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[Fried Food]

I'm ok with this

 

[deadscreensky]

GUYS GUYS

i haven't read the article OR the thread so i'm going to assume that this is a point that hasn't been made before

BUT

i think we shouldnt do this acaus of the censorship and muhmuh creative vision in tha videogaems

PS: i would share my opinion, but i can't back it up becoz i would get banned

Also this is racist against Japanese game developers or something.

(Good post.)

I'm a super pro free speech kind of guy, but none of this strikes me as a particularly new or obnoxious change to how things currently are. (I assume the PEGI rating system is enforced by law, unlike the voluntary rating system in the US? I don't like that, but nothing is changing here.) I guess the only thing I have a problem with is no real negative examples are being given. Obviously I can't play every game, but I can't say I've seen a lot of games with serious sexism in them. Most major publishers seem at least moderately conscious of this, with the only exceptions I can think of being Take-Two (via Rockstar) and maybe Nintendo. It's an area where publishers can improve, certainly, but we aren't inundated with games pushing a narrative that women are inherently inferior to men.

I wish that the people who always seem to freak out about some slipperly slope where we are soon going to give up all our freedoms would learn some history. Societal feelings on free speech ebb and flow, and at least in the Western world (which is all I know about with any small degree of authority) we're actually in a pretty liberal place right now. Lots of freedom all over the place nowadays. You don't need to be paranoid to be vigilant, and a little perspective might be healthy. Relax.

 

[partyphone]

And we are done here. I insulted no one and tried to have a civil discussion about something actually imacts my work. GLHF

no you absolutely did not. you came in and made hyperbolic claims without any supporting arguments are evidence. you fundamentally misunderstand what censorship is and when called on you bullshit you tuck your tail and run.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Encouraging equality, sure.

But what would be considered sexist? That threshold could be way too wide.

Consider the common factors that many games which have sexism in them share. So common that you can literally call them out as tropes.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

it's weird that you guys are talking about censorship. this isn't a thread about censorship. it's about tax subsidies and a rating label.

And not allowing them to air ads on prime TV.

But feel free to ignore that in your arguement.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Good on them. The government shouldn't support or incentivize sexism in a any way.

Since you're someone in this thread that has said they support it, how do you determine what is sexist? As someone mentioned earlier, a game like Bayonetta has been both praised an criticized, so where would it fall? Would it just be slapped with a "incites sexism" label because someone feels that it does while another person feels that it doesn't? And you'd be perfectly okay with that? This isn't like the ESRB where things are undeniable like you can't deny that Mortal Kombat X depicts "Blood and Gore" or "Intense Violence" or that GTAV depicts "Strong Language" and "Use of Drugs and Alcohol".

 

[kiguel182]

Because the path is clear. If you get penalized from creating some abstact art (which "offends" couple of people in the internet), there's a probability you'll start self-censoring. When/if majority self-censors, the remaining few will be frown upon and eventually pressured to take that fascist path. Art dies. Individuality dies. There is nothing but drones left. Fuck that.

It's always a lose/lose situation when this happens. Let's burn some books and paintings, said the nazis. Let's bring them to Siberia, Stalin said.

Yup. The government giving money and promoting works that don't treat women poorly is totally the same as book burning. Clearly we should support misogyny because if we don't we are like Hitler.

Sound logic all around.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

So if this passes will movies be next? I can't imagine video games would be singled out here.

 

[TSM]

Wait a moment, I did read OP and I didn't see anything about censorship. Why people is talking about censorship?

At least in the US having the maximum ratings label is indeed censorship since being rated AO rules your out of releasing on Consoles, most retail stores and many online marketplaces. The difference is that, much like movies, it's currently self-censorship since an independent board set up by the software industry does the judging. Once the government mandates ratings it ceases to be self-censorship and that's where many people would have an issue with it. I guess it comes down to how much you consider the Australian model to be censorship.

 

[Meffer]

What the fuck is this?



This is virtually enforcing censorship of art. This would also absolutely hurt Japanese games, which always tend to be very sexist.

Using Feminist Frequency as a positive example is a terrible idea too. Regardless of FF's intentions, the execution has been a disaster more often than not.

Sexism in society (not just video games) must be solved through discussion, education, and a shift in cultural interests. Not with laws. You can't force people into being smart and tolerant. You really shouldn't force art into being politically correct either.

I hope this gets modified into being something actually useful and well-executed, because the current propositions sound offensive.

Yeah it's a slow and steady process, forcing it will make it worse.

 

[kiguel182]

Since you're someone in this thread that has said they support it, how do you determine what is sexist? As someone mentioned earlier, a game like Bayonetta has been both praised an criticized, so where would it fall? Would it just be slapped with a "incites sexism" label because someone feels that it does while another person feels that it doesn't? And you'd be perfectly okay with that?

