To me that message from from CDP could easily be interpreted as Pro Patch = 4k.
Sony's marketing and communication about the PS4 Pro
- Thread starter leng jai
- Start date
To me that message from from CDP could easily be interpreted as Pro Patch = 4k.
Brad Grenz
Member
That his criticism of the E3 press conference was bizarre and unsupported, and that if the plan is to live stream events so you can make jokes over them you probably shouldn't complain when you were talking over the answers you think they didn't give.
EatinOlives
Member
I don't think we'll be able to discern whether or not they screwed up the messaging until after it released. After all, many on GAF thought the WiiU's naming was not confusing anybody and that it was "obviously" a new console and not just a peripheral.
Huh? where you coming from with this?
Marty Chinn
Member
People are upgrading phones before because of their contracts being up. People however are not upgrading their tablets and that shows as tablet sales have slowed dramatically. I don't think it's confusion to the point of paralysis, but more like not being simple enough to want to bother with it. It'll really be interesting to see how the marketing is made this fall, and what the promotional material is like.
I'm not saying it's an impossible sale, but I also think there's plenty of room to make a confusing message. Hell, there are plenty of people here who still don't have all the details correct. I again point out to the Witcher 3 thread where people are genuinely, I think, surprised that the Pro won't simply run your existing games better without a patch like it would on a PC. Then there's just the number of people on here who claim they can see the benefits of HDR on off screen photos that they're viewing on the SDR screen.
It's hard to give the average consumer credit of understanding when there are plenty of people on this board who are already misinformed. So again, it'll be interesting to see how Sony markets this. It's not impossible for them to make a general enough message that has the bare minimum amount of info that will be enough for the mass consumer to understand, but I still think there's room to screw it up too.
DerZuhälter
Member
I'm on still on the fence whether I should get a pro as current PS4 owner or not.
My current PC is trash and needs an upgrade for gaming, thus I currently only play on PS4. I got the money to spare, yet I'm still on the fence. Why? Because Sony did a bad job communicating the benefits to current PS4 users with 2K TVs.
I understand the tech behind all of it. There is nothing confusing on the hardware side of things.
The problem is the software side where every developer can willy-nilly decide what "improvements" 1080P TV users get. Some might say supersampling, some might say here is some fillrate intensive additional shubberies. Some might improve framerate and double it, some who had a shit framerate on base console, will hit their initial target more consistent.
According to Sony there are several options of how we might benefit from upgrading, but the truth is: We don't know how future titles and past titles will benefit. We've been told that they will (at least all future titles), but except for a single shot of Epic's F2P Paragon, we haven't seen it. And that's less than 2 months away from release.
I'm not willing to go through the hassle of selling my current PS4 and getting a new one for these uncertain benefits. And that's why I think Sony did a bad job in terms of marketing and communication.
My current PC is trash and needs an upgrade for gaming, thus I currently only play on PS4. I got the money to spare, yet I'm still on the fence. Why? Because Sony did a bad job communicating the benefits to current PS4 users with 2K TVs.
I understand the tech behind all of it. There is nothing confusing on the hardware side of things.
The problem is the software side where every developer can willy-nilly decide what "improvements" 1080P TV users get. Some might say supersampling, some might say here is some fillrate intensive additional shubberies. Some might improve framerate and double it, some who had a shit framerate on base console, will hit their initial target more consistent.
According to Sony there are several options of how we might benefit from upgrading, but the truth is: We don't know how future titles and past titles will benefit. We've been told that they will (at least all future titles), but except for a single shot of Epic's F2P Paragon, we haven't seen it. And that's less than 2 months away from release.
I'm not willing to go through the hassle of selling my current PS4 and getting a new one for these uncertain benefits. And that's why I think Sony did a bad job in terms of marketing and communication.
4 years ago but I knew some people would react like that.
4K Support : could it have a influence on which Next Gen Console you buy?
Fixed.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
While I don't think Sony's presentation was the strongest, I find it pretty crazy how confused GAF seems to be about everything when it's been made abundantly clear what the PS4 Pro is - a more powerful PS4 that also supports 4k checkboard rendering and HDR.
If you don't have a 4K TV you'll reap the benefits of the PS4 Pro just being more powerful hardware. Better graphics, more stable framerates and in theory, much better IQ at 1080p than you got on the OG PS4.
