Microsoft unifying PC/XB1 platforms, Phil implies Xbox moving to incremental upgrades
- Thread starter dancrane212
- Start date
//DEVIL//
Member
i should look at the new updated xbox one coming later this year or early next year as i look for the new 3ds vs the old 3ds.
if Nintendo can do it. so can sony. if it means i am getting better screen ( in this case resolution ) faster loading and better hardware in general. then i will do upgrade. my games will run fine so why the complains ? if anything, it will make me feel more secure that my hard earned games i purchased will not go un played down the road because the new system will not be able to play them .
if Nintendo can do it. so can sony. if it means i am getting better screen ( in this case resolution ) faster loading and better hardware in general. then i will do upgrade. my games will run fine so why the complains ? if anything, it will make me feel more secure that my hard earned games i purchased will not go un played down the road because the new system will not be able to play them .
Business
Member
I think this is a shift of strategy that goes well beyond selling their Xbone stock. About the investors, I don't think anyone holding MSFT at the moment cares much about what happens to Xbox... I know I wouldn't.
NippleViking
Banned
So they target the lowest common denominator of consoles/Xbox for x-amount of time, until deciding it's time to supplant that with the second oldest model. Higher-end Xboxs would brute-force said fancy frills. Obviously there would need to be feature parity - targeted at lowest common denominator -, but the bracket of visuals that is stuff like resolution, frame-rate, shadows, AA, etc. could always be exceeded and raised.
You still have the pressing business problem that the console cycle 'fixes'. No one will develop for the XB1.1 if the XB1 has the biggest install base. You can mandate features like Nintendo mandated motion controls but they're already starting behind.
The issue is worse if the XB1.1 comes out and doesn't sell well. Then why would they bother. They could target 21m users on the XB1 or 100k on the XB1.1. This problem gets worse with each successive generation.
I described it as a catch 22 which is why it hasn't worked before. The install base buys into the potential for games. The games follow the install base. Console generations build up the demand for a new machine then push one out with hype. Breaking that cycle means permanent smaller install bases at each level making it less likely to have games for them.
PC's have this issue as well as many of the biggest games aim for broadest base and the guys with top end machines more or less just run games that aimed lower with higher frame rates and high detail. The mean power of the ecosystem determines the most sensible target. It is held back by consoles as well because the scope of what can be done is often set by the lowest power console the game makers are considering. When the last generation launched PC ports jumped in complexity and the average scope of a PC game increased.
I do't see this strategy working out as peachy as you do.
Dreams-Visions
Member
No they weren't.
NippleViking
Banned
Why would the public be forced to upgrade any more than usual though? Debatably the centre of the console industry is stands on accessibility and low cost-of-entry, but that doesn't have to change; low cost-of-entry can persist, but alongside a higher, and enthusiast entry-point. It's hardly as though the majority of people would be impelled to upgrade each year/two years.
What specifically are you worried about, with regards to the PC side of this announcement?
Caipirinha
Member
They don't but you know what they're like, it's all about confidence. If Microsoft up and said ok guys we're out of consoles as of today, the stock would take a sizeable hit from lack of confidence in the company's leadership. As it stands there's just enough kool aid to keep that from happening - although stock did indeed take a dip on the announcement.
Being that they are leaving the console business and focusing on the PC and on a future Apple TV competitor, both of which will run Windows 10 apps, it's easy for them to wind down the Xbox division and sell the box as a Windows 10 machine that will "continue to benefit from development on other Windows 10 platforms".
Much in the way that an Ouya can benefit from continued development of Android games - it's not the specific target but with some minor adjustments it will technically run on the box. If there are enough enthusiasts then these boxes can eek out some revenue and that's presumably what Microsoft is hoping to do here, and if that enthusiast market is large enough then they'll get some upgraded SKUs at some point so they can run 2016 PC games with controller support at medium settings on their TV.
And it will stay like this until MS offers any details about this strategy. Why did they think this was a good idea? Just more confusion.
Garrett 2U
Member
I fully disagree with the sentiment that the UWP violates the spirit of a console.
First of all, it will not affect the front end user experience. The consoles are going to work the same as you'd expect them to work today. The only difference is it will continue to receive support in parallel with future generations.
