Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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geordiemp said:
I just listend to the moores law podcast and he said an SSD designer who is an expert he talked to..... was saying the Ps5 design was incredicble and with thsoe specs the 22 gbs max made sense, but the 5 and 8-9 was on the cautious very low side in his opinion and surprised him with 12 channels, 6 priorities and all the custom stuff.

They speculated that Sony actually low balled the spec for devs and game makers to help third party expansion drives maybe could be used in the expansion bay, but the reality was the actual latency and speed is well beyond even the newer SSD drives.

Hence the awkward part where Cerny tried to talk about third party expansion options.

Again its a pod cast with no verification on the insight, juts interesting possible talking points I guess.

TLDR the Ps5 SSD drive is faster than many think.....way faster.
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Yeah, pretty chill yet informative episode. If I'm not mistaken I believe Tom had mentioned that Sony may have made the damned SSD I/O too good or efficient to their chagrin 🤣.
 
FranXico said:
That's the point of the rumored SSD/controller downgrade. Games should run just about the same, whether from the internal storage, or the expansion slot.
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Ah riiiiiight. Ah getcha now.


B_Boss said:
Yeah, pretty chill yet informative episode. If I'm not mistaken I believe Tom had mentioned that Sony may have made the damned SSD I/O too good or efficient to their chagrin 🤣.
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May well make it into PS6 and reduce the cost of R&D I suppose?
 
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FeiRR said:
Nowhere. I was talking about two separate things. That's why I divided my post into two parts.
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i don't get it? did i misread something? what are you talking about then? :confused:
X-Fighter said:
Also saying: "If you want to see true next-gen gameplay, you'll need to wait till Sony shows PS5 only titles" basically means that Sony wants you to buy a PS5, and deliberately doesn't release games on PS4 anymore. We'll see if they actually release something that wouldn't have been possible on PS4 or even PC.
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FeiRR said:
Yes, they said that quite a long time ago: New PlayStation boss Jim Ryan says the company's main goal is to move the community from the current generation to the PlayStation 5 more quickly than it has in the past. That's why I expect PS5-only games to release quite soon. Right now Sony is launching two major exclusives for PS4 and that's probably the last major support for PS4 they're going to have. It's been 7 years, high time for a change.
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FeiRR said:
Redesigning engines and then game architectures around the new paradigm will take more than a year or so that devs have had so far with next gen devkits. We're talking about improvements which cannot be simulated on PC hardware this time. That's why I expect the cross gen transition period to be very visible too. In five years we'll be laughing how poor those titles we're going to see today will look.
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But HZD engine already streams the game world, all they have to do for HZD2 is take advantage of the crazy SSD.

I think next gen will be on us by Xmas this year.
 
James Sawyer Ford said:
Or, maybe Microsoft just exaggerated their typical case and Sony understated it a little bit? We don't know. And it would be useful to know Microsoft's max figure. As someone mentioned. Is the top speed only 4.8 GB/s? That means the difference is even larger in favor of Sony's solution.

At the end of the day I am going with the base uncompressed speeds as being a good representation of the performance delta, and that compression techniques for each console won't amount to a meaningful difference.
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Sony will hit near 22GB/s mark occasionally as Cerny stated, they're just saving it for another time. It's funny that they even deleted their compressed figures in their official blog to prepare for their optimal sucker punch.

472334418.jpg
 
Clintizzle said:
Does anyone remember the first gameplay footage we saw of this current gen? Did it end up being bullshit?
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It was Kz shadow fall and no. It was the same . Two were bullshits :Ubisoft with watch dog which was bullshit and capcom with deep down was never released .
 
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FeiRR said:
Those games were built mainly for Playstation consoles. and then maybe Xbox (also Switch and PC in some cases). Xbox has ~20% of the market so it's not the main target of any major multiplatform developer.


Yes, they said that quite a long time ago: New PlayStation boss Jim Ryan says the company's main goal is to move the community from the current generation to the PlayStation 5 more quickly than it has in the past. That's why I expect PS5-only games to release quite soon. Right now Sony is launching two major exclusives for PS4 and that's probably the last major support for PS4 they're going to have. It's been 7 years, high time for a change.
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Developing games this gen is going to be the smoothest transition ever. They were using AMD APUs and lot of the development tools will remain the same or even better. I strongly believe this is going to be one of the best gens ever.
 
X-Fighter said:
Well that's not what Microsoft is saying.



Yeah, but you are saying like that's a good thing. While they easily could've released it on PS4 too.
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Taking full advantage of XVA? I mean that seems a very confident thing to say right off the bat for launch TP games. The Assassin's Creed crap put me off bothering with this but these Tweets have drawn me back in.
 
I don't know if I like the idea of these "optimized for next-gen" badges.

Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but when I see them, I just think, "oh, so the last gen port of this game (if it has one) probably performs like shit."

