AudioEppa
Member
I was just about to this, like seriously wtf lol
The Last of Us Part II announced
- Thread starter Greatest Ever
- Start date
I was just about to this, like seriously wtf lol
GravityInsanity
Member
TheMagician
Member
The guy is a cold blooded murderer.
He murdered people just so he could spend time with a young girl.
That's completely messed up.
Think of the people in real jails for murder now in the real world. You don't think they can do other bad stuff?
Devilinthiscity
Member
This thread took a weird turn...
Anyway, I rewatched the PSX panel and still feel reassured about part II not sucking. I hope the story takes place around the west coast. I remember seeing concept art for a SF area that looked amazing.
Anyway, I rewatched the PSX panel and still feel reassured about part II not sucking. I hope the story takes place around the west coast. I remember seeing concept art for a SF area that looked amazing.
Negotiator
Banned
I think you're confusing Joel with David...
Yeah, maybe this is what's happening :/
Heckler456
Banned
The implication made there isn't that he murdered those doctors to "be with her". It's that he didn't have any other choice but to do everything in his power to make up for his failure with Sarah. You're attributing creepiness to something that isn't creepy.
Also, you seemingly don't have any qualms about a group of lost-causers murdering a girl "for the greater good" without actually waking her up and checking with her if she's alright with it. Still ain't convinced you aren't trolling.
Joel murdered people to protect Ellie because he sees her as a daughter figure by the end of the game.
If this is bait then good job, you got us.
TissueBox
Member
It's more complicated than that. The existence of hypocrisy for example. A lot of bad things and good things can make up a person in the same time. Sometimes, a person is amoral all around, in other cases, one aspect of their morality is tainted. Joel, like many real-life humans/criminals, is the latter. He's a killer with love -- a hypocrite.
In the end, Joel was the absolute hero.
TheMagician
Member
Joel saved Ellie's life, when her life could have saved a million more.
But did you not pay attention to the rest of the game? Did you not pick up on the fact that Ellie became Joel's surrogate daughter. She filled a huge gap that had been gone from his life, since the death of his daughter.
And yes, Joel murders a lot of people, that's how he's survived for so long in this world. Does that make him a good guy, no, but it certainly doesn't indicate that he now wants to rape Ellie.
TheMagician
Member
Who says he wants to rape Ellie?
I just see him as the type that could lash out at her now and then with how aggressive he has become.
Again, you are shifting your point. How in the world does that indicate he wants to rape her?
Yeah...trolling confirmed, because if this was your original point you would not have phrased it like this:
PROh1bited
Banned
Just stop.
Joel clearly thinks of her as his daughter, not someone he wants to fuck.
Oh come on!
You were definitely insinuating that. Him becoming aggressive with her is a completely different subject, which while unlikely seems much more plausible than your earlier theory.
Heckler456
Banned
That's such a profoundly simplistic interpretation of the story.
What's the value of a life? If you were in his situation, would you have willingly sacrificed someone you hold incredibly dear, even if it saved a million people? What about a thousand? Or a hundred? What about saving 10 lives for the price of one? Where do you personally draw the line? What about sacrificing your own life? What if a million people get born into abject misery and suffering thanks to your choice?
The point of the matter is that the value of a life is based upon perspective, and from Joel's perspective, Ellie's life is absolutely invaluable.
TheMagician
Member
Oh come on!
You were definitely insinuating that. Him becoming aggressive with her is a completely different subject, which while unlikely seems much more plausible than your earlier theory.
I never once mentioned that.
I consider him a dark, seedy and aggressive guy by the end of the first game.
I guarantee that by Part II their relationship may be a bit strained because of it.
TheMagician
Member
I believe the end of the game was meant to leave you wondering whether you did the right thing or not.
Joel chooses to not tell Ellie the truth because he thinks he probably didn't.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
This game gotta have more than three kinds of infected, right?
Hopefully the cordyceps has mutated and also latches on to animals. Or maybe this focuses entirely on humans.
Hopefully the cordyceps has mutated and also latches on to animals. Or maybe this focuses entirely on humans.
No way. Wouldn't be TLoU without any infected.
Tbh i thought he meant being physically aggressive after a few drinks or something like that and that a lot of people here really jumped to the rape thing. Could be because English is not my first language though.
I am of two minds to this
On one hand, it would add variety to the first games very limited enemy pool.
On the other hand, something about zombie animals has this campy tone to it, and kinda contrasts with the tone tlou goes for. I think showing new ways the infection evolved would be interesting, but it could also be really stupid.
Heckler456
Banned
I don't think he even had anyone else's well-being in mind except for his and Ellie's at that point. That's the thing, we see a choice. Sacrifice Ellie or not. But for Joel, there was no choice. He was always going to save Ellie. Like he said a bit before everything went down, he wasn't going to leave without her. Point being, the only reason he lied is either because he wanted to protect his relationship with Ellie, and as a consequence protect Ellie; or altruistically protect Ellie at the potential cost of their relationship. He doesn't really give a shit about this whole vaccine thing.
