Support NeoGAF

[A Fish Aficionado]

Which is why the discussion is not about obtaining consent from the unborn.

But you are arguing from such a distance that it becomes irrational.
People have kids, people want kids. Because people don't want kids at a certain instance isn't a rejection of the past.
I'm pro abortion rights because being so lowers abortions. This is scientific and empirical.

 

[Septimius]

Lab animals and the ethical guidelines around them are in ways we humans think of the non-conscientious to be apart of.

Ethical guidelines are more relative ethics conclusion reached by some assembly of people. It has nothing to do with the philosophy of ethics.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Ethical guidelines are more relative ethics conclusion reached by some assembly of people. It has nothing to do with philosophy.

Um ethics is philosophy,
We would not have these procedures and independent review boards if it wasn't.
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/research/resources/bioethics/whatis/

 

[Red Liquorice]

Sounds kind of daft. If you don't want kids don't have them, why does it have to be a thing with a label and a stance?

 

[Septimius]

Um ethics is philosophy,

The philosophy of ethics must be interpreted as the meta discussion of ethics. When it comes to the discussion of consent from a non-existent being, the ethical guidelines in lab rats do not pertain to the philosophical questions surrounding consent from a non-existent being. It is to say that a review board reaching ethical guidelines, that review board will reach its conclusion by finding the ethical way to relate to the issue at hand. It is not to say that it pertains to the philosophy in the meta-ethical discussion of consent as presented in this case.

I'm saying ethical guidelines teaches us nothing about the philosophy behind ethics

 

[Window]

I can see this thought (and have in some existentialist thinking) born of a sense of nihilism (considering existence as inherently cruel, chaotic due to a lack of purpose) but to take issues because of consent? That's a new one. Though I can kind of see the link since if one believes in the former then they must consider that existence of a being should only take form if they are willing to endure its cruelty - which is impossible to gather of course.

 

[Benzychenz]

If no one exists then no one can feel pain.

Human extinction is the morally right course of action.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

If no one exists then no one can feel pain.

Human extinction is the morally right course of action.

Animals feel pain.

The philosophy of ethics must be interpreted as the meta discussion of ethics. When it comes to the discussion of consent from a non-existent being, the ethical guidelines in lab rats do not pertain to the philosophical questions surrounding consent from a non-existent being. It is to say that a review board reaching ethical guidelines, that review board will reach its conclusion by finding the ethical way to relate to the issue at hand. It is not to say that it pertains to the philosophy in the meta-ethical discussion of consent as presented in this case.

I'm saying ethical guidelines teaches us nothing about the philosophy behind ethics

I can kinda agree with this.

 

[oneils]

Aren't there anti-theists who believe that a power that created life is an immoral one for not having considered their consent? I don't know, I seem to remember something like this and it doesn't seem so different from anti-natalism.

Would that philosophy get the same reaction?

I think I get the idea,of anti-natalism, but also understand the impossibility of the situation for humans.

 

[zoukka]

I can respect the belief of OP. From a pure ecological POV it's selfish and destructive to have children. I don't really agree on the consent part though.

Most people are not good parents so that also supports a mind set of not having kids.

 

[RocknRola]

Over the past few months I've come to the conclusion that I'm an Anti-Natalist, not along the lines of a "Childfree" zealot, but to the point that if it were possible for me to have a child, I would never choose so as I wouldn't want to force anyone into existence without consent, as it crosses a threshold in my personal moral code.
But I've found that this belief, like with determinism or nihilism, tend to only draw ire/confusion, from people totally unwilling to see your point so they just shut down and act incredibly dismissive towards anyone peddling them.
Have any anti-natalists here dealt with that?
Have any of you been the people I'm describing?
Why are, or why are you not an anti-natalist?

......you do understand that's impossible correct? No life ever created on this planet can ever consent to anything before being born as it would require some form of existance before actually existing in the first place.

Other than that, yeah sure. If you don't want kids thats cool. Loads of people don't want to be parents, and as far a I'm concerned, that's a perfectly valid and reasonable choice. The path to happyness is different for everyone of us, if not having kids is what you need to get there, then go for it.

 

[Window]

I can respect the belief of OP. From a pure ecological POV it's selfish and destructive to have children. I don't really agree on the consent part though.

How can an ecological environment exist or sustain without procreation?

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Answering nonsense with nonsense.
Where does this miracle idea come from anyway? I'm no anti-natalist, but that strikes me as disingenuous, and something you want to believe, just because.

Same with the line about struggle, when i think about the average life of most people in the world, especially throughout history, that looks pretty fucking miserable, whether you're overthinking it or not.
At a base level, nature seems pretty violent and vile to me, it's scary to even think about, honestly.

But i guess it makes me feel a bit better about how good i'm having it, even when i'm broke, depressed, etc etc.

Even if you're anti-natalist, you should consider that a lot of people find more joy than dread in life or people would be jumping off rooftops in droves.
And even if you don't, the silver lining is: When you'll be dead you won't remember all your sufferings, might as well give it a shot.

