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[metalslimer]

I wasn't defending all Sanders supporters. I was attacking the idea that Sanders supporters who do and say stupid things are white men.

They're not. That's it.

Privilege doesn't have to refer to white people you know. I think Stacey dashs privilege has blinded her to the plight of the African American community for example

 

[mo60]

One thing I'm interested in watching is, if it seems like Donald "I beat China all the time" Trump is going to pull away with it and the attention cools down on the GOP, I wonder if more attention on DNC will lead to higher voter turn outs.

I bet you that will happen.If trump scares people they will vote to make sure he does not win.

 

[MartyStu]

Clinton had South Carolina in the bag but she was still there meeting with community leaders. Sanders flew over on his way to Minnesota. He didn't even try.

Right, because he probably knows what we all know: it would not have mattered.

That, and quite frankly, his campaign organization is pretty cruddy.

A more competent campaign would have tried anyway. And still failed, but at least it would have closed him to this line of attack.

 

[TyrantII]

Also you can't have it both ways. Either Sanders is inspiring the youth or he isn't. Reality is showing that he isn't. Youth love him but they're voting on reddit instead of at the polls.

Have to check tomorrow but I heard the youth vote was at 19%, which is good 2008 like levels. But, they're not as pro Bernie as expected and more split.

Bernie handling better on the equality issue, while Clinton on the jobs issue.

 

[Miletius]

This is a really great post.

And like another poster mentioned, the weird sports-like mentality that some seem to have towards politics is mildly disconcerting, to say the least.

The sports-like interest in politics is what has kept me sane. I'd imagine it's the same for a lot of people. To be clear, I like politics and I care about issues. I prefer some candidates and sometimes they lose. Taking an analytic interest in the mechanisms behind campaigns
allows myself (and others, I'd imagine) to enjoy certain aspects of politics without getting too upset about things that I can't change. I don't consider that disconcerting. It's simply shielding against some of the uglier realizations of life.

 

[Chezzymann]

Although trump's winning, he's winning by a lot more narrow margins than I'd thought. Cruz is right there with him in most the states. Although since rubio isn't dropping out anytime soon I'd imagine it might be impossible to stop trump despite that.

 

[SneakersSO]

Voters choose who they vote for, though.

And yet, if Trump does get elected, it will be because more voters came out for him than any other candidate (ideally).

I'm not telling people who to vote for or why. People should be doing their homework and making up their own minds on something as important as an election. I did mine, and I can't bring myself to vote for Hillary. If Bernie never ran as a democrat, and was independent this whole time, I'd still be voting for him in the GE. The only candidate the DNC decided to put forth was Hillary, and I can't vote for her after all the things I've read. If others share that sentiment, good for them. If not, good for them too.

 

[boiled goose]

Show up...vote. That's their power. Instead those that don't will just post on reddit about it being a conspiracy.


Also you can't have it both ways. Either Sanders is inspiring the youth or he isn't. Reality is showing that he isn't. Youth love him but they're voting on reddit instead of at the polls.

I dont get this. It is not one or the other. He is inspiring the youth vote. He leads this demographic HUGELY. Now, he is not inspiring them enough. That's fair.

 

[jgwhiteus]

This is a more bigoted view than anything Trump has said.

Hillary supporters: "If you don't vote for Hillary in the general then you are an idiot. You are young and clueless. You're ignorant. You're racist. You don't care about America. You know nothing about politics."

Have you considered the possibility that some people just plain don't like her?

Um, wow. Yeah, being called ignorant and privileged and having your feelings hurt is just as bigoted and damaging as Trump calling Mexicans rapists and murderers, threatening to deport immigrants' family members, and coyly dancing around denouncing the KKK, a hate group which has viciously murdered black people!

You've pretty much reinforced that poster's point about privilege - to you, "bigotry" is about hurt feelings for being called stupid. There are groups in the US for whom "bigotry" means literally being shot in the street for walking home by themselves or doing nothing at all.

And you're free to not like Hillary (or Sanders, or any other candidate). But to be able to "waste" a vote IS a privilege, a privilege some groups such as women and blacks have had to fight and sometimes die for, and a right that many people in the world still don't have access to. So yeah, you're free to do as you see fit with your vote - including not making one - but you should also recognize the inherent privilege in being able to make that choice in the first place.

