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[SomTervo]

Answer this one for me: Why is there a Resistance when there's already a New Republic? What does the New Republic do?

This is the only truly gaping plot hole in the film.

Everything else can be read between the lines – which is the richest kind of storytelling there is – but they mention the 'Resistance' quite a few times and it seems almost interchangable with Republic which is just stupid and confusing writing.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I'm sure the EU will explain that Wookies don't weep or hug when mourning because it's a sign of weakness or whatever.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

People are trying to say that it happened for plot reasons? I've seen people use it as one of the many reasons why the film didn't do anything for them, but not that it had plot behind it.

Spoiler

Rey's confirmed skywalker / leia and han's son, etc. or leia hates chewbacca

 

[WrenchNinja]

Will someone get this big walking carpet out of my way?

 

[jts]

The universe is not all rainbows and unicorns.

It isn’t, and Star Wars shows that well, but it should have taken a break after Luke, i.e., the “chosen one" finally rescues it from the dark side, after decades of Sith domination.

If anything this trilogy should be more focused in the evil slowly creeping back, instead of starting from an established evil universe again, which was just quickly introduced with a few words.

Of course, I feel like they want to take it to that happy ending again so it has to start all doom and gloom. But what’s the point of a happy ending if it can be just shat on afterwards by whoever comes to write about it next.

 

[Messypandas]

Okay, I got you now. I agree, what he did wasn't reaching or an asspull, he had skill as a pilot and used the force to help make that sot.

He didn't need much help, they prefaced it saying he shot womp rats in a T-16 and he was a great pilot like his dad. The guiding force was just a bit of lube but he already had the skill.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

To that, I'd say it's reminded some of why the original trilogy will never be surpassed. And it literally takes almost every major plot element from IV.

Shaanyboi's post at the end of the previous page covered it pretty well. There are several major plot points new to TFA.

 

[j-wood]

I think your main issue is with the movie being built as a trilogy. Not excusing it, but it is what it is.

Luke himself didn't say fuck it all, he went to find something at the first Jedi temple. Everyone just thinks that he vanished.

Han didn't just say fuck it all, he and lei were having problems (understandably) after what happened to ren. We don't know those details yet.

There is more to Rey than we know, and I feel like we'll be given a reason why she was able to use the force so quickly.

Again though, all of this relies on the fact that other movies are coming. It is what it is.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Spoiler

Rey's confirmed skywalker / leia and han's son, etc. or leia hates chewbacca

That's dumb.

Speaking of Rey being Luke's kid or whatever: it's interesting that people are speculating on her parentage as a way to explain her prowess with the Force, at least originally.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Shaanyboi's post at the end of the previous page covered it pretty well. There are several major plot points new to TFA.

Those plot points are given way too little attention and aren't explored nearly enough.

 

[Oidisco]

Small thing about Rey powering up and beating Kylo. Earlier in the film Maz tells her to close her eyes and to feel the force around her and that the light has always been there. The fight is the 1st time she actually takes that chance to focus on the Force, and it's at a moment where Ren lets his guard down to try and turn her.

I only really copped to it on my 2nd viewing. I can see why people think it's a bit cheap though, there's a lot of little moments like that but because the film never slows down it's easy to gloss over them. And even with the explanation they could've spent a little more time on it.

 

[sphagnum]

Worth watching? Never seen Rebels.

It's worth watching but don't expect something amazing. It's a solid, fun show but it's more geared towards kids than The Clone Wars, which skewed a little older.

 

[Hellwarden]

Shaanyboi's post at the end of the previous page covered it pretty well. There are several major plot points new to TFA.

They use the death star again. Changing little things doesn't make up for that.

 

[Messypandas]

They use the death star again. Changing little things doesn't make up for that.

Yeah but it's bigger.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Yeah but it's bigger.

They even tell you it's bigger.

 

[MattKeil]

This is the only truly gaping plot hole in the film.

Everything else can be read between the lines – which is the richest kind of storytelling there is – but they mention the 'Resistance' quite a few times and it seems almost interchangable with Republic which is just stupid and confusing writing.

It's not a plot hole, because it has nothing to do with the plot. It's just missing information. Nearly every question anyone has about this movie is due to cut content and deleted scenes. The film should probably have been about 20 minutes longer and been allowed to breathe and build the world more.

The Resistance is a militarized force that actively combats and harasses the First Order. The Republic is the official new government of the worlds that rebelled against the Empire, and officially they disavow the Resistance because they are in an unsteady truce with what remains of the Empire. (The First Order is NOT the Empire, it's basically a cult that sprang up within the remnants of the Empire...another thing the movie doesn't make clear.) There is a deleted scene with the woman the movie seems to expect us to know when the Hosnian system is destroyed, in which we learn she is Leia's liason to the Republic, and Leia goes into how much the Republic hates her for refusing to cease hostilities against the Empire. Leia implies that if she went to the Republic capital herself, she would be quietly assassinated.