Plus they are accustomed to purchasing new iPhones and iPads when they want an upgrade.
Secondly, it really isn't much of a difference to developers either. This type of abstract approach to targeting platforms is exactly how it works in the mobile/tablet and PC space.
Also, the UWP is a bit more ambitious than supporting Candy Crush. Rise of the Tomb Raider is a Universal Windows Application*.
It's very easy to brush this off as Microsoft trying to play the PC audience again or that Xbox is dying.
But the reality is this UWP has been an incredibly ambitious project and it is ready now, with Windows 10.
We are going to see new Xbox models with various specs coming out in the next few years, as quoted by Phil in the OP.
And as according to logic. They developed this UWP so that software can target a variety of hardware configurations.
*source for ROTR targeting UWP
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/01/28/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-debuts-on-windows-10/
There is no reason they can't call it a new console even though it's fully backward and forward compatible.
Just as there is an iPad 2, 3, 4 all running the same OS.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Haha, so true. If he'd said "I expect a shorter Xbox console gen this time round and we plan to keep the Xbox One relevant beyond this gen" it wouldn't have got nearly the same reaction, despite amounting to the same thing.
Chalupa Batman
Member
Heh, I see what you did there.
The console industry still exists only because a very large number of customers don't want to deal with this upgrading tiering business. Leaning away from that doesn't sound like a great business plan for a console.
They still need to sell the first batch. Short upgrade offerings when folks aren't ready have not gone well before (32x, saturn).
The notion may appeal to us, the core fanbase. But we own PC's and like that shit; we are not the majority of the game market.
Killroyskbg
Member
For me this is a stupid idea I mean why when you are MS and have 90%+ of the PC gamers on your OS. Just release everything there instead. I dont want to feel like having to "upgrade" my console when I also have a PC. If it was going forward everything will be BC that would be fine and not such a hard thing to do with the simalarities in the new consoles and PC but uppgrading my console (except harddrive) is a stupid idea IMO.
Isn't this the trend and what it's actually implied? That every game will be released on Windows 10 and the future xboxes will actually be low costs PCs running a simplified Windows 10 OS?
Edit: people think about upgrade as replacing your GPU when in fact the point I think is that they will just have new fixed config every 3 years or so (depending on what the market finds acceptable).
No more work? You are joking, right? You have just quadrupled the testing time for a start, and what about all the Indie devs?Since they are basically PC´s they are all running the same game on the same operating system with different hardware.
No more work for the devs as they are used in PC gaming since the beginning of time
irrotational
Member
This thread is kind of funny - so much mis-use of language, wild speculation based on the vaguest details, and prophecies of doom and gloom as well as glorious futures.
I guess it's what makes forums both the best, and worst, way to get and then discuss news.
My 2 cents:-
The Xbox one is already a locked down PC, as is the PS4. The Xbox one is running Win 10 already - it just hides it.
The choices are:-
1. Do you want complete hardware revisions every 7-10 years, generally throwing out/losing your old games, but in theory getting GFX ahead of the benchmark PC curve due to subsidised hardware at the start of the generation. Plus other benefits of development/gfx for one system.
Don't forget that on the dev side there have to be big lurches too as everyone starts making games for the new console exclusively, both consoles, or just the old console.
2. Do you want incremental revisions every 1-3 years, generally keeping backwards and forwards compatibility, dev is a bit harder but essentially is implementing GFX sliders.
Games will transition in more of a grey/gradual way as the profits from making the game work on the oldest platforms will become less than the profits of making the latest and greatest game for the newest platforms.
There will be lumps and bumps along the way e.g. when Xbox 2017 transitions to 16 gigs of RAM rather than 8 and devs have a real choice whether to use that extra space to make a game "better", or stick with 8 for full compatability, or build in an option for both.
As another view - look at the world of porting - games could launch on the newest 2 or 3 boxes and then have a separate smaller/cheaper team working on a stripped down port for older boxes.
IMHO it's all the same process just sped up. Even 6 or 7 iterations of an Xbox will be a hell of a lot easier to test/dev for than the almost infinite number of PC configurations....
The word "Xbox" means Brand first, Platform second and hardware console third.
I guess it's what makes forums both the best, and worst, way to get and then discuss news.
