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[Monocle]

Having the dickhead of the film be a brown kid isn't appealing. I'm kind of sick of brown folk being depicted as villains in all hollywood movies. We see that shit everyday and it makes our children hated in school.

A jerk in a super diverse movie isn't white, and rather than focus on the exceptional diversity you're going to try to insinuate that the movie is blindly following a racist trend?

????????????

WARNING: there is also a black villain in this film. (Let's ignore how the most violent and murderous person in Homecoming is a white man, because this doesn't fit the disingenuous argument we're trying to craft here.)

 

[ArtHands]

I think the vlog was sufficient enough to show all the relevant information, so its rather standalone here. most of the references are rather thrownaway, like the Avengers masks, Peter imitating Thor or Happy brief mention about the Hulkbuster. are these really making people feel as if they missing something crucial for not watching any prior MCU movies?

 

[PR_rambo]

There are plenty of brown kids that are assholes. I am a brown kid, I knew my fair share, so Flash being ethnic doesn't bother me especially since there's diversity all over Peter's group of friends.

 

[jon bones]

come on spider-man

come on spider-man...

COME ON SPIDER-MAN!!!

There are plenty of brown kids that are assholes. I am a brown kid, I knew my fair share, so Flash being ethnic doesn't bother me especially since there's diversity all over Peter's group of friends.

50% of the brown kids i went to high school with were just like Flash - right down to dad's expensive car, the dj equipment and 'studious know it all'

 

[Monocle]

come on spider-man

come on spider-man...

COME ON SPIDER-MAN!!!

;___;

Feels, I had them.

 

[number11]

Peter yelling for help after the warehouse collapsed was heartbreaking.

Also, the final line was spectacular.

We've seen this line done a million times... but it still got me. Her delivery is what made it extra hilarious.

 

[BocoDragon]

But having stuff that first appeared in other films is not a problem. It doesn't stop it from being a "real film". This is a real Spiderman movie, with the best adaptation of the character on film yet. The only difference is that it takes place in a New York with other superheroes that came before him, and that informs his character. There is no functional difference between the Avengers in this movie and the wrestlers from the first Raimi movie, except that more people know the Avengers.

You recognizing stuff from other stories in there does not mean it's not a standalone movie, because it's story is standalone with a beginning, middle, and end, with no need for supplemental material from past movies. The issue here is that you are conflating Spider-Man 1, 2, and TDK as "movies that did not have characters from other comic books" with "good/real movies".

It's not existing within continuity and having characters cross over, per se, that denies "real films".

It's that MCU movies have boundaries on what is possible. It has an established tone that must be adhered to. They have a story continuity that must be adhered to. They have a pre-existing world that sets limits on the kinds of stories that are acceptable. The producers and story group are the gods in this world, and they want specific types of stories that fit.

This is not a setup that allows auteurs to create completely unique visions in. Nolan's Batman would not fit in this universe at all, so films like that could never happen here (well because it's DC! But just entertain my point). Straight from Nolan's mouth, his Batman exists in a world where other superheroes don't. Not allowed here.

I know people justify that Winter Soldier is political thriller. Dr. Strange is magical fantasy. Ant-man is 60s style sci-fi. But honestly, that's something gushing fanboys say to one another when they go overboard in praise for what are very similar movies. These are purely Favreau/Whedon movies in tone, with the food colouring of politics, magic and sci-fi sprinkled on top. They're more similar to one another than anything else.

And all that said, you could have a reasonable unique, standalone vision technically tied to this universe (the only reason I paid for a ticket last night and had hope), but Homecoming in particular doesn't care to try. This movie leans on weaving Spiderman into the current continuity of the MCU. It wants to tie Spiderman into all the recent events of other movies and doesn't care to be a work of art that stands by itself. I think that's what Sony wanted and how this movie was negotiated between them and Marvel: tie us into your cash cow. Make all the connections you want between us. We want to be a part of your moneymaking empire. Please.

 

[Monocle]

We've seen this line done a million times... but it still got me. Her delivery is what made it extra hilarious.

Yeah that got me good. Perfect note to end the film on. And what a great transition into those peppy credits.

 

[BocoDragon]

You were surprised by how not standalone it was? Did you see the poster in which Iron Man was at the front and Tony Stark was far bigger than Peter Parker?

I criticized that beforehand. I was told on this board that it would be "minor", "ignorable". Just a classic character stopping in to mentor a new one. No big intrusion.

