ex boyfriend organized the search party. gave specific directions to look in the car lot and gave a camera to the people searching there, but not to anyone else.
the harassment to the girlfriend by the cops is nuts. even tho she had the whole DUI thing.
the DA having to resign for sexual harrasment of SEVERAL domestic abuse victims was crazy... the guy was an asshole.
Brendans story is always the same... the most consistent out of everything happening.
When asking a line of questions, the timeline as if they actually did it, everything falls apart really fast. So not sure what the investigation was counting on... but its crazy it stuck.
oh yea... the blood vial being tampered.
the 17 times i think they went into his property to find evidence. To only find the car keys in plain site only after several visits. Found by a cop that wasn't even the county doing the lead investigation i believe. ITS CRAZY!
The keys didn't have any prints, of anyone... not even Theresa. Except for blood from Stephen.
oh yea.. the car in the lot had only blood by the ignition. nowhere else. it looked placed.
There is still more to this list.
man.. the list keeps going and going. its nuts.
The fact that cops and detectives didn't follow procedure in suspects and their alibi. it was all about Stephen and then Brendan. Which is insane. Like a lot of people said it was really weird that the ex boyfriend got into the phone records just like that, and the stand line of questioning saw him getting pretty anxious. He was in the area, could totally be a suspect. he didn't even get a where were you at the time of death.no nothing.
No followup on the harassment of calls according to some of the coworkers.
The coercion of what to say, what to draw, and what to write specifically to Brendan is sickening. i don't even know how that is even possible to accept. Its coerced.
The judge was the cherry on top. Denying any motion. After the DA dropped the bomb about the phone call where they talk about burying the body out of a series of questions that were not related. Judge doesn't address the jury.
The judge has been denying ALL appeals. i mean.. at this point he will stay in jail. 2 failed convictions would look horrible as far as the judicial system goes.
Yep.. the car being found so close to the entrance... no one followed up with the allegations that someone had told Stephen about the noises of someone placing a car in there.
Why would he cover the car after placing it so close to the entrance when he has a car compactor.
Brendan being really slow and not knowing how to respond, along with the poor legal counsel, and even the denial of a new lawyer was mindblowing. Poor guy.
I always thought it was weird that the ex boyfriend organized the search party. gave specific directions to look in the car lot and gave a camera to the people searching there, but not to anyone else.
the harassment to the girlfriend by the cops is nuts. even tho she had the whole DUI thing.
the DA having to resign for sexual harrasment of SEVERAL domestic abuse victims was crazy... the guy was an asshole.
Brendans story is always the same... the most consistent out of everything happening.
When asking a line of questions, the timeline as if they actually did it, everything falls apart really fast. So not sure what the investigation was counting on... but its crazy it stuck.
oh yea... the blood vial being tampered.
the 17 times i think they went into his property to find evidence. To only find the car keys in plain site only after several visits. Found by a cop that wasn't even the county doing the lead investigation i believe. ITS CRAZY!
The keys didn't have any prints, of anyone... not even Theresa. Except for blood from Stephen.
oh yea.. the car in the lot had only blood by the ignition. nowhere else. it looked placed.
There is still more to this list.
man.. the list keeps going and going. its nuts.
I believe Stephens lawyer was pretty good... but when facing so much bias it must be impossible to build a good case. Specially when all everyone saw in the news was about the perfect murder.
hmmm... his side of the story... i believe everything that was presented was pretty good at just showing what happened. Must be tough to sift through so much footage, and what to show. but it really showed the key moments and turning points of the trial. as well as media interviews. what did he want? and interview justifying his position? he's supposed to be doing that in the trial, and the backlash comes from the obvious bias and mishandling of the case by ignoring all kind of procedure and what not.
also.. its hard to take this guy seriously after what they disclose about him.
i think it said somewhere that the jury was for innocent except for 3 people. and yet it ended up in guilty. this is nuts. The prosecution and everything involved with the case really felt personal.
BrassMonkey1010
Member
I know! She looked like Karen from the office.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Why does his conviction stop his original lawsuit?
He settled the lawsuit (took money) to pay for his lawyer for the murder trial.
ZQQLANDER
Member
Don't hate me, lol.
It's not obvious that he is guilty. I think he is, but too much doubt to convict. Plus I think Brendan is innocent. Does anyone know how all these appeals got denied?
In my mind this documentary should be shown as a training video because it shows how NOT to conduct an investigation.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
Just giving you a hard time brah! I think he could be guilty too but based on the evidence presented you couldn't say he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Brendan had nothing to do with this, no doubt about that
Yeah the main reason it strains credibility for him to be so sloppy in those regards is that apparently, when we get to the house, they want us to believe that he's the best crime scene cleaner that has ever lived. Nobody could've cleaned up that amount of blood that well, especially without leaving the scene looking obviously staged, which the crime scene photos sure didn't portray. They want us to think of Steven Avery as both a "genetic dead end" but also a criminal mastermind beyond compare and it's ridiculous.
