Nintendo Removes Controversial Fire Emblem Fates Conversation

Fencedude said:
That raises all sorts of other issues.

Also the actual fix would have been to NOT WRITE SOLEIL AS A LESBIAN IF THEY WEREN'T GOING TO GIVE HER FEMALE ROMANCES

Everything stems from that bad decision. There was no reason her character needed to be that way, but when they decided that "comedy lesbian who will only fuck dudes" was her personality, then it was essentially inevitable we'd end up here one way or another.

Now, they also made another EVEN WORSE decision when writing the Male MC romance, which just made it blatantly obvious how bad it was.

Trying to find ways to "fix" this specific conversation ignores the larger problem present in the very concept of Soleil's character.
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I don't disagree that Soleil, presented as she is, comes off as bi if not a lesbian (Her personal skill only activates when she's near women for Christ's sake) and that they'd have to write-in a completely new character to make her fit with her actual romantic options (And change that skill. Wonder if swapping her personal skill with her father's would work...?). Alternatively, give her additional romantic options. Will require re-writing other characters and making them bi too, but it'd do the job.

Either change though would be pretty drastic for localization. Would be great if they happened, but I'm not entirely hopeful.

Ekai said:
....This is the weirdest defense for a game having gay conversion that I've ever seen. You deny what's happening in it, that gay conversion is somehow funny and then extrapolate that if he were to cross-dress it would be better somehow? Now you're just making trans people the butt of the joke or? I know that he's not being or expressing anything trans by cross-dressing alone (as there's far more involvement of the whole being than that) but people often conflate the two in order to demean transgender people. Those kinds of 'jokes' are used all the time against us and I'm really tired of it. Really, the whole way her character was handled is just a straight up mess. I have no clue how the localization team is going to handle it.
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Was more "Preserving unintended allusions to things is a really bad idea and shouldn't stay in a localization" than "I like gay conversion therapy and that should totally stay in". I'd argue that it's not gay conversion therapy within the context of the conversation. Nothing about the conversation said that to me. Cross-dressing was my solution to avoid allusions.

Context of the character though...I'll admit I was thinking too narrowly as I concentrated on the conversation too much without factoring in the fact that she has no same-sex options, just opposite-sex ones. As I said to Fencedude, I won't disagree her character's a goddamn mess and that a fix like that wouldn't be enough.

-

I throw out solutions as I go along in an effort to convince anti-localization people that localization can benefit everyone. Clearly the cross-dressing one wouldn't be best. Sorry to offend you.
 
34 pages?

Look. She needs an option to hookup with other women. It would only make sense, but let's not think it's completely unreasonable for her to fall for a given man once she gets to know him on a personal level.

Marrying a man doesn't mean she stops loving women. This whole "drugging" thing with the potion is the MC getting ahead of himself - trying to help Soleil with her infatuation problems. There is zero intention of rape or manipulation, because he wouldn't tell her about the potion otherwise.
 
Chi3fster said:
34 pages?

Look. She needs an option to hookup with other women. It would only make sense, but let's not think it's completely unreasonable for her to fall for a given man once she gets to know him on a personal level.

Marrying a man doesn't mean she stops loving women. This whole "drugging" thing with the potion is the MC getting ahead of himself - trying to help Soleil with her infatuation problems. There is zero intention of rape or manipulation, because he wouldn't tell her about the potion otherwise.
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It's easier to just rewrite her. Text change vs. gameplay changes.
 
Chi3fster said:
34 pages?

Look. She needs an option to hookup with other women. It would only make sense, but let's not think it's completely unreasonable for her to fall for a given man once she gets to know him on a personal level.

Marrying a man doesn't mean she stops loving women. This whole "drugging" thing with the potion is the MC getting ahead of himself - trying to help Soleil with her infatuation problems. There is zero intention of rape or manipulation, because he wouldn't tell her about the potion otherwise.
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So it would be perfectly reasonable for a guy who only shows interest in girls to fall for another man "after he gets to know him enough"?

Like, that is what you are saying here
 
MihowZa said:
I just want you to know that I read what you wrote and I understand more what you and some others mean. You're tired of the trope whereas someone like me will see it a few times a year in my anime watching or jRPG and I'll immedietely dismiss it because ( almost ) every side character is a thinly written trope of one kind or another.

