NBA 2017 Playoffs |OT| WE DID IT

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LionPride said:
No, but before Marc signed his deal? Before Conley signed his deal? Yeah. I wanted them to tank and start over, get ahead of the curve and rebuild sooner rather than later.

With the Celtics, I'm still positive that IT doean't help them in the future. I don't foresee him being able to score this much in a few years.
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the difference is that with the cap flexibility and assets (young players/draft picks) they have they are in a position to supplement their roster so that if IT and Horford do lose a step in a couple of years, they can still field a competitive team. Teams like Memphis or the Clippers did not have this advantage.
 
LionPride said:
No, but before Marc signed his deal? Before Conley signed his deal? Yeah. I wanted them to tank and start over, get ahead of the curve and rebuild sooner rather than later.

With the Celtics, I'm still positive that IT doean't help them in the future. I don't foresee him being able to score this much in a few years.
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He helps them immensely over the next few years and the C's already have arguably the best collection of future assets in the league. With IT they're set to compete now and into the future. Why blowup an ECF caliber team for another middling pick to throw onto the pile?
 
Ninja Scooter said:
the difference is that with the cap flexibility and assets (young players/draft picks) they have they are in a position to supplement their roster so that if IT and Horford do lose a step in a couple of years, they can still field a competitive team. Teams like Memphis or the Clippers did not have this advantage.
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Yeah. A lot of this boils down to my dislike for paying a 30 year old, 5'8 pg who can't play defense. That's really it, I don't think his game will translate well in a couple of years. Horford? He'll be fine.
 
Pft the Hawks were a 60 win team and went to the ECF. What did they do to get to the next level?

The let their best wing defender leave, one of the most versatile, all around big men leave, sign the decaying corpse of Dwight Howard and sign Kent "17 mil a year to turn the ball over" Bazemore.

I don't really have a say in this argument, I'm just sharing my agony of ATL sports.
 
LionPride said:
Yeah. A lot of this boils down to my dislike for paying a 30 year old, 5'8 pg who can't play defense. That's really it, I don't think his game will translate well in a couple of years. Horford? He'll be fine.
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I don't like it either. And if the Celtics were a 25 win team, I'd be against it, and so would they. But they aren't. If you can get 2-3 more top tier seasons out of IT, while contending for a title, and then he completely falls off and becomes an albatross on your cap, you do it.
 
LionPride said:
Yeah. A lot of this boils down to my dislike for paying a 30 year old, 5'8 pg who can't play defense. That's really it, I don't think his game will translate well in a couple of years. Horford? He'll be fine.
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I mean he's in his prime right now and has a few years of that left so he theoretically wouldn't drop off until late into the contract. It's not like he's been on a lot of postseason runs to wear him down
 
panthapanda said:
Pft the Hawks were a 60 win team and went to the ECF. What did they do to get to the next level?

The let their best wing defender leave, one of the most versatile, all around big men leave, sign the decaying corpse of Dwight Howard and sign Kent "17 mil a year to turn the ball over" Bazemore.

I don't really have a say in this argument, I'm just sharing my agony of ATL sports.
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At least the Falcons made it to the SB.
 
panthapanda said:
Pft the Hawks were a 60 win team and went to the ECF. What did they do to get to the next level?

The let their best wing defender leave, one of the most versatile, all around big men leave, sign the decaying corpse of Dwight Howard and sign Kent "17 mil a year to turn the ball over" Bazemore.

I don't really have a say in this argument, I'm just sharing my agony of ATL sports.
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ATL sports don't see highs. Ever.
metalslimer said:
I mean he's in his prime right now and has a few years of that left so he theoretically wouldn't drop off until late into the contract. It's not like he's been on a lot of postseason runs to wear him down
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Eh. I give him 2-3 more years then that shit is over
 
panthapanda said:
Pft the Hawks were a 60 win team and went to the ECF. What did they do to get to the next level?

The let their best wing defender leave, one of the most versatile, all around big men leave, sign the decaying corpse of Dwight Howard and sign Kent "17 mil a year to turn the ball over" Bazemore.

I don't really have a say in this argument, I'm just sharing my agony of ATL sports.
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The thing is the Hawks were where the Raptors are now. Good team with no realistic championship aspirations because their brief window coincided with LeBron's prime. The Celtics are still young enough and have a bright enough future to outlast LeBron.
 
