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[Odrion]

Same for me. Though Operation Downpour was started by GG so the movement was terrible from the start.

*googles*

Oooohhh mmyyy godddd are some people pathetic. It's just sadness, all the way down.

 

[RomanticHeroX]

Has Nintendo had a history of being more conservative? I’ve always thought of them that way, and this kinda seems like the way they’d prioritize things, if I had to guess.

(Not that I feel like this is necessarily justifiable because of a company’s rep, but I just want to know what other’s perception of Nintendo is.)

Nintendo seems to believe it still operates in America in the 80s, and that no values or expectations of corporate engagement have changed since then. It makes it super fucking difficult to want to support them sometimes.

What a thoroughly disheartening story this has been. It's a shame I only became aware of her because of an organized campaign of harassment, but Alison seems like a smart, cool person, and I hope she lands on her feet soon. That said, I could absolutely understand walking away from games and never looking back.

I think the biggest takeaway from this is that it's long past time for important companies in the gaming industry to officially and unambiguously say that online harassment campaigns are disgusting and will not be tolerated. Nintendo did absolutely the wrong thing here, but that doesn't excuse virtually every other company from also failing to act after months and months of this kind of thing happening. This has been happening long before the GG name was put to it, but instead of emphatically saying harassment has no place in the community, everyone has been too afraid to piss off the angry manchildren they want to buy their games. Silence on the issue is what allows it to continue and it absolutely must end.

 

[hey_monkey]

See also: Every woman still employed at Nintendo.

I'm hearing from a friend that things are a little, uh... tense just now and that there may or not be some social media monitoring going on.

 

[Kamina777]

Ignoring them is what gives them strength. They then go on unopposed and continue to chip away at people. Had the industry not tried to sweep them under the rug then maybe this all could have been avoided.

People conjurimg up gamergate everytime someone got harrassed or doxxed isn't helping those individual situations, especially when its discovered in some situations that the actions were those of a single entity with a personal beef and axe to grind. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft holding a press conference telling people gamergate is bad gives more power to that played out failure of a meme.

 

[Terrell]

In my opinion, suddenly they cared when gamergaters started digging. Either way the stuff Nintendo found was enough for them to let her go.

I hope you're not of the mistaken impression that HR teams stalk their employee's public-facing activities night and day and that because they didn't find whatever it was they found on their own that it somehow means they wouldn't have done so in any other context.

I've seen that notion floated around far too much in this ongoing discussion.

Entirely unsurprising that Nintendo would do this. Seriously, Nintendo would be the company that decides that the best approach is to cause people to harass, threaten, and stalk people in the industry, and now GG knows that Nintendo will fire anyone that they want them to. Saying that you don't condone harassment, Nintendo, is fucking empty, because your actions to the harassers speak only to them as "GamerGate won."

It really makes me kind of apprehensive to support Nintendo given this situation. :/

Yes, keep giving Gamergate power and credit for this. That sounds like a perfectly good idea that doesn't bolster their numbers among the less-than-savory lurkers of GAF. Not at all.

 

[Opto]

Eh, Blizzard has proven in the past that it really doesn't give any play to GG. If they tried it with Blizzard, I imagine that the result would just be GG looking like tools.

Has there been a large Blizzard focus like the Rapp situation, though? a quick google shows that Blizzard has only engaged with gators back at BlizzCon 2014.

 

[kiryogi]

I'm hearing from a friend that things are a little, uh... tense just now and that there may or not be some social media monitoring going on.

Well considering that leak Brianna Wu posted I wouldn't blame them.

 

[DrForester]

People conjurimg up gamergate everytime someone got harrassed or doxxed isn't helping those individual situations, especially when its discovered in some situations that the actions were those of a single entity with a personal beef and axe to grind. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft holding a press conference telling people gamergate is bad gives more power to that played out failure of a meme.

I think it would be great is the big three came right out and told them to piss off.

 

[sflufan]

There is no doubt that the way that Nintendo has handled this entire situation has been nothing short of disastrous and they should be rightfully pilloried for it.

This should be a case study in how not to approach a situation like this because it appears that you caved in to "questionable" external pressure even if the actions are justifiable within the overall context of your business policy.

