Support NeoGAF

[Mister Wolf]

I know my play through will be rise of the machines. I'm about that David/Skynet life no peaceful coexistence with humanity.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

That's where a lot of my fears lie. A bunch of posters are giving me shit because you see robots of colour in the trailer, but unless their stories are told, they're just window dressing. I will fully accept that I didn't realize that one of the protagonists was based on a real person who is mixed race however.

I... I can't think of any game where all of the NPCs had their stories explored. Do you want there to literally be no background characters, for them to all have deep, fulfilling plots?

I mean, either devs would have to reduce the number of NPCs dramatically, or everyone would have really short stories.

Would you feel the same about a white background character? Could you see how silly you're sounding if you try to imagine all of them being white, maybe?

 

[Kuroi Gogeta]

I have no interest in this game and no faith in its capacity for competent storytelling. (No prior experience with David Cage; just saying this from what was shown.)

That said, in its defence: if servile robots were conspicuously visible reminders of real-world historical oppression, there wouldn't be as much of a market for servile robots. The appeal of robot labour is the labour, not the fetish of targeted oppression (unless we're talking about sex dolls, which aren't exactly Roombas; they're an edge case where the fetish is actually the selling point). Robot labour exists to disguise the discomfort of ownership and shove it under the rug, in the same way that drone warfare disguises the human cost of war.

If you were a private firm turning out a line of autonomous humanoid servants, you would be absolutely mad to do anything to set off your consumers' buried moral guilt. You would quite specifically create robots that, out of prejudice or whatever else, the owners are more inclined to treat as equal partners and employees rather than an unjustly bound, potentially revolutionary threat.

Personally I think the game is a narrative goldmine of potential.

-Say you(in the role of the protagonist) want to destroy the production of new androids, what then happens to the people who were employed specifically to design and build androids and don't really know how to do anything else? I don't think its a coincidence that they chose Detroit--a city that has been plagued by economic problems to be the setting of this game. After auto manufacturing went downhill, so did Detroit. In this game, there's a second chance for the city to rise again. Would you be the person that sends it right back into that spiral of inequality?

-The subtitle is "become human" what does it mean to be human exactly? what's the difference between an android that knows it is an android, and a human? Are there humans who want cybernetic enhancements?

-When there can be full automation in a home, why on earth would people want a human-like servant? what does that say about people and their desire to subjugate one another or a desire for obedience and control?

-The whole game is a type of paradox. You're controlling an android whose goal is to be free of human control, and the game could at one point actually address this by having the characters behave in ways directly contrary to the choices you select, or segments where the characters start moving on their own and you're only a passive observer, maybe the characters even give subtle hints like "I just felt like I've been controlled, sometimes I feel free, but other times its like I'm being watched and making choices that aren't my own" that would be phenomenal.

I think people shouldn't be so quick to write off this game. It can be so much more than "slavery and civil rights, except robots instead of black people". It could hold a mirror to the concept of human control, and choices in video games. Often you're not even really given true choice in a videogame. You're usually picking from a set of options that make minor changes in the story. You can't make the decision to choose no option and then sit back and watch as the game adjusts. Either you make a canned choice or the story doesn't progress. This can be one of the rare games where you have FULL choice

 

[Jawbreaker]

Isn't that basically an ad in the game? Yea it's corny and blunt, but so are real life ad slogans.

That was my take on it. I don't really see the issue.

 

[MrCunningham]

Eh... this is going to be an inevitable thing the moment that we have android's that gain conciseness.

 

[bman94]

It's not that deep fam

 

[Herr Starr]

Isn't that basically an ad in the game? Yea it's corny and blunt, but so are real life ad slogans.

Yes it's an in-game ad, and it's about as subtle as a real-life clothing line going "we work our cheap Chinese laborers to death so you can get our stuff cheaper". It just reeks of David Cage wanting to deliver a message but realizing that the only tool of delivery at his disposal is a jackhammer.

 

[ugly]

I think jumping straight for "this is fucked" is jumping the gun. Let the game exist first so we can investigate it's intentions

It's not that deep fam

Also this

 

[Kinyou]

That's where a lot of my fears lie. A bunch of posters are giving me shit because you see robots of colour in the trailer, but unless their stories are told, they're just window dressing. I will fully accept that I didn't realize that one of the protagonists was based on a real person who is mixed race however.

Isn't that fear contradicted by you already playing as a black robot? Markus is not window dressing

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Yes it's an in-game ad, and it's about as subtle as a real-life clothing line going "we work our cheap Chinese laborers to death so you can get our stuff cheaper". It just reeks of David Cage wanting to deliver a message but realizing that the only tool of delivery at his disposal is a jackhammer.

