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[Skinpop]

I find it profoundly insulting when white people tell me the only way they can empathize is if they imagine me as a fucking elf or something.

you are profoundly insulted by imagining things.. or did anyone actually say this?
Do you think allegories are a bad thing?

 

[Vintage]

It would be pretty strange to portray a future where people specifically used only black androids as slaves.

 

[j0nnyboy]

Oh my god.... Seriously?

 

[Permanently A]

The question I have surrounding this game is "As a human playing this game, why would I want to side with robots over mankind?"

Because I think the point is that the robots are essentially synthetic humans with human desires, and if they look, act and feel human, it would be wrong to deny them human rights.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

There were robots of all colours in that demo no?.

Secondary characters with dead eyes who follow their white savior. Token diversity if you ask me.

 

[KNT-Zero]

No. Slavery in this game doesn't have to relate to the actual slavery that existed in real life. Then again, David Cage can be a bit too much. So expect anything.

 

[TatteredHat]

This same thread would exist in a different form if Detroit was a story of slavery with black robots.

 

[crimilde]

Secondary characters with dead eyes who follow their white savior. Token diversity if you ask me.

Only Markus isn't white.

 

[Permanently A]

Secondary characters with dead eyes who follow their white savior. Token diversity if you ask me.

How is markus a secondary character?

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Secondary characters with dead eyes who follow their white savior. Token diversity if you ask me.

You mean their black savior.

 

[Herr Starr]

But that's the core of the problem. Obviously I can't speak for every other minority, but I find it profoundly insulting when white people tell me the only way they can empathize is if they imagine me as a fucking elf or something.

If it's the only way they can emphatize then that is a very real problem, but you need to keep in mind that sci-fi has been about putting real-world situations into a different perspective since the start. Almost all sci-fi stories take the familiar and make it fantastic in order to make us look at it in a new light. It's core to the genre and not something you should feel insulted by. It can be done in an insulting way, but in my experience that's usually not the case.

 

[Necro900]

Judging by the early promo material for the game, I don't have high hopes. Detroit seems like it'll be anything but subtle. It's something that is preventing me from getting hyped for this game, regardless of how much I love Heavy Rain and enjoyed Beyond Two Souls.

It was this image that really began to worry me. Notice the text in the upper right. This is not subtle storytelling.

What? Why would it be subtle? We're talking about a dystopian society in which people have no issue basically buying and exploiting androids that look and act like their fellow human beings. It's obvious the de-humanization of such "products" is strong enough to warrant these "outrageous" (for us) ads. It helps the player identify with the protagonist who wants to break the cycle and stop this madness.

Heck, Cage could've even chosen to have exclusively female androids and make an even bigger and heavier statement about what the world could become in the wrong hands. The heightened perception of "this is wrong, this society is fucked" is what pushes the settings of dystopian stories.

Also, OP, you said you followed the game ever since the beginning and apparently didn't know you can play a pacifist run and that the game has a really diverse cast. Ok, I guess.

I sometimes don't understand this place.

Secondary characters with dead eyes who follow their white savior. Token diversity if you ask me.

Holy shit. I'm outta here.

 

[giancarlo123x]

Secondary characters with dead eyes who follow their white savior. Token diversity if you ask me.

What trailer did you watch?

 

[NewDust]

Poor Markus, people telling him what he is an is not...

 

[lucebuce12]

What trailer did you watch?

Clearly none of them.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

I would buy that argument if the ad said "it" instead of "her". It's the fact that the ad itself presents the androids as people that creates the first disconnect for me, and it just escalates from there the more I think about it.

I'd assume having sex with it is still a taboo.

 

[TsuWave]

Jesse Williams, the protagonist, is black and an activist very much involved/fighting for the betterment of black communities in real life.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

you are profoundly insulted by imagining things.. or did anyone actually say this?
Do you think allegories are a bad thing?

Allegories are fine. The problem is one racial minorities often find in that many of our stories only ever seem to be told when they are made more palateble to white audiences, often by making the subject of oppression just white people people with funny ears or horns on their heads.

Also, oftentimes those allegories are just bad. Stuff like X-Men is often seen as being an allegory about race and minorities, but that only works if you believe minorities are inherently more capable of being dangerous than other people

 

[Pantz]

We're all the same

...on the inside.

 

[ahkdigital]

So I've been having very mixed feelings about Detroit: Become Human, and the most recent E3 trailer hasn't done anything to calm my discomfort.

