Why the last generation was about cross generation games for the first 18 months with the promise of better stuff in the future. I don't see anything wrong with cross generation and play for the first holiday season. After that first party support can move on and third party can move on when it financially makes sense to. Give next generation 60fps RT and 4k as the goodies especially in multiplayer games the frame rate and resolution advantages be insentives until the next generation games are ready in 2021.
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Microsoft: Scarlett games will work across the whole Xbox family
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
- News
transformer
Member
Perhaps I misunderstood you statement, my apologies. I keep hearing 8k and up to 120 fps for next generation (and TVs starting to support higher framerates, resolutions will follow) and expect both next gen consoles to support this at some level. Despite backward compatibility. The PC space has figured this out already, I hope Sony and Microsoft follow a similar path.
Blue Apple
Member
Most households still won't have 4K TVs when next gen launches. If all Scarlett games will run on XBox One, a lot of people won't feel the need to spend $500 on a new console capable of 4K graphics because they won't see any benefit. They'll just keep playing on XB1. Next gen console sales will be slow as a result and the majority of Scarlett games purchased will be played on last gen. Since the majority of players will be on old tech, the developers won't have much of a reason to create the best games possible.
TwiztidElf
Member
Forward compatibility. Pretty cool, despite the possibility of hamstrung games.
Just a shame there's no games I want to play.
Just a shame there's no games I want to play.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Both of you are still making the assumption that 1st party studios exist to make money. That is not what they are for.
Microsoft might have given up on selling Scarlet, but Sony certainly have not given up on the PS5. Sony will release PS5 exclusives because they want to sell next gen machines. That had been the buisness plan since PS2, it worked very well so far.
ManaByte
Member
DeltaPolarBear
Member
There is no other possible conclusion. If one care about selling a console, one make exclusives for it. Q.E.D.
Its not about money it's not about pissing off 40 million of the most loyal fans out there. Sony is earned the cred to do what they want MS is still in damage control mode. Throwing a last bone to those loyal fans is a good thing. Not like MS has any super heavy hitters anymore to sell a next generation console anyways. So they are doing it through good will and showing people dedication to the ecosystem. It is a bold and interesting strategy. They can't fight Sony first party studios so they need other tactics. It will be interesting the reaction of the 100 million PS4 users to this forward compatibility. It could could be nothing or a firestorm of pissed off people.
TimFL
Member
It‘s not feasible. Look at a game like the latest Hitman with all of the AI going on in there. Now picture making this run on a 360 cause „xbox family man“, you‘d essentially have to make a completely new game that looks and plays way way WAY differently.
Or RDR2, you‘re looking at RDR 1 from a technical stand point on the PS3 and then RDR 2 on the PS4. If you want to truly take advantage of the new hardware, you essentially look at creating 2 games instead of one (because the PS3 can‘t support the gameplay elements / AI of RDR2).
It‘s either that or you go for the obvious low hanging fruit: design a game for last gen and then enhance the graphics and potentially a few gameplay elements for current gen.
nikolino840
Member
We feel confident about our content pipeline so that we feel we don't need to save everything up for that beat," Booty concludes.
"But what I'll also say is that today, when you launch a new device you are not eliminating all of the devices in that family to date. If I make a game for the iPhone, when the iPhone X comes out I can't just write it for the iPhone X and pretend as if the 9, 8, 7 and 6 don't exist.
"When Scarlett launches, there will still be the Xbox One S and Xbox One X out there. We really need to approach that family of devices in the same way that we approach PC, where the content scales to meet the device. That's going to be the case for anybody. It's not like, if we roll back the clock 15 years, when a new device was out and people wanted you to take your old device and just put it in the closet.
"We will absolutely lean in on the power of Scarlett. We think it's going to be the best way to play and it'll be the best thing to put in your living room. But we also want to understand that there will be a family of Xbox devices out there that we want to make sure we support fully."
"But what I'll also say is that today, when you launch a new device you are not eliminating all of the devices in that family to date. If I make a game for the iPhone, when the iPhone X comes out I can't just write it for the iPhone X and pretend as if the 9, 8, 7 and 6 don't exist.