I'm getting Vietnam flashbacks to Shadow of Mordor on PS3 and 360.
 
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THE:MILKMAN said:
Taking full advantage of XVA? I mean that seems a very confident thing to say right off the bat for launch TP games. The Assassin's Creed crap put me off bothering with this but these Tweets have drawn me back in.
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I assume that "Full advantage of the console" means they've optimized the games to run on an SSD, enabled some sort of RT and increased the resolution/framerate to 4k/60, if possible. I doubt we'll see games pushing the XSX to the limit.
 
psorcerer said:
I'm pretty sure that Cerny's "2GB in 0.27 sec" is a random read number. Judging by the patent they have for SSD they made a lot of steps to actually bring random and sequential read speeds to be the same.
Obviously that doesn't mean you can read bytes all over. But if typical 64K page is used (same page size in the XBSX Velocity).
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It's honestly crazy that it's going to push such figures.
 
TBiddy said:
I assume that "Full advantage of the console" means they've optimized the games to run on an SSD, enabled some sort of RT and increased the resolution/framerate to 4k/60, if possible. I doubt we'll see games pushing the XSX to the limit.
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Not even sure about RT to be honest, unless the game in question's been given a substantial overhaul.
A previous poster (I forget who, apologies) mentioned certain issues with RT and the LOD and I think just plonking it on a game that's built around the Jaguar cores will create issues.
 
Oddspeak said:
I don't know if I like the idea of these "optimized for next-gen" badges.

Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but when I see them, I just think, "oh, so the last gen port of this game (if it has one) probably performs like shit."

I'm getting Vietnam flashbacks to Shadow of Mordor on PS3 and 360.
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Not to mention that it just reinforces the X has no good 1st party exclusives narratives if everything is basically a last gen port and not much new is shown. I have no intention of buying an X but i'm hoping to see some new 3rd party next gen goodness. I like ports and BC and making them look better but it shouldn't be a primary focus of a next gen showcase....
 
TBiddy said:
I assume that "Full advantage of the console" means they've optimized the games to run on an SSD, enabled some sort of RT and increased the resolution/framerate to 4k/60, if possible. I doubt we'll see games pushing the XSX to the limit.
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I would agree but the second Tweet doubles down and says the games are built for....
 
rntongo said:
Yes the PS5 SSD is significantly faster, but the numbers we have now point to a decomp ratio of 2.0 on the XSX(2.4-4.8)and Cerny used 1.5 in the presentation(~7.5GB/s). That's why it's 8-9GB/s and not say 11GB/s for the PS5.

For the texture streaming the go read about sampler feedback streaming on the XSX or read the tweets from the developers.
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That would be 8.25.
 
Such a weird SSD size for PS5. I take it PS5 OS will take-up some of that space too. What was stopping Sony from just doing a 1TB SSD instead? It can't add that much cost, can it?
 
Bo_Hazem said:
Sony will hit near 22GB/s mark occasionally as Cerny stated, they're just saving it for another time. It's funny that they even deleted their compressed figures in their official blog to prepare for their optimal sucker punch.

472334418.jpg
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MS definitely got wind of Sony's specs reveal that's they went horns blaring saying "fixed clocks" "fixed clocks" and seeing how the actual raw speed of the ssd is more than 200% that of SX, they included the compressed figures, just to mitigate the massive gap in it. Compression is quite variable depending on the original data. Why do you even say compressed data?

MS is focusing too much on "defeating" Sony. Saying that people want MS to be transparent and honest. Lol. People want amazing games.
 
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THE:MILKMAN said:
I would agree but the second Tweet doubles down and says the games are built for....
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She's a marketing person - always take it with a grain of salt.

Kusarigama said:
MS definitely got wind of Sony's specs reveal that's they went horns blaring saying "fixed clocks" "fixed clocks" and seeing how the actual raw speed of the ssd is more than 200% that of SX, they included the compressed figures, just to mitigate the massive gap in it. Compression is quite variable depending on the original data.
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Sony also showed the compressed figures though.
 
Vae_Victis said:


I'm a bit confused as to what this actually means. "Optimized" as opposed to what? Running through backwards compatibility alone?

Wouldn't that in the end just mean "this game can run on XSX natively"; as in, any game ever released for any console does?
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Two options.

1st: The games are for XB1(X) too, running better on series X. Thats the reason they wrote "optimized" and not "made for".
2nd: Some of them are next-gen games and "optimized" means an optimization for XSX (synonymous as they were optimized for the PS5).

No matter which one is true, IMO one (or maybe both) are and at the end it's just marketing speech.
 