No system is perfect but its better than nothing. Labeling and incentivizing good portray of women is good.

 

[tearsintherain]

How do these kind of laws work in Europe anyways, like France passes a bunch of laws saying games that are not X Y and Z positive can't be advertised, have any French-state funding involved, and carry a PEGI-18 rating.

Does that apply to ALL of Europe, or can a company decide its not worth the hassle to sell in France and sell everywhere else in Europe and just not sell in France? Or can they sell one version everywhere else in Europe, and sell the Middle East / French version in France? Would that go against European common market laws?

Also why wouldn't these same exact laws apply to other forms of culture like TV, movies, books, music, etc? Should movies that are considered sexist not be allowed to advertise on TV and only be seen by 18+?

 

[QuantumZebra]

With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.

--

Glad to see governments recognizing games as a medium and the issues that can arise in/around them.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

Personally, and this is a bit of my Libertarian side showing, but I don't like the government classifying what is good use of speech versus bad use of speech. I think it's fine to raise awareness over how portrayals of women or ethnicities can be problematic or even flat out disgusting, but I don't think the government should weigh in to incentivize or deincentivize certain forms of speech.

 

[Mass Effect]

I'm not from France so I'm not familiar with their government but the last thing I can imagine the gaming industry needs is Government intervention of any kind.

This sounds like some Americonservative garbage.

 

[Eumi]

So what's sexist? Is a sexualised woman sexist? Is a game with no playable female characters sexist? If you have four characters and the only woman is the healer, is that sexist? The idea of sexism is incredibly vague and confusing when you try to apply it to individual games.

Incentivising games that promote women is a great idea, because the worst thing that could happen there is a game that isn't quite as progressive as it could be gets the boost. Penalising games that they've deemed sexist however will foster contempt for the act at best and at worst (although this is a very extreme scenario) become full blown censorship.

 

[SolidSnakex]

No system is perfect but its better than nothing. Labeling and incentivizing good portray of women is good.

That's just ridiculous. Letting the fucking government control something and dictate what does and doesn't fall under such a label. Even more ridiculous that they're targeting games rather than other forms of media. Why not music? Why not TV shows? Why not movies? Games are always the media that the government wants to kick around and the fact that gamers actually support such bullshit is ridiculous.

 

[kiguel182]

I sense most people against this here will be Americans where government intervention is seen as evil. Things don't quite work like that in EU and especially in France.

In this case, it's good that there's a special case to prevent sexism and to promote non sexist works.

 

[Basketball]

With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.

Hey man it's [CURRENT YEAR]

Get with the progress Bro

 

[MUnited83]

Because the path is clear. If you get penalized from creating some abstact art (which "offends" couple of people in the internet), there's a probability you'll start self-censoring. When/if majority self-censors, the remaining few will be frown upon and eventually pressured to take that fascist path. Art dies. Individuality dies. There is nothing but drones left. Fuck that.

self-censoring has been going on since the dawn of videogames and the medium hasn't died yet.

 

[Harlequin]

Consider the common factors that many games which have sexism in them share. So common that you can literally call them out as tropes.

So what would an airtight definition of the type of sexist content that would exclude you from receiving financial incentives be?

Because if you just say "it can't have anything sexist in it", then you're basically saying that no games taking place in realistic modern or historical settings are allowed because our modern society is still so incredibly sexist that trying to write a story without any sexism in it whatsoever would automatically set it in either an alternate universe, a fantastical setting or a distant future. You will have to draw a more or less arbitrary line somewhere to define the type of sexist content that is still allowed (like the fashion example I used in one of my previous posts) and that's where things start to get problematic.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

The real question is exactly how much money are we talking here? Is this gonna be a lot or just a couple of pennies?

 

[Obliterator]

Personally, and this is a bit of my Libertarian side showing, but I don't like the government classifying what is good use of speech versus bad use of speech. I think it's fine to raise awareness over how portrayals of women or ethnicities can be problematic or even flat out disgusting, but I don't think the government should weigh in to incentivize or deincentivize certain forms of speech.

I really couldn't agree with you more. And it is a somewhat interesting phenomenon how the current generation is in general leaning more and more onto the government in how they lead their lives.

That said I think its alright to offer a tax credit or something for positive portrayals.

 

[kiguel182]

That's just ridiculous. Letting the fucking government control something and dictate what does and doesn't fall under such a label. Even more ridiculous that they're targeting games rather than other forms of media. Why not music? Why not TV shows? Why not movies? Games are always the media that people want to kick around and the fact that gamers actually support such bullshit is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous that they want to give money to games that portray women in a positive manner?

Also, I support whatever I want regardless of the fact of me playing games or not. I don't know what that generalization means.