"When Scarlett launches, there will still be the Xbox One S and Xbox One X out there. We really need to approach that family of devices in the same way that we approach PC, where the content scales to meet the device. That's going to be the case for anybody. It's not like, if we roll back the clock 15 years, when a new device was out and people wanted you to take your old device and just put it in the closet.
"We will absolutely lean in on the power of Scarlett. We think it's going to be the best way to play and it'll be the best thing to put in your living room. But we also want to understand that there will be a family of Xbox devices out there that we want to make sure we support fully."
Shangounchained
Banned
They probably mean 120fps 4k or 8k current gen 30fps games can run on Scarlett or ps5 I hope it's what they mean by cross gen because they said next gen consoles will be backwards compatible! But if they meant developing games to run on a ps4 and then port them to ps5 then that's fucked up, when I get a ps5 I want to see ps5 visuals from scratch not tweaked quality sliders in settings like we have today on console Vs pc they have to be a fresh generation,
but then again Microsoft never know what they are doing somehow they don't understand the whole console business, they keep fucking up
Shangounchained
Banned
They are
They are fucking up again I can already see playstation winning.
Shangounchained
Banned
Pc games haven't been limited in only resolution the games at heart are current PS4 n Xbox one ports so they have current console graphics assets the consoles are holding pc down its y every GPU out there is usually 8gb once next gen comes out then pcs will get a fresh advancement
Shangounchained
Banned
Why the fuck do we need the pro versions I don't need a Scarlett pro the fuck consoles aren't iPhones it's bullshit, we went from Xbox one to s to X to Scarlett then Scarlett pro just fucking make one next gen Xbox and move on!
The updates sold well...they're here to stay.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
There is not that much CPU performance difference between One S and One X as the gulf between either and Scarlett.
ResilientBanana
Member
Ok, look at games that have PhysX. You can literally turn better physics on.
Journey
Banned
So by your logic, Read Dead Redemption 2 looks like Read Dead Redemption 1 in 4K
The difference in power from a high end PC today and base Xbox One is definitely bigger than what you'll get from Next Gen vs Xbox One X/ PS4 Pro. Red Dead Redemption 2 on PC is glorious and pushes today's high end PC no doubt, while at the same time scaling all the way down to the 1.3 TF Xbox One.
You're making up problems that don't exist.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Sony released inFAMOUS Second Son 5 months after the PS4 started selling. There's ZERO chance that game would have been possible on the PS3. Let me show you some content. ALL of these gifs and screenshots are in real-time.
This is some of the best of what the PS3 could do with the same dev team on Infamous 2.
The 100 million PS4 fans will not be pissed off, if the PS5 has games that people feel just could be possible on the PS4. That's how you make people excited for the next "NEW" thing.
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Rolling_Start
Banned
CPU is a tad faster in X1 than PS4. For cross gen, multiplatform games the PS4's CPU is actually going to be the baseline (only just). And there are going to be lots of cross gen games.
Everyone's happy to hack back the X1s graphics or, much worse, let the frame rate suffer. That's not going to change.
TimFL
Member
Forget about physics. A game is more than just physics, it's a combination of things that take up resources. When next gen has 16-24GB of RAM you're looking at providing someone with a similar experience that fits into 6GB. Means you have to compensate 10+GB of data (texture quality is big but acceptable, stuff like AI logic, scripts, calculations also take up RAM... not to mention the tablet CPUs the current gen consoles rock...)... what if you can't condense the must have features into 6GB? What if the gigantic AI system you wrote just can't really run on the crap CPUs the X1/PS4 and co sport? You nerf your next gen game so it fits and runs.
One example I can think of is The Last of Us: The early prototypes for their MP modes had infected AI roaming the maps that attack you and other players. They had to cut that out because they just couldn't get it to work smoothly on PS3 consoles... a while later TLoU Remastered is announced and shipped, it has no AI mode cause it essentially has feature parity with the PS3 version (and that is with an essentially late release, not same day).
Another example is the Hitman game that launched on X1/PS4/PC (the one before Hitman 2), the devs talked about why it's X1/PS4/PC exclusive: the sheer amount of NPCs / AI in the pretty big and detailed levels would in no way run on the old generation of consoles. Would you be content with 100 NPCs less and potentially smaller levels? It'd probably change the dynamic of the games missions on last gen consoles...