LionPride said:
Yall draft well. It wouldn't be a bench player. If IT can be the last pick on the NBA draft, I think an actually competent team can pick someone
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Doesn't matter who's drafting, odds are you're getting a bench player unless you're using a top 5 pick. And again, they are already loaded with picks.
 
LionPride said:
Yall draft well. It wouldn't be a bench player. If IT can be the last pick on the NBA draft, I think an actually competent team can pick someone
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You are using outliers and acting like they are common occurrences. For every mid/late first or 2nd rounder that turns into IT or Draymond or Kawhi, there are dozens of guys you never heard of, even from teams with good scouting departments and front offices. It's a total crap shoot. But you are right, they draft well, which is why they will be better able to absorb a max deal for IT because they will use their other assets and picks (of which they have numerous) to supplement the roster with good players.
 
The C's are two games away from the ECF with tons of youth and an incredible collection of assets, trying to go for the homerun play by trading IT away for a pick is the easiest way for this to all go south.
 
LionPride said:
Yall draft well. It wouldn't be a bench player. If IT can be the last pick on the NBA draft, I think an actually competent team can pick someone
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I think you might be overestimating Ainge's draft record. Bradley was a nice find, but Smart and Olynck ( a de facto pick) are unremarkable relative to their draft position, Brown and Rozier are still too unproven to say either way, and the rest of their current core was acquired in trades or free agency. Danny is great at fleecing teams via trade, but he is not clairvoyant wrt evaluating 19 year olds. Bradley is really the only home run in like at least a decade.
 
LyleLanley said:
The C's are two games away from the ECF with tons of youth and an incredible collection of assets, trying to go for the homerun play by trading IT away for a pick is the easiest way for this to all go south.
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And trading 3 quality players for 1 star is a good way to make the ECF the furthest we will ever get with that squad.

Praise Daniel
 
Hi, my name is Dwane Casey, and I don't believe in trying serious adjustments until AFTER game 1.
According to sources, Raptors head coach Dwane Casey -- desperate to find a way to score enough to keep up with the Cleveland Cavaliers, who are averaging 113.4-points points a game through five playoff starts -- is giving strong consideration to sitting both Carroll and Valanciunas for Game 2.

In their place would go Powell and rookie Jakob Poeltl. Powell's role would be to reprise the added ball-handling and shooting that the second-year guard provided the Raptors when he started Games 4-6 against the Milwaukee Bucks while the Austrian rookie would be expected to give Toronto some additional quickness to help on the Cavs pick-and-roll attacks while still maintaining some size to battle the offensive rebounding pressure Cleveland's Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love bring.
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Poeltl might actually work, tbh. Better than JV this year.

As for still not starting Tucker?

I don't even know. Lebron or Love are going to FEAST on Powell, the Raptors don't need to give up that much defense for a scoring infusion

Casey needs to be out. This Raptors roster is dying for Messina or Stackhouse to force them to move the ball around throughout the regular season - they're so damn good when doing it, and have a great defense which is flexible and has the option for switch heavy lineups if necessary
 
Hyperactivity said:
Hi, my name is Dwane Casey, and I don't believe in trying serious adjustments until AFTER game 1.

Poeltl might actually work, tbh. Better than JV this year.

As for still not starting Tucker?

I don't even know. Lebron or Love are going to FEAST on Powell, the Raptors don't need to give up that much defense for a scoring infusion
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Completely agree. They definitely need to play Powell more minutes but he should never be in a position where he is having to guard LeBron for extended periods of time. He'll spend all his energy on defense and they'll lose his offensive output. Start Tucker and Poeltl in place of Carroll and Valanciunas. Matchup Tucker with LeBron and bring in Carroll for Tucker when LeBron exits with a few minutes left in the first. I'd rather see Ibaka defend LeBron than Powell or Carroll. At last he isn't going to be bullied and he lays off enough to prevent the blow by.
 
LyleLanley said:
Even Rozier is looking good, no one is ever allowed to doubt Ainge again.
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Let's take a breath people. The biggest argument for Ainge to make a move for a star at the deadline was that they were one piece away from a title. If anything this play by the Celtics has proved that they should have gone all in.