Only if you see then as people, surely. The basis for the plot to even work is that, based on their interactions with earlier, more primitive models, most humans don't.

 

[LaserHawk]

I have no interest in this game and no faith in its capacity for competent storytelling. (No prior experience with David Cage; just saying this from what was shown.)

That said, in its defence: if servile robots were conspicuously visible reminders of real-world historical oppression, there wouldn't be as much of a market for servile robots. The appeal of robot labour is the labour, not the fetish of targeted oppression (unless we're talking about sex dolls, which aren't exactly Roombas; they're an edge case where the fetish is actually the selling point). Robot labour exists to disguise the discomfort of ownership and shove it under the rug, in the same way that drone warfare disguises the human cost of war.

If you were a private firm turning out a line of autonomous humanoid servants, you would be absolutely mad to do anything to set off your consumers' buried moral guilt. You would quite specifically create robots that, out of prejudice or whatever else, the owners are more inclined to treat as equal partners and employees rather than an unjustly bound, potentially revolutionary threat.

Good point.

This is precisely why, when a corporation one day makes robot servants for us, they absolutely will not make them very human-looking... for reasons you mentioned as well as uncanny valley problems. We won't be as guilt-ridden to make them work, and nobody would be so stupid as to program them with emotions that would allow them to resent their servitude.

I just can't trust this game to turn out well. The topic is so worn out in the sci-fi genre and I don't expect David Cage to handle it better than Isaac Asimov.... or even the movie I Robot, for that matter.

 

[mindsale]

I'm personally a little irked that a story about mass-produced machinery in Detroit doesn't star a talking Ford Model T named Fordy.

That out of the way, how is this analogous to one particular form of slavery compared with another?

There're contemporary sex slaves; borderline slave labor at plants such as FoxCon; slavery in mid-African nations rich in rare earth minerals... Historically you've also got Jews, Greeks, and Slavic slaves, from which the term originates.

I'm pretty sure all of those subjugated by systems of oppression would like to be free of bondage.

Are you saying it's particularly resonant of the American system of slavery? Why?

 

[NewDust]

Thread backfire or not, this thread has me actually thinking about (perceived) ethnicity of androids.

 

[Herr Starr]

Only if you see then as people, surely. The basis for the plot to even work is that, based on their interactions with earlier, more primitive models, most humans don't.

I would buy that argument if the ad said "it" instead of "her". It's the fact that the ad itself presents the androids as people that creates the first disconnect for me, and it just escalates from there the more I think about it.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Isn't that fear contradicted by you already playing as a black robot? Markus is not window dressing

As I had said in previous posts; this was a genuine mistake on my part. Markus looked ambiguous to me and I wasn't aware that he was based on a real person of mixed race

 

[Death Penalty]

Only if you see then as people, surely. The basis for the plot to even work is that, based on their interactions with earlier, more primitive models, most humans don't.

I agree, I've definitely seen ads for appliances directing me to kick back while the appliance does all the work. This seems pretty in line with that.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Good point.

This is precisely why, when a corporation one day makes robot servants for us, they absolutely will not make them very human-looking... for reasons you mentioned as well as uncanny valley problems. We won't be as guilt-ridden to make them work, and nobody would be so stupid as to program them with emotions that would allow them to resent their servitude.

I just can't trust this game to turn out well. The topic is so worn out in the sci-fi genre and I don't expect David Cage to handle it better than Isaac Asimov.... or even the movie I Robot, for that matter.

You wouldn't have to program emotions. If you add enough intelligence, some moral rules and machine learning, the idea is that they will probably just come naturally at some point.

I would buy that argument if the ad said "it" instead of "her". It's the fact that the ad itself presents the androids as people that creates the first disconnect for me, and it just escalates from there the more I think about it.

I see your point, but I think it still works. It calls the robot "her", but I take it a bit ironically. I could definitely see an ad bureau come up with that slogan.

 

[Kinyou]

As I had said in previous posts; this was a genuine mistake on my part. Markus looked ambiguous to me and I wasn't aware that he was based on a real person of mixed race

So problem solved then?

 

[bitbydeath]

Yes it's an in-game ad, and it's about as subtle as a real-life clothing line going "we work our cheap Chinese laborers to death so you can get our stuff cheaper". It just reeks of David Cage wanting to deliver a message but realizing that the only tool of delivery at his disposal is a jackhammer.