I can imagine a standalone Spiderman movie where Stark says hello in a cameo once or twice. Naw... this was woven into the fabric of Avengers/Civil War so tightly that it should really be called a sequel.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I don’t want to be the “this isn’t exactly like the comics!” dude, especially since I do enjoy this character but at the same time I also would’ve liked to see a MJ with the comics personality since the Raimi movies were terrible about that. In the end it’s good character and it fits the movie (and I think the actress pulled it off really well) and that’s what matters. I do think they can expand on her later too, this is HS after all, plenty of room to grow. I think her being less social outcast would be the way to go, while keeping the snark, the intelligence and all of that.

I disagree, I feel the eccentric loner direction they've clearly taken with the character is much more interesting. This way Peter and MJ are something akin to kindred spirits who share a lot of common ground who invariably find themselves occasionally caught up in each others gravity from time to time whilst trying to navigate the murky trials of high-school, to such an extent that they might learn to start appreciating each other as these films continue.

I thought the final look MJ gave Peter as he excused himself from the room was rather telling. I think she quite likes Peter, but doesn't really have the social instincts that come so easily to others that allows her to connect with him as one friend might with another. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Washington Incident has already managed to clue her in as to Peter being Spider-Man. She's a sharp cookie. That subtext might be something they'll play around with later, although that obviously remains to be seen.

 

[Haloid1177]

Fuck, I was of the mindset Logan was untouchable this year for me and then Homecoming arrives and delivers the Spidey film I've always wanted. I wouldn't say it's Raimi Spidey 2 tier, but it's definitely the second best Spidey film ever. They nailed nearly everything. High school Peter was pretty much pitch perfect, I felt Spidey joked a bit too much and some didn't land, and made him seem almost too kiddish, but it still worked. Keaton was badass and my new fave MCU villain, Aunt Bae was fantastic, Happy was good, hell even the few scenes with Stark were great.

I think most of my complaints would be centered around the high schoolers around Peter. Ned seemed pretty well developed and that's it. Liz Allen seemed like the stereotypical popular girl, the girl from Nice Guys as Betty Brant was completely wasted, Flash was less bully than I usually expect from the character, and I seriously do not understand how we've renamed Mary Jane Michelle apparently but her nickname is MJ so she's the new Mary Jane? I loved how her character broke up the Ned/Peter dynamic when on screen, but not sure I'm buying that's supposed to be the new Mary Jane Watson. And the lack of red hair still bugs me. The high school dynamic still felt like Spider-Man though so it does have that. Also Martin Starr as a teacher was some great casting.

 

[SuperEpicMan]

I disagree, I feel the eccentric loner direction they've clearly taken with the character is much more interesting. This way Peter and MJ are something akin to kindred spirits who share a lot of common ground who invariably find themselves occasionally caught up in each others gravity from time to time whilst trying to navigate the murky trials of high-school, to such an extent that they might learn to start appreciating each other as these films continue.

I thought the final look MJ gave Peter as he excused himself from the room was rather telling. I think she quite likes Peter, but doesn't really have the social instincts that come so easily to others that allows her to connect with him as one friend might with another. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Washington Incident has already managed to clue her in as to Peter being Spider-Man. She's a sharp cookie. That subtext might be something they'll play around with later, although that obviously remains to be seen.

I particularly liked that she seemed to have a crush on Peter. It was a nice reversal of the Raimi movies (and probably the comics I am guessing, but I haven't read them).

 

[Sec0nd]

Fuck, I was of the mindset Logan was untouchable this year for me and then Homecoming arrives and delivers the Spidey film I've always wanted. I wouldn't say it's Raimi Spidey 2 tier, but it's definitely the second best Spidey film ever. They nailed nearly everything. High school Peter was pretty much pitch perfect, I felt Spidey joked a bit too much and some didn't land, and made him seem almost too kiddish, but it still worked. Keaton was badass and my new fave MCU villain, Aunt Bae was fantastic, Happy was good, hell even the few scenes with Stark were great.

I think most of my complaints would be centered around the high schoolers around Peter. Ned seemed pretty well developed and that's it. Liz Allen seemed like the stereotypical popular girl, the girl from Nice Guys as Betty Brant was completely wasted, Flash was less bully than I usually expect from the character, and I seriously do not understand how we've renamed Mary Jane Michelle apparently but her nickname is MJ so she's the new Mary Jane? I loved how her character broke up the Ned/Peter dynamic when on screen, but not sure I'm buying that's supposed to be the new Mary Jane Watson. And the lack of red hair still bugs me. The high school dynamic still felt like Spider-Man though so it does have that. Also Martin Starr as a teacher was some great casting.