'The key is the punchline should never be "Ha ha she likes girls isn't that ridiculous!" '

But this I disagree completely with. Comedy can and should be whatever it wants to be. Maybe you don't find it funny or even find it offensive personally but that's where it should end.
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When are people going to understand that words have impacted in society and human psychology? 'Sticks and Stones' is a lie, bones can heal and recover, words however leaves emotional and psychological wounds that will never properly heal and can last a lifetime. So many LGBT youths go through a lot of pain because of hateful words, mostly "jokes" about their sexuality or gender in school, and are driven to suicide. I see that as murder, you see that as in overreaction and they need thicker skins or ignore it. Sadly it's hard to ignore most of the times because it's around us so much, you can't run away from it. Best you can do is go to a safe zone to escape from reality for a few minutes, sadly a lot of people want to remove those too. Other then that, you can stand up and say no to them, that what they said was wrong and disgusting.

How many times did someone make jokes of my sexuality and gender back in middle school? Almost everyday. Some were funny, my favorite was when a friend said "Do you want me to flip a coin to help you decide who to oogle at today? Heads for male, tails for female." Most, however, just pushed me to a spiraling depression. It got so bad to the point that it was one of the reason why I quit school at 16. Thing is, no one ever physically hurt me, most of it was "jokes" not even directed at me and everyone else thought it was funny except for a few people and especially other queer people like me. It made us feel alien, made us feel we didn't belong nor should we belong. Made us feel like we shouldn't exist because our mere existence is just ludicrous, a joke.

Where's the funny in this anime troupe if so many people treat gay youths as "a phase" in society? A "phase" that people think is childish and has lower respect for you because you don't grow out of that "phase". Where's the joke, how is it funny, when this is something people say and hear everyday for the most part, in almost every area on Earth, to belittle LGBT youths? The fact that so many people defending this garbage writing as a joke and are trying to explain it is telling enough. As the a crazed comic book villain once said:

texplainthejoke.jpg
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Chi3fster said:
34 pages?

Look. She needs an option to hookup with other women. It would only make sense, but let's not think it's completely unreasonable for her to fall for a given man once she gets to know him on a personal level.

Marrying a man doesn't mean she stops loving women. This whole "drugging" thing with the potion is the MC getting ahead of himself - trying to help Soleil with her infatuation problems. There is zero intention of rape or manipulation, because he wouldn't tell her about the potion otherwise.
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I agree with you.

Regarding the 34 pages, it's mostly fencedude if you look at the user activity, and it is a troll acct. He manages to tweet 84 pics of hentai a day and post to neogaf somehow. That's not a single human.

Fencedude said:
So it would be perfectly reasonable for a guy who only shows interest in girls to fall for another man "after he gets to know him enough"?

Like, that is what you are saying here
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Don't feed him anymore.
 
Chi3fster said:
34 pages?

Look. She needs an option to hookup with other women. It would only make sense, but let's not think it's completely unreasonable for her to fall for a given man once she gets to know him on a personal level.

Marrying a man doesn't mean she stops loving women. This whole "drugging" thing with the potion is the MC getting ahead of himself - trying to help Soleil with her infatuation problems. There is zero intention of rape or manipulation, because he wouldn't tell her about the potion otherwise.
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Hoping for other female options was a lost cause since it's easier to remove or replace something more often than not.

Not to mention Nintendo already gave confirmation that she is not bisexual in the PR. A full rewrite of her character would be the most to expect really. Which has definitely been done before.
 
Fencedude said:
So it would be perfectly reasonable for a guy who only shows interest in girls to fall for another man "after he gets to know him enough"?

Like, that is what you are saying here
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Bisexuality.

Sure, the writers didn't spell it out for us with Soleil, but FE isn't centered around romance.

Edit: It's confirmed that she isn't bi? Sheesh. What happened to the writing in this?

Still, you can't write off this convo as gay conversion and drugging and justify omitting it for these reasons. When someone like me thinks of those phrases, I look at them as rather dark and manipulative actions - none of that is the MC's intentions.
 
KirbYuuYuu said:
Hoping for other female options was a lost cause since it's easier to remove or replace something more often than not.

Not to mention Nintendo already gave confirmation that she is not bisexual in the PR. A full rewrite of her character would be the most to expect really. Which has definitely been done before.
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we'll get some slight rewrite of the scene to make it less dumb. I doubt they do a full rewrite of the character.
 
Chi3fster said:
34 pages?

Look. She needs an option to hookup with other women. It would only make sense, but let's not think it's completely unreasonable for her to fall for a given man once she gets to know him on a personal level.

