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[Steve Youngblood]

I'll just note for those confused about seeing a post of mine was that I replied to Atmej assuming that it was a post directed at me, but realized my mistake upon reading the whole post. Sorry Atmej (if you even saw it). I basically just took issue with you for what I thought was accusing me of not watching the video.

 

[Green Card]

it's quite funny to see the debate about that conversation since this tv show made actually much worse but no one seems to care about that

No they do. Don't worry they do.

I'm all for localizations doing what they can to improve the (typically poor) writing but I don't think they needed to change this.

 

[Starsailor]

In the scene being discussed? Absolutely.

.

you know that in the books priest take peacefully the power in the city right? And they did that violence thing (for the homosexual!) in the tv show only because "violence is cool".

 

[Morts]

you know that in the books priest take peacefully the power in the city right? And they did that violence thing (for the homosexual!) in the tv show only because "violence is cool".

I really don't get what you're getting at? It's different from the book, so what?

I think the rest of my post which you didn't quote is more relevant.

 

[Lalalandia]

2.) Corrin decides to help* her so he spikes her drink with a drug that makes women appear as men and men as women. She is immediately notified of this and is in no way tricked into falling in love with a ''woman'' that's actually a man. Soleil comments that fem Corrin is not her type. Then they do ''special training where Corrin does his best to imitate a cute girl so that Soleil would get used to cute girls and stop (almost) fainting. Corrin's imitation is pretty good: ''That was perfect, I darn near passed out!'' They take a break and Soleil goes to take a look at her unappealing male comrades to see if they turned into cute girls. Corrin tries to stop her.
*To be clear, Corrin wants to help her stop (almost) fainting and not stop liking girls.

The problem is that he informs her after giving her the potion, if I tell you after I've given you LSD it's too late you're still going to trip balls.

At 17:08 in the video the MC returns to speak to Soleil, he's already drugged her at this point and then he tells her about it and the roleplay plan. He doesn't say 'Hey let's roleplay' and then she drinks the potion it's more 'Hey you're doped up now, let's roleplay'. Soleil has NO agency here, she explained her problem and the MC decides to help by doing things to her without her explicit consent. That she later goes along is moot because her only other option is to hide until the drug wears off as she can no longer recognise anyone (based on her not recognising the now female MC).

I can see how this is meant to come off as a sort of cute, clumsy plan between freinds but there is no way to dress up secretly drugging your mates, that is just wrong.

 

[Starsailor]

Well i was talking about game of thrones because i don't undrstand the debate on this topic, even if a tv show did worse about homosexual and few get angry about that.

In fact Nintendo adapt the game to the country. I think it's a good job, and once again i will say it: in Japan, what nintendo did with this scene is uncommon too. We're talking about nintendo, a family company.

 

[muteki]

My problem with this whole line of argumentation is that I feel it's unfair to assume that the only reason they might want to change it is for reasons of political correctness and not possibly the fact that they want to improve on storytelling elements that might simply seem bad here. Maybe they realize that this attempt at humor just doesn't translate well here and they feel changing it will make it a better product. This is in contrast to a narrative that would suggest that they think the story is fine as is but are afraid that it will upset GLAD over here in the States.

It may be at the core rooted in a desire to release a product with better writing, but it odd to me to see Nintendo issuing an official statement this specific in regards to the scene(s) in question, and it not be in some way motivated by political correctness.

It may not be the only reason for the change, but probably was the reason for coming out with this statement. It is difficult to tell from the original article what prompted the email though, whether they were asked about it directly or not.

 

[CazTGG]

Super glad that they changed this, albeit not completely unexpected. Fire Emblem has a history of changing dialogue/characters (See Marth in Shadow Dragon, Henry in Awakening and many more), most of which are for the betterment of the experience (because that's what editing during localization is supposed to do and is not censorship). That aside, it's just good that they changed something that falls into the "what the hell were you thinking?!" category of writing, though I do hope that they do end up giving her a same-sex relationship option in the localized version (I'm not sure how difficult or feasible it might be to add in one, be it for FeCorrin, not Tharja or another woman character entirely) or, at the very least, that Soleil doesn't get turned into Heather 2.0 any more than she already is.

