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[alt27]

I think mosgt game OTs are pretty good here. I think ME Andormeda sticks in alot of peoples mind as it was generally a let down compared to previous entries and that that 100 page bug thread but over the past 6 months I cant think of many others.

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

most developers probably come away from this site super bummed. i'm surprised denis dyack was the only five alarm meltdown in the forum's 10+ year history (that i know of)

Link ?

 

[Crayon]

Link ?

Oh man.

http://kotaku.com/5022188/dyack-vs-neogaf-part-ii

 

[Wiitardation]

The Switch delay and Switch tax on Rime made me cry........

Tears of laughter.

 

[Nosgotham]

The Switch delay and Switch tax on Rime made me cry........

Tears of laughter.

?

 

[The Lamp]

Yes he is overreacting, but neogaf is also very toxic and hateful about many games/developers.

Developers used to comment here. It's literally been years since I've seen a major developer comment here.

 

[Kayant]

Then Tequila Works reaquired the rights to RiME. Rime was initially going to be a PS4 exclusive. The deal fell through. and the "gotcha" posts started to appear. You know, the usual stuff.

But then there was the bomb: This post allegedly confirming everybody's rumors and more. There was no "game".

The pile on started soon and the rest is history.

But then the game reappeared, looking just like the reveal trailer, releasing soon and is apparently.. pretty good? So it was all an aimless witch hunt? Who would have thought.

This is missing the fact they promised updates multiple times at different events there would an update from their last trailer( which was gamescom in 2014 iirc before the Sony separation) but nothing ever happened and giving statements like this -

@JHerraez - PR Manager at Tequila: "We have confirmed Tequila Works will be present at Gamescom, but we haven't confirmed RiME will be present."

https://twitter.com/JHerraez/status/758392974556426240

And then them seemingly lying because what they say doesn't line up -

"We didn't knew we had to submit a trailer for Gamescom, we thought Sony would handle it themselves. We ended having to cut some portions of the game to put them in the trailer"
"The trailer is representative of what the game looks like, but some cameras won't work like that. The game won't have cutscenes, everything is playable"
"The game is coming out next year, it's pretty much confirmed, ask Sony to give details" (this interview was in 2014)
"The game is playable from beginning to end, everything regarding content is finished, we just have to polish it"
"People who have finished the game have cried watching the ending"

Yeah... lol

Would post a list of all the updates they promised but can't find it atm.

They have only themselves to blame for how they were treated. Yes neogaf or any other place online can be assholes and be harsh at times but in the situation rime was in with the way the developer was handling PR/lack of info can't really fault anymore for being mean.

Edit -

Threads from where these quotes above come from should be read for more context.

 

[Yukinari]

I sincerely hope Jon Blow and Phil Fish dont read Gaf often then cause they might do backflips over the stuff people post.

Well more so Phil.

 

[Some Nobody]

Developers used to comment here. It's literally been years since I've seen a major developer comment here.

Not worth it. Either you get yelled at or you snap and say something that makes your PR department's head explode. So when at best you aren't penalized and at worst you wreck things, why even show up?

And yeah, this place isn't exactly the kindest...but most places on the Internet aren't, unfortunately. All of us could stand to be a bit nicer, I guess.

 

[Donthizz#]

self inflicted. if you can't handle criticism don't look at internet forums or find another profession.

 

[Wandering Robot]

It would be more helpful if the devs gave more concrete examples, since we're talking about a very large forum with a wide variety of opinions. A lot of those will be constructive; a lot of them won't. There's nothing wrong with crying it out, but I honestly don't know what upset him to that degree (especially after all the problems the game has had--you'd think you'd be aware of how those could color opinions).
In the case of calling out issues, that's perfectly fair. Acknowledge them and use them to improve. GAF isn't all kindness and politeness all the time, but given the game's history, I'm loath to believe the creative developer only found 100% dogpiling on whatever part of GAF he read. Sucks to have to see pointless vitriol aimed at your baby, though. Hm.

