Hillary Clinton to CNN: "I will be the nominee"

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Did I argue this? Yes, of course she serves the party more favorably, so yes, they clearly sided with her. This doesn't elude me.



Notice you used "rigged", which is that word a lot of people are mocking "Bernie Bros" for. I didn't use it.

My problem isn't that they voted for the person that obviously serves their party best. Given their choices, of course that's who they opted for. My problem was that before anybody else got to cast their vote, they put out a clear, defined arrow pointing at a specific candidate. If they came out at the end of the primaries and said "We ultimately choose Clinton," yes, there may be some fussing and moaning that they decided the primary, that in itself could be bad, but at least the initial voting and caucusing could have happened without that handicap making a dent into voters. It's hard to say how much of a dent, but there's no question it had to have discouraged some voters. Not to mention people like to side with a winner, so if you paint someone a presumptive winner early on, and they can run with that (unlike Jeb), that does give them a leg up. I just don't think it's ok that before any state had voted, Clinton was already 1/6th of the way to guaranteed nomination.

The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people who voted even in the primaries have no clue what a superdelegate is, let alone their states decision. Even if such a thing existed, how did Obama ever beat Clinton in '08 when she held the same massive superdelegate lead as she did this time around?
 
my favorite thing about that first image is the fact that 1980 and 1981 are separate lines for some reason

The years represent a recovery as per the tab at the top.

You're aware that this has more to do with congressional grid lock than anything right? The feds pumped money in via monetary policy which didn't really help the bottom percents, but that's because congress blocked fiscal action. The fiscal action that was passed benefited the top again because large portions when to paying off the bush tax cuts. Obama tried to pass another stimulus

Why do you say that? I think it primarily has to do with who Obama appointed, but many people are occupied with who might be on the SC and how they'll vote for their team on cases these days. I saw a recent poll that found SC noms are perceived as very important (surprisingly less important to Democrats vs. GOP according to the poll) although I suppose it didn't say other appointments don't matter.

Also, Obama extended most of the Bush tax cuts. He could've said hey let's introduce new tax cuts with a different bias and I won't raise taxes on the rich at all. However from my perspective, all he wanted to do is raise taxes on the rich slightly and cut entitlements like SS while pretending to save them. He's pretty good at tricking most of his base into thinking he's in their corner.

ObamasNumbers-2016-Q1_3.png

Was looking at some his #s and LOL'd because he fronts like he's for the little man. He's a total phony that couldn't care less about many of his supporters. Sad. I hope Crooked Hillary or Loose Cannon Trump are better for most of their people whoever wins.
 
I didn't say anything of the sort. Comparatively Hillary is doing poorly: WV 41 point win in '08 to an 8 Point loss, Kentucky she barley broke even after winning the state by 36 pts in '08. Indiana she had 90% projected win, magically turned in to an 8 pt loss. Same with Oregon. I'm not saying Sanders is going to win the nomination, as much as I would like him to, but you can't win a general election when you don't have support of 47% of your party and very little support from independents. It's not likely to happen. The numbers show her support is dwindling, and this whole "Sanders' supporters are violent" narrative is just a deflection from that discussion. The most violent accusatory shit I've seen online, on forums and in discussions comes from Hillary supporters. Look in the mirror and you'll see exactly why the Democratic Party is so divided. Having been a discussion with you is futile without it turning in to selective hearing, wild assumptions, and foul language.

Winning West Virginia was basically a shame win for Clinton considering some of the racist garbage that came out of that state in 2008. I'm sure you can look up videos from TYT on the matter and see how quickly they've changed their tune on states they called racist and backwards in 2008.
 