If you do have a 4K TV you'll reap all of the those benefits plus the added bonus of being able to exploit HDR and 4K.
That's it. That's all there is to understand. Now, how much better PS4 games look graphically on the Pro is yet to be seen and tbh, I think that's party why GAF is getting so confused lol Seems as though people won't really get their heads around this until Digital Foundry does a graphics comparison between the PS4 and PS4 Pro versions of Battlefield 1 or Final Fantasy XV.
If you don't have a 4K TV you'll reap the benefits of the PS4 Pro just being more powerful hardware. Better graphics, more stable framerates and in theory, much better IQ at 1080p than you got on the OG PS4.
If you do have a 4K TV you'll reap all of the those benefits plus the added bonus of being able to exploit HDR and 4K.
That's it. That's all there is to understand. Now, how much better PS4 games look graphically on the Pro is yet to be seen and tbh, I think that's party why GAF is getting so confused lol Seems as though people won't really get their heads around this until Digital Foundry does a graphics comparison between the PS4 and PS4 Pro versions of Battlefield 1 or Final Fantasy XV.
Ninja Scooter
Member
My point was not they are or aren't upgrading, it's that they are purchasing consumer electronics more regularly than they have before. I've already said I don't think Sony is banking on upgraders. They are banking on people buying PS4s this holiday, and are having a premium SKU on the market for those that might want it. Those that don't can purchase the Slim. I really don't think they will have to try that hard to market it. It's not a successor. It's not a completely new product.
Brad Grenz
Member
DerZuhälter;217464797 said:
Are you not aware that developers have always had total control over the visual quality of their games? Why are you suddenly so distrustful of their judgement? The crazy thing would be an absurd Sony mandated improvement that every developer has to adhere to.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Amazon isn't communicating much at all at PS4 Pro is close top of the charts for September.
RadishNation
Neo Member
Memories are short I guess.
Marty Chinn
Member
I think the reasons for making the purchase is an incredibly important detail though. Different products and markets have different behaviors and expectations. You can't simply apply the behavior of buying more consumer electronics in one area to mean they'll buy more consumer electronics in another.
Sure, Sony is banking on people buying PS4s this holiday, but I still think there's a question of who is this aimed for exactly. Generally, at this point in the lifespan of the system, the people who haven't bought the system yet are likely due to price rather than performance. The Pro doesn't solve the price issue; the Slim does. Those that the Pro is likely targeted at, has already bought a console. That's not to say there aren't some examples of someone who hasn't bought one yet but this will cater too, but I think by and large, the audience is either price conscious or already has a system.
So going back to the above where reasons matter, you have to give a compelling enough reason for people to upgrade. Andrew House even stated that the target was keeping people within the ecosystem which means people who already bought in. Giving someone a compelling reason to upgrade is going to be a harder upsell than someone just jumping in for the first time.
This is a poor metric to use given how any surge jumps a product to the top as has been shown by plenty of products in the past.
Is every PS4 Pro thread open season or something? I didn't see the discussion in this thread getting anywhere close to where you are trying bring it.
Despite claims of widespread catastrophic confusion, even the disingenuous ones can't contain their detailed knowledge and understanding about the ps4p. Pretty hilarious.
chromatic9
Member
I'm sure Digital Foundry and others will do a better job of showing most of the differences once the system is out. Proof is in the pudding
I wonder how many stores will bother setting up a PS4 and PS4 Pro side by side with Rise of the Tomb Raider for example. To best demonstrate the Pro you'll need at least 2x 1080p sets hooked up to a vanilla PS4 and PS4 Pro and then a Pro on a 4k set with HDR. Might even be best to not show as consumers are used to pro/deluxe models, slightly more expansive version with a higher speed or other added extra.
Not sure I've read the confusion on GAF, more like unknowns until the games come out. We've read many threads in the past asking or speculating on iterative consoles, mid cycle upgrades and how its possible being more PC like and now we're here.
I wonder how many stores will bother setting up a PS4 and PS4 Pro side by side with Rise of the Tomb Raider for example. To best demonstrate the Pro you'll need at least 2x 1080p sets hooked up to a vanilla PS4 and PS4 Pro and then a Pro on a 4k set with HDR. Might even be best to not show as consumers are used to pro/deluxe models, slightly more expansive version with a higher speed or other added extra.