 

[Starsailor]

Super glad that they changed this, albeit not completely unexpected. Fire Emblem has a history of changing dialogue/characters (See Marth in Shadow Dragon, Henry in Awakening and many more), most of which are for the betterment of the experience (because that's what editing during localization is supposed to do and is not censorship). That aside, it's just good that they changed something that falls into the "what the hell were you thinking?!" category of writing, though I do hope that they do end up giving her a same-sex relationship option in the localized version (I'm not sure how difficult or feasible it might be to add in one, be it for FeCorrin, not Tharja or another woman character entirely) or, at the very least, that Soleil doesn't get turned into Heather 2.0 any more than she already is.

i think it will just a medecine and a "flu" story in US/EU.
"Oh corrin you heal me , marry me!"

 

[Morts]

Asking again for new page: if the scene in question is received differently in Japan than in the US/EU, and if the intent for the Japanese audience is to see it as a funny/cute scene, could editing it for western release (thus avoiding controversy) actually be PRESERVING the artists' intent rather than censorship?

 

[Starsailor]

Asking again for new page: if the scene in question is received differently in Japan than in the US/EU, and if the intent for the Japanese audience is to see it as a funny/cute scene, could editing it for western release (thus avoiding controversy) actually be PRESERVING the artists' intent rather than censorship?

That's not censorship, that's just adapting the game for different society, because this game only have this scene and his not hinted to be a game about homosexuality etc... it's just one scene.

It's not like Deadpool being censorship in China because the WHOLE movie will be...well deadpool style.

 

[Ridley327]

Asking again for new page: if the scene in question is received differently in Japan than in the US/EU, and if the intent for the Japanese audience is to see it as a funny/cute scene, could editing it for western release (thus avoiding controversy) actually be PRESERVING the artists' intent rather than censorship?

It sounds like that they're not actually removing the scene entirely, but they're removing references to the more dubious aspects of the dialogue. If it's meant to be a more lighthearted scene, I can't imagine a scenario where Treehouse wouldn't be keeping that tone while sidestepping any potential cultural landmines.

 

[Dandy Crocodile]

It sounds like that they're not actually removing the scene entirely, but they're removing references to the more dubious aspects of the dialogue. If it's meant to be a more lighthearted scene, I can't imagine a scenario where Treehouse wouldn't be keeping that tone while sidestepping any potential cultural landmines.

Yeah, depending on how it's done I could see it done as a sort of "Okay you be you and I'll play a cute girl. What would you say to me?" to sort of get Soleil comfortable with things and maybe they fall for each other that way?

 

[dimb]

My problem with this whole line of argumentation is that I feel it's unfair to assume that the only reason they might want to change it is for reasons of political correctness and not possibly the fact that they want to improve on storytelling elements that might simply seem bad here. Maybe they realize that this attempt at humor just doesn't translate well here and they feel changing it will make it a better product. This is in contrast to a narrative that would suggest that they think the story is fine as is but are afraid that it will upset GLAD over here in the States.

I mean...the series is kind of filled with storytelling elements that could be dramatically reworked for the better. Targeting the sections that elicited a strong reaction in their mistranslation doesn't necessarily brush up the weakest parts of the game. In Awakening's case the central plotline was dreadfully dull, and that would be my greatest concern moving into Fates. Nintendo's history of editing content through translation rarely seems to be in the interest of improving the weakest parts of the game, and more to do with reworking the pieces of it that could be misconstrued.

Stuff like this also tends to raise other questions for me. Maybe the result of what's been reworked here will improve the game, but what is the cost in terms of manpower to rewrite these trivial side dialogues? Are these the kinds of changes that prevent timely Fire Emblem releases outside of Japan?

 

[Starsailor]

Yeah, depending on how it's done I could see it done as a sort of "Okay you be you and I'll play a cute girl. What would you say to me?" to sort of get Soleil comfortable with things and maybe they fall for each other that way?

or simply "i'm sick i have a flu help me"
I don't know how they will do it in europe because Awakening wasn't censored in EU.