As someone who had been at least somewhat following the development of the Detroit since the very first Kara tech demo all those years ago, I had always been intrigued by the world and aesthetic the game gestured towards.

But as the characters and worlds became more crystallized over the past couple years, I'm starting to feel very uncomfortable about this game.

David Cage is very clearly leaning on real struggles of slavery and oppression, but rather than telling the story through the lens of people who are oppressed and enslaved in 2017, we're getting a story with robots. Not only that, but all three playable characters are all white looking robots, two of which are male.

It just comes off as tone deaf to me. In a post gamergate, BLM and Occupy world, where some of the highest seats of American political power are held by self labeled misogynists and white nationalists, that Detroit believes it can only tell it's story of an oppressed class of people by putting us in the shoes of white guys.

A few points for discussion:

- Slavery did not only happen in America (or the then forming America). It's still happening. White (along with other colors and nationalities) slavery existed, exists, and includes things like human trafficking and sexual slavery.

- I'm sure the counter point to this would be that it is set in Detroit and thus should be tuned to American history (even though I'm sure sexual slavery is happening in America, as well) but for argument's sake, the "lens of people who are oppressed and enslaved in 2017" may not be just what you think it is.

- Everyone can be discriminated against. Everyone. If you put a white person in a community of, predominantly, another ethnicity, that person will probably be oppressed and excluded in some shape or form.

- Androids are treated as objects (usually): much like how people are when they are reduced to slaves, mere outlets for sexual pleasure, etc. That can happen to any ethnicity.

- The realization of whitewashing in media is important and something to be corrected - at the same time, one has to be careful to not snap immediately to the other extreme and see everything as a foul. That goes for anybody including myself. It seems prudent to get the author's take.

 

[llien]

I would argue that having black enslaved Androids would have been much, much worse from a "message" standpoint.

Indeed. And probably so would be having more women androids available.

 

[Slammin_Hammon]

Out of curiosity what would be your solution op? What would have to change for you to not feel uncomfortable?

 

[Roufianos]

Wtf are you even on about?

 

[Death Penalty]

Allegories are fine. The problem is one racial minorities often find in that many of our stories only ever seem to be told when they are made more palateble to white audiences, often by making the subject of oppression just white people people with funny ears or horns on their heads.

Also, oftentimes those allegories are just bad. Stuff like X-Men is often seen as being an allegory about race and minorities, but that only works if you believe minorities are inherently more capable of being dangerous than other people

Often, imaginary stories are tackling the concept of bigotry and equality rather than a specific case, which is why fantasy stand-ins are useful. For instance, blacks aren't the only ones facing unfortunate hatred, even in my home country, and bigotry is bad in pretty much every case. You can make points about it as a whole and shine a light on a variety of situations using a fantasy demographic that parallels no real demographic.

If you really want to stir shit on this game, you should go that second direction with it and call out why it's a bad analogy rather than focusing on the largely inclusive and irrelevant artificial race of these androids. You're dead on about the X-Men being a poor stand-in when most mutants are inherently dangerous; apply this principle then to androids. You could make a point for instance that they're utilizing a questionably sentient stand-in for a real world parallel to oppressed minorities. They can pass the Turing test, sure, but we can't know that these machines are truly sentient, just that they're really good at seeming like it. The fact that the androids are unliving things and their humanity could be validly argued against makes them almost as poor as choice as mutants for representing minorities, if you ask me.

 

[Diprosalic]

It isn't inherently 'fucked' - just need to hope that Quantic Dream and David Cage have some subtly and grace in handling the topic.

You expect a lot from a writer that makes Kojima look like a genius.

 

[Maddrical]

This is my favourite thread to come out of E3 so far.

Also why is it necessarily a bad thing if a fictional story makes you uncomfortable? I would like a game like this to press some controversial issues, so long as it does it well.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

you are profoundly insulted by imagining things.. or did anyone actually say this?
Do you think allegories are a bad thing?

It's only bad when people sympathize more with an indigenous alien race being threatened by a military corporation (Avatar) than actual Native Americans being threatened by a U.S. government. Some people only want to see oppressions and struggles through entertainment.

 

[ActWan]

Also why is it necessarily a bad thing if a fictional story makes you uncomfortable? I would like a game like this to press some controversial issues, so long as it does it well.

This +1000.
It's like the Horizon thread not long ago that complained about racist characters in the game using racist slurs. Just absurd to me that people will complain about these stuff.