It's clear that Lucasfilm was terrified of talking for one second about the politics or governmental situation of the galaxy in TFA, and that left a lot of unanswered questions floating around. You can thank the people who whined and screamed about "OMG POLITIX BORING" regarding the prequels for that.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

They even tell you it's bigger.

Much biggerer.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

This is the only truly gaping plot hole in the film.

Everything else can be read between the lines – which is the richest kind of storytelling there is – but they mention the 'Resistance' quite a few times and it seems almost interchangable with Republic which is just stupid and confusing writing.

The resistance is internal to the first order - some of the planets / governments subordinate to the supreme leader have presumably split away and (most likely) seek to join the New Republic, which is a separate galactic state. In the film they state that the New Republic is funding/equipping the resistance.

I do agree that the resistance using all of the same imagery and iconic spacecraft as the original rebel alliance was probably unnecessarily confusing if you hadn't read up on some of the promotional materials and paid attention to the crawl.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I can understand the dislike of the Death Star motif being reused, but at least it didn't literally just say "we did it again" like Jedi did. At least they did some different things with their Death Star.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

I can understand the dislike of the Death Star motif being reused, but at least it didn't literally just say "we did it again" like Jedi did. At least they did some different things with their Death Star.

Lol, it's not the aesthetic that people are baffled about. It's the new Death Star's roll in the story, which is ultimately the same exact roll as before. The difference in how it functions is ultimately trivial.

 

[Messypandas]

They even tell you it's bigger.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

They use the death star again. Changing little things doesn't make up for that.

If the Empire could build a planet destroying weapon, it makes sense the villains that are trying to emulate them and now find themselves the underdogs would do the same.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Why is it we can all critique the PT so easily but if anyone offers up a different perspective on this movie, it gets overwhelmingly met with full defense mode?

I don't get it.

I enjoyed TFA but part of the fun of having a discussion is...having a discussion. The movie wasn't horrible but it wasn't perfect.

 

[heliosRAzi]

 

[A Link to the Past]

Lol, it's not the aesthetic that people are baffled about. It's the new Death Star's roll in the story, which is ultimately the same exact roll as before. The differences in how it functions is ultimately trivial.

>_> Uh, you might have overlooked the fact that I was talking about how this laziness was at least miles less lazy than "we just did the Death Star again but without that vent."

 

[heliosRAzi]

>_> Uh, you might have overlooked the fact that I was talking about how this laziness was at least miles less lazy than "we just did the Death Star again but without that vent."

That's not exactly a high bar then, is it?

 

[A Link to the Past]

That's not exactly a high bar then, is it?

The most respectable thing that VII could do is emulate the laziness of the franchise.

It's a big part of why I prefer Awakens to Jedi. Both films emulate A New Hope a lot, but at least Awakens can justify it with being a soft reboot. Jedi felt somewhat like a cash-in.

 

[Lord Panda]

Force Awakens is better than the OT in almost every way.

Rey, Finn and Poe are a much stronger trio of lead characters (plus more diverse). BB-8 is so much cuter and funnier than C3PO, that little robot just steals the show whereas C3PO just grates on your nerves. Visual design in TFA is much nicer.

The music and villain are better in the OT though. Emo Andy Samberg in a mask just can't compare to Vader and Palpatine.

Man, your post is wrong on so many levels. I'm not even sure if you're joking or not.

 

[crimzonflame]

I liked TFA but the OP makes some valid points.

 

[enigmatic_alex44]

The new Death Star/Starkiller base design being a bit reducitve and lazy is totally forgivable because they gave us the most clever design for a robot in Star Wars yet.
One film and BB-8 has already taken center stage as a Star Wars icon.

 

[Blader]

It's not a plot hole, because it has nothing to do with the plot. It's just missing information. Nearly every question anyone has about this movie is due to cut content and deleted scenes. The film should probably have been about 20 minutes longer and been allowed to breathe and build the world more.

The Resistance is a militarized force that actively combats and harasses the First Order. The Republic is the official new government of the worlds that rebelled against the Empire, and officially they disavow the Resistance because they are in an unsteady truce with what remains of the Empire. (The First Order is NOT the Empire, it's basically a cult that sprang up within the remnants of the Empire...another thing the movie doesn't make clear.) There is a deleted scene with the woman the movie seems to expect us to know when the Hosnian system is destroyed, in which we learn she is Leia's liason to the Republic, and Leia goes into how much the Republic hates her for refusing to cease hostilities against the Empire. Leia implies that if she went to the Republic capital herself, she would be quietly assassinated.