Sure but change out "Chinese Laborers" with "machines"... you do know they're not human right?

 

[In-Famous]

Personally I think the game is a narrative goldmine of potential.

-Say you(in the role of the protagonist) want to destroy the production of new androids, what then happens to the people who were employed specifically to design and build androids and don't really know how to do anything else? I don't think its a coincidence that they chose Detroit--a city that has been plagued by economic problems to be the setting of this game. After auto manufacturing went downhill, so did Detroit. In this game, there's a second chance for the city to rise again. Would you be the person that sends it right back into that spiral of inequality?

-The subtitle is "become human" what does it mean to be human exactly? what's the difference between an android that knows it is an android, and a human? Are there humans who want cybernetic enhancements?

-When there can be full automation in a home, why on earth would people want a human-like servant? what does that say about people and their desire to subjugate one another or a desire for obedience and control?

-The whole game is a type of paradox. You're controlling an android whose goal is to be free of human control, and the game could at one point actually address this by having the characters behave in ways directly contrary to the choices you select, or segments where the characters start moving on their own and you're only a passive observer, maybe the characters even give subtle hints like "I just felt like I've been controlled, sometimes I feel free, but other times its like I'm being watched and making choices that aren't my own" that would be phenomenal.

I think people shouldn't be so quick to write off this game. It can be so much more than "slavery and civil rights, except robots instead of black people". It could hold a mirror to the concept of human control, and choices in video games. Often you're not even really given true choice in a videogame. You're usually picking from a set of options that make minor changes in the story. You can't make the decision to choose no option and then sit back and watch as the game adjusts. Either you make a canned choice or the story doesn't progress. This can be one of the rare games where you have FULL choice

I completely agree with this, the game has some real potential to tell a really moving narrative and good on them for trying to approach a sensitive project hopefully it works out alright.

QDs Heavy Rain was great imo and Beyond was so so, but I'll definitely try this game when it comes out, whens that again?

 

[Shiggy]

Yes it's an in-game ad, and it's about as subtle as a real-life clothing line going "we work our cheap Chinese laborers to death so you can get our stuff cheaper". It just reeks of David Cage wanting to deliver a message but realizing that the only tool of delivery at his disposal is a jackhammer.

That analogy doesn't make any sense. The Chinese labourers aren't the product you are buying, whereas these androids you buy are. Having a slogan like "hard work for her, free time for you" is something that could very well appear in reality if there were such androids available.

 

[Herr Starr]

Sure but change out "Chinese Laborers" with "facility hardware"

Then it would be more subtle, but that's not what they did here. I'm not talking about hypotheticals here, I'm referring to Quantic Dreams' actual marketing campaign. This picture was how they first introduced the basic concepts of the story to us, and it's anything but subtle. You may argue about the value of the message itself, but this is specifically about the delivery of the marketing towards us, the players. I expect more from a company that specializes on storytelling in games.

 

[LaserHawk]

You wouldn't have to program emotions. If you add enough intelligence, some moral rules and machine learning, the idea is that they will probably just come naturally at some point.

I see your point, but I think it still works. It calls the robot "her", but I take it a bit ironically. I could definitely see an ad bureau come up with that slogan.

I suppose that's true if you don't set limitations when creating the androids--or if androids are able to bypass those limitations.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I thought Cage hired actual writers for this one.

Cage still worked on the story for the game, it's just that this will be the first game from QD where the story isn't solely written by him. Several writers were brought in to contribute to it.

 

[Plum]

I wonder what OP thinks of Blade Runner

EDIT: To add some more thoughts, analogies like this are there to remove explicit historical context, as long as the message isn't removed I can't see the issue. Blade Runner is an apt representation of subjugation in much the same way La Haine or Twelve Years a Slave are. Whilst I don't have much hope for this being that well written as long as it can get jusg one more person to empathize with the shit happening today it's fine by me.

 

[Death Penalty]

Then it would be more subtle, but that's not what they did here. I'm not talking about hypotheticals here, I'm referring to Quantic Dreams' actual marketing campaign. This picture was how they first introduced the basic concepts of the story to us, and it's anything but subtle. You may argue about the value of the message itself, but this is specifically about the delivery of the marketing towards us, the players. I expect more from a company that specializes on storytelling in games.

I don't see it as so far-fetched that they would personify the android into a friendly, marketable "her" rather than an it, especially if their market is already familiar with and receptive to the concept of android servitors.

