Rime Creative Director: "Reading Neogaf made me cry for two days"

I don't really think gaf is much different from anything else you find on the internet or, you know, the real world. Every thread has some nice people, some annoying fanboys, some people who care more about how the characters are dressed than gameplay, some others who just love to shit on things everyone else like.

That's not a problem. The problem was Rime having a troubled development and Sony deciding to step away from them. Probably those rumors were just speculations, but we didn't know. What we know is that the game is now real because they decided to show it after more than 3 years.

You might think that telling the creative director to "man up" is unfair, but I disagree. It's about taking your own responsibility. Did gaf made a CG trailer 4 years ago to show the game and then disappeared or was it Tequila Gameworks? Did they come out and explain the Sony move right away or did we have to wait several months to know that they simply wanted to go multiplatform and reacquire the rights to their own game? (which is not a great move anyways. They basically wasted money where they could have simply followed through with the exclusivity deal)
I am sorry for the developer, I understand how though it is to get this kind of hate, but there's nothing wrong with gaf. Either stop reading it or try avoiding disappearing for so long.

Either you are active on the internet, showing your game's progresses on a weekly/monthly basis, or you just ignore the internet all at once.

There's a lot of reasons to hate blame/gaf (like the excessively aggressive behavior of some people when it comes to certain topics) but this is not one of them.
 
But those old posts were all assumptions why in the world would he let baseless assumptions and opinions bother him so much.I know GAF can be hostile at times but this guy paints GAF as a bully factory that should be avoided at all costs.We have nice people and assholes like everywhere else from my exp chill nice people are the majority here.


Did 343 Industries (MCC) or Hello Games (NMS) directors tell the media that GAF made them cry with meanie words?
 
Qblivion said:
Telling someone to have thicker skin seems real fucking vile to me. You are basically telling them to stop experiencing emotions the way that they do. Imagine if I shat on your desk and called you a baby for finding it gross.
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It's a lot easier to ignore GAF posts than it is to ignore a pile of shit on your desk.

He actively sought out these posts/threads.
 
I thought Rime was pretty popular here. I didn't really follow Gaf threads about the game much after the reveal though. I'm still hyped for it.
 
Isn't it a given in most creative circles that you're better off not reading reviews or getting into it with people on the internet over their analysis of your work?

That's what I've always heard said by writers, actors, musicians, etc. I don't see why it'd be different for game developers.

If you go to a place where people aren't having a conversation with *you*, and are just airing their views 100% uncensored (as we are wont to do with the veil of anonymity), you're bound to see people say some shit you don't want to hear. Even the greatest artists are going to find places online that think their work is the worst garbage wrought by mankind.

I'm not saying GAF can't be overly harsh, as it certainly can. Most places online share similar levels of hyperbolic statements calling things the worst ever or hot garbage when that's clearly not the case.

Either way, none of that is what happened with Rime unless I missed something. The furor over their potential cancellation was almost entirely people just trying to understand what was happening and being angry about perceived deception. I'm still not sure I know what actually went down there, but I guess it's a real game now, and that's cool.

Dude should maybe just lay off the online forums.
 
TalonJH said:
I thought Rime was pretty popular here. I didn't really follow Gaf threads about the game much after the reveal though. I'm still hyped for it.
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Rime is a mix bag like everything on GAF.

I am excited about the game and I was pissy about the Switch price but I am still happy it is multiplatform.
 
-Mutsukki- said:
I'd like to know what makes you think that people not being able to take shit well online has anything to do with mental diseases. Burden of proof lies with you. Being more sensitive is a mental ilness now? Honestly you're just spewing bullshit in my opinion..
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It's not a mental illness per se, but it could be a symptom of depression or anxiety. There's a good read about it here. You don't need to toughen up because you're sensitive, but perhaps being sensitive is a sign you're depressed or could be depressed in the future. Not everyone that is sensitive is depressed, but some could be and it's misinformation to say that if you lived in a less toxic environment you'd be peachy.

I dealt with depression like a lot of us here I imagine, but the one thing that I learned about it is to always seek help if you're getting too down by things. It's the thing that saved me.

DVCY201 said:
Are you a Doctor suggesting that they need help with mental illness or disorders? Which disorders specifically? Why do you have such a hard time believing that a functioning person could be disheartened when reading comments such as 'this game is shit', or 'the developers are fucking scamming us', etc.?