It's clear that Lucasfilm was terrified of talking for one second about the politics or governmental situation of the galaxy in TFA, and that left a lot of unanswered questions floating around. You can thank the people who whined and screamed about "OMG POLITIX BORING" regarding the prequels for that.

And none of this information is important. What does it matter if we know Leia doesn't go the Hosnian system because of assassination fears? We already assume she's at the Resistance base because she's the leader of the resistance; being worried about being killed by the Republic is unnecessary, and confusing, information. What does it matter if the First Order is the remnants of the Empire or a separate entity that worships and emulates the Empire? The end result is the same; the distinction is, again, unnecessary and confusing.

Maybe it sounds better in action, but that deleted scene of Leia sending her liaison to the Hosnian system sounds awful on paper, and doesn't even make any sense. Leia is urging this woman to plead their case to the Senate, but why would that even work? By her own admission, Leia has urged the Senate to act against the First Order multiple times before and they've ignored her or haven't taken her seriously, so what changes this time? She doesn't present any new info or tell her to tell them about Starkiller, she just says (paraphrasing) "The First Order is dangerous and going to strike."

It's nice background info if you want to know it, but it's pretty tangential to the actual plot of the story, which is more about Rey/Finn/Han's journey than it is the political dynamic of the Republic and First Order.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

The new Death Star/Starkiller base design being a bit reducitve and lazy is totally forgivable because they gave us the most clever design for a robot in Star Wars yet.
One film and BB-8 has already taken center stage as a Star Wars icon.

Lol, you can't be serious?

 

[Brakke]

The resistance is internal to the first order - some of the planets / governments subordinate to the supreme leader have presumably split away and (most likely) seek to join the New Republic, which is a separate galactic state. In the film they state that the New Republic is funding/equipping the resistance.

I do agree that the resistance using all of the same imagery and iconic spacecraft as the original rebel alliance was probably unnecessarily confusing if you hadn't read up on some of the promotional materials and paid attention to the crawl.

Yeah the Resistance / Republic thing is whack. One thing that occurred to me is that we would expect the Republic Fleet to be composed primarily (or conspicuously) of Star Destroyers and TIE fighters as formerly-Imperial systems joined the New Republic. The Rebels had a super small fleet, they bring all of their capital ships to Endor and that's like half a dozen. So there's some aesthetic convenience to be gained by sweeping away the Republic and focusing on a core more closely tied to the hard-scrabble Rebellion.

 

[a916]

Luke Skywalker:
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has redeemed his father. He's completed his training and has become the last Jedi Knight. He must pass on what he has learned and he must restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire. We're left to imagine a future in which Luke builds a new Jedi Order and restores peace and justice to the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens, we learn that Luke has failed to continue this legacy. The Empire has returned in the form of 'The First Order' and is now continuing their campaign of destruction and terror. In response to this, Luke has "vanished".

He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

You mean the guy that ignored Yoda and Ghost Kenobi and left his training half way to rush head first into a whooping? You're surprised that with zero experience training Jedi, he has a mistep in training Jedi?

I'm sure it's been used in this thread and countless others on how this dampens the happiness of the OT ending, but it bears repeating:

If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story. - Orson Welles

 

[Ashhong]

You make a lot of assumptions about what the characters think and feel that you couldn't possibly know to be true. You have no idea if Luke only saw his lightsaber as a weapon. It was his father's and handed down from Obi-Wan. It very well could have meant more to him.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The most respectable thing that VII could do is emulate the laziness of the franchise.

LOL. Those are some great expectations.

Lol, you can't be serious?

I like BB-8. R2 is a little shit.

It's nice background info if you want to know it, but it's pretty tangential to the actual plot of the story, which is more about Rey/Finn/Han's journey than it is the political dynamic of the Republic and First Order.

I think the problem is that people wanted more than nothing. As you say, it's tangential; it didn't need to take over the narrative, but people find themselves wondering why they should care about the Republic aside from "they're the good guys."

 

[Shaanyboi]

They use the death star again. Changing little things doesn't make up for that.

They literally don't even bring up what it is or what it can do until the final third of the movie. It seems the Resistance doesn't even know about it until the first shot was fired.

Those plot points are given way too little attention and aren't explored nearly enough.

Those points take up most of the characters' interactions with one another.

Finn is on the run until Rey is captured. Until then, he has nothing to fight for, but suddenly she is his reason for turning around and facing them head-on.

Han sure as hell isn't going to talk to two kids about his son, but 3/4 of his scenes with Leia all bring up Ben.

Rey literally tells Han, Maz, and Finn that she has to stay on Jakku. When Maz tells her there is more to her, Rey refuses until at the end when she finally embraces that fact.