I thought the bloater was already straining credibility, even within the universe. I think that they should keep it grounded, and let variety come from having those three-way battles and interesting setpieces.
It's the word "desperate" that probably made people start thinking of rape. You don't really physically abuse someone out of desperation. However, being desperate is commonly associated with wanting to relieve sexual longing.
He described Joel as seedy and said he might do something 'bad' (he even emphasized this) on a dark and desperate night.
This fucking reads like he is insinuating rape.
He should have just said "I feel Joel might physically abuse Ellie or harm her" but how he responded vaguely in a lot of his posts sounds like he is calling Joel a rapist.
How is letting people get an inaccurate impression by being vague an improvement over being clear about what you mean? You can get banned for insensitivity either way.
She's athletic and almost certainly not getting a particularly amazing diet, both of which could contribute to whatever her genetic destiny would be. Of course you're right that unlike real life this was a conscious decision a decision to make the focus on the player something other than her body. Color me thankful.
We tend to notice right away the things that matter to us. I noticed her tattoo because it serves an obvious purpose. I noticed her chord technique because I play guitar. I noticed her furrowed brow and the obvious injuries because I care about the character. You could have asked me immediately after watching the trailer to estimate her cup size and I wouldn't have had a clue, despite the fact that I'm attracted pretty much exclusively to women. It just wasn't a relevant part of the reveal.
Probably not, but I doubt it was a significant takeaway for many and most of the rest who did notice had the social graces not to dwell on it.
Heckler456
Banned
It's a drama driven zombie apocalyps trolley problem
Hey, I said that his interpretation was profoundly simplistic, not that mine was incredibly profound
SolidSnakex
Member
They originally had plans for animals to be infected as well. But that was scrapped. I don't think they said whether that was due to narrative (as in animals don't get infected) or technical reasons.
I can't imagine Joel really becoming aggressive with Ellie now that he's personified her as his daughter. His daughter is basically a saintly figure to him, divine. One thing I think people miss with Joel is that loving someone too much is as broken a mentality as being uncaring about the deaths of others, and that's how Joel views Ellie because he's a really fucked up guy.
When Joel is otherwise threatened, he prioritizes survival above everything else. It's not that he survives for some greater purpose, some ideal, he just survives and keeps surviving as long as possible. To him, there is no action he couldn't commit to if it was in the name of survival. That's his justification to his brother, to tess, and even to Ellie at the end. "We always find a reason to survive" and puts anything bad in his life (even stuff that isn't his fault, like Henry and Sam) in the "lets just not think about that" box. Until Ellie. The ending sequence is proof. He could have had a much easier time just leaving the fireflies if he just left Ellie, but he went out of his way to endanger himself for no other purpose than to save Ellie. Survival was finally not the only thing on his mind.
The problem is that while you can come up with morally compelling reasons for why saving Ellie is the right thing to do, those aren't really the reason Joel has, atleast as far as my reading of his character goes. His reasons come down to the fact that HE doesn't want to go back to the empty and meaningless existence that comes with 'merely' surviving. For him, he has his daughter back. At the ending sequence, all he talks about is how he projects Sara onto Ellie now. And when asked, he feels the need to lie to Ellie, because telling her the truth would give her the opportunity to disagree with his decision. In that sense, I view him as controlling of Ellie, as a parent. He's not her father though. They have something resembling that relationship, but Ellie defied Joel viewing her as his daughter back at the barn while yet trying to convince him to stay with her as her companion. It's difficult to figure out how Ellie truly feels about his answer at the end, but I got the sense that she wants to be with someone who cares about her above all else, but also wants be viewed as her own person, and Joel's supplementation of her as his daughter has taken that away from her. She's no longer Ellie the kid the kid who swears too much but has a good heart. She's Sara 2.0.
But regardless, now that Joel views her as his daughter, she's the one thing that ranks above 'survival' to him. She's become his personal divine savior, his being in touch with humanity. He can no longer appreciate the beauty of a giraffe himself, but Ellie can, and he can appreciate it through her. As a result, I don't think he'd ever become violent with her. He'd misinform her, lie to her, try to convince her out of decisions for his sake, refuse to treat her as her own person, but he'd never harm her. He idealizes her too much to do that.
When Joel is otherwise threatened, he prioritizes survival above everything else. It's not that he survives for some greater purpose, some ideal, he just survives and keeps surviving as long as possible. To him, there is no action he couldn't commit to if it was in the name of survival. That's his justification to his brother, to tess, and even to Ellie at the end. "We always find a reason to survive" and puts anything bad in his life (even stuff that isn't his fault, like Henry and Sam) in the "lets just not think about that" box. Until Ellie. The ending sequence is proof. He could have had a much easier time just leaving the fireflies if he just left Ellie, but he went out of his way to endanger himself for no other purpose than to save Ellie. Survival was finally not the only thing on his mind.