If a friend comes to you, says I'm really hurt by what so and so said to me, do you just tell them to 'man up'? Ugh, it's exactly those reasons why people downplay mental illness
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I never said people need to "man up" or if I said anything that sounded like it I'm legit sorry because it was never my intention. But here's another piece describing sensitive people and yes they do tend to battle depression and anxiety more than other people because that's logical. If you're dealing with this stuff and it gets too heavy, you need help. A better world alone won't be enough, sure it would help a lot but sadly we're not there.

I'm not defending people being assholes as "it happens" or saying people who suffer from it need to toughen up. I'm advocating people seeking help if they get too down over stuff like that because it could lead to some serious shit. How am I downplaying anything?

Saucycarpdog said:
Bullshit. You don't treat depression like a problem when you put air quotes around true issues and conflate it with PTSD, which is a whole different mental issue.
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I putted air quotes because the term "true issue" was brought up and I was quoting it. And people get PTSD over cyberbullying.
 
GAF is super tame on commentary. The intense moderation means it's hard to be outright malicious without someone else catching on and calling you out on it.

On other websites, the bullshit is mostly unconstrained. Where a post starts out as criticism but quickly turns into an all out attack on a person's existence.

I rather read GAF anytime and barely get offended, versus going on another forum where the only sentence someone can type is "well you're a cuck (((globalist))) shill. LOL, retard."
 
No Gaf doesn't hate for passion. They are bored people with nothing better to do. They hate for enjoyment to make people feel their miserable sorrows. If anyone thinks outside the box, they throw stones.
 
I'm not a creator myself, but I imagine it must be hard to work on something for years only to receive that kind of reception. No one should have to grow a thicker skin. That said people who are getting that kind of vitriol and hate should realize that the Internet is occupied by many, many people. Many of whom are not worth losing sleep over. It does hurt, but the people who do that kind of thing are scum. They rarely think about the effect of their actions or who may be reading what it is that they spew forth.

Sturgeon's Law was originally born from science fiction, but later expanded to apply to everything. I think if one applies that law to the websites they visit, the content that is there, and the posts and comments within, it'll be less a disappointing and painful experience. I say that because there is no changing human nature. This is how human interaction has always been and will always be.
 
Erevador said:
This is a massive problem on the entire internet right now, it's deranging our public discourse.

People immediately go for the most incendiary stance because it will get them the most attention and response. They get a hit from every bit of engagement they get. They're trying to make a comment that "kills."

It is exhausting. There is no sense of proportion, just the desire to gain some kind of fleeting, meaningless "prestige" through online attention.

And the quickest way for someone with no platform or power to get attention is to attack someone or something that people know well. The reflected glory can bounce onto the attacker and make them feel empowered as they dig the knife in.

This mindset is wrecking the internet. It is in an advantaged stage on places like Twitter, but GAF isn't free of it either.
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I pretty much agree with this post. It's probably how politics has turned out the way it has. The past election was the most extreme left and right that I'd seen, and there wasn't much room for a stance near the middle.

As for Neogaf, i'd say most posters are pretty reasonable, but there are also a lot of armchair analysts that just don't know what they are talking about and also a lot of people who are there to incite "heated" debate just to ruffle feathers. Reaction Gifs also lead to other excessive reaction posts

In the past the discussion was generally a two way street say between a games magazine and yourself but now with everything being so 'social' forums, twitter, facebook, its more about who can be the loudest that gets the most attention.

Sometimes just hanging out in the community threads like the Yakuza or Vita communities shows the true good qualities of GAF, where there's lots of enthusiast talk and none of the vitriol.
 
i read the title and immediately did my "paid in full" cam'ron impression:

"he be aight. he tough right?!"

but seriously, reading allegations and rumors can be hurtful, especially if not true.
 
People can be crazy shitty to others on here it's sad af. Can't even make a post without someone foaming at the mouth over an opinion. Welp, back to lurk status 😑
 
There seems to be two main narratives here:

1) If you put yourself out there, grow thicker skin.

2) People should have more empathy.

Each of these has positives and negatives. Harsh criticism can help improve a project. More acceptance of the missteps a project can take can encourage a developer to forge on.

There's not a one-size-fits-all solution. At the end of the day, it's tough as fuck out there for creative types. Right or wrong, that's just how it is, and I don't see that changing anytime soon, if ever.

Would I like it to? Yeah. I am a fan of positive reinforcement as opposed to negative, but that's not how things work, and maybe that's a good thing. I am not really smart enough to make a compelling argument here.

That said, even if I think the method of disclosure for this was not the best (practically,) I respect the shit out of someone laying it all out there, just because it's real and messy and human.
 
Lionel Richie said:
I putted air quotes because the term "true issue" was brought up and I was quoting it. And people get PTSD over cyberbullying.
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You have talking about depression this whole time so why did you conflate the it with PTSD?