Marrying a man doesn't mean she stops loving women. This whole "drugging" thing with the potion is the MC getting ahead of himself - trying to help Soleil with her infatuation problems. There is zero intention of rape or manipulation, because he wouldn't tell her about the potion otherwise.
Click to expand...

One thing I'd note anytime anybody cites how long a thread has gone on far is that -- more often than not -- it takes two to tango. A topic isn't going to get this long via progressives agreeing with each other for 1600 posts. It takes people disagreeing with them to keep the conversation going.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
One thing I'd note anytime anybody cites how long a thread has gone on far is that -- more often than not -- it takes two to tango. A topic isn't going to get this long via progressives agreeing with each other for 1600 posts. It takes people disagreeing with them to keep the conversation going.
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Heh. I'm surprised that we even care, yet here I am again wanting to know what all the fuss is still about.

Big mistake for them to say that she ISN'T bisexual. That destroyed most the writing revolving her.

This convo really had potential too. -.-
 
The idea of having a certain topic or conversation in a medium is what guides people to that medium. Movies wouldn't be very good if they took out content just because it was deemed immoral or improper. What I don't like is seeing people ask for censorship or apply it because they can. It's why we have a ratings system. All Nintendo does is make their platform family friendly.

It's one thing after next with them.
 
Very upset. Anyone with behind the scenes info knows the only reason this is being taken out is that Bill Cosby threatened to sue NOA for revealing his trademarked conversion process.
 
Northeastmonk said:
The idea of having a certain topic or conversation in a medium is what guides people to that medium. Movies wouldn't be very good if they took out content just because it was deemed immoral or improper. What I don't like is seeing people ask for censorship or apply it because they can. It's why we have a ratings system. All Nintendo does is make their platform family friendly.

It's one thing after next with them.
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Where I disagree here is because I think there's justification to alter outside of just fear of backlash. If I'm on the localization team I understand that some people may think "it's not our job to tamper with the story, it's our job to translate regardless of what some overly sensitive namby pambies may think." But I feel like the rationale for editing this is two-fold:

1.) A direct translation may generate backlash.
2.) What's there is really, really stupid.

That's what I keep coming back to. Even trying to turn off my political correctness filter, the character just comes across as being written in an incomprehensible fashion. People are obviously free to disagree with me about that and argue that they "get her" or that it's funny if you appreciate certain anime tropes. But even trying my best to listen to the arguments that try to debunk this as a non-issue, her arc just seems like nonsensical garbage to me.

Maybe it's still not their place to edit it according to some people's ideals of a localization. But I think it's well within the scope of a proper localization.
 
T.Slothrop said:
Very upset. Anyone with behind the scenes info knows the only reason this is being taken out is that Bill Cosby threatened to sue NOA for revealing his trademarked conversion process.
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I thought it was a magic powder that made her straight, not Jell-o pudding.

Steve Youngblood said:
That's what I keep coming back to. Even trying to turn off my political correctness filter, the character just comes across as being written in an incomprehensible fashion. People are obviously free to disagree with me about that and argue that they "get her" or that it's funny if you appreciate certain anime tropes. But even trying my best to listen to the arguments that try to debunk this as a non-issue, her arc just seems like nonsensical garbage to me.
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"If you have to explain a joke, there is no joke." Like I said, the fact that people are defending this "joke" and spent so much time trying to explain it so people can "get it" is pretty telling that it doesn't work so well. The writing is garbage at best, homophobic at worst. The fact that people are telling me not even Japan gets it or also finds it kinda offensive just strengthens my view that this entire character screams bad writing.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
Yeah. The more I read into this the more I'm convinced that this isn't a situation where any sort of negative commentary against homosexuals was intended. Mind you, I completely understand that some people are going to take offense to this character's portrayal. But even more than that I just feel like they're aiming at some sort of comedy that is just largely incomprehensible.

If I'm the localization team, even if I was the type of person to say "enough with this politically correct bullshit!" (and I'm not), I feel like you'd still have to look at this and surmise that whatever the intentions were are either fundamentally flawed right out of the gate, or are simply something that isn't going to translate to a Western audience. I've listened to the arguments. I'm not trying to be obtuse or disingenuous, and I've tried not to attack it from a progressive angle. I've argued this several times: I'm honestly not sure what they're trying to accomplish with the character. The most generous conclusion I've reached is that it's a bizarrely stupid attempt at comedy that doesn't come close to landing.
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The bolded is my take as well ..it's really nothing but a clumsy attempt that didn't score the goal intended.
Going that nintendo translators often discuss with the original dev teams during many localisations, i'm actually willing to see if they can deliver the original intent better with some minor changes.