I actually haven't thought about it but now you mention it. Keaton was actually a good villain. Like, the best villain the MCU actually has so far. He wasn't just a menacing figure wanting to blow up a planet or universe. It was a guy forced into crime because of government and/or Avengers meddling stepping on the little man. And because of his need to provide for his family and his employees he starts looking elsewhere.

He was actually quite likable in the beginning. And seriously haunting in his Falcon suit. The car scene was actually really tense as well. Great performance by Keaton. For the first time in a MCU film, the villain was actually a character.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I actually know a lot of teachers. A few of them also teach at gifted science/tech schools and the jocks are not nor, really, been for a long time these weird stereotype bros who are 6'2 and 220 pounds at the age of 15.

They're the wealthy kids, the witty kids, the cruel kids who just bully because they can.

I dunno when - or where - you went to school so can't speak to your experiences but the kind of bully that Flash was in the comics barely exists anymore, let alone in schools like Peter's.

As someone who's worked in schools, kids who assault and physically intimidate get kicked out pretty much right away.

It's the ones who tease and bully with verbal/emotional taunts that go under the radar.

 

[Discotheque]

the blue collar background of Vulture was refreshing. Definitely my favorite mcu villain, keaton brings a solid amount of menace too when necessary.

 

[BocoDragon]

Keaton was the only thing I liked much about this film. I just wanted more of him.

I liked that he figured out Spider = Parker early. Older comics/films would have made it out like no one would notice the subtitles that revealed him.

 

[Haloid1177]

I actually haven't thought about it but now you mention it. Keaton was actually a good villain. Like, the best villain the MCU actually has so far. He wasn't just a menacing figure wanting to blow up a planet or universe. It was a guy forced into crime because of government and/or Avengers meddling stepping on the little man. And because of his need to provide for his family and his employees he starts looking elsewhere.

He was actually quite likable in the beginning. And seriously haunting in his Falcon suit. The car scene was actually really tense as well. Great performance by Keaton. For the first time in a MCU film, the villain was actually a character.

The only issue I had with him was I hate how quickly he figured out that Peter was Spidey. I'm not sure why Spider-Man films insist in not allowing for a secret identity to be a secret to everyone, since three people learned it in this movie alone. Car scene was maybe the most tense MCU scene, or at least second after Fury's car chase in Winter Soldier.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I liked that he figured out Spider = Parker early. Older comics/films would have made it out like no one would notice the subtitles that revealed him.

The only issue I had with him was I hate how quickly he figured out that Peter was Spidey.

Opinions!

 

[BocoDragon]

Opinions!

Mine's the only correct one though

Spoiler

I can kind of see his point. Parker gets unmasked a lot in the movies

 

[mrkgoo]

I loved the movie.

It was fresh for Marvel movie. Loved the vulture, probably the best villain in MCU for me. Seemed so menacing for a ground-level story.

I kind of wish Peter had actually received a downgraded suit, one without all the fancy stuff - granted he may actually have that, so who knows. Just wanted a pay off to have spider learn that it wasn't the suit that made him and he doesn't need all the high-level gadgets.

I didn't like Flash - he seemed a bit too over the top.

 

[Blackhead]

The only issue I had with him was I hate how quickly he figured out that Peter was Spidey. I'm not sure why Spider-Man films insist in not allowing for a secret identity to be a secret to everyone, since three people learned it in this movie alone. Car scene was maybe the most tense MCU scene, or at least second after Fury's car chase in Winter Soldier.

He mainly figured it out because Peter can't keep a secret lol, (a nice running joke in the movie culminating in May's epic final line). Like ffs Peter stop staring at the guy like you know him, that's why Keaton figured it out.

 

[JB1981]

the blue collar background of Vulture was refreshing. Definitely my favorite mcu villain, keaton brings a solid amount of menace too when necessary.

It really wasn't though. It was so .. undercooked? And the guy lived in what looked like a multimillion dolllar home. The blue collar class conflict felt like it belonged to another draft or something and the movie seemed like it didn't have the balls to explore that theme in any real depth

 

[Sojgat]

The car scene was fantastic. Toomes should be the standard for MCU villains going forward. They established his story and character from the very first scene. I wonder if Keaton might have pushed for that.

