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The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - Preview Thread
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What? Aren't we just under a day away?
Cucurbitacée
Member
It'll be the 2nd in Japan then.
He's talking about the reviews of the Switch, not Breath of the Wild
As stated above I was talking about Switch hardware haha.
Zelda reviews are coming tomorrow.
Zelda:
The mini-metroidvania structure of the oldschool dungeons as well as the overworld itself in the 2D Zeldas is the opposite of being a problem, it's what gives the individual rooms/areas purpose in a much larger sense in regards to how everything is interconnected meaningfully.
I mean stuff like this how you need to analyze the map and in the 2D games you have to think three dimensionally in some cases to figure out that in order to access a certain part of a room that contains a chest you need to drop down from an above floor:
Whereas modern Zelda dungeons don't have this at all in the sense that you can treat every room as being self-contained that has no interplay with other rooms in a similar fashion. The best example of this concept is the dungeon in Oracle of Seasons where you had to physically move a ball around the entire dungeon to destroy a couple of pillars to make the final floor accessible for Link, and in the process you had to really think about how the dungeon layout works spatially.
That dungeon was brilliant in the way it felt like an elaborate puzzle in itself, in addition to the individual room puzzles you had to solve as well. This kind of layered design where everything just clicks on so many different levels is the reason why Nintendo is on a whole other level of genius compared to other devs. In OoT (a 3D example) you had stuff like this where you could only access the upper parts of the central room in Dodongo's Cavern by finding a different route leading to the same room, and the interplay between the upper and lower parts, which are seemingly not connected to one another, came at the form of throwing bombs into the eyes which where located below, but you had to be on the upper floor to do it, again making use of verticality in clever ways.
Take this dimension of the dungeons away and what you have left is a series of individual high quality rooms, but with no meaningful interplay. As such, from my perspective you might as well chop them up as they did with the shrines because there is no point in having dungeons if the various rooms don't come together and interact in mind blowing ways as they did in the past.
As stated above I was talking about Switch hardware haha.
Zelda reviews are coming tomorrow.
Zelda:
Lol derp. Getting too antsy...
brandonh83
Banned
Don't agree with this. I get what you're trying to say, but I can think of examples in both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword that clash with it. Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure the Sandship in Skyward had rooms that interacted with one another... Snowpeak I'm pretty sure, City in the Sky I'm 100% sure, etc. Also there's Sky Keep at the end of Skyward where the entire dungeon is literally like a rubix cube.
I really don't think the 3D Zelda dungeons are as lacking in intricate design as some are letting on. They're perhaps easier in general compared to some of the tougher dungeons in the older games, but I don't think they lack intricate, organic design.
Same here. All this talk about framerate drops for instance when all the footage since E3 has been perfectly fine for me. I just want to see it for myself on my TV and end this.
I think you are confusing posters here because I only said that about Skyward Sword and Between Worlds, I think Twilight Princess is fine.
Yeah the Sky Keep concept was brilliant, but the execution was severely lacking because of how simple and straight forward the solution was. Also that one moment you had to use the bow cleverly in sandship was spoiled for me by Fi. I thought "okay, that was awesome" but sadly I didn't get a chance to make the realization myself so it kind of defeats the purpose of having them there. I don't know, it feels like Nintendo is just too afraid of people getting stuck it seems.
Magicpaint
Member
Oh man, this post. Very much this post.
I really couldn't have explained this any better. 100% agreed. This is what I was trying (and failing) to convey in my previous post.
Edit: That dungeon in Seasons was such a masterclass of design.
Garrett Hawke
Member
not to specifically comment on the game in it's current state as i haven't seen it, but the dec 2016 footage nintendo showed had heavy frame drops.
it might be "fine for you" but they ARE (or were?
) there.GhostTrick
Banned
WOW. What a surprise. I opened my mail box and found the game. Thanks Amazon goodbye gaf :")
Evil's Bane
Member
I feel like OOT's dungeons had several instances of taking advantage of the 3rd dimension and interplay between rooms, same with MM. There definitely feels like this decreases in other 3D games though imo. Doesn't go away completely, but it's clearly not the same.
From the footage I've seen the framerate drops are the same severity as on Switch but way way more frequent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQElPnJ5w20
Good thing you edited your wording because the truth is that you can play for a long time without any noticeable drops. Drops happen especially in the starting area if there is a lot of grass in parallel to ther effects, when it's rainy, when you use one of the tablet functions and in villages where there is a lot going on.
99% of the time, the game is in a perfectly playable state.
LinkSlayer64
Member
I... Just played seasons...
That wasn't a puzzle. You didn't have to move one of the magnetic balls across the whole dungeon, you couldn't in fact. You're remembering that dungeon incorrectly. Ages dungeon design was way better regardless.
