I Believe Having Children Is "Immoral" (Aka: Any Antinatalists Here? )

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I wouldn't say I really wanted to have kids, and yes, the idea is scary! Many things can go wrong. But, you have an adult conversation and make a decision with a partner, and it's still scary and crazy, but also truly incredible.
But people who don't have kids? Great! Do whatever you want. But it's not philosophically interesting. It's just another choice.
 
I don't see myself as a person capable of raising a child (as in I'd be a bad parent), and I wouldn't want to take the risk to find out.
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This is a much more sensible attitude than worrying about consent from theoretical people TBH.
 
I don't see this concept worth entertaining beyond the confines of a philosophical thought experiment tbh.

There are enough more valid reasons to not have children.
 
Not wanting to have children because you can't get the consent from the children that do not even exist yet is certainly a rather...................... unique................. way of thinking.
 
Cheesecakebobby said:
OP, would you adopt?

Everyone, do you think it is immoral to try for a child when there are so many children in need of families? What about spending huge amounts of money on IVF etc? I at least feel the latter case is one of considerable selfishness.
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I dont see that as selfish. You can blow out your money on so many other selfish things. Also its a technology that we will probably rely on a lot more in the future (due to the average age of the mothers at their first labor rising)

Also adoption in some modern countries is absurdly complicated (where the government has to assess you etc. Etc)
 
Bounceounce said:
As someone who was adopted (by a family member), and as someone with three little brothers who were adopted by a nice family.....no.
When I was younger adoption was always my go to answer to questions of having kids as I saw it as more helpful than having kids of my own (far before I became an antinatalist), and I still float the idea of adoption to other people whenever the topic of kids come up because I believe it's a nobel cause, but I don't see myself as a person capable of raising a child (as in I'd be a bad parent), and I wouldn't want to take the risk to find out.
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I'll bite: So why would you be a bad parent?
 
Bounceounce said:
As someone who was adopted (by a family member), and as someone with three little brothers who were adopted by a nice family.....no.
When I was younger adoption was always my go to answer to questions of having kids as I saw it as more helpful than having kids of my own (far before I became an antinatalist), and I still float the idea of adoption to other people whenever the topic of kids come up because I believe it's a nobel cause, but I don't see myself as a person capable of raising a child (as in I'd be a bad parent), and I wouldn't want to take the risk to find out.
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So we were right. This is not about this so-called 'consent argument'. Just you being afraid of people judging you because you don't want to have kids since you feel you'd be bad at it. You don't need to justify yourself, man.
 
I think it takes a certain amount of arrogance and/or naivete to bring a new life into this world, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it immoral.

For every person out there who wishes they had never been born, there are a whole bunch who love life.
 
Bounceounce said:
I find the act of having a children to be one either solely based around an individual's desires, or the result of social conditioning that "This is just what people do so now I have to do it."
And I don't believe my individual desire would be enough cause to justify creating another, non-consenting human being.
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Oh I guess this is one of those "I need to rebel against the world" thing.

Or maybe this is like one of those blank canvas art thing, i.e. trying to create philosophical musings/artsy phrases to hide behind what is frankly a rather stupid thing. "Oh you need to picture the blankness of the canvass as a representation of your soul and thus a beautiful form of art..." No, it's a goddamn blank canvas.
 
Mik2121 said:
So.. your parents did an immoral thing and they shouldn't have had you? With that kind of mentality, sounds about right!


Just kidding. But no, that mentality is just absurd. People saying they're doing their part by not having kids just don't know what they're saying and are trying to simply be edgy.
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From my perspective? I don't particularly care that she did because she was a teen, and she certainly wasn't pondering the concept of "antinatalism", so she did what people do and gave birth to me, though I'd be lying if I said her having me didn't make me prefer teen abortion from a practical (and admittedly negative) perspective (as I don't believe it was an intelligent decision to have my older sister, or my three little brothers).
But yah, I guess that under my antinatalist argument I do consider it immoral.