 

[poet at play]

So are you. You want it to be left intact, because that is how it's more agreeable to your beliefs, these being that it should be left intact. You're using circular reasoning to try to pass your preference as morally superior, without bothering to justify why.

Nice try, but I'm arguing that the work reflect the scenario writers beliefs.

One is a selfish approach ("the game should cater to my beliefs"), the other is a selfless approach ("the game should reflect the beliefs of its artists, even if I disagree with them").

Yes, there is subjectivity involved. A good publisher, in my mind, trusts that it's players are intelligent enough to handle a dissenting or disagreeable concept.

My view is that art requires one to be open to the full range of human emotions - offence and unpleasantness are a part of that.

For their censorship, Nintendo seem closer to being a people-pleasing toy production company, rather than a group of artists with something to say, and in this medium, that makes me have less respect for them.

 

[also]

Dude I know the whole context of that conversation, I re-watch ed it to make sure I wasn't going off base with anything.

I'm saying that her drink being drugged without her knowledge did happen. He just told her after the effects came into play.

That was my clarification, and obviously why the scene is dubious

Sorry, I understood that you got the context but I'm juggling multiple tabs so I forgot to edit out your quote at first and was apparently too late.

No matter how many times you say this it won't make the video's interpretation magically more correct.

Should I post that Japanese website a few more times? Thats actual Japanese people who agree that this game's handling of Soleil is gross.

Linking to a Japanese website without translations is useless. I also don't see why it matters that some Japanese people find Soleil's character gross. Them being Japanese doesn't make their opinion right. We have an (hopefully) accurate translation so me and you can judge her depiction ourselves.

I'll just note for those confused about seeing a post of mine was that I replied to Atmej assuming that it was a post directed at me, but realized my mistake upon reading the whole post. Sorry Atmej (if you even saw it). I basically just took issue with you for what I thought was accusing me of not watching the video.

Didn't even see it but no worries. The thread is getting big and hard to follow and my intent of quoting you is hidden in a wall of text. So apologies from me too.

The problem is that he informs her after giving her the potion, if I tell you after I've given you LSD it's too late you're still going to trip balls.

At 17:08 in the video the MC returns to speak to Soleil, he's already drugged her at this point and then he tells her about it and the roleplay plan. He doesn't say 'Hey let's roleplay' and then she drinks the potion it's more 'Hey you're doped up now, let's roleplay'. Soleil has NO agency here, she explained her problem and the MC decides to help by doing things to her without her explicit consent. That she later goes along is moot because her only other option is to hide until the drug wears off as she can no longer recognise anyone (based on her not recognising the now female MC).

I can see how this is meant to come off as a sort of cute, clumsy plan between freinds but there is no way to dress up secretly drugging your mates, that is just wrong.

How can you compare a ''temporary reversed gender perception'' potion to LSD? The potion did not in any way affect Soleil's cognitive abilities, she had the same personality, the same thoughts. All she did after drinking the potion was of her own free will.

Sorry, as I have already stated numerous times in this thread, I really don't see the issue of Corrin spiking Soleil's drink given his intent and the potion's effect. If he spiked it to try and seduce her in his female form, then it would be a problem. A huge problem.

 

[Fencedude]

My heart bleeds for the poor, starving artists who write shitty, lazy, homophobic videogame scenarios.

 

[Fencedude]

...it is when we're arguing the translation?

Like, people getting upset over this isn't an artifact of a bad fan translation.

 

[also]

...it is when we're arguing the translation?

Like, people getting upset over this isn't an artifact of a bad fan translation.

Actually it is because the same misinformation keeps getting repeated. The biggest accusation is that Corrin actually drugged Soleil to make her fall in love with him and that he tricked her in his female form. None of which is true.

 

[SenorArdilla]

What if Corrin just slipped into a dress or gave Soleil some magic glasses in order to help roleplay? It's clear that people are mostly taking offense at the drink spiking.

 

[aeolist]

What if Corrin just slipped into a dress or gave Soleil some magic glasses in order to help roleplay? It's clear that people are mostly taking offense at the drink spiking.

i think the gay conversion theme would still bother some people but i think that part would be less bad without the drugging too

 

[Fencedude]

Literally if female MC could romance her 90% of the complaints would go away. Ideally she'd have at least one other female romance as well. And that would be fine.