That would be the optimal outcome... it's not censorship , it would be an idea that is better explain to a foreign land and thus , it should be a common ground for satisfaction across everyone offended.

I , presonnaly wouldn't mind this but i would certainly dislike them cutting the entire event or serie of sub events of the game. fire emblem already had many times many subtles changes, no need to butcher something like this , even if it could offend.
 
captainpat said:
Did they say anything about other changes? Like that one scene with Camilia.
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Her CG cutscene, based on this picture they recently released and the brief clip of it in the E3 trailer.

00e1PkB.jpg


It's not likely that they censored it.

She's still creepy AF that she loves Corrin too much
 
Northeastmonk said:
The idea of having a certain topic or conversation in a medium is what guides people to that medium.
Click to expand...

I'd love to know what the "conversation" is, here. That bisexuals or gays are inherently hilarious and worthy of pity? That we should help them overcome their "condition"? That spiking women's drinks without their knowledge is perfectly fine as long as it's for the greater good of turning them straight?

Please, enlighten us up as to what the profound message and topic of discussion is, and what thought-proviking, meaningful conversation we would be missing with this change.
 
Fencedude said:
Yes, its linked at the bottom of the site I've posted several times
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That's probably where I saw it then.

I mean even looking at how this character is written objectively I don't see how they can bring her over without re-writing her to some degree. Like... Her character just doesn't make sense to a western or Japanese audience. You have a person who states she prefers women over men and whose conversations almost exclusively focus on her attraction to women- even when being romanced by a dude.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
Yeah. The more I read into this the more I'm convinced that this isn't a situation where any sort of negative commentary against homosexuals was intended. Mind you, I completely understand that some people are going to take offense to this character's portrayal. But even more than that I just feel like they're aiming at some sort of comedy that is just largely incomprehensible.

If I'm the localization team, even if I was the type of person to say "enough with this politically correct bullshit!" (and I'm not), I feel like you'd still have to look at this and surmise that whatever the intentions were are either fundamentally flawed right out of the gate, or are simply something that isn't going to translate to a Western audience. I've listened to the arguments. I'm not trying to be obtuse or disingenuous, and I've tried not to attack it from a progressive angle. I've argued this several times: I'm honestly not sure what they're trying to accomplish with the character. The most generous conclusion I've reached is that it's a bizarrely stupid attempt at comedy that doesn't come close to landing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, like... You can't have it both ways. You can't both claim that the intent was never to offend LGBT people and then at the same time argue that editing the scene to prevent it from doing so is changing its intent. And I don't really think that was the intent either, just that the writers were totally ignorant and nobody caught it. And I'm sure a lot of that ignorance is still going to shine through in the localized version, regardless of this being caught, considering how much heavy lifting is needed in regards to Soleil, but ideally they will manage to rewrite this in a way that is both more sensitive and makes more sense (considering it's a failure in both aspects).
 
Kaiterra said:
Yeah, like... You can't have it both ways. You can't both claim that the intent was never to offend LGBT people and then at the same time argue that editing the scene to prevent it from doing so is changing its intent. And I don't really think that was the intent either, just that the writers were totally ignorant and nobody caught it. And I'm sure a lot of that ignorance is still going to shine through in the localized version, regardless of this being caught, considering how much heavy lifting is needed in regards to Soleil, but ideally they will manage to rewrite this in a way that is both more sensitive and makes more sense (considering it's a failure in both aspects).
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They either need to rewrite her dialogue so she fetishizes men instead of women or make her romanceable to women based on the supports I've read from her >.>

Edit:
she straight up says she'd prefer a relationship with a woman but can't actually get romanced by one.
 
diaspora said:
That's probably where I saw it then.

I mean even looking at how this character is written objectively I don't see how they can bring her over without re-writing her to some degree. Like... Her character just doesn't make sense to a western or Japanese audience. You have a person who states she prefers women over men and whose conversations almost exclusively focus on her attraction to women- even when being romanced by a dude.
Click to expand...

Even more weirdly: she can be romanced by all dudes - but no woman. lol.
 
diaspora said:
They either need to rewrite her dialogue so she fetishizes men instead of women or make her romanceable to women based on the supports I've read from her >.>

Edit:
she straight up says she'd prefer a relationship with a woman but can't actually get romanced by one.
Click to expand...