With cross-gen releases you essentially look at games like AC4 Black Flag, not worth it to create a completely new experience or new gameplay ideas when all you can realistically do is up the graphics cause you still got the weak link of the console family to cater to.
But I get it, NeoGAF is the home of armchair developers. More power to the community
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GymWolf
Member
No chance in hell that big games like horizon 2 or gow 5 or next naughty dogs game are gonna get slowed down by ps4 version...
Maybe for secondary games...
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Tales from the ass.
bumleforce
Member
So xbox development is gonna be like pc development. Those who think that is bad look at witcher 3 running on lowest settings to high and tell me this is bad. I like that I can play high end version of a game in my office and still play it in my bedroom at lower quality. Or I could just stream with x cloud. This is why xbox rocks. I love that they give me options
When the Ps5 uses ssd as base hardrive and developer can use this as their base while xbox games can not you will not be able to archive even close the same on there. IT is terrible news for the whole Generation since developer have to compromise on multiplatform titles.
Example. A game like Star citzizen would not be posdible on the xbox
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DoctorEkkoUK
Member
So exactly the same situation we currently have with PC gaming?
PC gaming will also hold back the ps5 if ssd does not become Standard. Star citzizen will be the first game a ssd is actually needed.
So what you will see are huge gaps between ps5 games and multiplatform titles
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This guys "GETS" it! Dunki is 100% correct here. Especially about the PS5 using the PCI-E SSD as a baseline. It's stupid that Xbox exclusives will have to be made with 8GBs of RAM, weak Jaguar cores, and a 5400 RPM mechanical hard drive in mind.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Multiplatform publishers are free to do whatever they want whenever they want.
Their games have to be made to run on PC. They couldn't assume a PCI-E SSD right now even if they ignored the base consoles. That situation is in the process of changing as PC gamers migrate to larger SSDs that they run games from.
We don't know at what point MS will begin to develop exclusives that no longer support the X1. They have absolutely not ruled it out, as the T3 in the OP incorrectly indicates. I think it will be pretty early on.
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Yes they are but they also has to take in considerations. A Last of US 2 for example does look like that because they have the same tech on all platforms.
Developing games with a SSD or HDD in mind for example would be a bigger gab then a Sony and Switch game for example. Having a SSD as base will revolutionize games. They can be much more dense, they can be much bigger full of life and objects. The methods of streaming game worlds will be a totally different view.
So if one console does not go for a SSD as well we will not see has much evolution and change as people want for a new generation. And I think that is really sad. Imagine how a GTA would be able to look with just a SSD in Mind. Your brain would explode.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I TOTALLY forgot about that new MS initiative (that every 1st party game will run on a PC). You're right about that. MS really is literally all over the place.
NickFire
Member
Maybe, and maybe not. Would you think they are all over the place if selling gamepass on every available console, pc, etc., were part of the long term plan?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No. Not if the long term plan is to put Gamepass on Playstation and Nintendo consoles. That would tell me they are competing "against" them anymore, but rather working hand-in-hand "with" the other console makers. That'll be something we haven't seen before (Sega is close, but they got there only after quitting the hardware console business).
phil_t98
#SonyToo
biggest game of this Gen was GTA 5 which was a cross gen game
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No it's not. It's a PS3\Xbox360 game. They Remastered it for the PS4\Xbox One.
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bitbydeath
Member
So by your logic, Read Dead Redemption 2 looks like Read Dead Redemption 1 in 4K
The difference in power from a high end PC today and base Xbox One is definitely bigger than what you'll get from Next Gen vs Xbox One X/ PS4 Pro. Red Dead Redemption 2 on PC is glorious and pushes today's high end PC no doubt, while at the same time scaling all the way down to the 1.3 TF Xbox One.
You're making up problems that don't exist.
You realise RDR1 and 2 are two different games across different generations right? (Xbox 360 vs Xbox One) Of course that’s a leap.
GTAV (360) vs GTAV (XOne) would be the better example since it’s the same title across multiple gens.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Plus, I'd love to see what RDR2 would have look and play like if it was designed to "ONLY" play on PCs with 16 GBs of RAM, an M.2 SSD, i7-9700k\Ryzen 7 3700x CPU, and a RTX 2080 Ti\Radeon 7 GPU.