 

[Haloid1177]

Mine's the only correct one though

Spoiler

I can kind of see his point. Parker gets unmasked a lot in the movies

And I can see why people like the added tension of people figuring it out, which isn't as hard as the comics always make it out to be. It just isn't what I want.

Also can we have Spider-Man have a mask on for a final battle in a good Spidey film once? In Raimi 1 it gets blown off, in 2 it gets torn and then taken off, in 3 I don't remember but I don't think it lasted the whole battle, just come on. I know you want the human emotion but I want my fully costumed Spidey fighting goddammit.

He mainly figured it out because Peter can't keep a secret lol, (a nice running joke in the movie culminating in May's epic final line). Like ffs Peter stop staring at the guy like you know him, that's why Keaton figured it out.

I thought Liz laying out Peter being weird and disappearing in accordance to Spidey appearances informed him more than Peter being weird, since most high school guys going to a school dance with the girl's dad driving would be acting weird.

Also Liz is a senior and her fairly wealthy parents didn't buy her a car this now bugs me.

 

[Discotheque]

It really wasn't though. It was so .. undercooked? And the guy lived in what looked like a multimillion dolllar home. The blue collar class conflict felt like it belonged to another draft or something and the movie seemed like it didn't have the balls to explore that theme in any real depth

I'm talking more the beginning of the movie. He was a contractor, worried about his employees jobs.

I'm assuming that fancy house was bought after he said fuck it and went illegitimate, so yeah his "working guy" spiel later on was hypocrisy, but thats only human. there's like 6 writers on this one so you may have a point about "another draft" tho. who knows. I agree that it didn't really explore that in much depth, nothing in here is given much time as its too concerned in quickly moving from joke to setpiece to joke. but Keaton did a great job with what he was given imo. I liked the scene when he threatened Peter in the car.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

The Avengers aren't in this movie, and an exploration of how Parker relates to the Avengers and why he wants to be one isn't in this movie. There was a way to do it ("with a team of others I could save more people... like Uncle Ben"), but they didn't put it in this movie.

That's just completely untrue. The Avengers are icons in this movie. They are the subjects of high school girls' game of marry-sleep-kill. They are the masks worn by robbers. That's how they relate to Peter. He's a kid who grew with the existence of these metaphorical rockstars being the part of life. Then one time they took him on a live concert stage. And thus the starstruck Peter wanted more, to prove to everybody - but mostly to his insecure self - that he is more.

Kindly take a step back and pretend that this film was actually cut off from the rest of the MCU. Could it actually be a stand alone? I believe it could. There's nothing about "Spider-Man wants to rush to be a big dang superhero just like his idols, but then realizes that he needs to take his own pace" actually necessitate a connection to the MCU. Would the story structure change much? I don't believe it would. When that blue guy appeared in a government-mandated educational video, you know that he's a big deal. When that robot guy appeared and easily clean up Spider-Man's mess and save the day, you know that he's a big dang hero.

Of course, the film also took advantage of its connection to the MCU, affording them some narrative shorthands, particularly at the beginning. I understand how one could dislike that and prefer a completely self contained story. However, I completely disagree that these connections is somehow unrelated to Spider-Man's internal struggle, or make him subservient to a greater universe of films, or make the story not about him. Homecoming explicitly took the MCU and mold it into Spider-Man's story.

 

[mrkgoo]

I would argue it distracts greatly from Homecoming, in particular. I don't mean that any movie technically connected to the MCU is necessarily a non-standalone experience (GotG is pretty standalone), but Homecoming in particular leans on MCU characters and events to a shocking degree.

I actually kind of know about the MCU so in some sense, I'm not lost. I knew that the alien ships they're digging up were from Avengers 1. I knew that Parker's cellphone camera diary is like an alternate view of the events of Civil War. But even if I "get it", I fundamentally don't like what it means because I can't enjoy Spiderman just being about Spiderman. It's all about this bloated soap opera.

I do agree that I have 5 standalone Spideys already. I think the Raimi ones are pretty much want I want..... but I just wonder if the CU trend precludes "real films" from being made about these characters ever again. If you told me the CU would retire about 5-10 years and they'd go back to cinematic standalones later, I'd definitely leave this topic alone and let people enjoy their crossover sandbox. I'm just worried this is the trend that means I never get a Spiderman 1 and 2 or TDK ever again.