There's always the hacking community making it possible for Soleil to S Rank with other girls like Owain's kid.
 
diaspora said:
Even on the n3DS XL? Has 4chan lied to me?!
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You need a copy of Cubic Ninja if you want to run homebrew on 10.4, but yes, homebrew on N3DS 10.4 still works

diaspora said:
They either need to rewrite her dialogue so she fetishizes men instead of women or make her romanceable to women based on the supports I've read from her >.>
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There's already a character that fantasies about men,
Niles' daughter, Eponine
, there's even a support between her and Soleil where it's a poorly written version of a Yaoi vs Yuri debate.
 
I wonder if they will overall not completely rewrite her personality/trope. Even her unique skill ingame is based on her flirting with women
 
Steve Youngblood said:
Where I disagree here is because I think there's justification to alter outside of just fear of backlash. If I'm on the localization team I understand that some people may think "it's not our job to tamper with the story, it's our job to translate regardless of what some overly sensitive namby pambies may think." But I feel like the rationale for editing this is two-fold:

1.) A direct translation may generate backlash.
2.) What's there is really, really stupid.

That's what I keep coming back to. Even trying to turn off my political correctness filter, the character just comes across as being written in an incomprehensible fashion. People are obviously free to disagree with me about that and argue that they "get her" or that it's funny if you appreciate certain anime tropes. But even trying my best to listen to the arguments that try to debunk this as a non-issue, her arc just seems like nonsensical garbage to me.

Maybe it's still not their place to edit it according to some people's ideals of a localization. But I think it's well within the scope of a proper localization.
Click to expand...

I see a piece of work as being a whole instead of an audience. As one might pick up an old painting from the 18th century. Kid's games, racing games, and sports games. They may all look the same and some could be pitched out with the rest of the .99 cent games. What I understand is that one version is the version by the creator regardless of its purpose on the market. I feel that video games have evolved since the days of a world being built for the very first time. Now it has to go through a board and the consumer base is also analyzed. It's not that it's because I agree with what happens in the game. It's that I believe in the ultimate complete version or a director's cut. I do see your point in that the grand picture it is just not worth it.
 
Northeastmonk said:
I see a piece of work as being a whole instead of an audience. As one might pick up an old painting from the 18th century. Kid's games, racing games, and sports games. They may all look the same and some could be pitched out with the rest of the .99 cent games. What I understand is that one version is the version by the creator regardless of its purpose on the market. I feel that video games have evolved since the days of a world being built for the very first time. Now it has to go through a board and the consumer base is also analyzed. It's not that it's because I agree with what happens in the game. It's that I believe in the ultimate complete version or a director's cut. I do see your point in that the grand picture it is just not worth it.
Click to expand...

But the thing is, not even the Japanese audience really liked it either. Putting aside any moral arguments, it's just straight up bad and nonsensical writing and to modify it even if it's not for the sake of PCness/SJWs would be a step forward considering how badly written the original is. I don't think anyone would really complain had EA stepped in and "censored" ME3's original ending.
 
Imo reading through this, I think there's really nothing here to complain about. It seems a few sensitives spun this to be more serious of an issue then it actually is. I'd say leave it in instead of going the PC route.
 
Another48Hours said:
Imo reading through this, I think there's really nothing here to complain about. It seems a few sensitives spun this to be more serious of an issue then it actually is. I'd say leave it in instead of going the PC route.
Click to expand...

*slow claps*

Thank you for your new and exciting insights that have never been mentioned before in this thread
 
Northeastmonk said:
I see a piece of work as being a whole instead of an audience. As one might pick up an old painting from the 18th century.
Click to expand...
You do realize most old paintings that are considered "classics" were commissioned by rich people, right?
What I understand is that one version is the version by the creator regardless of its purpose on the market. I feel that video games have evolved since the days of a world being built for the very first time. Now it has to go through a board and the consumer base is also analyzed.
Click to expand...
Hint: it's always been that way. Only the scale has changed.

Besides, a director's cut is not necessarily the best version. I wouldn't want to see a director's cut of Star Wars episodes I-II-III.

If some content is badly written garbage in its original version, it should be edited/improved.

Surely there are many examples where localization improved on the original content. This notion that the original is always inherently superior is really quite baffling.
 
Another48Hours said:
Imo reading through this, I think there's really nothing here to complain about. It seems a few sensitives spun this to be more serious of an issue then it actually is. I'd say leave it in instead of going the PC route.
Click to expand...
You honestly don't find issue with a romance involving a drugged woman being ok with being drugged and falling in love with the person who drugged her?
 
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