Just utter incompetence on the part of the firm.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

That's what I mean, in the previous thread people were pointing to Bayonetta as a contradiction to Nintendo's policies and as a sort of symbolism about how they feel about women.

You know, somehow.

The argument is not "Bayonetta is how Nintendo feels about women," the argument is "it's hypocritical and makes no sense for Nintendo to fire someone over risque modeling when they just published Bayonetta 2 and Fire Emblem Fates."

So one of two things is happening here:
1) Alison's "moonlighting" was something significantly more NSFW than what we know.
2) Nintendo was waiting for an excuse to fire her (not an uncommon practice for big businesses.)

 

[KingBroly]

Has there been a large Blizzard focus like the Rapp situation, though? a quick google shows that Blizzard has only engaged with gators back at BlizzCon 2014.

Considering Overwatch is their first major simultaneous console release, it's probably going to escalate quickly.


In regards to Nintendo, I hope they make some policy changes to make sure this kind of shit doesn't happen again.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

Unless you can tell me what her second job was you are just speaking out of your ass. If we find out her second really was something that in no way conflicted with Nintendo, ill be right there with you. Everyone's throwing around baseless accusations when we don't have the all the facts.

I'm including the actual firing in there, but it's not all I'm talking about. I'm talking about how Nintendo's been handling this since she started getting harassed.

If you want to discount the firing, I disagree, but that's not the end of the discussion. Their silence before that is equally damning and has nothing to do with her having a second job. It has to do with them not having the strength to say that they stand behind the people they employ because they're afraid of loudmouthed internet bigots.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I hope you're not of the mistaken impression that HR teams stalk their employee's public-facing activities night and day and that because they didn't find whatever it was they found on their own that it somehow means they wouldn't have done so in any other context.

I've seen that notion floated around far too much in this ongoing discussion.



Yes, keep giving Gamergate power and credit for this. That sounds like a perfectly good idea that doesn't bolster their numbers among the less-than-savory lurkers of GAF. Not at all.

Ah, so kind of like how we have to ignore the terrorist group known as GamerGate, then they'll stop

If you truly think that GG only exists and operates by feeding off attention, you are truly ignorant of this situation. Ignoring them, refusing to credit them with something they absolutely were responsible for, does literally nothing more than put less blame on a group that will take credit for it regardless and continue doing this shit unchecked. And in refusing to give credit to GG, we also take the responsibility away from Nintendo for emboldening them on their harassment campaigns.

 

[charlequin]

yeah, and that's why I said it's weird they made a statement on it. like, they could have fired her for anything, and kept a whole pack of trump cards in their back pocket if it came down to it. I know very well how this stuff works. Actually naming a reason to the public somewhat locks them in to that particular reason

I figure they wouldn't have if it weren't a big public story.

We already had the Racists Getting Fired thread, In which people found it funny people would purposely get people fired from jobs on twitter comments.

I know I've certainly learned a lesson about the consequences of that sort of thing in the last two years and come to a much more unilateral position about rejecting it, and I hope many others have as well.

 

[partyphone]

This is so true it hurts

Like massive duck said in the other thread : "ssdd"

sorry. : (

i really, really hope i'm just being over pessimistic. but i don't think that i am. the AAA space has never been a welcome place for women and i can't see that every really changing. the only thing i see happening is a bunch of major players collapsing and smaller studios with more progressive outlooks rising to replace them. like, this is an industry that still gives cliffy b work. it has a very long way to go.

 

[eudaemonic]

Well, I was going to post something but I think you summed up my feelings pretty well.