To be fair, isn't that what the comics are like? The characters in the comic universes have never lived in a universe where only they participated. they were always part of that whole. And yes, they did have those singular adventures, but couldn't the movies do that? Especially with Sony taking over the reins again. Acknowledge it's part of the whole without leaning to heavily into it (which is why I actually like Cap 1 and 2 a lot, they are through and through their own stories).

I liked how this movies is set upon a backdrop of a "post-Avengers" world, because it does inform Spider-man as a character in a way that hasn't been done before.

 

[SpaceWolf]

In relation to the discussion about Toomes learning Peter's secret identity, I actually really loved that as a development, if purely for the touch at the end where we find out that Toomes seems to be willfully protecting Peter's identity from Gargan and his cronies in prison. I think what really made Toomes interesting as a villain is that he seems to genuinely respect Peter, acknowledging that both of them are just average guys coming from the same humble, working class backgrounds. I think that respect deepens (if begrudgingly) when Peter saves his life at the end of their climactic fight, leading to Toomes quietly repaying a debt of gratitude to Peter by protecting his identity.

What makes Toomes stand out as a villain (and especially as a MCU villain) is that there are all these different flavours to him, both good and bad, malicious yet strangely relatable. I'm hugely grateful they kept the character alive, his inclusion into the inevitable Sinister Six group that'll surface in future installments should prove interesting, especially given his strange new loyalty to Peter and how that might cause some degree of conflict for him later down the line.

 

[Discotheque]

yeah I liked that he stuck to his code of paying back his debts all the way up to the credits scene.

 

[Blackhead]

It really wasn't though. It was so .. undercooked? And the guy lived in what looked like a multimillion dolllar home. The blue collar class conflict felt like it belonged to another draft or something and the movie seemed like it didn't have the balls to explore that theme in any real depth

And I can see why people like the added tension of people figuring it out, which isn't as hard as the comics always make it out to be. It just isn't what I want.

Also can we have Spider-Man have a mask on for a final battle in a good Spidey film once? In Raimi 1 it gets blown off, in 2 it gets torn and then taken off, in 3 I don't remember but I don't think it lasted the whole battle, just come on. I know you want the human emotion but I want my fully costumed Spidey fighting goddammit.



I thought Liz laying out Peter being weird and disappearing in accordance to Spidey appearances informed him more than Peter being weird, since most high school guys going to a school dance with the girl's dad driving would be acting weird.

Also Liz is a senior and her fairly wealthy parents didn't buy her a car this now bugs me.

Blue collar doesn't necessarily mean poor, especially if you're hard working and spent decades in the industry. Even from the start the Toomes had the capital to run his own demolition crew and invest in extra vans and stuff. He had some money. I like what they did there. They could have pushed the blue collar angle more but that would mean involving Tony Stark in the final battle since that aspect of Toomes' grievances are with Iron Man/Avengers not Spider Man. The focus is just the right amount imo.

Yeah but if Peter wasn't staring at Keaton in the car instead of focusing on his date then Liz wouldn't have brought up all that stuff.

This also ties back into the blue collar background. Whether or not the Father can afford it she doesn't need a car because she's in NY and can take the subway like everybody else

 

[JB1981]

Blue collar doesn't necessarily mean poor, especially if you're hard working and spent decades in the industry. Even from the start the Toomes had the capital to run his own demolition crew and invest in extra vans and stuff. He had some money. I like what they did there. They could have pushed the blue collar angle more but that would mean involving Tony Stark in the final battle since that aspect of Toomes' grievances are with Iron Man/Avengers not Spider Man. The focus is just the right amount imo.

Yeah but if Peter wasn't staring at Keaton in the car instead of focusing on his date then Liz wouldn't have brought up all that stuff.

This also ties back into the blue collar background. Whether or not the Father can afford it she doesn't need a car because she's in NY and can take the subway like everybody else

He lost his cleanup job because re government wanted to oversight over an alien race from another dimension. It doesn't seem to be a particulary valid reason to want to stick it to the man

 

[jmood88]

I liked the movie but man, Ned was annoying as fuck.

 

[KimiNewt]

Cross-posting from the review thread.

Cross-posting. I just got out of the movie. These are my immediate impressions. I'll probably develop my thoughts over the coming days as I chew over the scenes in my mind.

I'm reviewing this movie as a person who would identify as a pretty huge Spider-Man fan. I have over a 700 comics of this character alone and he's easily my favourite fictional character.