And almost all of Kylo Ren's most personal scenes deal with his father or his confliction.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Yeah the Resistance / Republic thing is whack. One thing that occurred to me is that we would expect the Republic Fleet to be composed primarily (or conspicuously) of Star Destroyers and TIE fighters as formerly-Imperial systems joined the New Republic. The Rebels had a super small fleet, they bring all of their capital ships to Endor and that's like half a dozen. So there's some aesthetic convenience to be gained by sweeping away the Republic and focusing on a core more closely tied to the hard-scrabble Rebellion.

Using an old Imperial fleet probably wouldn't send the right message to planets the New Republic approached to join them.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Lol, you can't be serious?

???? At this point it almost seems like you have a bigger hate boner for the new film than Vader has for Obi-Wan. BB8 got universally positive reception and is unlike any droid seen in Star Wars.

LOL. Those are some great expectations.

Not expectations, mockery. I'm making fun of the fact that people are unironically collectively praising the OT, including Jedi, while criticizing VII for doing what Jedi did much, much better.

Seriously, with the release of VII, I'm starting to understand why PT fans can't stand OT fans :v

 

[DrEvil]

The Empire is to The New Order
As
Al Qaeda is to ISIS.

different crew, similar ideals. 30 years later. It's not unheard of, Considering recent world history.

 

[Aselith]

Yeah the Resistance / Republic thing is whack. One thing that occurred to me is that we would expect the Republic Fleet to be composed primarily (or conspicuously) of Star Destroyers and TIE fighters as formerly-Imperial systems joined the New Republic. The Rebels had a super small fleet, they bring all of their capital ships to Endor and that's like half a dozen. So there's some aesthetic convenience to be gained by sweeping away the Republic and focusing on a core more closely tied to the hard-scrabble Rebellion.

You're not considering the economics of it. There were planets supplying the Rebels with ships during the hard scrabble years which is where those ships came from. You can be DAMN sure those planets are going to want them buying ships from them now that they can collect taxes and pay for them properly not former Imperial shipyards.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

???? At this point it almost seems like you have a bigger hate boner for the new film than Vader has for Obi-Wan. BB8 got universally positive reception and is unlike any droid seen in Star Wars.



Not expectations, mockery. I'm making fun of the fact that people are unironically collectively praising the OT, including Jedi, while criticizing VII for doing what Jedi did much, much better.

Seriously, with the release of VII, I'm starting to understand why PT fans can't stand OT fans :v

You can't be serious, as in, you think that the design of a comic relief character alone redeems the rest of the film's flaws.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You can't be serious, as in, you think that the design of a comic relief character alone redeems the rest of the film's flaws.

Crazy Heart wasn't a terribly interesting film, but Jeff Bridges made it entirely worthwhile.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

Crazy Heart wasn't a terribly interesting film, but Jeff Bridges made it entirely worthwhile.

You're comparing Jeff Bridges to BB-8. Listen to yourself.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You're comparing Jeff Bridges to BB-8. Listen to yourself.

You're right

Sorry, BB-8

 

[Xe4]

The new Death Star/Starkiller base design being a bit reducitve and lazy is totally forgivable because they gave us the most clever design for a robot in Star Wars yet.
One film and BB-8 has already taken center stage as a Star Wars icon.

Star Wars and everything aside, BB-8 is a dope robot. I met the parents whos son supposedly invented the thing, and the way they talked about it and him made it seem that they were telling the truth. It would be a strange thing to lie about anyhow.

I'm fascinated how it works, but I don't want to look it up yet because I like coming up with different ways it could move. Right now I'm thinking shifting weights inside the body to move it forwards and backwards, and magnets holding the head steady.

Regardless of how it works and who invented it, it's dope.

 

[Skellig Gra]

If the Empire could build a planet destroying weapon, it makes sense the villains that are trying to emulate them and now find themselves the underdogs would do the same.

Not really, how would a marginalized movement have those kind of resources? Seems completely ridiculous but hey it's a space fantasy.

 

[Brakke]

You're not considering the economics of it. There were planets supplying the Rebels with ships during the hard scrabble years which is where those ships came from. You can be DAMN sure those planets are going to want them buying ships from them now that they can collect taxes and pay for them properly not former Imperial shipyards.

Oh man. This is exactly the kind of thing that would be impossible to make because the Prequels put everyone gun shy on Galactic Politics but I would love this as a concept. For a series that is constantly making and wrecking inconceivably large super weapons, they don't really ever examine the military-industrial complex situation at all.

 

[DrEvil]

You're comparing Jeff Bridges to BB-8. Listen to yourself.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

The plot of TFA was really weak in a lot of areas, and the OP covered most of the reasons why. It doesn't drag the movie down too much IMO though. It's weird to say it, but the Death Star 3.0 battle really just felt like window dressing for the drama between the individual characters (which was the interesting part of the movie and what much of the focus was on). A lot of the movie felt like that, really.

I think your main issue is with the movie being built as a trilogy. Not excusing it, but it is what it is.

Yeah.