It's absolutely shitty that a bunch of women-haters like GG might have been able to dig up something that led to Nintendo firing Mrs Rapp, but from what they and she said, it sounds as though she probably wasn't a good fit for them as a PR representative to begin with. It can hardly be surprising that a company whose output is strongly aimed at children would have a problem with their reps talking about rape in public and if her second job (whatever it was) happened to have a similar conflict of interest and risked being made public, assuming no-one initially knew it was her, Nintendo probably felt they had no choice. If you're one of the public faces of the company, you have to accept responsibility that what you do and say will be taken as representative of that company. In the case of a children's company, particularly one as straightlaced as Nintendo, making contentious political statements - particularly related to sex - getting visible tattoos and piercings, and perhaps having a second job which was also a bad fit for company image, will not go down well regardless of the sex of the representative involved. Blaming industrial sexism in such a case would seem churlish at best. I hope Mrs Rapp finds a new job quickly and one where she feels better able to express herself without feeling under constant scrutiny, but suggesting Nintendo caved into GG pressure would seem, based on the limited information available, an extremely simplistic version of what was likely a complicated situation for both parties, even if it does sink the soul that GG got what they wanted.

 

[kiryogi]

Considering Overwatch is their first major simultaneous console release, it's probably going to escalate quickly.


In regards to Nintendo, I hope they make some policy changes to make sure this kind of shit doesn't happen again.

What policy changes would that be? Because everything seen so far, this is standard company protocol.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

https://twitter.com/alisonrapp/status/715362765326553088

That's the tweet that's missing from the OP.

But basically read the QuixoticNeutral post.

I think the focus needs to be on what can be done to stop the harassment/GG going forward (and whether Nintendo being publicly supportive of Rapp earlier would have helped that), and not whether Nintendo should have fired her or not.

I don't think gamers can do much about it besides not allowing them spaces where they can flourish, this is work for the government and the police.

 

[Terrell]

Ah, so kind of like how we have to ignore the terrorist group known as GamerGate, then they'll stop

Uhh, no. There's a gulf of difference between acknowledging their existence and their repulsive behaviours and actively giving them points on their scoreboard. You do understand that, right?

 

[Opto]

I hope you're not of the mistaken impression that HR teams stalk their employee's public-facing activities night and day and that because they didn't find whatever it was they found on their own that it somehow means they wouldn't have done so in any other context.

I've seen that notion floated around far too much in this ongoing discussion.



Yes, keep giving Gamergate power and credit for this. That sounds like a perfectly good idea that doesn't bolster their numbers among the less-than-savory lurkers of GAF. Not at all.

Us going "YOU DIDN'T WIN" doesn't stop the fact that they got what they wanted

 

[SneakersSO]

The argument is not "Bayonetta is how Nintendo feels about women," the argument is "it's hypocritical and makes no sense for Nintendo to fire someone over risque modeling when they just published Bayonetta 2 and Fire Emblem Fates."

So one of two things is happening here:
1) Alison's "moonlighting" was something significantly more NSFW than what we know.
2) Nintendo was waiting for an excuse to fire her (not an uncommon practice for big businesses.)

Just because a company will publish risque material, doesn't mean they want their public facing spokesman going around publishing risque things, especially if the company hasn't signed off on it.

 

[MrCunningham]

That's absolutely what it feels like to me.

Yeah... I doubt they could have any legal ground if they fired her for a couple personal opinions that she made years ago in a Twitter post. And they also couldn't just fire her for the GG controversy, if it was something that was on her own time. I would assume that they didn't like being associated with either, so they looked through the Nintendo employees guidelines and found a reason to fire her through her moonlighting stint. Though I guess in this case it was the GG group that redirected Nintendo to her moonlighting under an anonymous name.

That would be some really vindictive shit from the GG group if true.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Uhh, no. There's a gulf of difference between acknowledging their existence and their repulsive behaviours and actively giving them points on their scoreboard. You do understand that, right?

Timeline:

1. GamerGate tried to get Allison Rapp fired

2. Allison Rapp got fired

And apparently, the only way that GGers connect those two events is if other people tell them that they're connected.

 

[blankempathy]

sorry. : (

i really, really hope i'm just being over pessimistic. but i don't think that i am. the AAA space has never been a welcome place for women and i can't see that every really changing. the only thing i see happening is a bunch of major players collapsing and smaller studios with more progressive outlooks rising to replace them. like, this is an industry that still gives cliffy b work. it has a very long way to go.

Of course itll change. Its been changing over the years. Gaming has changed so much as far as the player base and those creating the games since the 90's. Is it going to change over night? Hell no. Real change takes time.