Golgo 13
The Man With The Golden Dong
Pretty fucking sad that the base Xbox One is going to be a base for development for games in what I would guess would be all the way to 2027. Sure, we’ll get higher frame rates and resolution on Scarlett but to me this is a horrific idea that will hold back game development.
And then you’re asking developers to make MINIMUM 5 different builds (Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Windows, Scarlet) for an exclusive alone. Which is going to b increase development costs even more, cause more bugs to appear in games, and delay the release of games exponentially.
Not a fan of the idea, and I hope to be proven wrong.
And then you’re asking developers to make MINIMUM 5 different builds (Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Windows, Scarlet) for an exclusive alone. Which is going to b increase development costs even more, cause more bugs to appear in games, and delay the release of games exponentially.
Not a fan of the idea, and I hope to be proven wrong.
Journey
Banned
But I just said that the PC is even MORE than a generational leap from Xbox One. RDR2 with max settings running at 4K can barely hit 60fps even on the most powerful 2080TI, it's not like the GPU is underutilized and the difference between PC version and Xbox One is what you would consider a generational leap, like comparing a 360 game vs Xbox One or PS4.
Wondering what RDR 2 would look like had it been built from the ground up on PC? What about The Witcher 3? wasn't that game built on the PC and then ported down? there is no difference, games will likely start off on PC as base and scale down to all Xbox platforms, and as usual, will look best on PC, and it might be the PC that's being held back, not Scarlett or PS5 lol.
bitbydeath
Member
No, it’s all about the lowest common denominator that it has to support (my example) and not a perceived difference between two hardware types of which it doesn’t (your example).
Do you think Witcher 3 would look and play the same if the base system was the first Xbox? Generation leaps do a lot more than tack on physics, higher resolutions and bump framerates.
Journey
Banned
The Witcher 3 is running on the Nintendo Switch
*Drum roll / Clash!
*Drops Mic
Obama Out.
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Rolling_Start
Banned
Don't worry, SSD as the base for games is coming, it's just not quite time yet. If you're a multiplatform developer as MS is, there's going to be a transition period.
There might be some wiggle room for improvements on PS4 / X1 with external flash storage in the mean time, but requiring that would fragment your userbase and might not ever be worth it.
MS have been working towards this for years, and delivering on it for about two. At the moment you need to support down to about a moderate quad core from a few years back, and a mechanical drive, and be able to hit around 60 fps (GPU permitting).
In light of that, I don't think supporting the X1 is going to be too much of a drag if you're happy to just go for 30 fps. But the further past 2020 we go the more that will change, of course.
The market has hit an inflection point in terms of increasing core counts and the cost of flash storage is continuing to drop. Dropping PS4 / X1 for AAA games is inevitable, it's just not going to happen on PS5 / Scarlett launch day.
(Might do for some PS5 exclusives, of course, because Sony don't support the PC or have a Gamepass like service, and it might be worth creating exclusives even if the games could conceivably scale back to PS4.)
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The devs knew The Witcher 3 was going to be on consoles too. So yes, they designed that game to work on Xbox One and PS4 consoles too (even though PC was the lead hardware of choice during development).
The change of a HDD to a SSD is fcking dramatic. The amount of stuuff you can stream and load in vast open worlds would be insane n a SSD. Open world games especially are restricted how much they can stream at once. If RDR2 would have been developed for SSDs only you would not have these framerate problems at all.
The problem with RDR2 is not the graphics but the stream.
Here is an example of what a game devloped almost requiring a SSD can do
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
They had to change their entire rendering API due to it being overspec'ed for the 2013 consoles. The lowest denominator. And the PC, the highest power machines, never got the better looking version of the two rederers as a side effect.
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Rolling_Start
Banned
I don't think that's actually true - the frame rate issues don't appear to be anything to do with the game having been designed for HDD transfer rates. Low frame rates appear to be due to people overloading the GPU, and frame time variability seems to be down to how the game interacts with some CPUs, and possibly some drivers.
It's worth noting that AAA open world games have insane budgets, and take a long time to develop. You wouldn't get one that really utilised everything a console had to offer at a console's launch.