I didn't say anything of the sort. Comparatively Hillary is doing poorly: WV 41 point win in '08 to an 8 Point loss, Kentucky she barley broke even after winning the state by 36 pts in '08. Indiana she had 90% projected win, magically turned in to an 8 pt loss. Same with Oregon. I'm not saying Sanders is going to win the nomination, as much as I would like him to, but you can't win a general election when you don't have support of 47% of your party and very little support from independents. It's not likely to happen. The numbers show her support is dwindling, and this whole "Sanders' supporters are violent" narrative is just a deflection from that discussion. The most violent accusatory shit I've seen online, on forums and in discussions comes from Hillary supporters. Look in the mirror and you'll see exactly why the Democratic Party is so divided. Having been a discussion with you is futile without it turning in to selective hearing, wild assumptions, and foul language.

Well I mean only one of the Democrat candidates has been actively promoting an us vs them mentality and actively rallying against the party. That candidate is also the same candidate who said the onus is on their competitor to try to get their supporters without the help of the candidate, the exact opposite of what that candidate's opponent did the last time they ran. Also, only one of them has this weird situation where they are winning national polls and yet have not been attacked as vigorously as their competitor OR the GOP nominee which seems like something that is not a guarantee to stay as fact when attacks would start.

*shrugs*
 
The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people who voted even in the primaries have no clue what a superdelegate is, let alone their states decision. Even if such a thing existed, how did Obama ever beat Clinton in '08 when she held the same massive superdelegate lead as she did this time around?

You don't give people a lot of credit. Your argument boils down to "What they can't know won't hurt 'em", even though many news reports were just wrapping Superdelegates into the delegate counts from Day 1 on TV? Maybe they don't understand what Superdelegates are, but they understand what 400+ means. Makes for big contrasting bar graphs too, great for TV.

As for Obama, maybe because he was a significantly superior candidate at the time, and even then it was still a rough race where she was ahead for a while?
 
The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people who voted even in the primaries have no clue what a superdelegate is, let alone their states decision. Even if such a thing existed, how did Obama ever beat Clinton in '08 when she held the same massive superdelegate lead as she did this time around?

From a public perspective? Probably because historically this is the first election where news outlets were showing the delegate counts with Superdelegates included from the get go. People believe what they see on tv, and they painted Sanders as down by 600+ off rip.
 
From a public perspective? Probably because historically this is the first election where news outlets were showing the delegate counts with Superdelegates included from the get go. People believe what they see on tv, and they painted Sanders as down by 600+ off rip.

Fine. Then my statement is, if you can't beat somebody because of how news networks decide to create their graphics, maybe you weren't the massive revolution creator you thought you were.
 

Crocodile

Member
Does anyone know a single person who wanted to vote for Sanders but didn't because of superdelegate support? Like even anecdotally? I feel a lot of people are talking out of their anus in this point. There is no evidence that superdelegate support has ever affected voter support. This is just another in a long line of excuses for why Sanders lost. He ran a good race (until around NY at least when the rhetoric started to really sour) but he was the inferior candidate. He lost fair and square by literally every margin imaginable.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Does anyone know a single person who wanted to vote for Sanders but didn't because of superdelegate support? Like even anecdotally? I feel a lot of people are talking out of their anus in this point. There is no evidence that superdelegate support has ever affected voter support. This is just another in a long line of excuses for why Sanders lost. He ran a good race (until around NY at least when the rhetoric started to really sour) but he was the inferior candidate. He lost fair and square by literally every margin imaginable.

The majority of news outlets have not even talked about them (other than from the controversy angle) or included it in summary results.
 
Does anyone know a single person who wanted to vote for Sanders but didn't because of superdelegate support? Like even anecdotally? I feel a lot of people are talking out of their anus in this point. There is no evidence that superdelegate support has ever affected voter support. This is just another in a long line of excuses for why Sanders lost. He ran a good race (until around NY at least when the rhetoric started to really sour) but he was the inferior candidate. He lost fair and square by literally every margin imaginable.

If you actually phone banked or talked to people while campaigning the number of people I've had conversations with that amounted to just that you'd be surprised. When people hear over and over that "Sanders won 8 in a row...but it doesn't matter" parroted all over the media it most definitely discourages people from voting. That's the exact goal of that whole narrative.
 