 

[bitbydeath]

Then it would be more subtle, but that's not what they did here. I'm not talking about hypotheticals here, I'm referring to Quantic Dreams' actual marketing campaign. This picture was how they first introduced the basic concepts of the story to us, and it's anything but subtle. You may argue about the value of the message itself, but this is specifically about the delivery of the marketing towards us, the players. I expect more from a company that specializes on storytelling in games.

The fact they're androids was pretty well spelt out in the original trailer as well so not sure where you're going with it.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

I suppose that's true if you don't set limitations when creating the androids--or if androids are able to bypass those limitations.

How would you write a line of code to prevent emotions? That's why machine learning is so dangerous, given enough time and processing power, if you don't restrict the input data. You can never be quite sure what a robot will learn when it's actually out in the wild, yet it's necessary for it to learn to perform a complicated function.

 

[PBalfredo]

I'm personally a little irked that a story about mass-produced machinery in Detroit doesn't star a talking Ford Model T named Fordy.

That out of the way, how is this analogous to one particular form of slavery compared with another?

There're contemporary sex slaves; borderline slave labor at plants such as FoxCon; slavery in mid-African nations rich in rare earth minerals... Historically you've also got Jews, Greeks, and Slavic slaves, from which the term originates.

I'm pretty sure all of those subjugated by systems of oppression would like to be free of bondage.

Are you saying it's particularly resonant of the American system of slavery? Why?

While you're right that there are many forms of slavery in the world and history, David Cage isn't exactly subtle about where he draws his inspiration...

The first shot of the trailer was this brother singing negro spirituals

 

[Plum]

Cage still worked on the story for the game, it's just that this will be the first game from QD where the story isn't solely written by him. Several writers were brought in to contribute to it.

Hopefully one went "No, Cage, we can't have the Androids merge together like the Power Rangers." Despite this having the subtlety of a jackhammer I do hope it doesn't devolve to action schlock like every other one of his games.

 

[pagrab]

I don't see it as an inherent problem. You could argue that it may even be more impactful this way. For obvious, historical reasons we do not see white people as oppressed so it is even more jarring. It could give a powerful message that racism is arbitrary and can be turned towards anyone.

 

[Lime]

As I had said in previous posts; this was a genuine mistake on my part. Markus looked ambiguous to me and I wasn't aware that he was based on a real person of mixed race

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5unl8XGrjNY

(this 5 minute speech will most likely be a million times better than whatever themes and messages Quantic Dream will have about oppression)

 

[Funyarinpa]

I think that they could use oppressed white androids to "turn the tables" on ignorant white people, so to speak- show them what people of color are going through by providing characters with an appearance they can relate to.

That doesn't seem to be the case, regardless.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

So problem solved then?

Problem band aided, maybe.

I still dislike the the idea of a slavery and oppression narrative that takes place in Detroit while ignoring a racial lens, since I can't help but feel the setting was meant to evoke the race riots in Detroit's history. So far, nothing we've seen of Detroit seems like it tackles those issues.

 

[Herr Starr]

I don't see it as so far-fetched that they would personify the android into a friendly, marketable "her" rather than an it, especially if their market is already familiar with and receptive to the concept of android servitors.

You are completely missing the point of why I even posted the picture in the first place, steering the discussion in a completely different direction. My point is that this is not a subtle way to convey story or messages to the audience. You may disagree, and different people will desire different degrees of subtlety and heavy-handedness in their stories, but this is what it is. Look at Blade Runner for an example of how this kind of storytelling conflict can be communicated to the audience without treating them like children in the process. That David Cage put that fictional ad in the first promo campaign for the game reveals that he doesn't trust that his audience will understand his message, even if it's one that has been told a million times before in sci-fi. It is a worrying sign of how he'll handle the rest of the story in the full game. That is my point. How the fictional people in that setting perceive that ad is not relevant.

 

[crimilde]

OP pliz.

It seems to me Detroit's society has moved beyond color/race and is discriminating based on whether people are humans or machines. Ghost in the Shell and all that. Not as subtle but still.

 

[Stop It]

What a time to be alive - people asking for ethnic robots.

To your point, different ethnic robots are present in the game. you just seem misinformed.

To your first bit, what? Have you not watched Humans, or Ex Machina?

Anyway, although not the most Subtle of writers, I don't think Cage is going to fall for the all androids are white trope of old.

Also again, this subject isn't exactly uncommon and likely done far better recently by TV and film but hey the game deserves a chance.

 

[ActWan]

I think that they could use oppressed white androids to "turn the tables" on ignorant white people, so to speak- show them what people of color are going through by providing characters with an appearance they can relate to.