Let's also not get ahead of ourselves and think this series is over. They're up 2-0 in large part because in game 1 they had an uncharacteristically great 3 point shooting performance, and in game 2 Isaiah Thomas had the greatest game of his career. Also if Horford didn't commit a dirty play on Morris and take him out of the second half of game 1, while also drastically limiting his mobility on defense in game 2, the Wizards would be up 2-0. Don't forget Washington doesn't have their best bench player available yet either. If Mahinmi ever comes back in the series, Washington's bench and defense will significantly improve.

And even if the Celtics do pull it off and beat a 49 win Wizards team (who are the 8th best team in the NBA at best), they aren't a title contender because they have absolutely no chance of beating Cleveland, Golden State, or Houston.
 
Boogs31 said:
Let's take a breath people. The biggest argument for Ainge to make a move for a star at the deadline was that they were one piece away from a title. If anything this play by the Celtics has proved that they should have gone all in.

Let's also not get ahead of ourselves and think this series is over. They're up 2-0 in large part because in game 1 they had an uncharacteristically great 3 point shooting performance, and in game 2 Isaiah Thomas had the greatest game of his career. Also if Horford didn't commit a dirty play on Morris and take him out of the second half of game 1, while also drastically limiting his mobility on defense in game 2, the Wizards would be up 2-0. Don't forget Washington doesn't have their best bench player available yet either. If Mahinmi ever comes back in the series, Washington's bench and defense will significantly improve.

And even if the Celtics do pull it off and beat a 49 win Wizards team (who are the 8th best team in the NBA at best), they aren't a title contender because they have absolutely no chance of beating Cleveland, Golden State, or Houston.
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As much as I'm enjoying this postseason I don't think the C's are just one attainable piece away from being a legit championship contender. It's better to stay the course than blow up the core and give away our entire future for a Butler or George.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Again, 2-3 years from now is 2-3 years from now. If you are an ECF team you do what you try to win now. It's the same concept with Horford. Al is not going to be a $25 million/year player in 2-3 years, but you still give him that contract because he is helping you now, when you are close. You seem to think you can just plug in and replace great players like nothing and keep chugging along. Like, you keep bringing up the number 1 pick, as if 19 year old Markelle Fultz is just going to step in and replace allstar/mvp canditate Isaiah Thomas in an instant and the team will keep chugging along. It's ridiculous honestly. Jaylen Brown has had by all accounts a pretty good rookie season, and even he hit a wall and has been unplayable for large parts of the playoffs. That's what rookies do. It's an insane amount of pressure to ask a 19 year old point guard to just step in and keep a team competitive over the next year or two, and completely unreasonable and unrealistic.
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KAT isn't replacing Anthony Davis for the Pelicans, not yet. The Spurs built around Tim Duncan and David Robinson at the same time, and you had earlier portions where Robinson was a bigger part and he formed a 1-2 punch with Duncan, and later portions where Duncan was carrying a mostly old Robinson to a championship in 2003

LyleLanley said:
As much as I'm enjoying this postseason I don't think the C's are just one attainable piece away from being a legit championship contender. It's better to stay the course than blow up the core and give away our entire future for a Butler or George.
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I think it's more the lack of any moves, not moves regarding the 2017 pick. Bulls and Pacers, if they're smart, at least wait until the draft.

It's just that the Wizards turned shit into Bojan, and the Raptors turned shit into PJ Tucker, etc. and the Cavs got their stupid buy out players, and the Celtics pursued Bogut?
 
LyleLanley said:
As much as I'm enjoying this postseason I don't think the C's are just one attainable piece away from being a legit championship contender. It's better to stay the course than blow up the core and give away our entire future for a Butler or George.
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I think you're underestimating how much 1 top 10 player can improve a basketball team. Especially a player that is a top 10 offensive and defensive player like Butler is. And yes the Celtics would have had to give up their "future" to acquire him but they wouldn't have to give up all their future picks plus a bunch of key role players to get it done. Both Brooklyn picks and Smart with Zeller thrown in would have probably gotten it done. And I don't care about rumors that the Bulls wanted players, any rational gm would accept that trade. The Celtics with the exact same rotation with Butler in Smart's place is every bit a title contender.
 