 

[Brakke]

They are learning Japanese, for the explicit purpose of propagandizing to Japanese people about how feminists and xenophobes are censoring games as a means of attempting cultural imperialism. No joke.

Yep. I check in on KiA every week or so just to see what's up and this whole "Japan is our kindred spirit" thing they've been on for a little while is booooooonkers.

 

[kiryogi]

I figure they wouldn't have if it weren't a big public story.



I know I've certainly learned a lesson about the consequences of that sort of thing in the last two years and come to a much more unilateral position about rejecting it, and I hope many others have as well.

Hold a second there, while I absolutely believe In freedom of speech and all. If you're sprouting off racial bigotry online socially(or any harmful comments for that matter) , the employer would have every right to not be involved In such a horrible individual.

 

[Laevateinn]

They are learning Japanese, for the explicit purpose of propagandizing to Japanese people about how feminists and xenophobes are censoring games as a means of attempting cultural imperialism. No joke.

Well, I say to any Japanese person who might come into contact with these people: 外人なんて相手にすんなや.

 

[Nanashrew]

Yep. I check in on KiA every week or so just to see what's up and this whole "Japan is our kindred spirit" thing they've been on for a little while is booooooonkers.

If any of them went to Japan they'd get a rude awakening because Japan is no promised land for nerds. At all.

 

[Crocodile]

Man coming back to all this new info kind of has my head reeling. It's hard to make heads or tails of what's going on. I don't feel informed enough about all the details (which we'll probably never know) to say much other than repeat that GG is a piece of shit. This is not the manner in which reasonable adults handle differences. You don't harass people or intrude into their privacy just because you disagree with them (and it seems it was even more misplaced here since she wasn't responsible for any of the things they might have been upset about).

 

[Terrell]

Timeline:

1. GamerGate tried to get Allison Rapp fired

2. Allison Rapp got fired

And apparently, the only way that GGers connect those two events is if other people tell them that they're connected.

You tell people who might not have been GGers that even people outside of GG are giving them credit for it, confirming that they get results, as though they deserve it.

Gamergate deserves NOTHING from us. I will acknowledge what they did, but I will never acknowledge it as a "win" for them as you did. Just another set of acts in a long line of misery-inducing bullshit.

 

[prag16]

Unless you can tell me what her second job was you are just speaking out of your ass. If we find out her second really was something that in no way conflicted with Nintendo, ill be right there with you. Everyone's throwing around baseless accusations when we don't have the all the facts.

This is basically what I came in here to say. The discussion here is deteriorating, and may be destined for the same fate as the first topic.

She obviously doesn't want to tell us what the other gig was. And she has her right to her privacy there. But yes, without that information all the pitchforks pointed at Nintendo are a little premature.

I'll also echo what a few have said about the tattoos and piercings. For her to seemingly be oblivious to the ramifications of those choices struck me as odd. Anywhere I've ever worked, tattoos and piercings to the visible extent she has would have precluded hiring in the first place. Adding new ones during employment? Tough to say, but definitely minimum highly frowned upon for anyone in a visible role in a customer-facing part of the organization.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You tell people who might not have been GGers that even people outside of GG are giving them credit for it, as though they deserve it.

This isn't credit, this is blame. GG will champion this as their big victory. If your proposal is to lie and pretend, to allow GG to continue to be viewed as neutral to many people instead of a dangerous hate group, then I think you have a pretty shit proposal that does nothing to help and everything to hurt.

 

[charlequin]

So I have heard about GG I have usually stayed away from the subject as I did not know what it was. I am now confused please enlighten me. They are a group of people that harass women in the gaming industry just for being a woman? like no other reason then they are a woman?

There are a lot of ugly and unpleasant details but that is essentially correct.

Yes, keep giving Gamergate power and credit for this. That sounds like a perfectly good idea that doesn't bolster their numbers among the less-than-savory lurkers of GAF. Not at all.

This is just a fancy way of dressing up the "don't feed the trolls" concept, which is a thoroughly disproven (and frankly, craven) response to the problem.

 

[Kamina777]

This is basically what I came in here to say. The discussion here is deteriorating, and may be destined for the same fate as the first topic.