That doesn't seem to be the case, regardless.

What about Kara?

 

[BocoDragon]

Ha. When I saw the black robot in the trailer, I thought "this could be problematic". Now someone looks at the white robots and says that's problematic. Irony.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Problem band aided, maybe.

I still dislike the the idea of a slavery and oppression narrative that takes place in Detroit while ignoring a racial lens, since I can't help but feel the setting was meant to evoke the race riots in Detroit's history. So far, nothing we've seen of Detroit seems like it tackles those issues.

Please. The paralleles are clearly there, it's just not exclusively a story about historical oppression:

The first shot of the trailer was this brother singing negro spirituals

 

[Mauddib]

I could see them thinking (them being Sony execs and possibly Cage himself) that showing just black robots would have exposed them to too much negative backlash. From parents and advocacy group misinterpreting the point of the game, to dumbass racist kids exploiting the setting and make gross videos out of it to share online, that would have resulted in way too much controversy. With white slaves you can get away with it.

 

[KillLaCam]

Even if it is. This is a common situation in thing involving AI/Androids. People just wanna be offended.

 

[Acquiescence]

You really did your homework OP.

 

[Tiberius]

Even if it is. This is a common situation in thing involving AI/Androids. People just wanna be offended.

People who want to be offended are going to be offended

 

[Stilton Disco]

Making the concept of slavery linked purely to one race is both incredibly American centric and I'd argue showing an inerrant racial biase in the the mind of anyone that instantly thinks it.

Sure, being set in America, there are obvious analogues to the slavery that is most commonly associated with that land, and the game is definitely playing on those themes, but slavery is a universal problem throughout all our histories that still exists today and makes no distinction over the colour of anyone's skin.

 

[whyreggielie]

Was he black? He was definitely darker that the other two protagonists, but it seemed ambiguous to me at best.

Also, even if he is, I'm not sure I would feel that much better since it'll be the only black protagonist being the angry and violent one. Even if those feelings are justified

Kinda sounds like there is no satisfying you either way.

 

[Permanently A]

As I had said in previous posts; this was a genuine mistake on my part. Markus looked ambiguous to me and I wasn't aware that he was based on a real person of mixed race

So what's the point of this thread currently? Is your grievance with the game addressed?

Kinda sounds like there is no satisfying you either way.

He's wrong about that, every character has pacifist/violent options.

 

[Death Penalty]

You are completely missing the point of why I even posted the picture in the first place, steering the discussion in a completely different direction. My point is that this is not a subtle way to convey story or messages to the audience. You may disagree, and different people will desire different degrees of subtlety and heavy-handedness in their stories, but this is what it is. Look at Blade Runner for an example of how this kind of storytelling conflict can be communicated to the audience without treating them like children in the process. That David Cage put that fictional ad in the first promo campaign for the game reveals that he doesn't trust that his audience will understand his message, even if it's one that has been told a million times before in sci-fi. It is a worrying sign of how he'll handle the rest of the story in the full game. That is my point. How the fictional people in that setting perceive that ad is not relevant.

I guess what I was trying to point out is that the ad feels natural and in no way out of place, even a nice parallel to our current commercialized culture. Like, I definitely see signs like this for big hardware releases or other such products on a daily basis. If anything, incorporating a product launch like this makes it feel more real to me. It seems like you'd like it omitted for the sake of "subtlety" even if it is a natural fit for the world, and that strikes me as a bit odd. I just don't find its inclusion as damning as you do I guess, and I don't think imagery like this and subtlety are mutually exclusive.

This is coming from someone who sincerely doubts Cage's studio has the narrative chops to be subtle, mind, I just think calling out this particular scene so harshly is pretty nitpicky.

 

[SomTervo]

OP it sounds like you didn't watch the E3 content and are ignoring what everyone is telling you about the game.

Although yes it would be annoying if black androids are just window dressing. We can't know that until release. Return to the issue then.

Spoiler

Outside the OP did not watch the trailer completely, is white/black thing still an issue? Why?

lol

Careful junior!

 

[Boss Mog]

I don't really get the thread since the protag is a black android and the androids shown in the trailer seem to be pretty diverse. Also OP's statements suggest he possesses a narrow vision of slavery, limited to black slaves in America. Slavery was around long before America was even a country and there were plenty of slaves of all races who were enslaved far longer than blacks in America and it's wrong to not acknowledge them as well when talking about slavery.

The question I have surrounding this game is "As a human playing this game, why would I want to side with robots over mankind?"