There was proof that some messages were likely deleted, but they were never recovered and it wasn't proven who sent them, who accessed them or if they were intentionally deleted or by accident. I think it's easy to believe that Mike may have accidentally deleted them without intending to.
Appeals are only for procedural mistakes or new evidence right? Even if a jury finds guilt in the face of overwhelming evidence, as long as the jury heard all the evidence and no one in court made some kind of technical mistake then there's no grounds for appeal.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
Thank you for putting the effort in explaining this that I was unwilling to.
The appeals were actually being called for on the basis of errors in the investigation. Does anyone know if that holds up? I don't think Steven's lawyers would've tried that angle if it had no merit regardless of circumstances.
HOW IN THE FUCK
i also don't feel bad for the shithead prosecutor getting threats. the text messages he sent to that abuse victim prove he is a shithead
fuck teresa's brother. at first i felt sympathy for him for obvious reasons, but as it goes on and time goes on, his interviews continue to be him just being a smug shithead. he might as well just come out and say the police are infallible with the way he acts
is Brendan still in jail to this day? that shit just leaves a really sour taste in my mouth. he was clearly manipulated, there is no evidence of him actually committing a crime, and he clearly is not a "normal teenager". not to mention Avery's case ends with him being convicted as the sole perpetrator. how the FUCK is this guy sitting in a jail cell?
i also don't feel bad for the shithead prosecutor getting threats. the text messages he sent to that abuse victim prove he is a shithead
fuck teresa's brother. at first i felt sympathy for him for obvious reasons, but as it goes on and time goes on, his interviews continue to be him just being a smug shithead. he might as well just come out and say the police are infallible with the way he acts
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Got through it in a couple of days and now I'm completely bummed out. The US criminal justice system is fucked up beyond belief and failed this two men in an atrocious manner, in my opinion. As someone not living in the US I still don't understand the positives of having an untrained jury decide the fate of people on trial.
Sure, any person can be biased and influenced by media, but at least if the decision comes down to judges you have the certainty that they have a clear understanding of the issues at hand. The judges in this case seemed pretty moronic and narrow minded as well but if you have say 3 judges at least there's a chance at a much more fair and balanced decision.
I wish I had not seen this during the holidays. It's gonna be tough to get it out of my mind.
Sure, any person can be biased and influenced by media, but at least if the decision comes down to judges you have the certainty that they have a clear understanding of the issues at hand. The judges in this case seemed pretty moronic and narrow minded as well but if you have say 3 judges at least there's a chance at a much more fair and balanced decision.
I wish I had not seen this during the holidays. It's gonna be tough to get it out of my mind.
chicko1983
Member
How can you laugh about something like that? A kid who is clearly intellectually disadvantaged getting tried for murder as an adult.
also with the in regards to the body parts of Theresa, can someone please confirm for me -
I think they say only briefly that DNA was recovered from a shin bone. Was any more DNA recovered of her from the bones, ie teeth or on multiple bones? I don't think this was looked into hard enough. People are wondering how the body ends up in SAs burn pit, but what I am leaning towards now is: the car was found off the property but there was no body found. The bones were from another body which the cops have taken from evidence but put some of her DNA on the bones. Usually identification of burnt bodies is done from dna extracted from inside the teeth or dental records. I can't remember but were there any teeth on the jaw bone found or not? If I was the defence I would be asking for a dna test from the teeth, although that cannot be done now.
JumpJeff84
Member
Am I wrong in remembering that the defence had a phone company employee on the stand, and they were about to have her play the deleted phone messages that had been recovered, but then the judge denied the motion? I swear I remember that...
There were no teeth recovered from what was shown in the documentary, only portions around the eye sockets and part of a cheek bone (pertaining to the face). I don't recall them mentioning a recovered jaw bone, but I could be mistaken.
Regardless, your assertion is absurd. I completely agree that the Sheriff's department was screwing around with evidence in some capacity, but what you're suggesting is beyond the pale. The shin bone still had muscle tissue intact. This means that the police would have had to have access to the bones of Theresa's corpse (or at the very least her shin bone), taken inventory of what was there, and then filled in the blanks with additional bones from another corpse. It was her body in the fire, there's absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.
Regardless, your assertion is absurd. I completely agree that the Sheriff's department was screwing around with evidence in some capacity, but what you're suggesting is beyond the pale. The shin bone still had muscle tissue intact. This means that the police would have had to have access to the bones of Theresa's corpse (or at the very least her shin bone), taken inventory of what was there, and then filled in the blanks with additional bones from another corpse. It was her body in the fire, there's absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.
just finished it and only now find out it's a fucking true story!? I'd convinced myself it couldn't be true by the end and maybe they were setting it up for season 2 but fuck. It's horrible that no one can go after those corrupt bastards. Butin and Strang seemed like they'd be able to put Lenk and Colburn away if given a chance but that's not how it works eh.