Audioboxer
Member
Woohoo!
Framerate dips seem quite bad on the Wii U at times. Switch is better in this regard, but still not perfect. Just seems like the engine used for this game has a hell of a time on hardware.
PC emulation will probably end up running the best lol.
not to specifically comment on the game in it's current state as i haven't seen it, but the dec 2016 footage nintendo showed had heavy frame drops.
it might be "fine for you" but they ARE (or were?
I'm not denying them, just that they don't bother me. I couldn't care less about a slight stutter here and here. Some people in the impressions thread were talking about 5-15fps which is just false.
Going by this and the stream I watched yesterday, I don't like how often the framerate dips during combat, when I'd say it's most important for the game to run well.
I'm sure it's playable at all times, I guess. Bummer, as I am pretty sensitive to framerate fluctuations, but I'm sure I'll manage.
e: or at least get used to it lol
Audioboxer
Member
OMG spoilers about a certain animal
The reason I am excited is it seems to be tied to an amiibo I actually have! Although, I'm going to assume it's obtainable without the amiibo somehow. I know there is a spoiler topic for BotW, but I'm worried it has unmarked spoilers you cannot help seeing when you simply open the topic.
Totally doing the above day 1. Fuck waiting and/or grinding out whatever is needed to do it without the amiibo
Gutted I don't have the wolf amiibo I put a halt to buying them after realising one day I had blown a ton of money on useless plastic junk ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pgoviPsRQ0 everyone's favourite horse!
The reason I am excited is it seems to be tied to an amiibo I actually have! Although, I'm going to assume it's obtainable without the amiibo somehow. I know there is a spoiler topic for BotW, but I'm worried it has unmarked spoilers you cannot help seeing when you simply open the topic.
Totally doing the above day 1. Fuck waiting and/or grinding out whatever is needed to do it without the amiibo
Gutted I don't have the wolf amiibo
I put a halt to buying them after realising one day I had blown a ton of money on useless plastic junk ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)I think Eagle's Tower in LA is a better example of what he's trying to say.
Discomurf
Member
agree - in most areas it looks just fine to me. Its always hard to tell from a captured YouTube clip but I think it will be OK-- its certainly not '"got to spend an extra $300 bad" in my opinion
Wonder if the WiiU version will get a patch update. I suppose its possible, has Nintendo ever fixed frame rate issues before on a Wii U game?
Awesome post.
Skyward Sowrd also had Ancient Cistern where you had to play with the water level, though the execution was very straightforward when compared to other Zelda Dungeons. Twilight Princess however was great in this reward, specially the Water Temple, where the rotating staircase in the center room served first as a way to access different parts of the dungeon and later as a way to bring water to different places and unlock new paths. That was genius.
Those type of dungeons are my favorite, where every puzzle is part of a bigger one, hope BotW has some dungeons like this.
Right, you moved the ball around in different parts of a single room but Link himself had to take a different route through the dungeon to complete the puzzle. You still had to realize that placing the ball on the other side of a gap and physically leaving the room is part of how you solve the puzzle. It's not immediately obvious and I remember that dungeon blew my mind ~15 years ago.
OoT had a more realized version of this multi-room puzzle type when you carried Ruto around in Jabu Jabu's Belly, point being that the dungeon layout itself is like a puzzle which is no longer the case in Zelda games I feel like.
YAAAAAAAAAAAAY I didn't miss the dungeon talk!
Entirely that is.
Ansatz's post that is already heavily quoted is a very good reason why I really really don't like WW's dungeons and why MM's take on dungeon design is so damn good (which is really just take the best parts of OoT's structure on steroid).
Entirely that is.
Ansatz's post that is already heavily quoted is a very good reason why I really really don't like WW's dungeons and why MM's take on dungeon design is so damn good (which is really just take the best parts of OoT's structure on steroid).
Audioboxer
Member
Nintendo digital shop prices... :/
Although they are the one company that seems to be immune to their physical copies tanking in price, even in the UK. Dat Nintendo tax.
LinkSlayer64
Member
I feel like your nostalgia is making that puzzle way greater than it was.
Ruto was never like what you described, you never needed to throw her in a room somewhere then come back to get her from a different route.
The moving the rooms puzzle in SS was a way better puzzle, it required critical thought and planning.
Yep. Jabu-Jabu's Belly is the only bad dungeon in OoT IMO.
That's a cool dungeon. If that's the weakest point.... WHEW what a game.
DarkChronic
Member
That was always my least favorite part when replaying that game.
mrpallyguy
Member
I got lost in sandship at the part where you peek outside with your bow. Fi never told me about that. Had to look it up haha.
