I'll put the thread up in a few minutes. 52minutes until the reviews drop.
What? Aren't we just under a day away?
I'll put the thread up in a few minutes. 52minutes until the reviews drop.
What? Aren't we just under a day away?
What? Aren't we just under a day away?
What? Aren't we just under a day away?
Streamlining is actually good thing for me. One of the worst aspects of the classic Zeldas is that you can find yourself wandering around a dungeon for extended periods of time with nothing to do because you don't have a key or something or you missed a room. This happens a lot more in games like LA and LttP. MM and OoT kinda have this in spots but not as often.
It wasn't until WW came out that they really figured out the problem and spent more time making sure the player was always moving forward. You can get stuck in modern Zeldas but you're never lost and you know you're in the right room. You know what to focus on. That's how I feel anyway.
Some people don't like that kind of streamlining. It makes the dungeon feel kind of linear, but I like being able to get to the good stuff right away. Less downtime wandering around is a good thing for me. It's why I don't like the original NES game. Too esoteric lol.
As stated above I was talking about Switch hardware haha.
Zelda reviews are coming tomorrow.
Zelda:
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Whereas modern Zelda dungeons don't have this at all in the sense that you can treat every room as being self-contained that has no interplay with other rooms in a similar fashion. The best example of this concept is the dungeon in Oracle of Seasons where you had to physically move a ball around the entire dungeon to destroy a couple of pillars to make the final floor accessible for Link, and in the process you had to really think about how the dungeon layout works spatially.
I think there's a weird vibe going on right now, in that the spoiler free impressions threads are always about a few people playing the game, and a hundred others hanging on their every word. There's always this dynamic in these threads.
But in this case, the people playing it are playing the inferior version, but most importantly, are probably pirating it. Oh I'm sure some of them got the game early by mistake or something, but let's not kid ourselves. So I just think it adds a weird layer on top of the already weird impressions threads.
At this point I just want the reviews and the game out to end this torture.
Don't agree with this. I get what you're trying to say, but I can think of examples in both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword that clash with it. Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure the Sandship in Skyward had rooms that interacted with one another... Snowpeak I'm pretty sure, City in the Sky I'm 100% sure, etc. Also there's Sky Keep at the end of Skyward where the entire dungeon is literally like a rubix cube.
I really don't think the 3D Zelda dungeons are as lacking in intricate design as some are letting on. They're perhaps easier in general compared to some of the tougher dungeons in the older games, but I don't think they lack intricate, organic design.
The mini-metroidvania structure of the oldschool dungeons as well as the overworld itself in the 2D Zeldas is the opposite of being a problem, it's what gives the individual rooms/areas purpose in a much larger sense in regards to how everything is interconnected meaningfully.
I mean stuff like this how you need to analyze the map and in the 2D games you have to think three dimensionally in some cases to figure out that in order to access a certain part of a room that contains a chest you need to drop down from an above floor:
Whereas modern Zelda dungeons don't have this at all in the sense that you can treat every room as being self-contained that has no interplay with other rooms in a similar fashion. The best example of this concept is the dungeon in Oracle of Seasons where you had to physically move a ball around the entire dungeon to destroy a couple of pillars to make the final floor accessible for Link, and in the process you had to really think about how the dungeon layout works spatially.
That dungeon was brilliant in the way it felt like an elaborate puzzle in itself, in addition to the individual room puzzles you had to solve as well. This kind of layered design where everything just clicks on so many different levels is the reason why Nintendo is on a whole other level of genius compared to other devs. In OoT (a 3D example) you had stuff like this where you could only access the upper parts of the central room in Dodongo's Cavern by finding a different route leading to the same room, and the interplay between the upper and lower parts, which are seemingly not connected to one another, came at the form of throwing bombs into the eyes which where located below, but you had to be on the upper floor to do it, again making use of verticality in clever ways.
Take this dimension of the dungeons away and what you have left is a series of individual high quality rooms, but with no meaningful interplay. As such, from my perspective you might as well chop them up as they did with the shrines because there is no point in having dungeons if the various rooms don't come together and interact in mind blowing ways as they did in the past.
not to specifically comment on the game in it's current state as i haven't seen it, but the dec 2016 footage nintendo showed had heavy frame drops.Same here. All this talk about framerate drops for instance when all the footage since E3 has been perfectly fine for me. I just want to see it for myself on my TV and end this.