Spoiler

Are people still taking the first reply seriously

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Developers used to comment here. It's literally been years since I've seen a major developer comment here.

To be fair, I think that part of that is because standalone forums in general are very Internet 1.0. GAF is still pretty big, but the Internet is dominated by social media and Reddit.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't know that hyper-positivity is necessarily an absolute good, either.

Especially when it becomes weaponized to drown out or attack everyone who isn't.

 

[xJavonta]

Hope he doesn't read Reddit because if you think gaf is bad hoo boy.

Gaf is pretty terrible at times, but a lot of the time it's alright. Just the nature of the internet.

 

[justsomeguy]

Totally see where he's coming from. There are some great posters here (hi synth ) but you need serious amounts of ignore list to get many threads readable.

 

[Jinroh]

I totally forgot about this game, last (and first) time I saw it was back in 2013 I think? I was very excited and then it disappeared.

 

[Jack cw]

I hope no mass effect dev reads on GAF. This place has always been toxic and full of childish rage and anger but the last couple of years were especially sad.

 

[PaulloDEC]

We can't make you be nice.

For the various folks who'd like to blame moderation for allowing people to act cruelly, that's something you should probably know. More to the point, you don't want us to try and make you be nice, because we have blunt tools, and the way we'd do it is tighten up on banning negative, hostile comments.

You don't want us to do that, because you're guilty of it. Go look in your reading history right now. If you can't find a single comment that someone might think was nasty or unpleasant, I will be deeply surprised. That means the rest of you would be banned.

No rule we can put up, no pogrom of bans, no effort on our part can make you change the way you talk to other people. I've spent a lot of time on OT trying to convince people not to be assholes directly to each other, with little success, so the idea that we're going to stop people from being assholes about someone who isn't here or made promises they didn't keep, is a fantasy.

The only person that can make you behave better, make you remember that there are people on the other side of the keyboard, is you. And you can't make anyone else behave better, either. Each of us can only be responsible for ourselves.

It's easy to blame "GAF" as if the software and hardware were making the comments. It's easy to blame moderation, although it's you guys who create all the content, not us. It's less easy to take a look at your own posting and make changes. But if you want GAF to be a nicer place, that's literally your only option, because GAF is a collective of thousands of different voices, and those voices create the chorus that people perceive.

So keep throwing stones -- at developers, at moderators, at your fellow posters -- but you're part of the problem, and rather than deal with your part in the problem, you're engaging in negativity about other posters, the forum, and its staff. Try, instead, treating fellow posters, developers, and staff as if they were people. Consider that your funny, cruel joke is less funny and more cruel, and maybe don't post it. Moderate your language and instead of calling people scam artists, or shoving your head up your ass in self-righteousness about your consumer rights, consider that the company you're railing against is really just people trying to make something neat and failing rather than a conspiracy to rob you and make you play bad games.

I know this happened pages ago, but post-of-the-thread right here. The bolded is especially relevant to the subject of Rime.

 

[M52B28]

Yes he is overreacting, but neogaf is also very toxic and hateful about many games/developers.

No he is not. The majority of people on this site only play games, not create them. When people post criticism on this site, they often don't think about what it even takes to create a game and how much effort it takes to make it good.

 

[JamesJoyce1882]

He should form a self-help group with Colin Moriaty. Neogaf can indeed be relentless.

 

[Secret Fawful]

We can't make you be nice.

For the various folks who'd like to blame moderation for allowing people to act cruelly, that's something you should probably know. More to the point, you don't want us to try and make you be nice, because we have blunt tools, and the way we'd do it is tighten up on banning negative, hostile comments.

You don't want us to do that, because you're guilty of it. Go look in your reading history right now. If you can't find a single comment that someone might think was nasty or unpleasant, I will be deeply surprised. That means the rest of you would be banned.

No rule we can put up, no pogrom of bans, no effort on our part can make you change the way you talk to other people. I've spent a lot of time on OT trying to convince people not to be assholes directly to each other, with little success, so the idea that we're going to stop people from being assholes about someone who isn't here or made promises they didn't keep, is a fantasy.