Kusarigama said:
MS definitely got wind of Sony's specs reveal that's they went horns blaring saying "fixed clocks" "fixed clocks" and seeing how the actual raw speed of the ssd is more than 200% that of SX, they included the compressed figures, just to mitigate the massive gap in it. Compression is quite variable depending on the original data.
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I would just need the added SSD to trasfer games smoothly in and out of the main SSD. I won't waste my time playing through an SSD that's priced as much as the console itself and yet weaker. Of course, XSX can only dream of those speeds, but that's not a concern to them as XB1/Lockhart/PC are already anchoring them.
 
rntongo said:
It's honestly crazy that it's going to push such figures.
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A 2 year old NVME drive can hit over 3GB/s even with 4k random reads if you are willing to give up enough CPU for it (and it takes a LOT).
On the consoles - I/O software stack will be orders of magnitude more efficient, there's accelerators to take workload off of CPU and games have no business doing reads as small as 4k. So yes - I expect the advertised 'raw' numbers to be quite sustainable.

The post-decompression is something to be a lot more skeptical about - as that will be variable depending on data-source, regardless of hardware performance.
 
Bo_Hazem said:
I would just need the added SSD to trasfer games smoothly in and out of the main SSD. I won't waste my time playing through an SSD that's priced as much as the console itself and yet weaker. Of course, XSX can only dream of those speeds, but that's not a concern to them as XB1/Lockhart/PC are already anchoring them.
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I suspect that'll be the main upgrade path for 95% of folk, aye.
As I understood it**, you can use a substandard* SSD in the expansion and just use it as storage to transfer games to and from internal. Be a lot cheaper.

*relatively
**I'm using this term far too much and it's making me want to kick myself in the dick
 
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Brudda26 said:
better start up sound
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I was expecting that to be the entire chime sound before I clicked the video, I was t where when I didn't hear it I was disappointed until those last few seconds
Vae_Victis said:


I'm a bit confused as to what this actually means. "Optimized" as opposed to what? Running through backwards compatibility alone?

Wouldn't that in the end just mean "this game can run on XSX natively"; as in, any game ever released for any console does?
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The NEW "World Premiere" meme
 
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Handy Fake said:
I suspect that'll be the main upgrade path for 95% of folk, aye.
As I understood it**, you can use a substandard* SSD in the expansion and just use it as storage to transfer games to and from internal. Be a lot cheaper.

*relatively
**I'm using this term far too much and it's making me want to kick myself in the dick
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Yes, that' how I look at it. Some people like to keep all their games playable. To me, I usually never touch the game after finishing it, except for the usual MP or so. 2TB HDD has been an overkill to me while 500GB not enough this gen. So ideally I would love to know if we can shift "less-used" games out to the external SSD and easily shift them in to the main SSD. To me, it took 11 hours to save my PS4 games on another 2TB, so instead it was better to just transfer the save files alone and download 1-2 games while sleeping that I would really spend my time playing, and download the rest later. Of course, I'm speaking about 16Mbps ADSL shit, should upgrade to fiber when available within the next 1-3 months.

The best solution is having the option to make a partition inside the main SSD to compensate for the slower NVMe without all the hassle and using it temporarily to run the game indirectly from the slower NVMe. Some waiting time expected to load/offload indeed.
 
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Bo_Hazem said:
Yes, that' how I look at it. Some people like to keep all their games playable. To me, I usually never touch the game after finishing it, except for the usual MP or so. 2TB HDD has been an overkill to me while 500GB not enough this gen. So ideally I would love to know if we can shift "less-used" games to the external SSD and easily shift them in to the main SSD. To me, it took 11 hours to save my PS4 games on another 2TB, so instead it was better to just transfer the save files alone and download 1-2 games while sleeping that I would really spend my time playing, and download the rest later. Of course, I'm speaking about 16Mbps ADSL shit, should upgrade to fiber when available within the next 1-3 months.

The best solution is having the option to make a partition inside the main SSD to compensate for the slower NVMe without all the hassle and using it temporarily to run the game indirectly from slower NVMe. Some waiting time expected to load/offload indeed.
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Sounds about right to me chief, aye.
 
THE:MILKMAN said:
I get that and the first Tweet was fine. They said optimized and could've used 'improved' or 'upgraded' and all would be reasonable. Instead marketing come in and set expectations far too high.
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That's how marketing works, as you know. Just look at how Sony expertly uses terms such as "cache scrubbers", "coherency engine", "tempest", which in turn has been used over and over everywhere on Twitter and on messageboards, even though very few people actually know how that works. It's just like "Velocity Architecture", "DLI", "DirectStorage".

It's marketing and people are falling for it.
 
ksdixon said:
Such a weird SSD size for PS5. I take it PS5 OS will take-up some of that space too. What was stopping Sony from just doing a 1TB SSD instead? It can't add that much cost, can it?
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12 channels, 12 Chips thats why it is the size it is. 12 channels gives instant loading and faster bandwidth effecitively, thast why they say 22 GBS. the other numbers are Sony playing nice with the specs to help the expansion port, dont be fooled ........