The problem is that while you can come up with morally compelling reasons for why saving Ellie is the right thing to do, those aren't really the reason Joel has, atleast as far as my reading of his character goes. His reasons come down to the fact that HE doesn't want to go back to the empty and meaningless existence that comes with 'merely' surviving. For him, he has his daughter back. At the ending sequence, all he talks about is how he projects Sara onto Ellie now. And when asked, he feels the need to lie to Ellie, because telling her the truth would give her the opportunity to disagree with his decision. In that sense, I view him as controlling of Ellie, as a parent. He's not her father though. They have something resembling that relationship, but Ellie defied Joel viewing her as his daughter back at the barn while yet trying to convince him to stay with her as her companion. It's difficult to figure out how Ellie truly feels about his answer at the end, but I got the sense that she wants to be with someone who cares about her above all else, but also wants be viewed as her own person, and Joel's supplementation of her as his daughter has taken that away from her. She's no longer Ellie the kid the kid who swears too much but has a good heart. She's Sara 2.0.
But regardless, now that Joel views her as his daughter, she's the one thing that ranks above 'survival' to him. She's become his personal divine savior, his being in touch with humanity. He can no longer appreciate the beauty of a giraffe himself, but Ellie can, and he can appreciate it through her. As a result, I don't think he'd ever become violent with her. He'd misinform her, lie to her, try to convince her out of decisions for his sake, refuse to treat her as her own person, but he'd never harm her. He idealizes her too much to do that.
Heckler456
Banned
Why not simply have Tomb Raider-like wildernis encounters with regular-ass wild animals? I think that could work quite well given the right set-up.
One thing, I kind of read them including the whole "you know, me and sarah used to take hikes like this. I bet she would have liked you." bit as them making sure the viewer knows that he still keeps the two apart, and doesn't necessarily see her as a reincarnation of his daughter.
One thing, I kind of read them including the whole "you know, me and sarah used to take hikes like this. I bet she would have liked you." bit as them making sure the viewer knows that he still keeps the two apart, and doesn't necessarily see her as a reincarnation of his daughter.
We already know animals can transmit the infection from the first game so the concept is there
DirgeExtinction
Member
Or maybe he just sees her as a second daughter he could've had. Maybe like a sister to Sarah.
Well,.....I guess you can interpret it that way, if you view that line to be a result of Joel being able to reconnect with positive memories of his daughter, where he didn't before. But it doesn't come off that way to me at all. Before, when Joel compared her to his daughter, it was to emphasize differences. Now he's going "Oh man, you like hikes? So did my Sarah! You two are so alike.". Ellie's unenthusiastic response suggests heavily to me that Ellie is percieving herself to be Sara 2.0 in Joel's eyes. Maybe he's not, but I think that's definitely what Ellie feels.
In TLOU1, that part
where you are in the surgery room and you are supposed to kill the doctors I was like: WOW, really? I am really doing this? Then I used the arrows so that I wouldnt lose ammo at least. That was one of the most unexpected moments of my gaming life. I thought he would save her in a CG, not that I wouls save her during actual gameplay.
You have to be trolling.
Remember the opening of the game? When Joel's daughter died because he trusted people?
Ellie became his new daughter. He was not going to make the same mistake again. I wouldn't either.
Anyone who sees Joel as a villain just sees the world in such a fucking bizarre way, I swear to god.
alexbull_uk
Member
Yeah, wow. This thread has taken a strange turn over the last few pages.
He doesn't even have a guarantee that her death would accomplish anything, and he already lost his daughter in the prologue to the military who thought killing everyone would accomplish something.
Oldest Snake
Member
I think this is a little too advanced for the ending of TLOU, in terms of timeline. They didn't specify how much time has passed between the hospital and the end of the game but it can't of been too long. I think Ellie's attitude is more related to the 'failure' of what they set out to do, plus her doubts of Joel's version of events. Joel is shown as becoming more open to discussing Sara around Ellie as the game progresses (the University and bus stop conversations) and that conversation after the leave the car is just a continuation of that. Unless Joel had been talking about Sara non-stop since leaving the hospital I don't think she'd be concerning herself that Joel's gone fully bananas and started relating everything they do to his relation with Sara.
I mean, I definitely think that Joel regards Ellie as a daughter figure but I'd argue that was set in stone as of the ending to Winter. Joel's whole attitude towards Ellie changes after David, with him being a lot more fatherly and understanding (offering to teach Ellie to swim/play guitar, telling her he's not going to leave her with the Fireflies etc.)
dragonbane
Member
What a weird turn. I mean I also hate Joel, but not in that way lol
These guys clearly got the ending.
https://youtu.be/B9UbGBrn0ww?t=2480
https://youtu.be/B9UbGBrn0ww?t=2480
Insane Metal
Member
Holy shit at the turn this thread has had. Hahahahaha