Overall I thought it was a great start. It's true to Peter Parker like no other movie before it. In fact it feels so much like a Spider-Man comic (particularly like a Dan Slott issue). Do I think it's as good as Spider-Man 2 as a film? No. But that's not a problem. They are two different takes on Spidey which are both (for the most part) very respectful of the background and origin of the character.

Some things to note:

Spoiler

The Norman Osbourne-ing of Vulture:
What do I mean by this? Well when Norman Osbourne was first revealed to be the Green Goblin, who happened to be Peter's best friend's dad, it was a huge twist, especially for the audience. Raimi decided he didn't really want to go that route with the first Spider-Man film (which is odd), and so the audience knows about Norman's descent before the characters do. In contrast, the Vulture reveal scene was pulled off perfectly. The audience actually gasped - it was probably the first time I've heard a collective surprise reaction from an entire crowd in the cinema. It was pulled off really well, and Keaton's delivery over the next 20 minutes was flawless. Seriously, one of the best super hero villains to date.

Not much of an emotional core:
So this is something that Raimi's films got right. Although Spider-Man comics have always had a light touch to them, at the core they are very melodramatic comics. Right from Amazing Fantasy, Peter was worrying about finances, his aunt, his dating life. And it was always presented dramatically. Stan Lee himself would compare the emotional core of Spider-Man comics to Russian Literature (let's not get into his actual scripting involvement). The point is that, the dramatic components in Spider-Man's life are not presented in a light hearted manner. They're deep conflicts that completely envelope him, even when he was in high school.

Homecoming doesn't really seem to understand that. Everything is really light hearted. Well, until it's not and he has to pick up this thing:

So when it happens, the emotion and struggle doesn't feel entirely earned. The movie doesn't really allow Peter to have quiet moments like Raimi's Peter does. It's so caught up in moving him from comedic scene to set piece to an MCU building scene that I'm not presented with a moment to relate to Peter.

He's kind of awkward, sure. And yes, Liz originally was crushing on him in the comics too, so I can't say that's wrong. But the only real struggle in the entire movie is him not having his costume. Where are the conversations of his Aunt struggling to make money? Or his conscience eating him whole? Where's the guilt?

Uncle Ben..
I would have at the very least liked them to acknowledge him in some way or another. Instead we get a throw away line about May having gone through a whole lot. I'm not very comfortable with Tony Stark taking up the replacement role, if they aren't at least going to mention Ben.

Action Scenes
Not sure if this was intentional, but the action scenes don't at all look as good as they do in all previous Spider-Man films. It was probably to maintain the tone of the movie, so there are no sweeping shots of him web slinging, which is a staple of the character as far as his film history is concerned. I didn't really actually mind the mostly low-key presentation of his acrobatics. I'm sure they'll play this up in subsequent films.

Rejecting Stark
I was really happy with the final decision. Looks like the MCU understands the character a lot more than the brains behind Spidey's involvement in Civil War (Quesada, Millar, Straczynski).

Wow, I agree 100%.

I'll add to the emotional core stuff that I felt it was really missing the "why" of Spider-Man, which I think is a big part of the character. We just assume he wants to do good for whatever reason (or because we know of previous incarnations).

When he goes to the prom and walks back out, we don't really know WHY. Sure, it makes sense to want to do good things, but why risk his life and the life of his loved ones so much? We don't get one line in the whole movie about wanting to do good, about responsibility. Just one or two lines would've made this film much better, and the lifting scene much more powerful - as it is it rang mostly hollow.

Other than that, I loved the film and I think it's the best Spider-Man film and best MCU film, but there's still much to improve.

 

[Sojgat]

He lost his cleanup job because re government wanted to oversight over an alien race from another dimension. It doesn't seem to be a particulary valid reason to want to stick it to the man

It's probably the most true to life thing in the entire movie.

 

[Blackhead]

He lost his cleanup job because re government wanted to oversight over an alien race from another dimension. It doesn't seem to be a particulary valid reason to want to stick it to the man

the government already had oversight as he was working for the city government. The Feds stepped in and could have partnered with him and continued that contract. Instead they partnered with Stark Industries who is the Man he wants to stick it to

 

[JB1981]

It's probably the most true to life thing in the entire movie.

Exactly. Can't see people protesting too much if the government doesn't want potentially deadly alien tech circulating among the public.