Lionel Richie said:
but perhaps being sensitive is a sign you're depressed or could be depressed in the future. Not everyone that is sensitive is depressed, but some could be and it's misinformation to say that if you lived in a less toxic environment you'd be peachy.

I dealt with depression like a lot of us here I imagine, but the one thing that I learned about it is to always seek help if you're getting too down by things. It's the thing that saved me.

and yes they do tend to battle depression and anxiety more than other people because that's logical. If you're dealing with this stuff and it gets too heavy, you need help. A better world alone won't be enough, sure it would help a lot but sadly we're not there.
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I'm pretty sure anyone on any level of game development gets their fucking ass kicked by reading GAF.

I do. And yet I remain, because GAF.
 
When I was a lurker about 5 years ago, Gaf wasn't this bad, but now It's crumbling into /v/ territory with how they act about the gaming community.
 
Should I admit NeoGAF criticism made a big impact on me and played a role in me deciding to leave games?

In fairness, it also provided the solution, getting out if I couldn't handle the criticism.
 
Saucycarpdog said:
You have talking about depression this whole time so why did you conflate the it with PTSD?
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Because it's also an issue that could happen if you don't seek treatment or if you don't seek therapy. People took issue when I talking about therapy and it saddens me there's still this weird taboo in our society. Some people say you don't need it because you should toughen up, while others are basically saying that you wouldn't need it if people were less toxic on the internet. The first is false because it's nonsense and the second is false because it's not applicable. We haven't been able to change the world we live in thus far, so while we're still having cyberbullying or sensitive people being down over harsh words, seeking help would, you know, help them.

Sorry if I sounded like I'm downplaying stuff and I would especially never tell people to man up. A few years back I nearly killed myself, and I remember how hurtful it was to read some things and to just live my life in general. I got help and here I'm advocating that more people do get help if they feel like they need. No need to suffer alone.
 
I've never thought anything bad about the community as a whole here.

Any room full of people, 25% of them are going to be crazy/off/have a bad day. The Internet is just that magnified.
 
After being here for a few years (and a lurker for much longer), I've learned by thread title which ones to avoid, lest I get incensed or depressed.

OT: For the most part, devs should avoid Gaf until their game's out, if only to not let their vision be polluted.
 
Having only read the first couple of sites of this thread I still want to say something. I personally thing Neogaf is definitely one of the nicer videogame boards out there. Even when someone posts something rather mean, those posts are still pretty tame. If you get emotional reading those posts or are a sensitive person than you have to think twice about reading anything regarding your project. What will happen when the game releases and it gets bad reviews? I don't even want to think about that.
 
Lol i used to frequent N4G before I stumbled upon NeoGaf and if u mentioned Gaf at all, you would be roasted alive.

Every other internet comment section despises Gaf with a passion but developers know this place is the truth so we'll forever stay relevant
 
I applaud EvilLore and Besada's comments.

I've been thinking about it and I think that while GAF is an awesome site where people can talk about games and sell things without worrying too much about trolls and scammers, it's also a place that brings out lots of unneeded hatred at times.

Some posters act like certain developers are gods and if they get replaced or leave a game, then the game and/or the new developer are treated like trash with people finding any single way to discredit them. Be it either a change in character from a Star to a Moon, or just flat out dismissing the game as a failure because of the developer's past experiences. Other times some assume to be 100% correct and anyone else who disagrees otherwise are wrong with no hope of redemption.

People have different opinions. It's shocking but it's true. Not everyone has the hard on the you have for a certain game and not everyone reviles a game so much like you do because it killed your dog and burned your house down. Some people like Halo: MCC and FFXV and some don't like UC4 and GTA.

I believe it's what makes us as humans so special. We have the ability to voice our thoughts and maybe even come to an agreement with people on certain things. That helps us to stay happy and tolerant.

It hasn't been the case recently. And because of that it has been poring into this site as well. Sure the mods make sure that things are kept in order, but some posters will try their best in coming up short of attacking other posters for thinking differently. It's upsetting. It puts me in a bad mood and I decide not to go into that thread anymore. Is that being cowardly? Maybe. I'm not the best poster. I'm pretty sure many of you barely know who I am. I haven't done anything big yet or have the eloquence to speak like others do. But my opinion still counts. So does other posters from mods like EvilLore and Besada all the way to Juniors who get spat at for being a Junior. News flash, you were one too once.

I love GAF. I'm so glad to be a member here. It's been a huge dream for me to be a part of this group. But I do agree that we completely overreact.