It's a miracle because we exist and are aware. Right this moment is special in many ways. It all comes to this point on the being of life.

You experience joy, love, hate, pain, happiness because we are. When you are listing to a new piece of music it's just not for example a few fingers on a piano.

First there was life, then we evolved to beings who are aware of music and are capable of producing music. This is a billion year process.

This is why when you do certain things you feel alive (actually you live in the now for that brief moment). And that feeling is a miracle.

There is either nothing or there is life. And there is either awareness or there is not.

This particular moment in time which will eventually die is amazing and for me a miracle. Now a miracle for you can mean something else of course.

This is why I feel that it is no nonsense. And therefor I say just enjoy life and try to live in the now, it will all be over anyways. Don't try to find a reason for life, there is none because it's a miracle.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I'm just grateful that OP will never be a parent.

"OP, how did your newborn baby starve to death?"

"I asked it for consent to feed it and it wouldn't give it to me."

 

[MarkMclovin]

OP would have had a half decent, if a little looney, point and discussion if he/she didn't fuck it up with the 'consent' bit.

It's a shame because now and then, especially with a few beers, I really like thought provoking discussions. But when strong crazy talk is chucked in without thinking about it first, just makes whatever discussion the OP wanted fall apart.

 

[Easy_D]

Nah I don't want kids just because I don't like kids, they're annoying as fuck. Too many damn times spent shopping with a kid screaming from the top of their lungs to make me even consider the thought :lol. They're terrible.

Somehow I ended up owning a cat though and I love the little furball very much, so I guess you should never say never.

 

[SolarMystic]

Look, I have plenty of issues, and multiple times a day feel the urge to go run and hide in a hole for the rest of my life amongst other things, but whatever issues I'm dealing with are auxiliary to the thought exercise in the morality of having a child.
In other words, don't be a dick.

That's the idea, unborn children are incapable of consent, so subjecting them to life on your whims is "wrong".

Your avoiding certain questions, probably on purpose as it would compromise your stance on your issue.

Instead of asking a question that you will just avoid again, I will say that it is incredibly rude and downright offensive to project onto others that deciding to have a child is something that the parents don't put a lot of thought into, just do it on a "whim" in your words.

Not wanting to have children is fine, one doesn't even need an explanation. Having children is just not want some people want and it's totally okay.

But projecting your ideas onto others that parents make these decisions on a whim or without careful consideration is just blatantly short-sighted of you.

 

[poppabk]

How can an ecological environment exist or sustain without procreation?

More than that, ecological considerations don't exist without intelligent life to discern them.

 

[tmespe]

Are you against having sex OP? Because that is a logical consequence of your argument. If you have sex then you expose "an unborn child" to being born without consent. That would be against your moral code.

Edit: Referring to vaginal intercourse here. There are of course other forms of sex without such risks.

 

[Gloggins]

The consent angle isn't a thing for me. It's more the bad effects humans have on our planet and the acceleration of species extinction due to our 7.5 billion and ever increasing numbers. I do respect people more who adopt, they give a kid a much needed home without creating more strain on the planets resources.

 

[TrutaS]

I believe there is a point in the evolution of human morality where you need to draw a line between the relevant and the self-indulgent. Questioning a being's will to exist is something you can only consider after their brains have fully formed and developed to be able to even pose and then answer that question. To allow someone the freedom to think this question and answer it you need to allow them to exist. Therefore, chicken and egg. Considering that until a being questions their existence, they are actually programmed instinctually to want to exist, I personally think it's the more moral choice to let them exist first, ask questions later.

BUT, by all accounts, if you don't want to have kids you should decide so, and live your life happy and full. If your moral dilemma makes sense to you, you should live by it. Problem comes if you get in a position of power and try to enforce it upon others, thinking that your moral choice is the only valid one a person can have.

 

[zoukka]

How can an ecological environment exist or sustain without procreation?

The procreation of homo sapiens sustains nothing at all.

 

[lem0n]

Don't worry, the situation won't arise

I just laughed for like 20 seconds

 

[Bishop89]

Over the past few months I've come to the conclusion that I'm an Anti-Natalist, not along the lines of a "Childfree" zealot, but to the point that if it were possible for me to have a child, I would never choose so as I wouldn't want to force anyone into existence without consent, as it crosses a threshold in my personal moral code.
But I've found that this belief, like with determinism or nihilism, tend to only draw ire/confusion, from people totally unwilling to see your point so they just shut down and act incredibly dismissive towards anyone peddling them.
Have any anti-natalists here dealt with that?
Have any of you been the people I'm describing?
Why are, or why are you not an anti-natalist?

and how exactly would you get this consent?

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Don't worry, the situation won't arise

Ahaha

 

[nel e nel]

I can respect the belief of OP. From a pure ecological POV it's selfish and destructive to have children. I don't really agree on the consent part though.

Most people are not good parents so that also supports a mind set of not having kids.

How can an ecological environment exist or sustain without procreation?

More than that, ecological considerations don't exist without intelligent life to discern them.