The only person that can make you behave better, make you remember that there are people on the other side of the keyboard, is you. And you can't make anyone else behave better, either. Each of us can only be responsible for ourselves.

It's easy to blame "GAF" as if the software and hardware were making the comments. It's easy to blame moderation, although it's you guys who create all the content, not us. It's less easy to take a look at your own posting and make changes. But if you want GAF to be a nicer place, that's literally your only option, because GAF is a collective of thousands of different voices, and those voices create the chorus that people perceive.

So keep throwing stones -- at developers, at moderators, at your fellow posters -- but you're part of the problem, and rather than deal with your part in the problem, you're engaging in negativity about other posters, the forum, and its staff. Try, instead, treating fellow posters, developers, and staff as if they were people. Consider that your funny, cruel joke is less funny and more cruel, and maybe don't post it. Moderate your language and instead of calling people scam artists, or shoving your head up your ass in self-righteousness about your consumer rights, consider that the company you're railing against is really just people trying to make something neat and failing rather than a conspiracy to rob you and make you play bad games.

This topic makes me sad and seeing people rationalize someone's sorrow just sucks.

But thank you for this post. It's made me think harder about what I post, at least.

 

[PaulloDEC]

I don't know that hyper-positivity is necessarily an absolute good, either.

Especially when it becomes weaponized to drown out or attack everyone who isn't.

I don't think many people are crying out for blanket positivity. Speaking for myself, I think we all just need to learn to be critical and even negative without being callous, nasty jerks.

 

[kiaaa]

No he is not. The majority of people on this site only play games, not create them. When people post criticism on this site, they often don't think about what it even takes to create a game and how much effort it takes to make it good.

Because that's irrelevant when you're selling something. All that matters is the final product.

 

[yurinka]

Sometimes neogaf is really toxic. As an example, the 2 bullshit posts listed in the OT and the huge related controversy really hurted them, and all that was just based in false stuff.

Constructive criticism is good especially when deserved. But quite frequently instead of that neogaf gets full of not useful hyperbolic toxicity that only generates bad mood for everybody. And in this case it wasn't even because of how a game was. Seriously, think how stupid it is:

People were spreading false rumors and throwing shit just because they didn't show more stuff of the game during a long period of time and because they doubted the game was going to achieve what was shown in the original trailer. Hell, just wait and if you don't like the final result don't buy it and move on. There are hundreds of reasons -and many of them can't be controlled by devs- of why they couldn't show more during a long period of time, or why a game may be downgraded comparing the final result vs the original idea shown.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Shouldn't it be the opposite?

I mean, shouldn't people criticize about the game and the developers when it's released, not before it's released because in the end, it's the game in people's hands that's the central product of criticism? Because that's close to jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst (even if the product turns out good in the end).

Doom is the perfect example.. many people were shitting it before release and then turned around.

 

[epeternally]

Devs need to realize that gamers as a whole will never be happy. There will always be Debby Downers and those trying to crush hype.

We've normalized this. If we shunned those people they wouldn't be so vocal in public, even if their attitudes didn't cease to exist.

 

[BossDarkseid]

I sincerely hope Jon Blow and Phil Fish dont read Gaf often then cause they might do backflips over the stuff people post.

Well more so Phil.

Jon Blow posts from time to time. Seem to remember him ethering, or at least utterly schooling, someone who went full armchair developer on The Witness.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Because that's irrelevant when you're selling something. All that matters is the final product.

The way people portray their opinions here you'd think that they had spend a chunk of their lives developing games though

Besides, it's really telling when the subject in this case is a game that has yet to be released even

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Ouch. People are overly negative here though. I stopped bothering reading most tv shows on off topic because of cringe-worthy negative overall reception. It felt like I went into a topic discussing a completely mediocre to one of the worst tv shows out there.. where there's thousands of posts? :\

I remember s2 of True Detective which was just ok but nowhere near the genius of s1, people were literally rambling like they were watching the worst show of all time. I can't tell if there are a lot of cynics here sometimes. Or whether it's a lot of attention seeking from people who aren't getting it in real life and want to get noticed so they use hyperboles so someone can quote them. I don't know, it's cringey.