Just so sad now. It's definitely weird that the killer was able to dump the remains there and then happen to have police plant evidence as well. I don't understand how there's zero trace of her anywhere in the house or garage but there ARE traces of Avery's DNA so seems like he didn't do a massive clean up job. Her bloody hair in the car, Colburn calling in the license plate, the key having only Avery's DNA on it. Why would he put the key in his fucking bedroom after cleaning it down ffs.
When the judge was talking about the trajectory of his crimes getting worse over time I was like wtf....is he referring to the incorrect sexual assault verdict cos that's fucked up!
Mike O'Kelly is disgusting, when he called them evil basically and that the gene pool needs to stop - how is that man still allowed to work.
Maybe the show left out bits that would've incriminated him a bit more but as has been said many times so many inconsistencies.
Just so sad now. It's definitely weird that the killer was able to dump the remains there and then happen to have police plant evidence as well. I don't understand how there's zero trace of her anywhere in the house or garage but there ARE traces of Avery's DNA so seems like he didn't do a massive clean up job. Her bloody hair in the car, Colburn calling in the license plate, the key having only Avery's DNA on it. Why would he put the key in his fucking bedroom after cleaning it down ffs.
When the judge was talking about the trajectory of his crimes getting worse over time I was like wtf....is he referring to the incorrect sexual assault verdict cos that's fucked up!
Mike O'Kelly is disgusting, when he called them evil basically and that the gene pool needs to stop - how is that man still allowed to work.
Maybe the show left out bits that would've incriminated him a bit more but as has been said many times so many inconsistencies.
I, uh...what? Did you think they filmed this over the course of 30 years or something? LOL
chicko1983
Member
The shin bone was the only bone with DNA on it. This was no doubt tested by a lab who I couldn't trust at all (if it was the same one doing the testing for DNA on the bullet).
No DNA or tissue was found on other bones. Not all the bones from the body were recovered from all three sites. No teeth were found yet her jaw bone was found which could identify the body as someone else - gee that's coincidental....
To say there is "absolutely no reason to believe otherwise" is absurd to me.
I dont believe SA did it. So I am trying to get my head around how her body was found on his property.
My only other explanation, if the police didnt do it or SA didnt do it, would be that Bobby and or his dad burnt the body in the far quarry pit and then after that was found by the police, the police moved it to the pit near the house.
No DNA or tissue was found on other bones. Not all the bones from the body were recovered from all three sites. No teeth were found yet her jaw bone was found which could identify the body as someone else - gee that's coincidental....
To say there is "absolutely no reason to believe otherwise" is absurd to me.
I dont believe SA did it. So I am trying to get my head around how her body was found on his property.
My only other explanation, if the police didnt do it or SA didnt do it, would be that Bobby and or his dad burnt the body in the far quarry pit and then after that was found by the police, the police moved it to the pit near the house.
this is a good article regarding the teeth they did find:
http://archive.postcrescent.com/art...-link-teeth-bones-Halbach-point-violent-death
from that article:
If the identity of the bones were not brought into question by the defense team, then it was most likely not a relevant issue to broach.
I'm not sure what the coincidence is regarding finding a jaw bone? I guess you're suggesting that the jaw bone was not tested because it would prove to belong to another person?
It seems pretty clear that the body was moved in some capacity from the quarry to the fire pit using the barrel (or at least that's how everything was staged to appear, we don't know for certain). What I don't understand is why you believe the police substituted in a second corpse. For what purpose? What would be the logistics of even doing this? Especially when it would requite bones ranging from the skull all the way down to the shin (essentially a full corpse). And then burning them and placing them in multiple locations, planting Theresa's DNA (from where exactly?), all without having Theresa's actual body? What if her true body was later discovered?
I mean, come on now.
I'm not sure what the coincidence is regarding finding a jaw bone? I guess you're suggesting that the jaw bone was not tested because it would prove to belong to another person?
It seems pretty clear that the body was moved in some capacity from the quarry to the fire pit using the barrel (or at least that's how everything was staged to appear, we don't know for certain). What I don't understand is why you believe the police substituted in a second corpse. For what purpose? What would be the logistics of even doing this? Especially when it would requite bones ranging from the skull all the way down to the shin (essentially a full corpse). And then burning them and placing them in multiple locations, planting Theresa's DNA (from where exactly?), all without having Theresa's actual body? What if her true body was later discovered?
I mean, come on now.
scarface983
Member
I knew the prosecutor looked like a shithead. And Brendan's First Lawyer, another shithead. He just wanted recognition.
They said Steve is a Dangerous man... but what did he do to become so dangerous.
When I saw the Video of the Investigator telling Brandon to write down his side and to tell the truth and draw the Diagram of the bed.