I'm not trying to be edgy, I'm not hating on anyone, it's just the direction my thoughts lead me.
 
Laughing Banana said:
Oh I guess this is one of those "I need to rebel against the world" thing.
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Not necessarily. He does make a valid point there. Nowadays people have kids willy-nilly just because it's expected of them. I know people who even treat them like they're freaking properties or goods. One of these days parents are going to start trading them, as if they are trading cards or something.

"I'll trade you one of my twins for your biracial daughter, I have two of these anyway"
 
OP one day you're going to meet an amazing woman who will want to start a family, and if you love her, you will quickly reassess your "philosophies" and do your best for her.

She will also die in childbirth and leave you to raise the kid yourself, because life likes to throw in some plot twists to keep things interesting
 
Laughing Banana said:
Oh I guess this is one of those "I need to rebel against the world" thing.
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No I'm pretty damn conformist (at minimum in how I carry myself), that's one of those "people do things because that's just what people do" things because that's what people including myself do things.
Which is why when someone mentions something that goes outside of those lines people like you immediately squash any consideration into them.
 
HawksWinStanley said:
On any other forum I would assume this was a joke.
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Join today !

Voluntary Human Extinction Movement
“May we live long and die out”
Phasing out the human race by voluntarily ceasing to breed will allow Earth’s biosphere to return to good health.
http://www.vhemt.org/

tnb.bizarro.jpg
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Mawnster said:
Not necessarily. He does make a valid point there. Nowadays people have kids willy-nilly just because it's expected of them. I know people who even treat them like they're freaking properties or goods. One of these days parents are going to start trading them, as if they are trading cards or something.

"I'll trade you one of my twins for your biracial daughter, I have two of these anyway"
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Not wanting to have kids because you figure yourself as a person incapable of taking care of them? Cool. It's rational, explainable, logical.

Not wanting to have kids because you can't get consent from the kids that aren't even there yet? Stupid.

Bounceounce said:
No I'm pretty damn conformist (at minimum in how I carry myself), that's one of those "people do things because that's just what people do" things because that's what people including myself do things.
Which is why when someone mentions something that goes outside of those lines people like you immediately squash any consideration into them.
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Hey, your life man, you do you. You decide to share the reasoning behind your decision to us, the general public, so surely you are prepared to hear what members of the general public are thinking about your reasoning, yeah? I just thought your reasoning is just a bunch of philosophical hogwash--it may "sound" clever but in truth it's just really rather stupid.

But again, your life, you do you!
 
People are willfully misunderstanding op. If you give birth to another human being, your decision is a but for cause of any suffering that being endures, including but not limited to the lead up to and fact of death. That's heavy. There's nothing edgy in acknowledging that because it's the truth. We're all brought into the world whether we like it or not. In your lowest moment, you might wonder if you would have chosen to live at all if given the choice. That's not a crazy out there line of thought. People commit suicide every day following that reasoning.

My answer to the problem is that I believe that life's worth it on balance. Yes you're rolling the dice on someone else's life when you have kids, but as long as you realize what's at stake and do everything in your power to raise your children to lead a good life, then (I think) it's a moral decision.
 
Bounceounce said:
No I'm pretty damn conformist (at minimum in how I carry myself), that's one of those "people do things because that's just what people do" things because that's what people including myself do things.
Which is why when someone mentions something that goes outside of those lines people like you immediately squash any consideration into them.
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You're basically arguing for the extinction of our species. It's hard not to squash consideration of that.
 
Bounceounce said:
Over the past few months I've come to the conclusion that I'm an Anti-Natalist, not along the lines of a "Childfree" zealot, but to the point that if it were possible for me to have a child, I would never choose so as I wouldn't want to force anyone into existence without consent, as it crosses a threshold in my personal moral code.
But I've found that this belief, like with determinism or nihilism, tend to only draw ire/confusion, from people totally unwilling to see your point so they just shut down and act incredibly dismissive towards anyone peddling them.
Have any anti-natalists here dealt with that?
Have any of you been the people I'm describing?
Why are, or why are you not an anti-natalist?
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I could see your logic until you got to "wouldn't want to force anyone into existence without consent." That makes no sense and is absurd to me for reasons I'm sure others in this thread have already laid out.
 