I'd recommend devs to stick more to trailer reveals at events or interviews, etc etc. That is far better on gaf where people are having a good time. Must not be healthy to read hundreds of people just go all in on your game, I can't even fathom Crying for two days about it makes me feel for the dude though.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Doom is the perfect example.. many people were shitting it before release and then turned around.

It had a really bad beta and then Bethesda hid it until release.

It's not like there was nothing to go on.

 

[chronic_archaic]

It had a really bad beta and then Bethesda hid it until release.

It's not like there was nothing to go on.

One third of the game that wasn't even bad. People overreacted.

 

[Hermii]

I hope Retro doesn't read gaf, the "fucking Donkey Kong" thread is one of the meanest threads I saw here.

But then again the game gets a lot of praise here from people who actually played it.

 

[takriel]

Some people (including me) can have pretty strong opinions about video games and entertainment culture in general and perhaps get too emotionally invested in this hobby.

For example, I like Dark Souls 2, but I won't stop criticizing it, because I care deeply about the franchise and where From is headed next.

 

[Hydrargyrus]

This guy is a liar. I don't believe any of his words

 

[tsundoku]

I'm confused. he's retroactively emotional and scared and mad at perfectly legitimate complaints about the time when his game was a target render, getting funding from a company that doesnt do target renders and wasnt meeting milestones of being a playable product because they made a target render instead of finding out if their gameplay loop worked or was at all fun before seeking funding?
And he only read those posts now, after the game was actually done and had actual gameplay and actual puzzles and actual gameflow but its still affecting him and making him super emotional?
Is he upset because its reminding him of a time when his game was basically a lie because he went into it with the concept of "kickstarter culture" where you make a target render / aesthetics and themes video and just magically trust that you'll come up with solid and compelling gameplay / a vertical slice of that gameflow to secure continuing funding after you get the first funds in?

 

[Nibel]

Cliffy B was right about GAF 🤔

 

[ShockingAlberto]

One third of the game that wasn't even bad. People overreacted.

Or they didn't like it and their opinions aren't the same as yours.

 

[Always-honest]

Yeah that's sad to read. But i don't understand why he was so sad when he really knew what was going on. It's also sad that GAF is seen as one entity. Some people here react like the typical internet tough guy but most are very reasonable with constructive criticism.

I do think we should stop with the COMPLETELY idiotic bashing of games with terms as "garbage" (when in reality it's at least a decent game), "lazy devs", etc. That's just really dumb imo. People work damn hard on these games. Sometimes with all their available time and energy.

Some people seem to think that when you're harsh, people take you seriously, or something stupid like that.

 

[Double Donut]

This is really depressing. Game developers have extremely strong wills to work in an industry where you'll be judged so harshly.

It's the exact reason I can't stand the hyperbole surrounding video games. Someone doesn't like a few things about a game? A game simply isn't to their personal taste? "Jesus, this game is fucking dogshit, people actually play this?".

Ugh.

 

[RulkezX]

Yeah that's sad to read. But i don't understand why he was so sad when he really knew what was going on. It's also sad that GAF is seen as one entity. Some people here react like the typical internet tough guy but most are very reasonable with constructive criticism.

People post that over and over but is bs the community tells them self to keep that GAF superiority complex up.

GAF excels cause the mod team is in the ball with dealing with politically charged stuff. It's fantastic as a news aggregate and for pooling info for large events. It's less fun to actually discuss games, though.


If you showed a non gander with no knowledge of the forum this site, I think you'd be hard pressed to convince them we actually like anything.

However....

I'm not sure what would have been said to upset this dude as much.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Some people seem to think that when you're harsh, people take you seriously, or something stupid like that.