Christine

Member
Bernie lost because the people who want Clinton to be President outnumber the people who want Sanders to be President by a significant margin. That's really the long and the short of it, there's fairly little that could have changed the outcome.
 
Does anyone know a single person who wanted to vote for Sanders but didn't because of superdelegate support? Like even anecdotally? I feel a lot of people are talking out of their anus in this point. There is no evidence that superdelegate support has ever affected voter support. This is just another in a long line of excuses for why Sanders lost. He ran a good race (until around NY at least when the rhetoric started to really sour) but he was the inferior candidate. He lost fair and square by literally every margin imaginable.

If we're talking anecdotes, yeah, I've ran into a few. I know 3 Bernie supporters who thought that the pledged + supers were one in the same and didn't really see the point of voting at all because it gave them the impression that Bernie would never be able to make up a 700+ deficit.

Media framing is a real thing and has real consequences.

Of course, that isn't why Bernie lost, but you asked for anecdotes so...
 
The sense of relief I will experience when Clinton becomes president-elect of the United States will be on par with Obama clinching it in 2008.

Sanders will help the party coalesce around Clinton when the primary process is concluded because I believe he's a good man at heart and knows what's truly necessary for the country to move forward in a progressive manner.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Bernie lost because the people who want Clinton to be President outnumber the people who want Sanders to be President by a significant margin. That's really the long and the short of it, there's fairly little that could have changed the outcome.

I agree, I don't think anything could have been done by Sanders from a decision based perspective from when he announced. He could have made it closer by making some changes, but not made up enough ground.

His biggest mistake was moving to Vermont instead of a more diverse state like Chicago, New York or California and not making more inroads with the Dem party he ran in.

Vermont gave him a platform to push his message in the Senate, but being a nominee requires more connections than that (or the party being a Dumpster Fire). Vermont is simply the least diverse state in the Union (basically tied with Maine and New Hampshire), and Obama was elected as nominee and as President by the most diverse electorate ever.
 
Bernie lost because the people who want Clinton to be President outnumber the people who want Sanders to be President by a significant margin. That's really the long and the short of it, there's fairly little that could have changed the outcome.

Not at all. Independents by and large prefer Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, so that notion couldn't possibly be true. Many people who wanted to vote for Bernie were simply unable to.

Now, that isn't to say that Bernie couldn't have won without the many independents who would have voted for him, or that he lost because of them, but he needed to do much better than he has done so far without them. He didn't lose because Hillary supporters outnumber Bernie supporters. The GE polls already demonstrate that that's false.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Not at all. Independents by and large prefer Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, so that notion couldn't possibly be true. Many people who wanted to vote for Bernie were simply unable to.

Now, that isn't to say that Bernie couldn't have won without the many independents who would have voted for him, or that he lost because of them, but he needed to do much better than he has done so far without them. He didn't lose because Hillary supporters outnumber Bernie supporters. The GE polls already demonstrate that that's false.

Wow, you have really gone off the deep end.

:(
 
Not at all. Independents by and large prefer Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, so that notion couldn't possibly be true. Many people who wanted to vote for Bernie were simply unable to.

Now, that isn't to say that Bernie couldn't have won without the many independents who would have voted for him, or that he lost because of them, but he needed to do much better than he has done so far without them. He didn't lose because Hillary supporters outnumber Bernie supporters. The GE polls already demonstrate that that's false.

You''re really reaching now

People preferred Hillary to Bernie, despite the "nobody likes her" mentality you and others keep pushing.

Deal with it.
 

Cheebo

Banned
Not at all. Independents by and large prefer Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, so that notion couldn't possibly be true. Many people who wanted to vote for Bernie were simply unable to.

Now, that isn't to say that Bernie couldn't have won without the many independents who would have voted for him, or that he lost because of them, but he needed to do much better than he has done so far without them. He didn't lose because Hillary supporters outnumber Bernie supporters. The GE polls already demonstrate that that's false.
Wow. This can't be real. You are kidding...please tell me you are kidding.
 