She obviously doesn't want to tell us what the other gig was. And she has her right to her privacy there. But yes, without that information all the pitchforks pointed at Nintendo are a little premature.

I'll also echo what a few have said about the tattoos and piercings. For her to seemingly be oblivious to the ramifications of those choices struck me as odd. Anywhere I've ever worked, tattoos and piercings to the visible extent she has would have precluded hiring in the first place. Adding new ones during employment? Tough to say, but definitely minimum highly frowned upon for anyone in a visible role in a customer-facing part of the organization.

The discusson is doomed to die, there isn't one just an extremely one sided echo chamber where the two sides of the issue are saying just enough to not lose favor.

 

[Hard]

There are a lot of ugly and unpleasant details but that is essentially correct.

Let's not generalize too much here.

 

[Lime]

I figure they wouldn't have if it weren't a big public story.



I know I've certainly learned a lesson about the consequences of that sort of thing in the last two years and come to a much more unilateral position about rejecting it, and I hope many others have as well.

Yeah I think some people's sense of justice can be too personal and vindictive regardless of ideology. I know I probably should've spoken out more when people call for someone to be fired, such as when that Xbox One guy lost his job over classist comments on Twitter.

 

[razoftblend]

From the information we have so far, I am surprised Nintendo kept her as long as the had. Very few companies do that.

I work in a printshop for a beverage distributing company. It is a multimillion dollar company, but it is still family-owned. Because of that, they tolerate more things such as tattoeoed hands/neck or stuff. At the same time, they tend to ignore some proper methods of complying with local laws. Corporate companies, such as Walmart, are less tolerant about proper image and more strict about local laws since they have higher chances of getting in trouble with the law.

Nintendo being a multi-billion dollar company with a family-oriented image concluded that she was not fit for a public spokeperson. As an exemple, even Bill would lose his job or put it in jeopardy if he were to show his middle fingers to the public at a pokemon event. Even if he didn't get fired, he would be removed from appearing in public.

The point is, you have your freedom, but you need to understand the responsibilities that come with it. Nintendo is not anyone's friend. They're a company just like any other company. We see game studios being closed down very often for no apparent reason. The PR department is no different.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Let's not generalize too much here.

Generalize whom?

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

So I have heard about GG I have usually stayed away from the subject as I did not know what it was. I am now confused please enlighten me. They are a group of people that harass women in the gaming industry just for being a woman? like no other reason then they are a woman?

charlequin is correct above me, save for an important point he omitted:

It's not just that they're women, it's that they're women who are outspoken about certain things not being so great for women. A cardinal sin in the eyes of GamerGate.

 

[meltingparappa]

It's easy to place all the blame on gamergate, but good people with good intentions (including the Wayne Foundation) chomped up Gamergate's bait to join the weaponized lynch mob. To "protect children", of course, from quotes completely out of context.

And the end result is a bunch of bullies set out to ruin a woman's career, and everyone walks away learning that it works, and will probably work the next time they do it.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I am just confused I don't understand how this would work. Harass them like how? Is that not something where law enforcement could get involved for online harassment? or I guess if it is like twitter or facebook don't they have rules where users can get banned for harassing another user?

Law enforcement don't take online harassment seriously. At all.

And Twitter's harassment policy has largely been a complete joke.

 

[Kamina777]

This isn't credit, this is blame. GG will champion this as their big victory. If your proposal is to lie and pretend, to allow GG to continue to be viewed as neutral to many people instead of a dangerous hate group, then I think you have a pretty shit proposal that does nothing to help and everything to hurt.

Where are they going to post their smarmy "nah nah nah nah, nah, we got'er fired" banner? Who will be the spokeperson?

Out of Giving them blame/credit for getting their way and them actually acknowledging their victory , one of those actions would give them a raging hard on. Hint: It saying involves saying their name.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It's easy to place all the blame on gamergate, but good people with good intentions (including the Wayne Foundation) chomped up Gamergate's bait to join the weaponized lynch mob. To "protect children", of course, from quotes completely out of context.

And the end result is a bunch of bullies set out to ruin a woman's career, and everyone walks away learning that it works, and will probably work the next time they do it.