There was a GAFer, who will remain nameless because there's no point in calling them out, that once admitted they were overly-negative because that's how they perceived online discussion to work. If you want to change things, the thing you're arguing against has to be rotten to its core, and all the people associated are malicious. That's the only way you get it to change.

Which, like, I can see the reasoning. In a modern context, when the people you're talking about are nazis and white supremacists, those people are actually bad. But when it's that you don't feel like the character designs are appealing for all players? Maybe that's not the time to go nuclear.

To some extent, I do wonder how many people who call out something as garbage really believe that, or they just think it's the only way their criticism will be noticed.

 

[Freshmaker]

Some people (including me) can have pretty strong opinions about video games and entertainment culture in general and perhaps get too emotionally invested in this hobby.

For example, I like Dark Souls 2, but I won't stop criticizing it, because I care deeply about the franchise and where From is headed next.

Yeah. I dislike the first hour of River City Ransom Underground. It was slow and the characters were severely hobbled until you could level up enough and then save enough cash to buy actual combos, and I'm still not a fan of using every button on the Xbox or PS4 controller rather than using the simpler less cumbersome NES style controls...

But I still like the game. Those are simply areas I think the game could be improved on. I had to put a guy on ignore over those "strong opinions" since he randomly decided I had to be lying about how I disliked those elements. There needs to be some dissenting opinions if there is going to be any kind of actual discussion. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people saying "this is fine"on endless loop.

 

[alt27]

Cliffy B was right about GAF 🤔

Is that guy that claimed reddit was better ? LOL

 

[ShockingAlberto]

But I still like the game. Those are simply areas I think the game could be improved on. I had to put a guy on ignore over those "strong opinions" since he randomly decided I had to be lying about how I disliked those elements. There needs to be some dissenting opinions if there is going to be any kind of actual discussion. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people saying "this is fine"on endless loop.

OTs are awful about this. Especially divisive but not popular games - the people inside are defensive and prickly and are eager to shut down any dissent.

 

[Cuningas de Häme]

People post that over and over but is bs the community tells them self to keep that GAF superiority complex up.

GAF excels cause the mod team is in the ball with dealing with politically charged stuff. It's fantastic as a news aggregate and for pooling info for large events. It's less fun to actually discuss games, though.

Yeah... I am pretty new to this site, and I can't tell the difference between Reddit or any other gaming forum. There's some awesome posters on this forum (Thraktor, blu comes to mind from Switch speculations) but majority just the same shitposting, fanboying crap one can find everywhere. Especially if Sony is "threatened" by something.

The informative threads are awesome here, but way too often it becomes some crazy e-peen competition. I always thought that this forum is for proper discussion between gaming enthusiasts, but it certainly doesn't feel like that. Especially every damn topic regarding Nintendo always boils down to same stupid shitposts and those usually by the same people, one would think that repeated shitposting is a bannable offence but...

And the amount of devs and other industry people saying that this place is just plain toxic should ring some alarm bells... When you get decent people banned because some arbitrary reasons and then shitposters just continue thrive it really is not a good look for this forum.

EDIT. I've never seen the same amount of hatred in Reddit that I've seen here. Just saying... But to be fair I just can't understand how Reddit works, that site is so bad. Hate using it, like forums like this a lot more.

 

[Felensis]

GAF is invaluable to me in many ways when it comes to the video games industry. We have members who contribute in many ways and we have many intelligent and very well educated folks on here from all walks of life. The OTs here are very informative, the scoops posted on here are second to almost no one except Press Sneak Fuck, and I always come here first before I go to IGN, GameSpot, Glixel etc.

Having said all that this forum leans left and dangerously so. If you're a conservative or even have conservative leaning views you might as well just not say a darn thing. Outrage culture and PC culture can be pretty rampant on here like in many places on the internets. Colin Moriarty's tweet comes to mind and just the hatefulness folks spewed towards him. Tbh even before that, the PS I Love You XoXo thread was toxic as shit.