My 2 cents:-
The Xbox one is already a locked down PC, as is the PS4. The Xbox one is running Win 10 already - it just hides it.
The choices are:-
1. Do you want complete hardware revisions every 7-10 years, generally throwing out/losing your old games, but in theory getting GFX ahead of the benchmark PC curve due to subsidised hardware at the start of the generation. Plus other benefits of development/gfx for one system.
Don't forget that on the dev side there have to be big lurches too as everyone starts making games for the new console exclusively, both consoles, or just the old console.
2. Do you want incremental revisions every 1-3 years, generally keeping backwards and forwards compatibility, dev is a bit harder but essentially is implementing GFX sliders.
Games will transition in more of a grey/gradual way as the profits from making the game work on the oldest platforms will become less than the profits of making the latest and greatest game for the newest platforms.
There will be lumps and bumps along the way e.g. when Xbox 2017 transitions to 16 gigs of RAM rather than 8 and devs have a real choice whether to use that extra space to make a game "better", or stick with 8 for full compatability, or build in an option for both.
As another view - look at the world of porting - games could launch on the newest 2 or 3 boxes and then have a separate smaller/cheaper team working on a stripped down port for older boxes.
IMHO it's all the same process just sped up. Even 6 or 7 iterations of an Xbox will be a hell of a lot easier to test/dev for than the almost infinite number of PC configurations....
The word "Xbox" means Brand first, Platform second and hardware console third.
Aztechnology
Member
Pretty much. Plus I mean lets be honest, the current crop of consoles are essentially just gimped PC's already. Just a continuation of the current trend.
That's what the console generation do. You grow in scope not just res/AA/FPS.
Compare MGS3 -> MGS4 -> MGS5.
If it was just about resolution why aren't all gamers on PC? What would this approach offer that PC doesn't? Is it going to be that much easier than PC right now? PC's are plug and play now as well. If res/FPS/AA are the only difference then what't the point of this over PC?
Caipirinha
Member
To be fair to Microsoft, that's because this isn't a business plan for a console, it's a business plan to shift remaining stock and salvage value from a soon to be closed division. In that context it's not a bad idea at all, I just hope they don't go too heavy on the kool aid and mislead people that these products will be something they aren't. Then again it will probably be a long time before we see upgraded SKUs if at all, and in the meantime it'll probably just be a free and optional Windows 10 software update which will bring expectations in line pretty quick.
Also to be fair to them I don't think they will go too heavy on the kool aid, this announcement was pretty low key and clear; there won't be a future console, expect support for the current console to come through development on other Windows 10 platforms etc. It's not like they are going full spin here, I don't think they will do that, I think they are probably being very frank internally about the situation and they aren't going to bend over backwards to mislead people into thinking that this is some grand new console vision that consumers should heavily invest in, otherwise this would have been announced at E3 with lots of branding and fanfare and no mention of other platforms or no future consoles.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
Great post. I still take option 2 for me personally. Of course there will be bumps in the road, But I am ready and have good suspension
You can always look at the iOS market and see how devs handled the same issues.
Garrett 2U
Member
This really isn't about making an upgradable console. Although it could support that.
This is about separating software and hardware.
Future games won't target Xbox One or PC. They'll simply target one "Universal Windows Platform" which will support both Xbox One, Windows 10, and any other compatible device. (Be that a next gen console or an upgraded console)
You'll get your wish of Xbox games on PC.
Not because Xbox is dead, but because Xbox games will be Universal Windows Apps and Windows 10 is part of the Universal Windows Platform.
PC's are already that.
The barrier is not technology; it's the business end. x86 is also not magic.
wapplew
Member
So, target this "Universal Windows Platform" mean developers don't have to dedicate resource on each devices? No more multiple QA test?
This UWP automatically scale your games accordingly, no effort needed?
Garrett 2U
Member
Now you're just arguing semantics.
The Xbox One is essentially a Windows 10 PC, focused on gaming and entertainment.
Consoles are a set top box, designed for your living room.
PCs are larger machines for an office environment.
Obviously there is a bit more work to developing a UWA than a single platform application.
However, game developers are already accustomed to doing this in the PC and mobile/tablet space.