The Wayne Foundation was posting on GamerGate forums, and basically admitted to being unapologetically reckless about getting Rapp fired. The woman involved was an absolute shithead, she just happened to have a good cause that she used as a bludgeon.

Where are they going to post their smarmy "nah nah nah nah, nah, we got'er fired" banner? Who will be the spokeperson?

Out of Giving them blame/credit for getting their way and them actually acknowledging their victory , one of those actions would give them a raging hard on. Hint: It saying involves saying their name.

So for instance, GamerGate didn't drive anyone out of the industry, we can't blame them for anything because it only emboldens them (apparently, the adage grandmothers taught to their grandchildren about ignoring bullies actually works!), and thus, GamerGate wins because the lack of acknowledgment of their wrongdoings means that they get to pretend to be good people.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

It's easy to place all the blame on gamergate, but good people with good intentions (including the Wayne Foundation) chomped up Gamergate's bait to join the weaponized lynch mob. To "protect children", of course, from quotes completely out of context.

And the end result is a bunch of bullies set out to ruin a woman's career, and everyone walks away learning that it works, and will probably work the next time they do it.

Jamie Walton has a history of supporting GG and repeating their rhetoric, and even said that she'd prefer to shoot first even without any more information.

She's hardly someone who can be said to have "good intentions" in all of this.

 

[Lime]

sorry. : (

i really, really hope i'm just being over pessimistic. but i don't think that i am. the AAA space has never been a welcome place for women and i can't see that every really changing. the only thing i see happening is a bunch of major players collapsing and smaller studios with more progressive outlooks rising to replace them. like, this is an industry that still gives cliffy b work. it has a very long way to go.

I'm afraid that the same hierarchies and power asymmetries will be reproduced in the indie / smaller sphere. There's already been some criticism of how indie developers aren't free of some of the same stigma plaguing AAA (see Liz Ryerson's written work as an example) and I could imagine some of these things getting more pronounced the bigger that particular scene gets.

What needs to change in addition to the games industry itself is also the society producing them - labor laws, minority rights, media funding, and so forth. But that's maybe too much of a pie in the sky idealistic hope I have for the future. Your assessment seems much more likely with the way the world works and still is today

 

[mjp2417]

Let's not generalize too much here.

#NotAllGaters

 

[SneakersSO]

It's easy to place all the blame on gamergate, but good people with good intentions (including the Wayne Foundation) chomped up Gamergate's bait to join the weaponized lynch mob. To "protect children", of course, from quotes completely out of context.

And the end result is a bunch of bullies set out to ruin a woman's career, and everyone walks away learning that it works, and will probably work the next time they do it.

To be fair, they're just adapting weaponized outrage that has been used in various other contexts through online social media since at least 2006. There was always going to be a time when political opponents would begin using perceived effective tools against their opposition. Keep this in mind the next time you see an internet mob call for the firing of a person.

 

[Kinsei]

Where are they going to post their smarmy "nah nah nah nah, nah, we got'er fired" banner? Who will be the spokeperson?

Out of Giving them blame/credit for getting their way and them actually acknowledging their victory , one of those actions would give them a raging hard on. Hint: It saying involves saying their name.

Ignoring them does nothing. These people have been like this for a long time before they united under the GG banner. They will continue to exist unless something is done about them.

 

[Vena]

It's easy to place all the blame on gamergate, but good people with good intentions (including the Wayne Foundation) chomped up Gamergate's bait to join the weaponized lynch mob. To "protect children", of course, from quotes completely out of context.

And the end result is a bunch of bullies set out to ruin a woman's career, and everyone walks away learning that it works, and will probably work the next time they do it.

I think the Wayne Foundation was the actual problem in all of this. Because this stuff had been going on for a long, long time before the "lateral" move and later termination. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that spooked HR/higher ups, and then the conflict of interest (if believed) broke the camels back and gave them an out.

 

[Odrion]

We already had the Racists Getting Fired thread, In which people found it funny people would purposely get people fired from jobs on twitter comments.

Oh hey I remember posting in that thread. Yeeup, that was... some real ugly stuff.