It is NOT about privilege. It is not. Millennials are the first generation of Americans that will do worse than their parents in a very long time. They are DROWNING in student debt. The jobs are not paying enough. They cant buy houses. They cant have kids without it ruining their lives. Blue collar Democrats are in a similar position. Underemployed, no careers. All the wealth going upward.

I don't disagree with you, but I think the poster's point about "privilege" wasn't to say "millenials are a privileged group who are well off", but to say, "people don't recognize their own privilege when they say they're going to make a protest vote to make a point, because the reality is they're probably still going to be fairly okay compared to the rest of the world, while for others the consequences are far too real and terrifying to ever "waste" a vote that way."

And if people don't vote because they want to "send a message", honestly the only message most former Bernie supporters will send is "young liberals aren't reliable voters", which is the exact same message they've sent in every past election, and only reinforces the status quo that their voices won't be taken seriously.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Privilege doesn't have to refer to white people you know. I think Stacey dashs privilege has blinded her to the plight of the African American community for example

White people, straight people, men.

Doesn't matter. Stop assuming shit about people's race, orientation or gender because of dumb shit they do and say.

It's pathetic.

 

[MThanded]

Have to check tomorrow but I heard the youth vote was at 19%, which is good 2008 like levels. But, they're not as pro Bernie as expected and more split.

Bernie handling better on the equality issue, while Clinton on the jobs issue.

538 said youth vote was down.

 

[vicissitudes]

I'm fine with either democratic candidate. Sad to see some people don't actually care about the issues their candidate is rallying behind.

Especially sad for me as a black male. Knowing that people who are supposed to be my compatriots are willing to go vote for trump is disheartening. Those people aren't progressives. I'm sorry if that offends you but it's the truth. And it's a scary one. What are their true intentions? Smile in your face and act like they care about some social issues but honestly they are swept up in the hype?

My candidate's (Bernie) biggest issue by far is getting corporate money out of politics.

Out of Hillary and Trump, only one is taking in huge amounts of corporate donations and SuperPAC money. And it's not Trump.

But sure, keep telling me I don't care about issues, I'm a moron, and I don't care about black people. The belittlement is only confirming my Trump vote, and it's not winning anyone over to your cause.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Right, because he probably knows what we all know: it would not have mattered.

That, and quite frankly, his campaign organization is pretty cruddy.

A more competent campaign would have tried anyway. And still failed, but at least it would have closed him to this line of attack.

He didn't have to win, he couldn't win but he could have narrowed those margins. Instead he got blown out all over the South. It's amazing he's successful for two reasons his fire and his ideas because he's run a shit campaign beyonf that and his staff is awful

 

[pigeon]

Right, because he probably knows what we all know: it would not have mattered.

That, and quite frankly, his campaign organization is pretty cruddy.

A more competent campaign would have tried anyway. And still failed, but at least it would have closed him to this line of attack.

I mean, it's actually worse than that.

Bernie spent a lot of money and invested a lot of resources in South Carolina. He just didn't go there.

So it's hard to argue he just knew it was a lost cause. He tried really hard. Just not personally.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

I wasn't defending all Sanders supporters. I was attacking the idea that Sanders supporters who do and say stupid things are white men, seemingly without question.

They're not. That's it.

And the people metalslimer was talking about aren't Sanders supporters.

If you'd move to Trump then you don't actually care about Sanders's policies, period.

And again, it wasn't that they're white men, but they clearly show lack of regard the awful shit they're supporting with Trump.

Trump. Not Sanders.

 

[MThanded]

My candidate's (Bernie) biggest issue by far is getting corporate money out of politics.

Out of Hillary and Trump, only one is taking in huge amounts of corporate donations and SuperPAC money. And it's not Trump.

But sure, keep telling me I don't care about issues, I'm a moron, and I don't care about black people. The belittlement is only confirming my Trump vote, and it's not winning anyone over to your cause.

This the worst post I have read on neogaf in a long time.

You don't care about my issues. I'm glad you were willing to admit it openly.

You also are drinking the trump falsehoods about his campaign funding. He is the corporation. Bernie has been anti trump and you support him but are still planning to vote for trump if he doesn't get the nomination. That is wild.

SMH

 

[metalslimer]

White people, straight people, men.

Doesn't matter. Stop assuming shit about people's race, orientation or gender because of dumb shit they do and say.

It's pathetic.

It doesn't mean men either I just used an example of a minority woman....

 

[Mailenstein]

Wow, guess it's time to embrace your new president Trump, America.