Killroyskbg
Member
Then why buy an Xbox? Sure it is easier then PC gaming for many but let your PC run that simplified code then without all the other heavy OS features like steam OS. Instead of having to uppgrade both I can put down all my money on the PC.
A PC spec's like a XB1 is as cheap as the XB1. Ease of use is subjective. Most PC's are buy off the shelf plug and play.
MilkyJoe
Member
Cause no one wants to deal with windows in the living room. It will turn on with a controller and it will have the XBox OS ready to play. Al in a pretty little box that sits snugly under your TV. That is the advantage.
And this might be a way to break the traditional generational bridge.
It might work like
Xbox One
Next Box
Next Box 2
All play the games fine, but when Next Box 3 come out Xbox One is no longer supported.
Compact size and cheap price. This is specifically for the people who don't like to get their hands dirty and upgrading their PCs. Or having to set up anything.
Yeah, I would really like to see that. Link to a config?
Caipirinha
Member
I guess some are still finding it hard to see this for what it is? You're not going to have to wait too long for evidence, I would expect E3 to be pretty revealing as to Microsofts interest in the console business going forward.
By all means I hope the enthusiasts here enjoy their Windows 10 boxes, I don't wish any ill of you and certainly not anyone working in the Xbox hardware division, but the situation is super clear already.
By all means I hope the enthusiasts here enjoy their Windows 10 boxes, I don't wish any ill of you and certainly not anyone working in the Xbox hardware division, but the situation is super clear already.
Caipirinha
Member
I thought the same and I think it signals that the Xbox One just isn't generating enough revenue for the corporate leadership to give it the benefit for the doubt until the end of the gen, which is why I expect this E3 to be very revealing. I wouldn't expect much AAA exclusive content at all from now on, I wouldn't expect many high profile deals with third party developers, I would expect a lot of talk about Windows 10 and non-gaming features coming to the Xbox One.
Can UWP scale things automatically? the way iOS games work is that the app's actually contain multiple versions that are optimised for different Iphone/ipod/ipad versions. Some times there are new separate HD versions for retina Ipad's like Tiny wings HD. It may seem seamless to a end user but there is extra work involved.
http://www.raywenderlich.com/42591/supporting-multiple-ios-versions-and-devices
And of course there are the Square Enix games that break on iOS updates, because more work (new APIs) does seem to be involved in getting things to execute on different iOS versions. Extra work is still required even on un upgradable "closed" boxs built by one manufacture, ignoring introducing such apps in the PC space with multiple manufactures and Build your own enthusiast boxes.
wapplew
Member
Ok, so how much more easier say making a game for Xbox one and PC than making a UWA game that run on Xbox one and PC?
Garrett 2U
Member
Do you know any group at the event who left with the impression that Microsoft was leaving the console business?
Because when I read the quotes from Phil Spencer, your hypothesis is the exact opposite of what he explicitly states:
It also goes directly against the conclusion The Guardian came to (quoted from OP):
"What this could mean is that the Xbox One becomes more like a PC, with Microsoft releasing updated versions every year"
Microsoft know they underwhelmed with the Xbox One and consumers responded. They are doing what you said but trying not to look like they are doing a Sega. They will come out with a better Xbox console, support the Xbox One much like today, not transition like new hardware usually does. Microsoft are trying something new while fixing a mistake. If it doesn't work, nothing really changes.
What is with people thinking new hardware every year, I think you might see a refresh every 3-4 years at most.
Sniffynose
Member
I guess this works, so say in 3 years the xbox one-two comes out, it's "more powerful" but still plays all original xbox one games, yet now newer games have the option to use the new power otherwise they default back to 1080pr. Software wise I don't think it would be too bad as long as the dev tools allow scaling to the lower model, but would this also allow upwards scaling of older software (like a true PC)?
It could work, since the architecture wouldn't be changing like they did in the past, but if it is a yearly thing and no forward scaling it's pretty useless.
It could work, since the architecture wouldn't be changing like they did in the past, but if it is a yearly thing and no forward scaling it's pretty useless.
Caipirinha
Member
Broski they are doing a Sega in an era when you can repurpose remaining stock with software updates. If that sells enough there'll be a slightly updated SKU.