 

[N7.Angel]

is this a joke thread or what ?

 

[Metalmarc]

Stupid thread is stupid, lock it up

 

[Dazza]

I don't really get the thread since the protag is a black android and the androids shown in the trailer seem to be pretty diverse. Also OP's statements suggest he possesses a narrow vision of slavery, limited to black slaves in America. Slavery was around long before America was even a country and there were plenty of slaves of all races who were enslaved far longer than blacks in America and it's wrong to not acknowledge them as well when talking about slavery.

The question I have surrounding this game is "As a human playing this game, why would I want to side with robots over mankind?"

The same reason why someone whom isn't part of the oppressed group would side with that oppressed group. Or similar to animal rights, environmental groups etc

 

[dreamlongdead]

OP needs his vision checked.

 

[truestatic]

I would buy that argument if the ad said "it" instead of "her". It's the fact that the ad itself presents the androids as people that creates the first disconnect for me, and it just escalates from there the more I think about it.

Sure it does. I'll refer to Siri with feminine pronouns. The android in the display is far more human than a clearly robotic voice. She looks, talks, dresses, moves like a woman. You speak to her like you would a person - albeit one without rights. Unless they've changed things from the Kara trailer, you can use her as a sexual partner. Referring to her as 'it' would probably actually be more uncomfortable for most people. These are intentionally very human in appearance. Of course they call it 'her.'

 

[I Stalk Alone]

op dug through to agartha yet?

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I think it's perfectly fine to have a thread like this considering we are talking about David Cage here. Almost all of his games don't land perfectly.

I don't think a lot of people trust him to write compelling shit.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

A few points for discussion:

- Slavery did not only happen in America (or the then forming America). It's still happening. White (along with other colors and nationalities) slavery existed, exists, and includes things like human trafficking and sexual slavery.

- I'm sure the counter point to this would be that it is set in Detroit and thus should be tuned to American history (even though I'm sure sexual slavery is happening in America, as well) but for argument's sake, the "lens of people who are oppressed and enslaved in 2017" may not be just what you think it is.

- Everyone can be discriminated against. Everyone. If you put a white person in a community of, predominantly, another ethnicity, that person will probably be oppressed and excluded in some shape or form.

- Androids are treated as objects (usually): much like how people are when they are reduced to slaves, mere outlets for sexual pleasure, etc. That can happen to any ethnicity.

- The realization of whitewashing in media is important and something to be corrected - at the same time, one has to be careful to not snap immediately to the other extreme and see everything as a foul. That goes for anybody including myself. It seems prudent to get the author's take.

Firstly, I appreciate that you're actually engaging with my points. I had gotten rather tired with the 'lol offended' posts.

Regarding your arguments, yes, you are correct, slavery can and does happen everywhere and to all people. One of my earlier posts had me referring to modern slavery in places like the US, Australia and the Middle East.

And yes, I appreciate that you brought up the obvious counterargument that Detroit is specifically American, but I don't think you do enough to refute that point. DBH very specifically gestures to a place and history where the predominant racial tension is between black and white people.

If the game was set in vague Future City, then I think it's fair to criticise me for taking an US centric view. But Detroit has a very defined locality, whose history it gestures to (eg. some posters have brought up the black android singing in one of the trailers). The US lens is not just encourage, but in my opinion, demanded by Quantic Dream.

Out of curiosity what would be your solution op? What would have to change for you to not feel uncomfortable?

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure that part out. Detroit feels wrong to me on a pretty gut level, and this thread was part of my attempt to think it through and better articulate it. A lived experience of racism and race relations tells me this game is fucking it up, but translating years of unwritten feelings and experiences and explaining how they relate to a game is not an easy task for someone whose chief writing experience is technical rather than sociological in nature.

 

[rockman zx]

I think it's perfectly fine to have a thread like this considering we are talking about David Cage here. Almost all of his games don't land perfectly.

I don't think a lot of people trust him to write compelling shit.

No is not fine, open a thread like this when the game is out and you can judge the content and the writing of game.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

I think it's perfectly fine to have a thread like this considering we are talking about David Cage here. Almost all of his games don't land perfectly.

I don't think a lot of people trust him to write compelling shit.

Maybe if there was any indication of the problems the OP is talking about in the material released so far, but there isn't.

 

[Lime]

I think it's perfectly fine to have a thread like this considering we are talking about David Cage here. Almost all of his games don't land perfectly.

I don't think a lot of people trust him to write compelling shit.