 

[Sectorseven]

Although trump's winning, he's winning by a lot more narrow margins than I'd thought. Cruz is right there with him in most the states. Although since rubio isn't dropping out anytime soon I'd imagine it might be impossible to stop trump despite that.

These are States that should play more to Cruz's base. The fact Trump is doing as well as he is is impressive in its own right. Once we get past Florida the remaining States should lean more in Trump's favor.

 

[boiled goose]

538 said youth vote was down.

It is scary how Republican turnout is breaking recent records but Dem turnout is under 2008. not a good sign.

 

[VanCityGamer]

With it looking like Cruz is still very much in the running, I'd be curious to see how he is expected to fare in the remaining states?

 

[MartyStu]

He didn't have to win, he couldn't win but he could have narrowed those margins. Instead he got blown out all over the South. It's amazing he's successful for two reasons his fire and his ideas because he's run a shit campaign beyonf that and his staff is awful

There is no doubt in my mind about this.

Even so. Had Clinton not run this year, he would have mowed down the competition.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

My candidate's (Bernie) biggest issue by far is getting corporate money out of politics.

Out of Hillary and Trump, only one is taking in huge amounts of corporate donations and SuperPAC money. And it's not Trump.

But sure, keep telling me I don't care about issues, I'm a moron, and I don't care about black people. The belittlement is only confirming my Trump vote, and it's not winning anyone over to your cause.

so to keep corporate money out of politics, youre going to vote for the corporation itself?

do you see why no one takes this stance seriously?

 

[Good Job Bob]

I mean, I don't think it ignores that at all? You can very easily argue that Hillary is a better choice for the presidential nomination and that Bernie's campaign is a good thing. I certainly would! Equating supporting Hillary with wanting Bernie not to even have run is not well considered.

Characterizing it as a horse race is also really inaccurate. I care a lot about winning because I want to advance progressive policies. To do that, you have to win. That's just how elections work. So wanting to win is, like, kind of a requirement for wanting anything progressive to actually happen.

If your goal is to express how progressive you are, rather than to get progressive policies in place, then Sanders is probably a better choice.



I mean, I think the problem is that Sanders is a terrible advocate for socialism. I prefer my socialism not married to isolationism and protectionism, and to be intersectional.

I am certainly hopefully for socialist candidates in the future who can avoid the trap of white populism and who can actually win a general election.

If you think Bernie's campaign is a good thing, how can you also think he is a terrible advocate for socialism? Surely if he was a terrible advocate for socialism, his campaign would be a bad thing?

Sanders is not what a more modern, fresher advocate for socialism would look like but he has paved the way for those candidates in the future. That alone makes him at the very least not terrible, I would say.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

My candidate's (Bernie) biggest issue by far is getting corporate money out of politics.

Out of Hillary and Trump, only one is taking in huge amounts of corporate donations and SuperPAC money. And it's not Trump.

You do realize that Trump openly admitted to buying politicians, right?

 

[Prodigal Son]

It doesn't mean men either I just used an example of a minority woman....

So exactly how is this minority woman, according to your original post, in a position of privilege?

 

[Kyosaiga]

NPR's Planet Money had a great episode using 20 different economists explaining why some of these ideas were awful. It was intriguing to hear how many economist disagreed with free college and a 15/hr minimum wage.

I can't decide which of his plans is worse:free college or his health care plan.

But considering his college plan would be deemed unconstitutional with current precidents I lean toward that'

 

[GYODX]

I'm fine with either candidate. Sad to see some people don't actually care about the issues their candidate is rallying behind.

Especially sad for me as a black male. Knowing that people who are supposed to be my compatriots are willing to go vote for trump is disheartening. Those people aren't progressives.

I agree with you. It's disheartening that Bernie supporters would switch over to Trump. It simply should not happen.

I am decrying the fact that so many self-titled "mature, experienced voters" are so fanatical about their own candidate that they hand-wave away any and all criticisms and would rather mock and belittle the (generally young and politically inexperienced) "Berniebros" than extend some sort of olive branch.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I dont get this. It is not one or the other. He is inspiring the youth vote. He leads this demographic HUGELY. Now, he is not inspiring them enough. That's fair.

He's inspiring the basic same number that votes every election (NH being the one exception) to vote for him. That's it. That's not inspiring. Inspiring means a large turnout. Inspiring means being a deciding factor in a close State. None of that has happened. Period. The youth want to be heard and respected but refuse to speak.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I still find it incredibly amusing that someone would say that Trump is not beholden to other moneyed interests. Okay, but it's because he is moneyed interests.