Tell me that FFXV and Majora's Mask sucks. I flip out haha!
CrimsonSquall said:
Lol i used to frequent N4G before I stumbled upon NeoGaf and if u mentioned Gaf at all, you would be roasted alive.
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Whoa I did the same thing! Spooky. I rarely go to N4G anymore since GAF has all the scoop before hand.
 
I do agree that often times the dogpiling and shitposting get out of hand to the extreme.
If you don't like something there are civil ways of conveying that without being a garbage person about it.

That said, when you willingly put your creative efforts on stage for view of others, you, as a creator have to prepare yourself mentally for reasonable and unreasonable criticism.

Not necessarily "grow thicker skin," but know yourself.
If you know you're more sensitive to critique, perhaps don't throw yourself into a forum known to sometimes be overly critical and instead go for a better route of seeking constructive criticism from peers and colleagues.

Both sides (Gaf and Devs) could stand to go about all of this in a better way. Just my 2 cents.
 
I also agree about gaf in general, it's a forum that I believe you can truly discuss games and have a good time doing it..

Like I said previously, go look at dayonepatch if you want to see a cesspool that will debate anything for the sake of debate.. You could say your grandmother died and they'd argue she didn't
 
So I'm a dev, and I can tell you that a lot of devs, esp at big AAA studios read GAF.

Now I have to stress that what I say here is entirely my opinion and shouldn't reflect at all what the industry at large feels nor the company I work at. I just thought I'd share my 2 cents.

Personally, I find GAF to be at times one of the most reasonable gaming communities on the internet, but at other times pretty irrational. This is really just a biproduct of the passion of all the enthusiasts on this forum.

I will say that reading GAF as a developer is often an unhealthy thing. It's kinda like an emotional rollercoaster - after release you're always looking to hear about what fans think of your game, sometimes you'll find a comment that resonates with you (even criticisms of the game! I find myself often nodding in agreement), but then other times there are those terribly insensitive comments that get you questioning your line of work. I consider myself lucky to work on a game that's actually really highly regarded, esp amongst the GAF community. But even so, it's tough to bear sometimes.

Sometimes honestly I feel like that mom who bends over backwards to provide for their kid. In return, the kid yells and cries and doesn't appreciate anything you do for them, only asking for the next toy on their list, ignorant of toys you bought for them last month, last week, yesterday. I don't mean that as a slight to the community, and really it's just those few who maybe want to offer feedback but dont know or wish to form it in a constructive way. Don't get me wrong, I'm a GAF member as well, I'm a gamer, I see things in games and I wonder why they did what they did. Being on the other side though, I know there are often good reasons for why things are the way they are, or aren't. At the end of the day, we try our absolute best to deliver what we can without killing ourselves (and sometimes we do. Can't tell you how many people in this industry have health problems, relationship issues, etc), and people try to pin it on companies working their employees too hard, but often times we just want to deliver the best thing we can and have a hard time settling for less even if sometimes we absolutely have to.

What I'm asking for, and thankfully what's becoming "a thing" slowly, is empathy for developers. Understanding. It's hard to have perspective on game development when you're not in the thick of it. Part of it is that we don't want you to play the game regrettably knowing how much sacrifice went into making something you could sit on the couch and enjoy. In a way, your satisfaction is the only thing that makes it all worth it.

Thanks for reading my little speech. I've been lurking on GAF for a while and have always wanted to get this off my chest as a person who has at times been massively depressed by what I read on forums. I can't tell you how many times I've wrote a reply on GAF, only to hit cancel and not post it. Please don't quote me or spin this post as a reflection of my company. Again, this is strictly my perspective alone, but I hope it helps change some people's perspectives and builds some communal empathy for developers who are ultimately gamers just like the rest of us.
 
most developers probably come away from this site super bummed. i'm surprised denis dyack was the only five alarm meltdown in the forum's 10+ year history (that i know of)
 
vinikun said:
So I'm a dev, and I can tell you that a lot of devs, esp at big AAA studios read GAF.

Now I have to stress that what I say here is entirely my opinion and shouldn't reflect at all what the industry at large feels nor the company I work at. I just thought I'd share my 2 cents.

Personally, I find GAF to be at times one of the most reasonable gaming communities on the internet, but at other times pretty irrational. This is really just a biproduct of the passion of all the enthusiasts on this forum.

I will say that reading GAF as a developer is often an unhealthy thing. It's kinda like an emotional rollercoaster - after release you're always looking to hear about what fans think of your game, sometimes you'll find a comment that resonates with you (even criticisms of the game! I find myself often nodding in agreement), but then other times there are those terribly insensitive comments that get you questioning your line of work. I consider myself lucky to work on a game that's actually really highly regarded, esp amongst the GAF community. But even so, it's tough to bear sometimes.