LinkSlayer64
Member
Besides Forest Temple, it's actually my favorite. The atmosphere and art design are fantastic. I feel the boomerang got extensive and well done use, for being the last item you get as a child before you never use it again.
plus tsunedere fish lmao
idk, I find all the kid Link dungeons to be a snoozefest. Game only really picks up once you hit Forest Temple. But when you do, it's top-tier Zelda dungeon design through the rest of the game.
The first time I found out I had to jump to break the spider web in the Great Deku Tree, I was like "Woah." /Keanu Reeves
Fantastic first dungeon. Short and clever.
While the Deku tree is certainly basic, I'm willing to give it a pass because it teaches you some very important things (like the importance of verticality) especially when you consider that it's the first 3D Zelda dungeon. Dodongo's Cavern helps reinforce the importance of verticality with it's central room and has some neat timing challenges with the bombs. Jabu-Jabu's Belly has nothing going for it.
Magicpaint
Member
The ball in Season's isn't dragged through the entire dungeon yes, but getting it from its point A to B to C to D to its final destination requires a solid knowledge of the dungeon's layout and how to manipulate the ball successfully. It's that element of design that isn't really prevalent in modern Zelda dungeons.
The Ruto example is a bit rudimentary yes, but Majora's Mask is basically brimming with stuff like this. They went all out in the dungeons in that game, possibly, because of how few they were.
The enemies were super annoying, and the mini-boss, ugh, but the boss itself was really cool. It's probably my favourite of the kid Link dungeons.
The Ruto example is a bit rudimentary yes, but Majora's Mask is basically brimming with stuff like this. They went all out in the dungeons in that game, possibly, because of how few they were.
Lies. The use of the boomerang is fantastic. It is also a more interesting dungeon style thematically than the previous ones and introduced the multi-room puzzle style of some later dungeons in more detail. It looked fantastic in the 3DS version.
The enemies were super annoying, and the mini-boss, ugh, but the boss itself was really cool. It's probably my favourite of the kid Link dungeons.
My guess is tomorrow... Nintendo updates store on thursdays.
Jabu Jabu's Belly is the worst dungeon in the Zelda series.
It's ugly, every room looks the same with no visual distinction, Princess Ruto is the worst & most cubersome partner mechanic in the series, no interesting puzzles and the music sucks. It makes OoT single-handedly a game that's very hard to pick up and play because this shit is happening early in the game.
It's ugly, every room looks the same with no visual distinction, Princess Ruto is the worst & most cubersome partner mechanic in the series, no interesting puzzles and the music sucks. It makes OoT single-handedly a game that's very hard to pick up and play because this shit is happening early in the game.
I think the best dungeons in OoT were actually the least replayable dungeons.
The 1rst one where you had to jump was really clever but boring on replay.
The Dodongo cavern with the eyes was a fantastic puzzle BECAUSE you had to think outside of the usual boxes of your character never being able to interact directly with another "room".
That 'aha' moment were you get what they mean with the eyes of the dragon or whatever is one stellar moment.
Jabu Jabu's belly is more pedestrian in that way BUT on replay it's a vastly better experience as it has the best miniboss for child Link and your arsenal is certainly more versatile by the time you're there compared to the other 2.
Jabu Jabu is also God tier in Master quest for reason best left to discovery.
I feel like the best way to enjoy a dungeon is to finish it normally and then come back to it on a 3 hearts run.
It feels like you know the dungeon but the added tension of not having much means you have to be extremely careful as most things would kill you.
That's also when you realize that WW is even worse than previously thought because even that can't make WW dungeon interesting.
You just defined my experience with Wind Waker.
The worst part? The OST of wind waker is absolutely fantastic but the music of the game still sucks baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalls.
Same issue with Skyward Sword, what's the point of that fantastic score if you're mostly listening to shit stuffs most of the time?
Inferno313
Banned
Yep. My fiancé, who plays a lot of games like The Sims and Animal Crossing, has been playing OOT 3D, and had been having a good time up until that dungeon. The Ruto mechanic is one of the most outdated things in the game, and drove her crazy, almost causing her to bounce off the game.
Evil's Bane
Member
I found getting Makaar around in the Wind Temple more cumbersome than Ruto. Ruto was basically a stationary object. You have to actively control Makaar at times. It's slow as shit, and he basically only exists to set up hook shot points a lot of the time so it feels like the dungeon would function without him.
Granted, Makaar is out of commission for the first half.
Granted, Makaar is out of commission for the first half.
Forgot about that shit, that made going back into dungeons shittier because now you're alone and you can't access some rooms anymore because you don't have that shitty friend!