Winning 8 in a row doesn't matter. Winning 10 doesn't matter. The nomination was never about how many states you can win. What you win and how you win it are more important than how many and in what sequence.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Wow. This can't be real. You are kidding...please tell me you are kidding.

I think the tuesday election broke BrainChild.
He used to at least argue from Reality.
 
Not at all. Independents by and large prefer Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, so that notion couldn't possibly be true. Many people who wanted to vote for Bernie were simply unable to.

Now, that isn't to say that Bernie couldn't have won without the many independents who would have voted for him, or that he lost because of them, but he needed to do much better than he has done so far without them. He didn't lose because Hillary supporters outnumber Bernie supporters. The GE polls already demonstrate that that's false.

Lol! You've officially transformed into a joke character.
 

Cheebo

Banned
Still waiting for anyone to actually challenge the substance of my argument.

It's like asking to debate pure gibberish. Nothing you posted has any basis in reality.

GE Polls is your proof...in MAY? You have to realize how absolutely insane that is to even mention.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Winning 8 in a row doesn't matter. Winning 10 doesn't matter. The nomination was never about how many states you can win. What you win and how you win it are more important than how many and in what sequence.

^This. Hillary cleaned Sanders clock in the most diverse and delegate rich states.
 

pigeon

Banned
Not at all. Independents by and large prefer Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, so that notion couldn't possibly be true. Many people who wanted to vote for Bernie were simply unable to.

Now, that isn't to say that Bernie couldn't have won without the many independents who would have voted for him, or that he lost because of them, but he needed to do much better than he has done so far without them. He didn't lose because Hillary supporters outnumber Bernie supporters. The GE polls already demonstrate that that's false.

Your first paragraph makes no sense. Independents preferring Bernie has no probative value for the question of whether people overall prefer Hillary, because many people are not independents. This should be obvious.

The GE polls also fail to demonstrate that Bernie supporters outnumber Hillary supporters, because that isn't what they're measuring.

I think probably the more relevant metric is, like, the votes each candidate accumulates in primaries?
 
Bernie lost because the people who want Clinton to be President outnumber the people who want Sanders to be President by a significant margin. That's really the long and the short of it, there's fairly little that could have changed the outcome.

Precisely. Yet, that seems to be something that gets me yelled at by people I know on FB. She simply had more people vote for her than he had vote for him. And even if they bring up voter suppression and whatnot, some people don't seem to realize that if voter suppression were that rampant then statistically speaking many of the people turned away would have voted for Hillary.
 

Sciz

Member
Not at all. Independents by and large prefer Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, so that notion couldn't possibly be true. Many people who wanted to vote for Bernie were simply unable to.

To be clear, is it your claim that there exist enough disenfranchised Bernie independents that it would have tipped the scales of the primary?
 

Zornack

Member
Still waiting for anyone to actually challenge the substance of my argument.

The main issue with your argument is linking a general election poll with primary results.

A person being willing to vote for a candidate in a general election does not mean they would ever engage in a primary or caucus.

That's without even getting into how unreliable general election polls between the loser of one party's primary and the winner of the other's is six months out from the general.
 
That they are created this far out from the GE are done so people in the media have something to discuss during their 24 new cycle. For practical applications to determine what's actually going to happen in the GE they are worthless.

I agree, but my reference of the GE polls has to do with the CURRENT support of Bernie compared to Hillary.

GE polls don't ask people how they will vote in November. They ask people how they would vote RIGHT NOW. If all of those people voted for Bernie, he would win the nomination.

No it's why she performs better in most primaries.

That has nothing to do with Christina's original post, which was about which candidates people WANTED to vote for, not which candidates people actually voted for.
 

Cheebo

Banned
That has nothing to do with Christina's original post, which was about which candidates people WANTED to vote for, not which candidates people actually voted for.

If they wanted to vote for him then they should have. You don't count unless you vote. That is how voting WORKS. Come on man, you are being purposely obtuse.
 
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