Edit the Male MC scenario a bit to make it less skeevy, and you've got a dumbly written but not particularly offensive bisexual character.

The fact that no one at IS looked at htis and went "wait hold on here" is pretty damning, however.

(and its barely been mentioned but Zero and Shara, the male and female bisexual characters, also have tons of issues that make them rather eeehhhh)

 

[SenorArdilla]

SOOOO...

Replace/remove the magic powder.
Make Soleil a bisexual by letting femCorrin S-Rank her.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Sorry, I understood that you got the context but I'm juggling multiple tabs so I forgot to edit out your quote at first and was apparently tood you can judge her depiction ourselves.

Sorry about that

 

[CazTGG]

SOOOO...

Replace/remove the magic powder.
Make Soleil a bisexual by letting femCorrin S-Rank her.

Just to clarify: Soleil is not straight, let alone bi. She constantly flirts with women (Ex: In the ending of the chapter where she's introduced, she's seen flirting with a villager. When Kamui mentions the magic drug, Soleil reminds him that she is into girls and not guys and, if I recall, there's a support conversation in the original where she and another character swap bodies that results in her wanting to check out said character's body). She has a unique ability called "Girl Lover". Short version: She likes women. Her not being able to have a same-sex relationship in the game is baffling, let alone the other support conversations that take a very drastic turn from their A to S support levels.

That said, removing the magical drug and giving her a same-sex option would be one of the better solutions.

Sorry, as I have already stated numerous times in this thread, I really don't see the issue of Corrin spiking Soleil's drink given his intent and the potion's effect. If he spiked it to try and seduce her in his female form, then it would be a problem. A huge problem.

1. He didn't ask if she wanted his help with what he perceived as a problem that needed to be fixed. She was was drugged without her consent. That's not okay, especially since it was the drug that would eventually lead to Soleil falling for MaCorrin. It doesn't matter what his intent was: Drugging someone without their consent is not okay under any circumstances.
2. Corrin may have known the effects of the drug, but he didn't know if they could have had any other side-effects on her, be it physical or mental. For all he knows, this drug could have killed her due to a severe allergic reaction, like sneaking in peanut butter into the sandwich of someone who is allergic to consuming peanuts in any form.

 

[Ala Alba]

Nevermind, not worth it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It's bizarre to me, if I'm getting everything straight (heh), Soleil basically behaves as though she is a lesbian, but all of her S-rank supports are with men.

All that said, addressing the problems with Zero and Shara should be done as well. It's all too frustrating to see LGBT characters depicted as abnormal.

 

[Kinsei]

SOOOO...

Replace/remove the magic powder.
Make Soleil a bisexual by letting femCorrin S-Rank her.

Yes.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

Sorry, as I have already stated numerous times in this thread, I really don't see the issue of Corrin spiking Soleil's drink given his intent and the potion's effect. If he spiked it to try and seduce her in his female form, then it would be a problem. A huge problem.

But she did end up falling in love with the MC because of the potions effects, right? She doesn't have any romantic interest in you until you spike her drink and she sees the MC in a different way while in hallucinogenic state.

 

[Lalalandia]

How can you compare a ''temporary reversed gender perception'' potion to LSD? The potion did not in any way affect Soleil's cognitive abilities, she had the same personality, the same thoughts. All she did after drinking the potion was of her own free will.

Sorry, as I have already stated numerous times in this thread, I really don't see the issue of Corrin spiking Soleil's drink given his intent and the potion's effect. If he spiked it to try and seduce her in his female form, then it would be a problem. A huge problem.

How can I compare a drug that alters perception and can induce visual hallucinations to a 'magic powder' that causes the user to have their perception altered so that they visually hallucinate a gender swap? I'm not sure, let me think.

You don't see him spiking her drink as an issue, I do.

 

[RedSwirl]

Part of me understands the argument that "the artist's original vision should just come through unfiltered so society can judge." I'll even admit most of the otaku games in these discussions were only ever supposed to get attention from a very small subset of people in one country and could probably just float under the radar for society at large to ignore.