Not sure I've read the confusion on GAF, more like unknowns until the games come out. We've read many threads in the past asking or speculating on iterative consoles, mid cycle upgrades and how its possible being more PC like and now we're here.
That would be 2x supersampling AA then? That's not a big visual improvement and already leaves not much room for framerate improvements in GPU limited situations.
The tangible improvements across a breadth of games remains to be seen and I'd be more careful to sell it as an improvement for 1080p users.
Until then the Pro is only for 4K and probably VR.
Are you concerned?
Let me get this straight: You are "quite enjoying" the minor framerate improvements of the Xbox One S, but you will not be able to enjoy what is for most games already by default better performance, if unpatched PS4 games will perform the same as they do now on PS4 Pro?
So, like Microsoft did?
Xbox One S won't give games a performance boost, Microsoft insists - 15th June
Xbox One S performance boost revealed - 2nd August
Look, the PS4 Pro might (we don't really know yet) downclock itself for compatibility reasons to some "Legacy" mode when running already released, unpatched PS4 games, but it also might still see minor framerate improvements even with such a downclock by virtue of having newer GPU technology. Only time will tell, but clocks are not everything.
If this should turn out true for unpatched games, then I'm pretty sure you'll be able to "quite enjoy" the big improvements that patched and yet to be released games will get from the PS4 Pro, which I personally see as much more important than games I've already played.
FrozenCell
Member
Pro will be awesome
Sony's message was good, but the communication from the event felt forced and also bit awkward, maybe partly because it livestreamed right after Apple's 2h conference
Sony's message was good, but the communication from the event felt forced and also bit awkward, maybe partly because it livestreamed right after Apple's 2h conference
a) HDR is on the OG PS4 as well
b) "much" might oversell it a lot
c) at 2k+upscaling there's little to no room for further improvements
Maybe you are confused? PS4 Pro is a smart design for 4K. Full stop.
I agree that the problem is NeoGAF, not Sony. Some people on here make things so complicated for themselves. It's like they don't even bother using Google before starting a new thread. NeoGAF is also very "flavour of the week" and people are acting like HDR is the second coming when no one cared a week ago, which is very confusing for a lot of users. They also haven't played 4K vs Pro 1080p for themselves so they don't realize the compromises that will have to be made.
Peterthumpa
Member
Try this test if possible one of these days: enable DSR on a NVIDIA card, using a 1080p monitor. Set the game to say, 1440p. It's a huge difference, especially when there's an extra "couch" factor. Now, also factor in the method that Sony is using for supersampling/upscaling and how much better it is than the relatively simple supersampling mentioned above, and you can imagine the results.
TL;DR: DSR should be the answer to anyone who thinks that 1080p TVs won't see tangible benefits. I had a 1080p monitor no too long ago and it was always a night/day difference when playing a game at native 1080p vs playing the same game on the same monitor, but downsampled from 4K.
CelticKnight
Member
I "only" have a 1080p TV so buying a Pro isn't high up my list of priorities, but I would like to know how quiet it is.
My current PS4 sounds like a hairdryer and a diesel van having a fight on some games
My current PS4 sounds like a hairdryer and a diesel van having a fight on some games
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
See. Two informed posters who are both in this thread saying there's no confusion who have both given different consumers this console is aimed at.
So maybe those who are so quick to be smart arses should chill a tad and not go all No Man's Sky at those with reasonable posts. I'm yet to see a lot of obvious trolling in this thread.
KratosEnergyDrink
Member
DerZuhälter;217464797 said:
PS4 Pro is only a little upgrade. Not really worth the money unless you are very enthusiastic about pixel counting. It would probably better to wait some month and look if NX or Scorpio are a better investments if you already own a PS4.
I also only have a 1080p TV, but it's high up my list of priorities due to what Rise of the Tomb Raider and The Witness devs have already detailed about what improvements running those games in 1080p on the Pro brings, which I hope will be a precedent for upcoming games too.
Primethius
Banned
I'm not really sure how our two posts suggests there is confusion towards the actual consoles demographic targets. I'm merely reiterating what House said in one interview. I haven't seen what Scooter mentioned personally so I can't vouch for that.