So what's the latest on Wii U version? Good? Bad?
From the footage I've seen the framerate drops are the same severity as on Switch but way way more frequent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQElPnJ5w20
The mini-metroidvania structure of the oldschool dungeons as well as the overworld itself in the 2D Zeldas is the opposite of being a problem, it's what gives the individual rooms/areas purpose in a much larger sense in regards to how everything is interconnected meaningfully.
I mean stuff like this how you need to analyze the map and in the 2D games you have to think three dimensionally in some cases to figure out that in order to access a certain part of a room that contains a chest you need to drop down from an above floor:
Whereas modern Zelda dungeons don't have this at all in the sense that you can treat every room as being self-contained that has no interplay with other rooms in a similar fashion. The best example of this concept is the dungeon in Oracle of Seasons where you had to physically move a ball around the entire dungeon to destroy a couple of pillars to make the final floor accessible for Link, and in the process you had to really think about how the dungeon layout works spatially.
That dungeon was brilliant in the way it felt like an elaborate puzzle in itself, in addition to the individual room puzzles you had to solve as well. This kind of layered design where everything just clicks on so many different levels is the reason why Nintendo is on a whole other level of genius compared to other devs. In OoT (a 3D example) you had stuff like this where you could only access the upper parts of the central room in Dodongo's Cavern by finding a different route leading to the same room, and the interplay between the upper and lower parts, which are seemingly not connected to one another, came at the form of throwing bombs into the eyes which where located below, but you had to be on the upper floor to do it, again making use of verticality in clever ways.
Take this dimension of the dungeons away and what you have left is a series of individual high quality rooms, but with no meaningful interplay. As such, from my perspective you might as well chop them up as they did with the shrines because there is no point in having dungeons if the various rooms don't come together and interact in mind blowing ways as they did in the past.
WOW. What a surprise. I opened my mail box and found the game. Thanks Amazon goodbye gaf :")
So what's the latest on Wii U version? Good? Bad?
not to specifically comment on the game in it's current state as i haven't seen it, but the dec 2016 footage nintendo showed had heavy frame drops.
it might be "fine for you" but they ARE (or were?) there.
From the footage I've seen the framerate drops are the same severity as on Switch but way way more frequent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQElPnJ5w20
I... Just played seasons...
That wasn't a puzzle. You didn't have to move one of the magnetic balls across the whole dungeon, you couldn't in fact. You're remembering that dungeon incorrectly. Ages dungeon design was way better regardless.
I'm not denying them, just that they don't bother me. I couldn't care less about a slight stutter here and here. Some people in the impressions thread were talking about 5-15fps which is just false.
Awesome post.The mini-metroidvania structure of the oldschool dungeons as well as the overworld itself in the 2D Zeldas is the opposite of being a problem, it's what gives the individual rooms/areas purpose in a much larger sense in regards to how everything is interconnected meaningfully.
I mean stuff like this how you need to analyze the map and in the 2D games you have to think three dimensionally in some cases to figure out that in order to access a certain part of a room that contains a chest you need to drop down from an above floor:
Whereas modern Zelda dungeons don't have this at all in the sense that you can treat every room as being self-contained that has no interplay with other rooms in a similar fashion. The best example of this concept is the dungeon in Oracle of Seasons where you had to physically move a ball around the entire dungeon to destroy a couple of pillars to make the final floor accessible for Link, and in the process you had to really think about how the dungeon layout works spatially.
That dungeon was brilliant in the way it felt like an elaborate puzzle in itself, in addition to the individual room puzzles you had to solve as well. This kind of layered design where everything just clicks on so many different levels is the reason why Nintendo is on a whole other level of genius compared to other devs. In OoT (a 3D example) you had stuff like this where you could only access the upper parts of the central room in Dodongo's Cavern by finding a different route leading to the same room, and the interplay between the upper and lower parts, which are seemingly not connected to one another, came at the form of throwing bombs into the eyes which where located below, but you had to be on the upper floor to do it, again making use of verticality in clever ways.