His tax plan is awful and benefits people like himself immeasurably more than everyone else, while creating a massive budget hole.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

With it looking like Cruz is still very much in the running, I'd be curious to see how he is expected to fare in the remaining states?

He was supposed to establish a big lead early because he's weak later on: http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/delegate-targets/

His target today was 384 302 delegates... he fell far short of that.

 

[boiled goose]

I don't disagree with you, but I think the poster's point about "privilege" wasn't to say "millenials are a privileged group who are well off", but to say, "people don't recognize their own privilege when they say they're going to make a protest vote to make a point, because the reality is they're probably still going to be fairly okay compared to the rest of the world, while for others the consequences are far too real and terrifying to ever "waste" a vote that way."

My only argument is that from my personal experience (and some support from the polls), it is actually the white well off Hillary supporters that are the ones with real privilege that can afford to continue the status quo. All while condescendingly wrapping themselves in the minority defense flag. It's complete bullshit to be honest imo.

 

[pigeon]

It is scary how Republican turnout is breaking recent records but Dem turnout is under 2008. not a good sign.

Primary turnout and general turnout don't correlate.

 

[MThanded]

I agree with you. It's disheartening that Bernie supporters would switch over to Trump. It simply should not happen.

I am decrying the fact that so many self-titled "mature, experienced voters" are so fanatical about their own candidate that they hand-wave away any and all criticisms and would rather mock and belittle the (generally young and politically inexperienced) "Berniebros" rather than extend some sort of olive branch.

I don't know anything about that stuff. Never used the term Bernie bro. Like I said I'm fine with whoever gets the nomination.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I still find it incredibly amusing that someone would say that Trump is not beholden to other moneyed interests. Okay, but it's because he is moneyed interests.

His tax plan is awful and benefits people like himself immeasurably more than everyone else, while creating a massive budget hole.

This is why I could never vote trump, and why other sanders supporters should wise up.

 

[Macam]

If you don't want to vote for Clinton or Trump, write in your desired candidate for president, and then vote the rest of the ticket. There's more to the election than just the president and a significant part of the reason nothing gets done is because of Congress.

Just vote.

 

[davepoobond]

anyone contemplating a Sanders -> Trump flop is missing the point of the Sanders campaign. IMO, of course.

 

[MThanded]

I still find it incredibly amusing that someone would say that Trump is not beholden to other moneyed interests. Okay, but it's because he is moneyed interests.

His tax plan is awful and benefits people like himself immeasurably more than everyone else, while creating a massive budget hole.

He has done a great job of making people believe he isn't. It seems clear as day but apparently it's not even clear to some current Bernie supporters.

Bernie has railed extremely hard against trump. I don't get it.

 

[MartyStu]

My candidate's (Bernie) biggest issue by far is getting corporate money out of politics.

Out of Hillary and Trump, only one is taking in huge amounts of corporate donations and SuperPAC money. And it's not Trump.

But sure, keep telling me I don't care about issues, I'm a moron, and I don't care about black people. The belittlement is only confirming my Trump vote, and it's not winning anyone over to your cause.

As a Bernie supporter myself. I do not quite understand your position.

Trump may not be beholden to corporate interests, but that hardly means that once in office his policies would be focused on limiting them.

In fact, every indication from his tax plan to his book suggests quite the opposite.

The best you can hope for is that it would not be a priority. But is all the other damage he is is then capable of doing worth a noop on this issue?

 

[crisdecuba]

Okay, I was inspired by the tweet earlier in the thread:

https://youtu.be/pjS0JCAakNI

It was my first attempt at user After Effects, so please be gentle.

 

[excelsiorlef]

My only argument is that from my personal experience (and some support from the polls), it is actually the white well off Hillary supporters that are the ones with real privilege that can afford to continue the status quo. All while condescendingly wrapping themselves in the minority defense flag. It's complete bullshit to be honest imo.

Spoilers Clinton's got the minority vote. Try again.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Just wanna throw in my voice with the others that will be voting for either Bernie or Jill Stein in the GE, regardless of who wins the nomination. It's been discussed in other threads - I just wanted the other Bernie supporters who can't bring themselves to vote for Hillary to know that you aren't alone.

I know many on GAF will dog pile on you when you share this, but don't let that discourage you. You havr your reasons, whatever they may be. Just make sure you do go out and vote - I don't care who it's for, just do it.