Boogs31 said:
I think you're underestimating how much 1 top 10 player can improve a basketball team. Especially a player that is a top 10 offensive and defensive player like Butler is. And yes the Celtics would have had to give up their "future" to acquire him but they wouldn't have to give up all their future picks plus a bunch of key role players to get it done. Both Brooklyn picks and Smart with Zeller thrown in would have probably gotten it done. And I don't care about rumors that the Bulls wanted players, any rational gm would accept that trade. The Celtics with the exact same rotation with Butler in Smart's place is every bit a title contender.
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Butler puts them in the immediate now. Both Brooklyn picks for Butler is terrible, especially if you don't even know you're a 50/50 shot for the finals with that smh
 
Hyperactivity said:
KAT isn't replacing Anthony Davis for the Pelicans, not yet. The Spurs built around Tim Duncan and David Robinson at the same time, and you had earlier portions where Robinson was a bigger part and he formed a 1-2 punch with Duncan, and later portions where Duncan was carrying a mostly old Robinson to a championship in 2003
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What does the KAT replacing Anthony Davis comment mean? Very confused since they are not on the same team. And how are either of them relevant to the Celtics and the Brooklyn picks?

The Duncan comparison is ridiculous because the player the Celtics are going to be drafting is going to be 19 years old and extremely raw. Duncan was a 4 year college player, came into the league as a 21 year old, and as a rookie was a top 10 player in the league. Fultz and Ball are not going to be superstars right away, and aren't even for sure stars. Everyone knew Duncan was going to be great immediately.
 
Hyperactivity said:
Butler puts them in the immediate now. Both Brooklyn picks for Butler is terrible, especially if you don't even know you're a 50/50 shot for the finals with that smh
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Butler is under contract for 2 more years after this. That would have given the Celtics a 3 year title window with at the very least : Thomas, Butler, Horford, Crowder, Brown, Rozier.
 
Boogs31 said:
What does the KAT replacing Anthony Davis comment mean? Very confused since they are not on the same team. And how are either of them relevant to the Celtics and the Brooklyn picks?

The Duncan comparison is ridiculous because the player the Celtics are going to be drafting is going to be 19 years old and extremely raw. Duncan was a 4 year college player, came into the league as a 21 year old, and as a rookie was a top 10 player in the league. Fultz or Ball are not going to be superstars right away, and aren't even for sure stars. Everyone knew Duncan was going to be great immediately.
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And the Celtics squad is relatively young, and Isiah likely has more years of his prime, and Jaylen Brown is also a rookie that will develop, sorta similar with Rozier, etc.

The best window for the Celtics? In the transition between the current contenders and the newer, younger teams (like the Bucks, Timberwolves, etc.), where the Celtics both have those young pieces, but also have the sort of personnel to pull a 2012 Heat Finals on those younger teams, but is younger and more athletic and can win against the older, aging teams. The Celtics picks give this possibility a very real probability of occurring, imo

If you look at the teams that give the Warriors some trouble, they're all young, athletic, and a little too young. The Celtics would be the most experienced of it, and adding to that advantage while also letting the Warriors do what they do, is a decent idea.

The main idea is that they go forward with a clear vision or clear ideas of where to go. That's what make terrible FOs terrible, they don't know what the fuck they want and how to get there.
 
Hyperactivity said:
And the Celtics squad is relatively young, and Isiah likely has more years of his prime, and Jaylen Brown is also a rookie that will develop, sorta similar with Rozier, etc.

The best window for the Celtics? In the transition between the current contenders and the newer, younger teams (like the Bucks, Timberwolves, etc.), where the Celtics both have those young pieces, but also have the sort of personnel to pull a 2012 Heat Finals on those younger teams, but is younger and more athletic and can win against the older, aging teams. The Celtics picks give this possibility a very real probability of occurring, imo
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You're essentially saying instead of wanting to contend now, when they could have had 2 star players with great role players around them, let's just wait, hope the Celtics not only win the lottery, but draft a guy that becomes a star, and when he becomes a star, still have the pieces around him to contend. You need stars and good role players to win titles. Both of those are not certainties in your 5 to 10 year plan. They could have done it now and had a 3 year window where they had all the necessary ingredients of a championship team.
 