Take this dimension of the dungeons away and what you have left is a series of individual high quality rooms, but with no meaningful interplay. As such, from my perspective you might as well chop them up as they did with the shrines because there is no point in having dungeons if the various rooms don't come together and interact in mind blowing ways as they did in the past.
I... Just played seasons...
That wasn't a puzzle. You didn't have to move one of the magnetic balls across the whole dungeon, you couldn't in fact. You're remembering that dungeon incorrectly. Ages dungeon design was way better regardless.
Anyone else planning to download the game day 1? I am, want an all digital library. But a little worried that this eshop nonsense might set me back a few hours or days trying to get the game...
Right, you moved the ball around in different parts of a single room but Link himself had to take a different route through the dungeon to complete the puzzle. You still had to realize that placing the ball on the other side of a gap and physically leaving the room is part of how you solve the puzzle. It's not immediately obvious and I remember that dungeon blew my mind ~15 years ago.
OoT had a more realized version of this multi-room puzzle type when you carried Ruto around in Jabu Jabu's Belly, point being that the dungeon layout itself is like a puzzle which is no longer the case in Zelda games I feel like.
Yeah Jabu Jabu's Belly is probably the weakest dungeon in OoT.
Yeah Jabu Jabu's Belly is probably the weakest dungeon in OoT.
Yeah Jabu Jabu's Belly is probably the weakest dungeon in OoT.
Yeah Jabu Jabu's Belly is probably the weakest dungeon in OoT.
Yep. Jabu-Jabu's Belly is the only bad dungeon in OoT IMO.
The first time I found out I had to jump to break the spider web in the Great Deku Tree, I was like "Woah." /Keanu Reevesidk, I find all the kid Link dungeons to be a snoozefest. Game only really picks up once you hit Forest Temple. But when you do, it's top-tier Zelda dungeon design through the rest of the game.
idk, I find all the kid Link dungeons to be a snoozefest. Game only really picks up once you hit Forest Temple. But when you do, it's top-tier Zelda dungeon design through the rest of the game.
Lies. The use of the boomerang is fantastic. It is also a more interesting dungeon style thematically than the previous ones and introduced the multi-room puzzle style of some later dungeons in more detail. It looked fantastic in the 3DS version.While the Deku tree is certainly basic, I'm willing to give it a pass because it teaches you some very important things (like the importance of verticality) especially when you consider that it's the first 3D Zelda dungeon. Dodongo's Cavern helps reinforce the importance of verticality with it's central room and has some neat timing challenges with the bombs. Jabu-Jabu's Belly has nothing going for it.
Still no word on a pre-load for digital?
That's cool Nintendo
While the Deku tree is certainly basic, I'm willing to give it a pass because it teaches you some very important things (like the importance of verticality) especially when you consider that it's the first 3D Zelda dungeon. Dodongo's Cavern helps reinforce the importance of verticality with it's central room and has some neat timing challenges with the bombs. Jabu-Jabu's Belly has nothing going for it.
You just defined my experience with Wind Waker.Jabu Jabu's Belly is the worst dungeon in the Zelda series.
It's ugly, every room looks the same with no visual distinction, Princess Ruto is the worst & most cubersome partner mechanic in the series, no interesting puzzles and the music sucks. It makes OoT single-handedly a game that's very hard to pick up and play because this shit is happening early in the game.
Jabu Jabu's Belly is the worst dungeon in the Zelda series.
It's ugly, every room looks the same with no visual distinction, Princess Ruto is the worst & most cubersome partner mechanic in the series, no interesting puzzles and the music sucks. It makes OoT single-handedly a game that's very hard to pick up and play because this shit is happening early in the game.
I found getting Makaar around in the Wind Temple more cumbersome than Ruto. Ruto was basically a stationary object. You have to actively control Makaar at times. It's slow as shit, and he basically only exists to set up hook shot points a lot of the time so it feels like the dungeon would function without him.
Granted, Makaar is out of commission for the first half.