Not to mention a lot of our ecological problems are due to waste, over-consumption and not using renewable energy, not population numbers.

Also, most are bad parents? Sure, most of us have no clue what we're doing, and make up a lot as we go along, but inexperienced /= bad.

 

[Zombine]

What if our Grandchildren do want to be born though? Wouldn't that be selfish of our unborn children?

I'm putting my girlfriend in time out.

 

[Kurdel]

Are you against having sex OP? Because that is a logical consequence of your argument. If you have sex then you expose "an unborn child" to being born without consent. That would be against your moral code.

What if op has a vasectomy?

 

[Exis]

I mean I got snipped in my late 20's as I don't want the cost of children and want to retire some day. But this is kind wonky

 

[Jellycrackers]

Baby Jellycrackers is due in June. It's impossible to tell whether or not it wants to be born, but I can't wait to raise him/her and she that kid that life IS worth living.

Don't worry, the situation won't arise

Also, this killed me. Hahaha

 

[Linkark07]

I... honestly dunno what to say... first time I discover something like this.

Like others have said, I understand not wanting children considering how bad is the Earth situation but because of a moral code...

Anyways, I would love to have a child. But wouldn't do it unless my partner is up to help me raise our child.

 

[Chinese Cartoons]

Simple beings desire simple needs, sex and having children is for simpletons I on the other hand have evolved to a realm where I am above it. Why would anyone bring a child into this world unless youre rich.

Suffering is not worth it.

 

[Oppo]

Simple beings desire simple needs, sex and having children is for simpletons I on the other hand have evolved to a realm where I am above it. Why would anyone bring a child into this world unless youre rich.

Suffering is not worth it.

the evolved realm of Anime, I take it?

 

[wesleyshark]

I was having so much damn fun gta style as a non corporeal entity, my asshole "parents" just had to drag me into this world with its stupid rules!

How dare our parents yank us into this realm. Sad!

 

[Disxo]

I dont like kids, and I would dislike having them.
But your way of reasoning is just too much, it seems like you are looking for excuses where you not need them.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Aren't there anti-theists who believe that a power that created life is an immoral one for not having considered their consent? I don't know, I seem to remember something like this and it doesn't seem so different from anti-natalism.

Would that philosophy get the same reaction?

I think I get the idea,of anti-natalism, but also understand the impossibility of the situation for humans.

Yes they are called Gnostics and they pretty much believe that the "creator god" is a corrupt and immoral debasement of the true god. Gnostic can simply be put on a chart as the opposite of Agnostic as the people who claim you can know the truth about god vs the people who say you cannot. But Gnostic Christians have or had some particular claims about what they know for sure and one is that the figure we know of as God is corrupt and malign. But the world is divided between this corruption and the true divine essence that this god manipulates. As you can imagine teachings that insist that the God of the Bible or Quoran is evil were not always accepted with open arms through history.

 

[Cepheus]

I don't plan on ever having children, though that's mainly because I don't trust myself to look after a pet, let alone a child. Also, I don't like children that much. My mother's not getting any grandchildren out of me or my siblings. Not that it matters, since overpopulation is a bad thing,

 

[BudokaiMR2]

The procreation of homo sapiens sustains nothing at all.

But think of the memes!
The memes!

 

[The_Hitcher89]

I'd be fucking livid if I'd never exised just because my parents couldn't get my consent

 

[Mr. Poolman]

In 10 years OP will be ashamed of this.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

I respect not wanting to have children, but your reasoning is quite frankly absurd. It makes zero sense to talk about a natural phenomena like this in moral terms of "consent". It's meaningless. Gibberish.

Sperms and eggs don't give a fuck, they don't sign no deal. Human beings strive to evolve. Creation itself strives to evolve.

 

[Servbot24]

That's the idea, unborn children are incapable of consent, so subjecting them to life on your whims is "wrong".

Nonexistent beings don't have rights. Nothing immoral about it, that's just how nature is.

 

[CloudWolf]

That's it, I'm suing my parents.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

If I didn't already have kids, I'd post the OP word for word on Facebook for the lulz.

 

[CrossTrigger]

My son consented the minute he started swimming. Lol but seriously I respect your views and beliefs.

 

[tmespe]

What if op has a vasectomy?

According to Wikipedia, there is still a slight chance (0.07%) of failure. But I'm not ruling out that OP does a semen analysis before every intercourse.

 

[Professor Chaos]

If anyone wants to dive in the deep end at this kind of thinking, there is a book called The Conspiracy Against the Human Race, which incidentally inspired a lot of Cole's musings in True Detective.

 

[Zoggy]

i read OP as "anti-analist" and tbh while I've never tried going in a butt, I'm not gonna reject it.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Simple beings desire simple needs, sex and having children is for simpletons I on the other hand have evolved to a realm where I am above it. Why would anyone bring a child into this world unless youre rich.

Suffering is not worth it.

 

[Kacho]

Good. Let's not spread these genes.

Holy shit LMAO

OP you sound a bit strange. How old are you btw?