 

[Phoenix944]

Seems a bit pointless...

 

[Shrike_Priest]

"If people don't like games with sexualised women in them, don't buy them. No one is forcing you. Go buy your feminist non games. "
"Ok, let's just create some labels that allow consumers to make informed choices when buying these things so the market can reflect demand."
"Censorship!"

The 18+ label has literally never mattered. Adding a qualifier about a games portrayal of gender is giving consumers more freedom, not less. People always argue that sexism in games is just what the market wants and you can't fault game devs for following the economic incentives. So, how about we change the incentives? Developers don't have to chase the lowest common denominator and anyone taking a risk in gender equality in terms of design will have some kind of an economic incentive to take that gamble.

The advertising limits are a bit draconian, but labeling and incentives are fine.

Also, it's not like the categorization need be very complex. The same type of considerations concerning sex and violence have been in place for ages, adding a basic gender analysis isn't going to be impossible.

 

[sbkodama]

I sense most people against this here will be Americans where government intervention is seen as evil. Things don't quite work like that in EU and especially in France.

Lol so you haven't heard about what happens in france currently.

 

[axisofweevils]

Also, would Mario get a higher rating because his games usually involve saving the princess?

Europe already gets the short end of the stick with ATLUS games taking months to come over, if at all. This would give game localisers more hoops to jump through and make matters 10x worse.

 

[guggnichso]

where in history has this happened? like specifically?

One example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority

Edit: Another example would ne germany. If a game is considered too brutal over here, any promotion of it (including any review or previews in magazines) can be prohibited and the game can only be sold to over 18 year olds when specifically asked for at the Counter. It is prohibited from being shown on store shelfs.

For publishers, this meant a great decrease in profits, so special censored versions for germany were made, that contained less blood, violence, changed enemies to robots, or like with Gears of War or Dead Rising prevented publishers from releasing the games over here at all.

 

[Crossing Eden]

So what would an airtight definition of the type of sexist content that would exclude you from receiving financial incentives be?

Because if you just say "it can't have anything sexist in it", then you're basically saying that no games taking place in realistic modern or historical settings are allowed because our modern society is still so incredibly sexist that trying to write a story without any sexism in it whatsoever would automatically set it in either an alternate universe, a fantastical setting or a distant future. You will have to draw a more or less arbitrary line somewhere of the type of sexist content that is still allowed (like the fashion example I used in one of my previous posts) and that's where things start to get problematic.

Again, consider the common trends between games commonly seen in threads that are about sexism.

"If people don't like games with sexualised women in them, don't buy them. No one is forcing you. Go buy your feminist non games. "
"Ok, let's just create some labels that allow consumers to make informed choices when buying these things so the market can reflect demand."
"Censorship!"

The 18+ label has literally never mattered. Adding a qualifier about a games portrayal of gender is giving consumers more freedom, not less. People always argue that sexism in games is just what the market wants and you can't fault game devs for following the economic incentives. So, how about we change the incentives? Developers don't have to chase the lowest common denominator and anyone taking a risk in gender equality in terms of design will have some kind of an economic incentive to take that gamble.

The advertising limits are a bit draconian, but labeling and incentives are fine.

Also, it's not like the categorization need be very complex. The same type of considerations concerning sex and violence have been in place for ages, adding a basic gender analysis isn't going to be impossible.

Exactly.

 

[kiguel182]

Lol so you haven't heard about what happens in france currently.

What is happening in France doesn't change the fact that it's a country with a lot of governmental intervention. The fact that they do that is also why the things are like they are there.

 

[User 73706]

"wow way to go france looks like there's no hope for your games industry either, everything's too PC these days"

"what?"

"wow no need to get all outrage cultured about it, i was just trying to have ~~*rational discussion*~~ and/or ~~*civil discourse*~~, but now it looks like the feminazi brigade is on my tail, way to go guys, you ruined gaming"

"...what?"

"okay well i'm done in this thread, nice try though. GGs " *goes off to whine on Voat about how neogaf is a cancer that's in cohoots with the Anita Sarkeesian illuminati*

 

[paragonpro]

With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.

I may take flak for this, but I agree.

 

[Harlequin]

Again, consider the common trends between games commonly seen in threads that are about sexism.

Call me stupid but I'm honestly not sure how that's supposed to answer my question.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Why is it ridiculous that they want to give money to games that portray women in a positive manner?

Because there's no set standard for what that is. Many women want more characters like Bayonetta in games, yet there are others that think she's harmful. So who exactly is right in that case? Those that have written at length about why she's a positive portrayal and why the want more women like her, or those that have written that she's a negative portrayal?