His crew seeemd awfully adept at inventing new technology too. How did they learn to do all that? Are they scientists?

 

[Mr. Sam]

Cross-posting from the review thread.



Wow, I agree 100%.

I'll add to the emotional core stuff that I (not really spoilers but just in case)

Spoiler

felt it was really missing the "why" of Spider-Man, which I think is a big part of the character. We just assume he wants to do good for whatever reason (or because we know of previous incarnations).

When he goes to the prom and walks back out, we don't really know WHY. Sure, it makes sense to want to do good things, but why risk his life and the life of his loved ones so much? We don't get one line in the whole movie about wanting to do good, about responsibility. Just one or two lines would've made this film much better, and the lifting scene much more powerful - as it is it rang mostly hollow.

Spoiler

Other than that, I loved the film and I think it's the best Spider-Man film and best MCU film, but there's still much to improve.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Dudes, it's the spoilers thread - no need for tags.

 

[mrkgoo]

Cross-posting from the review thread.



Wow, I agree 100%.

I'll add to the emotional core stuff that I (not really spoilers but just in case)

Spoiler

felt it was really missing the "why" of Spider-Man, which I think is a big part of the character. We just assume he wants to do good for whatever reason (or because we know of previous incarnations).

When he goes to the prom and walks back out, we don't really know WHY. Sure, it makes sense to want to do good things, but why risk his life and the life of his loved ones so much? We don't get one line in the whole movie about wanting to do good, about responsibility. Just one or two lines would've made this film much better, and the lifting scene much more powerful - as it is it rang mostly hollow.

Other than that, I loved the film and I think it's the best Spider-Man film and best MCU film, but there's still much to improve.

We've had the cliche line thrown at us at every turn. I do like that line as it's who Spider-Man is.

But I don't think it was necessary in this movie. This isn't about how he got his powers and why he started, yet it's weirdly a movie about becoming Spider-Man.

Personally i nearly audibly heard the famous line in my head when Peter was at the party and about to go in as spider before he witnessed the explosion and decided he'd do better to check that out instead.


And we knew exactly why he walked out at the prom. He had just been threatened as Spider-Man, to stop being the hero he always wanted to be. That's the moment He made the decision to be Spider-Man.

 

[Blackhead]

Exactly. Can't see people protesting too much if the government doesn't want potentially deadly alien tech circulating among the public.

Under the original contract Toomes was never supposed to keep the tech. They were always going to give it to the government.

His crew seeemd awfully adept at inventing new technology too. How did they learn to do all that? Are they scientists?

They are machinists, tool guys. There's a long history of craftsmen/workmen inventing & adapting new technology without being formally trained 'scientists'.

 

[kiguel182]

I disagree, I feel the eccentric loner direction they've clearly taken with the character is much more interesting. This way Peter and MJ are something akin to kindred spirits who share a lot of common ground who invariably find themselves occasionally caught up in each others gravity from time to time whilst trying to navigate the murky trials of high-school, to such an extent that they might learn to start appreciating each other as these films continue.

I thought the final look MJ gave Peter as he excused himself from the room was rather telling. I think she quite likes Peter, but doesn't really have the social instincts that come so easily to others that allows her to connect with him as one friend might with another. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Washington Incident has already managed to clue her in as to Peter being Spider-Man. She's a sharp cookie. That subtext might be something they'll play around with later, although that obviously remains to be seen.

I don't mind them being more similar, Ultimate did something like that, but I like the dynamic of her being more social and him more awkward and that seems to be missing here.

I think here she seems more assertive than him so that dynamic might still be in play and that's good. I'm not as down on her as my sister (she hated the tomboy and anti social aspect) but I do hope she gets more out of her shell in the future to have a more similar dynamic from the original.

 

[Haloid1177]

Also how did Vulture swoop down from the sky during Peter's pursuit of the weapons dealer and not trigger a spider sense? Dropped the ball.

 

[kiguel182]

I love what they did with Volture.

You can't do the twist with Norman since everyone knows who he is so is awesome they did it with another villain and it worked so well.

Keaton was so good.

 

[mrkgoo]

Also how did Vulture swoop down from the sky during Peter's pursuit of the weapons dealer and not trigger a spider sense? Dropped the ball.

He's still a newbie. Plus we don't really know the extent of this version's powers.

 

[KimiNewt]

We've had the cliche line thrown at us at every turn. I do like that line as it's who Spider-Man is.