Sometimes honestly I feel like that mom who bends over backwards to provide for their kid. In return, the kid yells and cries and doesn't appreciate anything you do for them, only asking for the next toy on their list, ignorant of toys you bought for them last month, last week, yesterday. I don't mean that as a slight to the community, and really it's just those few who maybe want to offer feedback but dont know or wish to form it in a constructive way. Don't get me wrong, I'm a GAF member as well, I'm a gamer, I see things in games and I wonder why they did what they did. Being on the other side though, I know there are often good reasons for why things are the way they are, or aren't. At the end of the day, we try our absolute best to deliver what we can without killing ourselves (and sometimes we do. Can't tell you how many people in this industry have health problems, relationship issues, etc), and people try to pin it on companies working their employees too hard, but often times we just want to deliver the best thing we can and have a hard time settling for less even if sometimes we absolutely have to.

What I'm asking for, and thankfully what's becoming "a thing" slowly, is empathy for developers. Understanding. It's hard to have perspective on game development when you're not in the thick of it. Part of it is that we don't want you to play the game regrettably knowing how much sacrifice went into making something you could sit on the couch and enjoy. In a way, your satisfaction is the only thing that makes it all worth it.

Thanks for reading my little speech. I've been lurking on GAF for a while and have always wanted to get this off my chest as a person who has at times been massively depressed by what I read on forums. I can't tell you how many times I've wrote a reply on GAF, only to hit cancel and not post it. Please don't quote me or spin this post as a reflection of my company. Again, this is strictly my perspective alone, but I hope it helps change some people's perspectives and builds some communal empathy for developers who are ultimately gamers just like the rest of us.
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This is wonderful. No developer is lazy or wants to make something people don't want. Most devs could make a lot more money anywhere other than games. They want the good thing as much as GAF does.
 
As someone who has been in the crossfires before at my last job and quickly realized he should just avoid posting in any official capacity, I will admit that as mean-spirited as a lot of people can be they are often times in the right. It's hard to blame people for over-reacting to things when they have no real way to know all of the details in any scenario.

Obviously anything bordering on harassment (ala NMS stuff) is way overboard but even nasty comments can have valid criticisms behind the vitriol and developers should try to look beyond it.
 
ckaneo said:
GAF is much tamer than the rest of the internet.
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Yeah, I'm just not buying into this whole "we suck the life out of everyone and everything" narrative. Have there been some clusterfuck threads? Yep. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. But I just got done catching up with the Cosmic Star Heroine thread where the developer is actively engaged and the posts are thoughtful. Where else are you going to go to get that kind of interaction?
 
That's very strange I mean in my three year life on GAF I usually take many replies with a grain of salt, you can't take everything hear realistically as more than half of it is usually some conjecture people shit out then forget about the next day.
 
First of all let's see how the game turns out, Sony clearly had a reason to drop them and it will be interesting to find out what was it.
About the mean comments...this is one of the negative aspects of the network.
But quite frankly a professional should be able to filter these comments taking out positive criticism and letting the rest go knowing that tons of people write whatever they want feeling protected by anonymity. Also if Neogaf is bad...he probably hasn't read the comments that get posted on Youtube in general.
 
NeoGAF can be harsh. It's either your game is amazing and gushing with praise, or every little complaint gets magnified 100x making a decent game look anything but.
 
Not gonna lie I feel bad about it. Not that I said anything I didn't even know about the game. But small devs are doing this shit for the love of it. Whether they over promise or under deliver or it falls apart completely in development is one thing, but they're pouring their hearts into it.

It's not like people get into indie game development to make riches off of suckers. Their in the wrong business if that's their goal.
 
Its funny cause i was just reading the thread about Rime's price on Switch and i only saw a few posts that really sounded asinine. The rest of the thread was people not putting up with their business.

Unless people here are legit attacking the devs personally which i doubt.
 
If I could just say...


I'm almost positive that's not Evilore in the Dave Chappelle special.

I mean the faces look entirely different.
 
Some folk just seem to lack any form of social filter, that Peter Moore goodbye thread recently was a good example.
 
Messofanego said:
This is interesting in contrast to having played it and renewing my confidence in the game being pretty cool.



I think it might be the thread about Tequila Works gaining the rights to Rime thanks to Grey Box.
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Oh yeah I knew that was a thread that triggered a negative response since it's the one mentioned in the OP but the article made me feel like there had been something a bit more recent that caused this so I went to look it up since Rime nearly never gets any threads lol.
 
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