Boogs31 said:
I think you're underestimating how much 1 top 10 player can improve a basketball team. Especially a player that is a top 10 offensive and defensive player like Butler is. And yes the Celtics would have had to give up their "future" to acquire him but they wouldn't have to give up all their future picks plus a bunch of key role players to get it done. Both Brooklyn picks and Smart with Zeller thrown in would have probably gotten it done. And I don't care about rumors that the Bulls wanted players, any rational gm would accept that trade. The Celtics with the exact same rotation with Butler in Smart's place is every bit a title contender.
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Rational gm? Chicago Bulls? If it was just picks + Smart and cap filler Jimmy Butler would be on the Celtics.
 
Boogs31 said:
I think you're underestimating how much 1 top 10 player can improve a basketball team. Especially a player that is a top 10 offensive and defensive player like Butler is. And yes the Celtics would have had to give up their "future" to acquire him but they wouldn't have to give up all their future picks plus a bunch of key role players to get it done. Both Brooklyn picks and Smart with Zeller thrown in would have probably gotten it done. And I don't care about rumors that the Bulls wanted players, any rational gm would accept that trade. The Celtics with the exact same rotation with Butler in Smart's place is every bit a title contender.
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So Ainge would be the one GM in history that traded a lottery pick and another number 1 pick for a player and his name was I got outplayed twice by Bradley in a series Butler...doubtful at best.
 
Man NBA's fallen into such a shit 2nd round. Only series of any intrigue I feel is Boston/Washington, and its unfortunately now 2-0. I feel like Rockets is 5. Cleveland and GSW are sweeps.

Shame CLE wasn't the 1-seed
 
J2 Cool said:
Man NBA's fallen into such a shit 2nd round. Only series of any intrigue I feel is Boston/Washington, and its unfortunately now 2-0. I feel like Rockets is 5. Cleveland and GSW are sweeps.

Shame CLE wasn't the 1-seed
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I feel ya, but I'm sure there's still some drama in the Rockets-Spurs series. Kawhi's talent and LMA's worth guarantee it. The Spurs may not win the series, but I highly doubt they're getting bopped in every single game.

Shoutouts to Beal and company wasting a great Wall performance. It was like I was watching. OKC's spiritual successor.
 
This Celts roster debate is hitting hilarious levels. Can we just agree tgat Danny needs MORE assests to make it work?


We all know thise assets are getting them a superstar play, right...
 
IT's a tough choice because no one else is gonna pay fair market value in a trade for him for the same reasons Boston probably doesn't reeeeally want to give him a max deal

He's not exactly young, he's short, and few people think you can build a championship team around him as the biggest star

Bad teams won't mortgage the future and give up their high lottery picks for him, and even if they did that's not enough value for him by itself. Contenders don't have valuable enough picks and wouldn't include a key piece in any deal.

The best case scenario would be if he'd agree to a less than max deal this off-season. Celtics save some money to keep building and IT gets paid fairly starting next year instead of having to wait for 2018-19

I don't see him taking it though. Someone will give him a max, whether it's Boston or elsewhere.
 
Amory said:
IT's a tough choice because no one else is gonna pay fair market value in a trade for him for the same reasons Boston probably doesn't reeeeally want to give him a max deal

He's not exactly young, he's short, and few people think you can build a championship team around him as the biggest star

Bad teams won't mortgage the future and give up their high lottery picks for him, and even if they did that's not enough value for him by itself. Contenders don't have valuable enough picks and wouldn't include a key piece in any deal.

The best case scenario would be if he'd agree to a less than max deal this off-season. Celtics save some money to keep building and IT gets paid fairly starting next year instead of having to wait for 2018-19

I don't see him taking it though. Someone will give him a max, whether it's Boston or elsewhere.
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Yep, he's gonna get the max somewhere. Now will Boston get something in return or let him walk?
 
Sometimes it's best to keep the great players you have instead of chasing a fever dream. IT still has more than a few good years left.
 
KD to Warriors really kind of puts a damper on the sport. Besides making them a freakshow, it also made them less exciting when KD is the one who takes the shots. Dude is an incredible specimen, but he along with Kawhi are just such boring snoozefest superstars to watch. Curry took 11 shots last night with 77%TS. I feel like with no KD, we would have seen 30 foot bombs, instead he's staying in some corner while KD iso's (yawn).

Low key feels like Neuer, Boateng, Lewandowski and Vidal join either Barca or Madrid this summer -_-
 
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