I know this post is probably going to be meaningless to you considering the bile I spewed in my first post addressing you, but I just wanna say again: sorry that I was such an unmitigated shithead to you the other day.

(And for what it's worth, +1 on the actual subject matter of this post. Even if you're not gonna vote for Clinton, you may as well still make your voice heard, because it's ultimately your choice.)

Primary turnout and general turnout don't correlate.

In fairness, how many recent data points do we really have where we had two races without an incumbent?

 

[Big Baybee]

The left can lock up this country for decades and are going to blow it due to stupid ass in-fighting.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Spoilers Clinton's got the minority vote. Try again.

Clinton also polls better with higher income, older folk. Do you reckon those are minority voters?

 

[Box]

I mean, I don't think it ignores that at all? You can very easily argue that Hillary is a better choice for the presidential nomination and that Bernie's campaign is a good thing. I certainly would! Equating supporting Hillary with wanting Bernie not to even have run is not well considered.

Characterizing it as a horse race is also really inaccurate. I care a lot about winning because I want to advance progressive policies. To do that, you have to win. That's just how elections work. So wanting to win is, like, kind of a requirement for wanting anything progressive to actually happen.

If your goal is to express how progressive you are, rather than to get progressive policies in place, then Sanders is probably a better choice.



I mean, I think the problem is that Sanders is a terrible advocate for socialism. I prefer my socialism not married to isolationism and protectionism, and to be intersectional.

I am certainly hopefully for socialist candidates in the future who can avoid the trap of white populism and who can actually win a general election.

You don't have to win to change minds. If you're pushing a new idea, it doesn't always work out the first time, but you still want to push it as far as it can go.

Anyway, you're kind of like backing up from my original point. I based my argument mostly on two things:
1) There is a significant voice that wants Bernie Sanders's candidacy to go away in order to make it easier for Hillary to win the Presidency.
2) Before his candidacy, Bernie Sanders was very well regarded here on GAF.

I can believe that you don't personally agree with either statement, but this is my assessment of the general mood of the forum. It seems like a lot of people got nervous about Sanders as a candidate when he started to challenge Clinton's "coronation".

 

[boiled goose]

I still find it incredibly amusing that someone would say that Trump is not beholden to other moneyed interests. Okay, but it's because he is moneyed interests.

His tax plan is awful and benefits people like himself immeasurably more than everyone else, while creating a massive budget hole.

You do realize that Trump openly admitted to buying politicians, right?

These are both very very fair points.

That said, I think if this conversation happens Clinton ends up looking worse.
I was bribing politicians vs I was the one being bribed. The bribee looks MUCH worse IMO, especially because Clinton is the one that has said she has not been influenced while Trump (even today) has said the system is broken because of these outside interests.

Again, you guys are right that Trump is not clean here, but I think if this conversation happens Clinton EASILY looks worse.

 

[MThanded]

The left can lock up this country for decades and are going to blow it due to stupid ass in-fighting.

This almost happened on Obama's first term. Hillary supporters were trying to paint Obama as sexist. It could have gone really bad. Luckily the party rallied around him.

 

[metalslimer]

My only argument is that from my personal experience (and some support from the polls), it is actually the white well off Hillary supporters that are the ones with real privilege that can afford to continue the status quo. All while condescendingly wrapping themselves in the minority defense flag. It's complete bullshit to be honest imo.

You seem to be thinking that I'm talking to all sanders supporters when my original post was only aimed at the sanders supporters who say they will support trump instead despite him being a complete 180 on all the issues Bernie cares about.

 

[hawk2025]

My candidate's (Bernie) biggest issue by far is getting corporate money out of politics.

Out of Hillary and Trump, only one is taking in huge amounts of corporate donations and SuperPAC money. And it's not Trump.

But sure, keep telling me I don't care about issues, I'm a moron, and I don't care about black people. The belittlement is only confirming my Trump vote, and it's not winning anyone over to your cause.

Ah, yes.

The best approach to getting corporate money out of politics is to elect the corporation guy himself.

Just brilliant. If you don't like backseat drivers, hand 'em the key.

 

[TyrantII]

I still find it incredibly amusing that someone would say that Trump is not beholden to other moneyed interests. Okay, but it's because he is moneyed interests.

His tax plan is awful and benefits people like himself immeasurably more than everyone else, while creating a massive budget hole.

The corruption from crony appointments should he get into office will make Grants stint look amateurish.