But even with that in mind, my statement isn't really incompatible with his. Power users could refer to the same users that my quote refers to. And my quote was more pulled from an interview which talked about the intent behind the console itself.
DerZuhälter
Member
So I should be applauding Sony for showing one measly comparision for about 3 seconds and pre-order this thing?
This isn't convincing me. This shouldn't convince anyone, currently owning a PS4 and 1080p TV, to be frank.
After loads of terrible rush job ports to PCs, and loads of remasters which honestly in some cases don't deserve this title, I think a healthy dose of scepticism is in order towards publishers and developers and their use of "extra power".
Actually it's not a little upgrade. Even on 1080P you can do a lot with the 2.5 fold increase in GPU power. The question is if developers are going to go the extramile and do something with the power. I personally don't believe they will do, and Sony hasn't until now shown any examples, except for Paragon.
I don't think this is an unfair point of criticism.
anothertech
Member
Couldn't be more clear, not sure what the confusion is. They've shown what it can do at 1080p. They've shown games with three possible settings depending on situation, devs and digital foundry have explained it copiously. What more do you want?
Scorpio on the other hand, well they outright said opposite information multiple times. Don't buy it if you don't have 4K, devs can use the power for 1080p, all first party games will render 4K native, we will not mandate 4K gaming for Scorpio, there will be no exclusives on Scorpio, VR gaming will be Scorpio exclusive...That message is a real clusterfck.
Scorpio on the other hand, well they outright said opposite information multiple times. Don't buy it if you don't have 4K, devs can use the power for 1080p, all first party games will render 4K native, we will not mandate 4K gaming for Scorpio, there will be no exclusives on Scorpio, VR gaming will be Scorpio exclusive...That message is a real clusterfck.
You can emulate behaviour and still improve performance. Even if the GPU and CPU down clock to keep latency consistent between the consoles I doubt they will also disable the additional shaders and tmu's.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I'm not trying to have a go.
Again, I was pointing out that the Pro situation isn't COMPLETELY clear cut like many seem to think. That's all.
I can understand how many folk don't really see a giant market for this thing (which some have already alluded to anyway).
- Is it for the enthusiast that counts pixels on GAF and actively participates in Digital Foundry discussions? Not really in theory because it's not powerful enough for native 4K or for 60 frames boosts to older games
- Is it for the casual core gamer that plays CoD and Madden every year? Well no. There's a $100 cheaper option that still plays those games at 1080/60 as is. Why would they need to spend the $100?
- Is it for existing PS4 owners who want better performance? Not particularly. Because it's already been said performance won't be improved (CPU limitations), just some detail and visual clarity. Again, given the PS4 is already putting good looking games out at 1080p, then I'm not sure why they'd upgrade outside of "Because I can".
Again, I'll re-iterate, I'm not saying this thing won't sell. I'm just pointing out that the OP isn't complete nonsense that so many should be dismissing the way they are. The Pro situation isn't crystal clear.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
For the entire month no it's not. I'm not talking about the "what's hot" rankings.
It's more than a little upgrade. It over twice the GPU power. You seem misinformed yourself so maybe you should hold off on advising other people.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
It will be great for 1080p displays as well.
Marty Chinn
Member
I'm not talking about that either. What you're talking about is a poor metric and people often try to cite it as proof of sales for various products.
Primethius
Banned
Here is the quote from House:
That seems perfectly compatible with what Scooter said. And it's not as if a console needs to be designed for one demographic. The intent is outlined above, and it will have target demographics from a bit of each in moving towards that goal. You say not really to each of the things you listed, and hey, you might be right but it'll still get a bit from the first and third points.
And given that Sony is only really expecting it to do 1 to 1.5 million by March 2017 going by the FY reports, I don't really see where the confusion lies.
We have a statement of intent. We can infer target demographics. We know what kind of sales Sony are hoping for. We know what the console is capable of at higher resolutions. Sony has said that most games won't be 4k while it is capable. We know that 1080p TV owners will see graphical benefits in titles.
Everything seems pretty clear cut to me.
anothertech
Member
really? Cause it sure sounds like it.