Fanboys will be fanboys so I don't really mind when the Xbots and SDF go at each other. Annoying at times but meh. NMS debacle was just too much, again just hatefulness spewed towards Sean Murray over a game. You'd think he promised the coming of a new God. Some Gaffers are way way up their own asses and just wanna die on this self-righteous hill of everyone wins. No not everyone wins. In life you have winners and losers. It is what it is.

We can't make you be nice.

For the various folks who'd like to blame moderation for allowing people to act cruelly, that's something you should probably know. More to the point, you don't want us to try and make you be nice, because we have blunt tools, and the way we'd do it is tighten up on banning negative, hostile comments.

You don't want us to do that, because you're guilty of it. Go look in your reading history right now. If you can't find a single comment that someone might think was nasty or unpleasant, I will be deeply surprised. That means the rest of you would be banned.

No rule we can put up, no pogrom of bans, no effort on our part can make you change the way you talk to other people. I've spent a lot of time on OT trying to convince people not to be assholes directly to each other, with little success, so the idea that we're going to stop people from being assholes about someone who isn't here or made promises they didn't keep, is a fantasy.

The only person that can make you behave better, make you remember that there are people on the other side of the keyboard, is you. And you can't make anyone else behave better, either. Each of us can only be responsible for ourselves.

It's easy to blame "GAF" as if the software and hardware were making the comments. It's easy to blame moderation, although it's you guys who create all the content, not us. It's less easy to take a look at your own posting and make changes. But if you want GAF to be a nicer place, that's literally your only option, because GAF is a collective of thousands of different voices, and those voices create the chorus that people perceive.

So keep throwing stones -- at developers, at moderators, at your fellow posters -- but you're part of the problem, and rather than deal with your part in the problem, you're engaging in negativity about other posters, the forum, and its staff. Try, instead, treating fellow posters, developers, and staff as if they were people. Consider that your funny, cruel joke is less funny and more cruel, and maybe don't post it. Moderate your language and instead of calling people scam artists, or shoving your head up your ass in self-righteousness about your consumer rights, consider that the company you're railing against is really just people trying to make something neat and failing rather than a conspiracy to rob you and make you play bad games.

Absolutely this! /thread

That's why I brought up this whole topic in the EDGE #305 thread. BTW thanks Ahasverus for creating this dedicated thread about it and digging up all of the context!

I just don't get when such negativity unfolds on the internet or in this specific case on NeoGAF (which I generally love to visit and which I in general don't see as a place known for negativity and

Spoiler

hype

hate )

Why people want to publicly lynch devs of a entertainment product, a game, is beyond my imagination. As if the devs want to personally harm or rob you. Also accusations of devs being lying. I mean I even wouldn't consider Peter Molyneux a lyer. Sure the guy has a problem with overpromising and thus meeting expectations, but I don't think he did this on purpose. Just as an example. I mean how many real cases were reported were devs intentionally were lying or trying to harm/rob people?

I feel very sorry for Rául of Tequila Works. I'm excited for Rime ever since it's reveal trailer and I couldn't care less about the reveal trailer being basically a render target or if Sony let down the game as a publisher. How can someone feel affected by those facts? As long as you're not personally invested into this project in any way whether it be financially or as part of the team it doesn't affect you or your life in any way.

I'm just happy that the game will finally be released next month and that I can play it then on my Switch.

 

[meirl]

Its kinda sad, but the only real Solution to this Problem is... Just ignore them. Dont Listen to them. Dont Listen to what people say online.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

Tommorow we forget this article and go on about other games.....

People

 

[Sidewinder]

Just checked what I said in that thread:

Yeah it really was a looker, such a shame ;(

It's not my fault!!1

 

[Lo_Fi]

Isn't it a given in most creative circles that you're better off not reading reviews or getting into it with people on the internet over their analysis of your work?

Within game development circles, the golden rule is "don't read the comments". Half the time it's stated jokingly, though. I can tell you as a developer, It's really really hard to not go looking for people's thoughts. Think about it. You've spent years on this thing and the only reactions you've seen from people playing it is coworkers and MAYBE playtesters if you're in a small company. Wouldn't you be curious?