The problem with Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and Fatal Frame is that they are published by Nintendo. Nintendo is a mass market company that doesn't really have a separate channel for handling niche games. There's still the feeling that any game it publishes will reflect on Nintendo as a whole, and Nintendo still wants to be seen as a wholesome company. That means conforming to regional culture standards. That Nintendo has even resorted to publishing games with otaku elements in them (or that Fire Emblem has followed the otaku--centered anime trend) is quite telling of what's happened to the company and the Japanese console market as a whole. I feel like any other publisher would have brought those games over unaltered unless they ran into serious problems with the ESRB.

 

[R_thanatos]

SOOOO...

Replace/remove the magic powder.
Make Soleil a bisexual by letting femCorrin S-Rank her.

Pretty much

I'm more intrested in the "replace" option rather than "remove" however.

 

[Crash Station]

Part of me understands the argument that "the artist's original vision should just come through unfiltered so society can judge." I'll even admit most of the otaku games in these discussions were only ever supposed to get attention from a very small subset of people in one country and could probably just float under the radar for society at large to ignore.

The problem with Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and Fatal Frame is that they are published by Nintendo. Nintendo is a mass market company that doesn't really have a separate channel for handling niche games. There's still the feeling that any game it publishes will reflect on Nintendo as a whole, and Nintendo still wants to be seen as a wholesome company. That means conforming to regional culture standards. That Nintendo has even resorted to publishing games with otaku elements in them (or that Fire Emblem has followed the otaku--centered anime trend) is quite telling of what's happened to the company and the Japanese console market as a whole. I feel like any other publisher would have brought those games over unaltered unless they ran into serious problems with the ESRB.

They're Streisand Effecting it. No one gave a shit about Nowi until long after the discussion was relevant because nothing about her was altered beyond a slight toning down of her daughter's conversations. Likely would have been the same with the XCX boob slider or even swimsuit on a 13 year old girl.

 

[MHWilliams]

Asking again for new page: if the scene in question is received differently in Japan than in the US/EU, and if the intent for the Japanese audience is to see it as a funny/cute scene, could editing it for western release (thus avoiding controversy) actually be PRESERVING the artists' intent rather than censorship?

Many in Japan were fine with it, but LGBT Fire Emblem fans did have issues with the scenes and general gay representation.

The latter contention may be possible. We have no idea given a lack of clarification from Nintendo.

SOOOO...

Replace/remove the magic powder.
Make Soleil a bisexual by letting femCorrin S-Rank her.

Pretty much all that needed to be done.

 

[Kaiterra]

Because I'm the author of my own personality, and I choose not to attack the personalities of other human beings I interact with.

Nintendo is a media company which publishes works of fiction and artistic expression.

That's LITERALLY what you came into this thread doing from jump, oh my god, hahahahaha. Wow.

You mean that medieval age where you had books decorated with drawings of couples having sex? or that medieval age where kings married 12 year old girls?


Yes, this is more like a modern otaku pandering stuff, but even in medieval ages this stuff actually happened.

This is actually why I'm pretty okay with that various times there have been incest-related implications in the series, especially in FE4.

 

[SlaughterX]

Conservatives kept bugging Nintendo for the magic powder ruined it for everyone

 

[Paracelsus]

But she did end up falling in love with the MC because of the potions effects, right?

That doesn't explain only heterosexual S-Links, unless all them guys got some of that drug stash. Someone claimed her pick-up behaviour is an act of gimmick because of daddy issues, but even that would still make a mockery out of true lesbians, and thus not cool either way. I mean, did you read the Support conversations with her mother? They were either written by some anime junkie or they were made intentionally very cringe-worthy.

And it's not like we haven't had a pretty similar archetype before in Japanese media.

 

[PtM]

SOOOO...

Replace/remove the magic powder.
Make Soleil a bisexual by letting femCorrin S-Rank her.

No, she would still be a shitty lesbian. Just rewrite her.

 

[pariah164]

After all these posts, now I'm confused. All I read was the OP before posting my comment. If that IS what happens, for real, then Nintendo has the right, and by all means, SHOULD edit it, because drugging a woman, no matter WHAT the reason (unless you're a doctor administering medicine that is needed), is Bill Cosby levels of creeper bullshit.