Ps4 is for people that want it less expensive
Pro is for people that want it prettier
That's about it. You could go on with 'is it for' for days, and that would still have no bearing on how clear Sony's message has been.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
It's generally accurate when my comes to console hardware and it is in line with what other sources are saying.
gundamkyoukai
Member
The Pro is for all sort of people it's just a question of how many of those consumers there are .
It is a high end version of PS4 that play games better .
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
For the consumer who doesn't frequent sites like GAF:
PS4slim: Same as OG PS4 but cheaper
PS4pro: Better than OG PS4 but $100 more
PS4slim: Same as OG PS4 but cheaper
PS4pro: Better than OG PS4 but $100 more
What's not to get? It's a more powerful ps4. If consumers want that then they'll buy it. If they don't they'll pick up a slim, but bear in mind that the Pro is only $100 more expensive (which isn't a lot for what you get).
Or they could pick up an Xbone S. Which isn't going to happen unless you're American.
Or they could pick up an Xbone S. Which isn't going to happen unless you're American.
shouamabane
Member
PS4 Pro's marketing is confused just like PS4 Pro is in general. It's one foot into 4K and one foot held back.
Colingwood the console is aimed at a gamut of consumers.
You can't just isolate one demographic for the Pro and say that's the only group this hardware is aimed at.
With how people are used to upgrading their electronics over the last 10 years even the casuals who are buying
their first PS4 will be attracted to buying a more powerful console just to play CoD, Madden, Fifa.
Edit: and its $400 which is actually decent. Some people have budgetary constraints but a fair few will
also say why the hell not at that entry price.
Haha goddamn!
You can't just isolate one demographic for the Pro and say that's the only group this hardware is aimed at.
With how people are used to upgrading their electronics over the last 10 years even the casuals who are buying
their first PS4 will be attracted to buying a more powerful console just to play CoD, Madden, Fifa.
Edit: and its $400 which is actually decent. Some people have budgetary constraints but a fair few will
also say why the hell not at that entry price.
Haha goddamn!
Horrible is usual hyperbole.
They haven't done the best job for sure, but its hardly that bad. XB1 reveal was horrible marketing for example. If this is horrible what do we call that? Jeez the internet needs to learn some modulation of language between GOAT and horrible - particularly as most of the time most stuff is somewhere between the two.
I'd say they've done an average job at this point. The main elements have been communicated and general impression is strong and the Pro seems to be getting decent pre-orders which is a good sign.
That said they could have made clear advantages for 1080p TV owners more clearly. Personally I thought the more or less nailed the 4K side. The checkerboard came across well and has been positively reported on too. The whole "pseudo" is concern IMHO - much as shown in the OP. People go by what they know from the TV and Sony have made clear the device has a mode that will work very well to produce a 4K output for your TV.
They haven't done the best job for sure, but its hardly that bad. XB1 reveal was horrible marketing for example. If this is horrible what do we call that? Jeez the internet needs to learn some modulation of language between GOAT and horrible - particularly as most of the time most stuff is somewhere between the two.
I'd say they've done an average job at this point. The main elements have been communicated and general impression is strong and the Pro seems to be getting decent pre-orders which is a good sign.
That said they could have made clear advantages for 1080p TV owners more clearly. Personally I thought the more or less nailed the 4K side. The checkerboard came across well and has been positively reported on too. The whole "pseudo" is concern IMHO - much as shown in the OP. People go by what they know from the TV and Sony have made clear the device has a mode that will work very well to produce a 4K output for your TV.
xenorevlis
Member
It was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11XjMplfTd4&feature=youtu.be&t=1753
If you think that wording is too confusing you really need to get over yourself.
geordiemp
Member
So, take a game like the Witcher 3. Will the Ps4Pro run in
1. Full 36 CU and 2.1 Ghz CPU
or
2. A legacy mode where pro runs 18 CU and CPU at 1.6 GHz
I need to know if Ps4Pro will run at full steam for my game collection or will it be cut down to Ps4 levels so we dont see any frame rate and performance optimisation even at 1080p....
Its not clear at all, its MUD
xenorevlis
Member
You "need to know" eh? Well, it's coming out next month, so maybe figure it out then. If you get that 5% boost like on Xbox One S will you be filled with glee? Oh and a seminar with Mark Cerny that goes into detail is coming up, apparently.