But I don't think it was necessary in this movie. This isn't about how he got his powers and why he started, yet it's weirdly a movie about becoming Spider-Man.

Personally i nearly audibly heard the famous line in my head when Peter was at the party and about to go in as spider before he witnessed the explosion and decided he'd do better to check that out instead.

I agree with the last point but I think the movie would've been better had it been made more explicit.

One thing about the "too-MCU-focused" thing: this was my girlfriend's first MCU film (and first Marvel thing in general). She loved it and didn't seem to be confused about anything (except for me gasping when seeing things like 'The Prowler', 'Gagrin', and 'nephew', and even 'MJ').

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I thought Doctor Strange had about the right amount of MCU integration.....a brief acknowledgement of a shared universe, and a funny post-credits cameo that leads into a future film.

In Homecoming you have the Avengers masks on the robbers, the girls discussing which Avenger they want to Marry/Fuck/Kill, Peter doing a Thor impression in the candid videos, the Captain America gym videos, a reference about dating Black Widow, the talk about Peter having a room next to Vision in the new Avengers headquarters., the entire subplot about how Stark is moving the Avengers HQ to upstate New York....

And that's before we even get begin to discuss Tony Stark's influence over the entire narrative arc. I don't see how someone could remotely pretend that the rest of the MCU had a remotely similar presence in Doctor Strange.

Remotely similar? No. But that wasn't what you said. You said Strange didn't explicitly refer to other characters, and that's blatantly false. Hell, we even got two shots of Avengers tower to go with the other two references.

Peter goes to a high school in Queens, NYC, where the Avengers are probably the most popular. The only thing weird about the movie is no one seems to know anything about the Netflix characters (lol pls Marvel Studios). The Avengers mask aside, everything else was completely organic in Peter's world.

I dont see the issue. Every other MCU movie, except maybe Antman, is from high up looking down. We're alongside the soldiers and gods and inter-dimensional sorcerers. They're never going to see or hear or talk about that stuff because they're on the frontlines or worrying about saving the world or not getting killed

This is everyday life in that world. Peter is just some kid who grew up watching Iron Man fly past in the distance from his bedroom window, learned about Cap and Hydra in his history books, and cited a Bruce Banner research paper for his science class essay. If we have inspirational posters with movie characters, cosplay as favorite characters, causally drop pop culture references and lines in conversation, why wouldn't people in this world do the same with the heroes that actually exist in their world?

It only feels jarring because we've never seen the MCU from this perspective before.

All of this. Especially because, they're kids. They're gonna talk and be amazed about this stuff more than most adults.

Is it controversial to say this is the best MCU movie so far? Cause holy shit, I just got back from seeing it,and I'm in love. Movie knocked it out of the park. 10/10 IMO perfect summer movie

Nope. I'm seeing a lot of that. It's how I feel, but I'm biased. Spider-Man has always had my heart, and I just can't stop smiling about this movie. Hate it released on a day of loss for Stan Lee.

 

[Haloid1177]

He's still a newbie. Plus we don't really know the extent of this version's powers.

Spider sense is like kinda an integral power to the character.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I love what they did with Volture.

You can't do the twist with Norman since everyone knows who he is so is awesome they did it with another villain and it worked so well.

Keaton was so good.

Speaking of Norman, when Adrian was brandishing the knife while Peter was waiting for Liz to get ready at her house, did anyone immediately think of this scene?

Both scenes felt very similar

 

[kiguel182]

I don't get the complain about the references to the MCU. In the comics Spider Man always lived in a world with other heroes and it always reflected in the character. It makes sense that the same happens here.

The contrast between him and the Avengers was great and it helped build the character and showed us his frustrations and motivations. It was very unique to the movies and accurate to the comics.

Edit: Yeah, it reminded me of SM1 for sure. I mean, it is the same plot thread just with the audience being in the same level of Peter instead of always knowing. Such a good movie!

 

[Discotheque]

Speaking of Norman, when Adrian was brandishing the knife while Peter was waiting for Liz to get ready at her house, did anyone immediately think of this scene?

Both scenes felt very similar

the car scene in particular as he started to piece together that it was Peter as Spiderman definitely reminded me of Osborne at thanksgiving.

 

[Kyne]

Movie was amazing. Really excited about what this is going to bring to the MCU, and for Spidey fans in general.

My theater audibly gasped at the dad reveal. Haven't seen/heard that kind of reaction to a movie in a long time.