Laughing Banana said:
Not wanting to have kids because you figure yourself as a person incapable of taking care of them? Cool. It's rational, explainable, logical.

Not wanting to have kids because you can't get consent from the kids that aren't even there yet? Stupid.
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Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't agree with his nonsensical 'consent argument'. I just think it is kinda true that sometimes we do things just because we're expected to do them, and having kids is one of them.
 
NotTheGuyYouKill said:
My friend knows an anti-natalist. He lives alone in the woods outside of Chilliwack. He is apparently very eerie.

That's the extent of my knowledge and/or interaction with anti-natalists who don't want to have children because it compromises their morality.

I like kids and I want kids.
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Chilliwack has/creates a special kind of people
 
Bounceounce said:
I find the act of having a children to be one either solely based around an individual's desires, or the result of social conditioning that "This is just what people do so now I have to do it."
And I don't believe my individual desire would be enough cause to justify creating another, non-consenting human being.
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Wrong. It's a biological imperative.
 
I have at least two friends who are for different reasons. One of them told me that she wished she had been given an option when she was born and thought it unfair to bring someone into existence without doing so. She was also worried about not being a good enough parent. The other said she thought it immoral because of global warming and other things we wont have to deal with ourselves but our children definitely will. She considered adoption to be an ok thing.

I don't feel strongly either way but I see their reasoning. I might have children but consider it slightly selfish in my situation.
 
Mawnster said:
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't agree with his nonsensical 'consent argument'. I just think it is kinda true that sometimes we do things just because we're expected to do them, and having kids is one of them.
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Of course we do things because we're expected to do them. Go to school, go to college, get a job, etc etc. None of those things are critical to the survival of our species. Reproduction is.
 
Bounceounce said:
but I don't see myself as a person capable of raising a child (as in I'd be a bad parent), and I wouldn't want to take the risk to find out.
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See the thing about bad parents is they aren't self aware enough to think they are/would be bad parents. That's literally what makes them bad parents. So if you care enough to be concerned about being a bad parent, that probably means you'll be concerned enough to not be a bad parent if you became a parent.

I have two kids. Being on the other side of your fence I can tell you they're game changers. I'd literally die for them. It's such a crazy concept to even think that, but it's totally true. I think about them everyday, many times a day. They bring a ton of joy to me daily. I take a ton of pride in the little things they do. What's even better is you, the parent, get to be a kid again through their eyes. You get to guide them and help them and watch them process the world like you once did. And you can try to help them avoid pitfalls you faced... It's all very magical.

I think if someone can reasonably afford to take care of a child and doesn't they are missing out on one of life's most amazing treasures. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's tremendous sacrifice and difficulty, but the joy far outweighs the hardships.

That doesn't man I think people who never have children are "bad" or that I look down on them as inferior. I'm just saying, having experienced it, I highly recommended it! But of course, I say this with a very somber caveat... It's extremely important that a parent's life is in a place where they can both monetarily afford to raise a child and devote the time and focus required to raise them properly as well. Meaning, I can totally empathize with the hardships brought up from being a single parent, very young parents, low-income family or a parent with a serious illness, or other heavy burdens to they'd have to contend with.

Sidenote... Have you not watched Idiocracy?
 
I have a ton of reasons for not wanting children, but their consent isn't one of them. Even if I had a letter from the future begging me to born them I'd avoid doing so.

Though I do consider how adding another life to this planet would probably be bad for them in the future and it's part of why I don't care much for it. I wouldn't want that on my conscious, I already sort of worry about the kids in my family as it is.
 