 

[Funkyhamster]

This seems a bit heavy-handed. From what I can tell, most AAA developers do care about presenting positive portrayals of women, and most of the negative depictions highlighted in things like Feminist Frequency are mistakes caused by the developers just not thinking about these things enough. Furthermore, now that there's more attention on the issue, devs seem to be doing a good job correcting their mistakes on their own.

I see a lot of sexism problems in the gaming industry, but most of the serious ones seem to have to do with the way real-life women are treated. As far as women in games go, it seems like developers are already headed on a path towards good portrayals of women, and the best way to get them there is probably through community encouragement and societal pressure rather than heavy-handed laws and tax incentives.

I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about. Am I wrong about this?

 

[Obliterator]

"wow way to go france looks like there's no hope for your games industry either, everything's too PC these days"

"what?"

"wow no need to get all outrage cultured about it, i was just trying to have ~~*rational discussion*~~ and/or ~~*civil discourse*~~, but now it looks like the feminazi brigade is on my tail, way to go guys, you ruined gaming"

"...what?"

"okay well i'm done in this thread, nice try though. GGs " *goes off to whine on Voat about how neogaf is a cancer that's in cohoots with the Anita Sarkeesian illuminati*

....nothing in your post has happened in this thread. Like, as in none of that. Its actually be a very civil solid discourse.

Edit - Oh shit never mind I didn't see that one post. I get what you are referring to now, my bad. That said he didn't throw out the kind of claims you are putting here so that is probably a tad hyperbolic

 

[kiguel182]

Video games are totally dying because France will give benefits to games with strong women. That's what will kill it.

I guess discrimination against women is the basis of this medium after all.

 

[RecRoulette]

No problem with the tax credit part, not so sure about the rating part.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Wait a moment, I did read OP and I didn't see anything about censorship. Why people are talking about censorship?

Removing tax subsidies would be a form of indirect censorship. While not censored outright, they would be strongly discouraging certain things through financial means by taking away tax credits, advertising spots, and maybe harming distribution.

 

[GinoFelino]

With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.

Lol.

Okay man.

On topic: impractical initiative, but I really like the effort.

 

[Wagram]

I can't wait to live in a sterilized world where no ones feelings can possibly be hurt.

 

[kiguel182]

Because there's no set standard for what that is. Many women want more characters like Bayonetta in games, yet there are others that think she's harmful. So who exactly is right in that case? Those that have written at length about why she's a positive portrayal and why the want more women like her, or those that have written that she's a negative portrayal?

I don't have the anwser for that. But people who will rate the games will certainly discuss it and come to their conclusions. If you disagree you can still buy the game.

The fact that there are ambiguous games doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying to label the clearly sexist ones and try to incentivize good portrayals of women.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

With all respect to everyone and clearly just my opinion... This world is lost. The arts are dying in front of us and many are cheering.

I'm cheering. Why?

Catherine Coutelle, a socialist deputy of the National Assembly, proposed legislation last year that would have excluded games that portray a "degrading image of women" from receiving government tax credits.

I don't think "the arts" ever were intended to be used for degrading women. That can die in a fire.

 

[kamineko]

Presuming the French government already uses criteria to determine what developers get incentives and subsidies, are those pre-existing criteria examples of censorship, too?

What about in America, then? The NEA can only give out so many grants per year. Are artists whose grant applications are denied considered censored?

I guess I'm just wondering how including a specific criteria (portrayal of women) constitutes censorship when other criteria doesn't.

 

[Kinyou]

Also, it's not like the categorization need be very complex. The same type of considerations concerning sex and violence have been in place for ages, adding a basic gender analysis isn't going to be impossible.

Those classifiers are always about the portrayal of violence or sex. Something that is clearly there or not there. So does this mean the game has to feature active portrayal of a character being sexist to get the label? What about a game like DoaX3? No one behaves sexist in that game, but I somehow suspect people would want to give it a sexism label.

And as mentioned previously, what about a game like Bayonetta where people are pretty split on it?

You don't have these kind of problems when labeling violence.

 

[kiguel182]

If the world will become a place were we don't degrade people based on their sex or color skin I'm pretty okay with that.

Also, I'm glad governments don't want to pay for negative portrayals of women.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

I'm cheering. Why?



I don't think "the arts" ever were intended to be used for degrading women. That can die in a fire.

Let me introduce to you a book called "American Psycho". You'll be shocked.

 

[kiguel182]

The games can still exist. They will simply be labeled and the government will not pay them. Nobody is stopping you from buying your beach volley simulators.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I don't have the anwser for that. But people who will rate the games will certainly discuss it and come to their conclusions. If you disagree you can still buy the game.

The fact that there are ambiguous games doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying to label the clearly sexist ones and try to incentivize good portrayals of women.

The only question I have is will this type of labeling transfer over to movies? Music? Comics? Book? Why stop at games.