Beyond Two Souls attest to this. Rape as a plot device, white american girl invading & shooting Somalians for dumb reasons, romancing an abusive and deceitful whtie dude, spiritual native americans who live in tipis (which the navajo didn't), and that's just off the top of my head.

There's also the black mechanic in Heavy Rain that was pretty dumb as well.

So yeah, no, I don't think Cage and his writers are up to task of making an allegory of slavery and oppression via androids.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure that part out. Detroit feels wrong to me on a pretty gut level, and this thread was part of my attempt to think it through and better articulate it. A lived experience of racism and race relations tells me this game is fucking it up, but translating years of unwritten feelings and experiences and explaining how they relate to a game is not an easy task for someone whose chief writing experience is technical rather than sociological in nature.

It sounds like you have some very vaguely defined, personal problems with having a game about enslavement set in Detroit. I think it will be hard for most people to emphasise with that, if you can't explain it more clearly.

 

[stargateheaven]

The idea of slavery has been around forever and not strictly certain ones you're relating it to.

This is just one case of slavery on androids. Not "white robots"
Even if they were white robots it wouldnt be a problem.

 

[llien]

It's only bad when people sympathize more with an indigenous alien race being threatened by a military corporation (Avatar) than actual Native Americans being threatened by a U.S. government. Some people only want to see oppressions and struggles through entertainment.

After seeing Avatar I chatted to a colleague american (who left US for Europe decades ago, but is still a citizen) about it. I told him that I saw... native Americans/Australians who manage to fight back and win. He felt quite uncomfortable.

I don't follow you on the last statement. Why would anyone want to see something bad? People surely want to be entertained more than they want to get stress from seeing shitty parts of this world, how could you blame them for that?

 

[Storm Prelude]

Apart from the fact that OP doesn't seem to be aware of any of the trailer shown, I really think that we shall focus on other kind of problems and stop being potentially triggered by ANYTHING.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

No is not fine, open a thread like this when the game is out and you can judge the content and the writing of game.

I think it's ok to judge this game based on Cage's past work. Just like you judge a movie based on a director's past work.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I thought the guy playing Markus was mixed race? At least, I certainly assumed that when I saw him in Cabin in the Woods.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

So I've been having very mixed feelings about Detroit: Become Human, and the most recent E3 trailer hasn't done anything to calm my discomfort.

As someone who had been at least somewhat following the development of the Detroit since the very first Kara tech demo all those years ago, I had always been intrigued by the world and aesthetic the game gestured towards.

But as the characters and worlds became more crystallized over the past couple years, I'm starting to feel very uncomfortable about this game.

David Cage is very clearly leaning on real struggles of slavery and oppression, but rather than telling the story through the lens of people who are oppressed and enslaved in 2017, we're getting a story with robots. Not only that, but all three playable characters are all white looking robots, two of which are male.

It just comes off as tone deaf to me. In a post gamergate, BLM and Occupy world, where some of the highest seats of American political power are held by self labeled misogynists and white nationalists, that Detroit believes it can only tell it's story of an oppressed class of people by putting us in the shoes of white guys.

Hold up... you can't see why having black robots being enslaved in the game would have caused a shitstorm of biblical proportions?!?

I'm baffled by your position on this, honestly...

 

[Slammin_Hammon]

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure that part out. Detroit feels wrong to me on a pretty gut level, and this thread was part of my attempt to think it through and better articulate it. A lived experience of racism and race relations tells me this game is fucking it up, but translating years of unwritten feelings and experiences and explaining how they relate to a game is not an easy task for someone whose chief writing experience is technical rather than sociological in nature.

Fair enough. With the subject matter being what it is I can imagine personal experiences could easily color one's opinion. Do you think it's mainly the setting of Detroit that's the biggest hang-up, or do you share the same gripes with other science fiction properties where androids and the like are used essentially as slaves? Either way I'll be interested to see how would feel after release and the story is known and whatnot.

 

[Slaythe]

You expect a lot from a writer that makes Kojima look like a genius.

After the words and deeds debacle, we can safely place Kojima at the bottom.

Cage might have his flaws, but his intent is not obnoxious.

 

[Whompa02]

Isn't the entire point of Kara, or any other Robot in this game, is for the player to not judge them for being what they are or how they look on the outside?

 

[UnluckyKate]

Is detroit built upon the Kara tech demo? Eh?

Kara is one of the protag in the game, expanding on the storytelling from her tech demo