Nafai1123 said:
Of course we do things because we're expected to do them. Go to school, go to college, get a job, etc etc. None of those things are critical to the survival of our species. Reproduction is.
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That's uh... Not what I meant. I was talking about the kind of people who'll have kids just for the sake of having them. People who treat them like properties, goods or pets. "My friends had 3 kids, so I guess I should too", not really knowing WHY or not really WANTING these kids. I don't think this kind of people are critical to our species. If anything they're what's wrong with it.
 
I think an important question that ties into the OP's point is whether or not suicide is immoral.

It's been a long time, so maybe opinions have changed, but I remember a vocal contingent of GAF looking down on suicide as wrong and cowardly. If it's okay to bring someone into this world without their consent, then it should also be okay for them to leave it.
 
I can't take this seriously. How do you get consent from someone who doesn't exist yet? Seems ridiculously stupid and try hard to me. We're in neckbeard territory.
 
KO Traveling Hobo said:
I think an important question that ties into the OP's point is whether or not suicide is immoral.
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I don't think he considers suicide to be immoral. If his philosophy explores the idea of giving people full control of their lives, then he's basically in favour of being able to decide whether to live (be born) / die (cease to exist - suicide).

Or am I wrong?
 
OP, I respect the desire to not procreate in an effort to not add more humans to a world already lousy with them... but the consent part completely loses me.

There is no in-utero creature that would choose to not exist, because they literally cannot choose that. They are operating on a purely biological level. Human brains have not even evolved enough to know how to reason at a basic level at this stage of development, or dream, or know almost ANYTHING. All they know is: keep feeding. That's it. You can't choose not to do that until life presents you reasons not to do so, and you actually understand those reasons.

You can't project choice onto beings who have none.
 
Mawnster said:
I don't think he considers suicide to be immoral. If his philosophy explores the idea of giving people full control of their lives, then he's basically in favour of being able to decide whether to live (be born) / die (cease to exist - suicide).

Or am I wrong?
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That question was aimed more at people who think the OP is a crazy person than at the OP himself, for the reason you just explained.
 
Mawnster said:
That's uh... Not what I meant. I was talking about the kind of people who'll have kids just for the sake of having them. People who treat them like properties, goods or pets. "My friends had 3 kids, so I guess I should too", not really knowing WHY or not really WANTING these kids. I don't think this kind of people are critical to our species. If anything they're what's wrong with it.
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That's fair, and I agree with the sentiment. There are plenty of people who should not have children but do anyways. When you say "we" I implied humans as a species, and I wouldn't generalize the human race as those you describe, even though they may take up an uncomfortable percentage of the population.

We need those who should reproduce to counteract those who shouldn't.
 
Bounceounce said:
That's the point.
You can't get consent from them.
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So basically you're refusing a societal expectation that you feel anxious about, and justifying your refusal adding a conditional to that expectation that you know to be an impossibility?

It's okay if you don't want to have kids, but your "philosophy" is bupkis.
 
KO Traveling Hobo said:
That question was aimed more at people who think the OP is a crazy person than at the OP himself, for the reason you just explained.
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I'd say suicide routinely affects more than just the person committing suicide -- chiefly their friends and family. Their act can leave very deep, painful and lasting scars.
 
"I don't feel comfortable bringing a child in today's world."
"I'm simply not interested in raising children.
"I would rather adopt children than have my own."

Those aren't totally unusual sentiments, and I can buy any of those kinds of reasons.

But having the child is immoral as a consent issue? I don't buy it. Antinatalism also seems to base itself on the idea that pain and suffering are completely "bad," something that I don't really buy either.

The rational argument in terms of children, suffering and consent would be to argue for a world that provides some kind of equal opportunity, eliminates as much suffering as possible and gives everyone the freedom to be whoever they want. Advocating for what is essential human extinction via voluntary childlessness is never going to get you anything but dismissiveness from most people.
 
Bounceounce said:
That's the point.
You can't get consent from them.
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Something that doesn't exist yet can't really consent to anything. In fact, even the notion of consent to existing is silly.

"Nothing" has no voice, thoughts, or really any form of conscience. It's factually impossible.
 
If the kids aren't having a good time they can just crawl back in and get absorbed by the womb.
 
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