So, is that the deal? Or did some things get lost in translation? Because I can see that happening. Moon runes are weird.

 

[Fencedude]

And it's not like we haven't had a pretty similar archetype before in Japanese media.

Ah yes.

The game where the main character rapes the non-Japanese girl because she's not Japanese.

 

[Dandy Crocodile]

After all these posts, now I'm confused. All I read was the OP before posting my comment. If that IS what happens, for real, then Nintendo has the right, and by all means, SHOULD edit it, because drugging a woman, no matter WHAT the reason (unless you're a doctor administering medicine that is needed), is Bill Cosby levels of creeper bullshit.

So, is that the deal? Or did some things get lost in translation? Because I can see that happening. Moon runes are weird.

Intentions and her sexuality aside, Soleil is unknowingly drugged by Corrin, yes.

 

[Paracelsus]

Ah yes.

The game where the main character rapes the non-Japanese girl because she's not Japanese.

I'm just saying that some people consider it a misunderstanding, while the ""lesbian" until shenanigans make her fall in love with the mc" archetype does exist.

 

[pariah164]

Intentions and her sexuality aside, Soleil is unknowingly drugged by Corrin, yes.

Then it IS creepy as fuck and needed to be removed.

 

[PtM]

After all these posts, now I'm confused. All I read was the OP before posting my comment. If that IS what happens, for real, then Nintendo has the right, and by all means, SHOULD edit it, because drugging a woman, no matter WHAT the reason (unless you're a doctor administering medicine that is needed), is Bill Cosby levels of creeper bullshit.

So, is that the deal? Or did some things get lost in translation? Because I can see that happening. Moon runes are weird.

The perceived-gender-switch drugging happens, even if it is revealed right afterwards. Later on, main man proposes to her. She says yes, because she fell in love with his female appearance, but loves him now anyway, because Japan. => shitty lesbian

 

[Fencedude]

I'm just saying that some people consider it a misunderstanding, while the ""lesbian" until shenanigans make her fall in love with the mc" archetype does exist.

Majikoi is a bad example because its shitty for all sorts of other reasons.

Also, the point is we should be pulling for moving beyond this sort of thing

(also lol suggesting this is a particularly Japanese problem)

 

[Saucycarpdog]

That doesn't explain only heterosexual S-Links, unless all them guys got some of that drug stash. Someone claimed her pick-up behaviour is an act of gimmick because of daddy issues, but even that would still make a mockery out of true lesbians, and thus not cool either way. I mean, did you read the Support conversations with her mother? They were either written by some anime junkie or they were made intentionally very cringe-worthy.

And it's not like we haven't had a pretty similar archetype before in Japanese media.

My post was not about her sexuality. It was about the implications of the MC spiking her drink. In the end, she only falls in love with the MC after she is drugged.

 

[mugwhump]

Nothing because Nier...in contrast to Fire Emblem....aims for an M rating.

That didn't save Fatal Frame. Heck, that game was digital only.

edit: lol, me and EleventhHourSuperpower coming in with our page-3 quotes

 

[Kinsei]

No, she would still be a shitty lesbian. Just rewrite her.

So is the other bi woman in the game. I'd take Soleil over Tharja 2.0

 

[Pancake Mix]

Edit: Yeah mugwhump, man. Page 3 ftw.

Nothing because Nier...in contrast to Fire Emblem....aims for an M rating.

Actually, even in Japan this got a C rating (15+), which requires a black case on Nintendo hardware, along with D and Z. For reference, Genei Ibun Roku was a B (12+) and had a normal Wii U case.

I'll just use one of the versions to illustrate:

Depending on what the C rating was for, and we know what it was for, an M-rated Fire Emblem would have been an inevitability, unless it was also for violence and intense themes ala Xenoblade Chronicles X which isn't treated any harsher by the ESRB. The reason Fire Emblem If/Fates was given the C almost certainly had to do with its suggestive content.

I'm expecting almost everything else to be intact and for this to be a very hard T from the ESRB.

It's true Neir was a Cero D, but If is right beside it, and not for persistent graphic violence and blood.