Only option would of been for sony to do double the size SSD with 12 channels.

XSX is a 4 channel card, 16 chips. PC SSD cards are now 4 channel.
 
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TBiddy said:
That's how marketing works, as you know. Just look at how Sony expertly uses terms such as "cache scrubbers", "coherency engine", "tempest", which in turn has been used over and over everywhere on Twitter and on messageboards, even though very few people actually know how that works. It's just like "Velocity Architecture", "DLI", "DirectStorage".

It's marketing and people are falling for it.
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Except all those 3 words Sony use describe real custom hardware (not present on MS machine), while MS words describe software APIs. The thing is, Sony have all the software APIs too, except they dont invent fancy names in order to bloat the feature list of their machine.
 
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Physiognomonics said:
Except all those 3 words Sony use describe real custom hardware silicon (not present on MS machine), while MS words describe software APIs. The thing is, Sony have all the software APIs too, except they dont invent fancy names in order to bloat the feature list of their machine.
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You're right. Obviously "Tempest" isn't a fancy name invented for the occasion, it's a very technical term that precisely describes that exact feature.....

Also, Velocity Architecture is way more than just a software API. How is that not common knowledge by now?

Edit:

And no, you're right. There's no "Tempest" in the XSX, but instead there's Project Acoutics which isn't on the PS5. Holy shit. Bombs have been dropped.
 
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geordiemp said:
But HZD engine already streams the game world, all they have to do for HZD2 is take advantage of the crazy SSD.

I think next gen will be on us by Xmas this year.
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ID7 also streams assets pretty well. Snowdrop makes a magnificent use of Quixel technology (or similar LIDAR scanning tech). UE4 has tech in place, etc... I know that companies have been preparing technologically for the shift. But are game designers ready for it, too? I'm not that optimistic but maybe it's just me. If I get floored by HZD2 gameplay soon, I won't complain and will be happy to be wrong.
 
TBiddy said:
You're right. Obviously "Tempest" isn't a fancy name invented for the occasion, it's a very technical term that precisely describes that exact feature.....

Also, Velocity Architecture is way more than just a software API. How is that not common knowledge by now?
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velocity architecture hardware=old AMD partial resident textures.
 
JerryinSoCal said:
His tweet is kind of silly, the whole point of the event tomorrow is to show 3rd party XSX games so why would there be anything not optimized for XSX? .
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The logo is just a fancy way to say a game that runs on current generation will have a free(probably) enhancement patch for SX. We'll have to get used about it for at least two years.
 
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TBiddy said:
You're right. Obviously "Tempest" isn't a fancy name invented for the occasion, it's a very technical term that precisely describes that exact feature.....
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To me there is a difference between giving a chip a codename (Tempest, Xenos, Emotion Engine) and giving a fancy name to a collection of things. The former makes discussing the hardware easier, because everybody know what is meant by the term. The later makes discussing more difficult, because the term is ambigious in what it includes.

TBiddy said:
Also, Velocity Architecture is way more than just a software API. How is that not common knowledge by now?
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Then what exactly is the "Velocity Architecture"? To me it seems to be a fancy name for a standard NVMe SSD, a compression block and a DMA controller. Maybe the term also included the DirectStorage API.
 
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FeiRR said:
Redesigning engines and then game architectures around the new paradigm will take more than a year or so that devs have had so far with next gen devkits. We're talking about improvements which cannot be simulated on PC hardware this time. That's why I expect the cross gen transition period to be very visible too. In five years we'll be laughing how poor those titles we're going to see today will look.
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It shouldn't take that much. Every engine and development tool already streams assets from the HDD. What it'll take time is to design a game that lefts behind 140 million users. But that's more a business choice.
 
I recall that coreteks guy finding the marketing terms very amusing. He suspects that both Tempest Engine and Project Acoustics actually are PR talk for AMD's old True Audio tech.
 
FeiRR said:
Yes, I believe in progress. I want to play games which introduce new mechanics, new ways to play them, new quality of interaction with the environment, new NPC systems which are more life-like. I want them to load fast, join friends in MP or coop in seconds rather than minutes. I want my game to be ready when I have that little precious time to entertain myself, instead of wasting most of it on patches and installs. Higher resolution, framerate and texture quality are also nice things but those are my secondary interests. If you prefer to play older games for the next couple of years, Xbox is the probably the best place for it. And also exactly why I have no interest in that hardware.
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This is just spreading FUD, because you have no proof at all that the XSX won't introduce new ways to play, new NPC systems, etc. "Joining friends in MP or coop in seconds rather than minutes" Where do you even get this from? "pie_tears_joy:

We'll wait on the launch games, and hopefully for you there will be games in the launch lineup of the PS5 that weren't possible on the XSX. Otherwise you were completely wrong which is what I expect, but let's wait.
 
rntongo said:
You intentionally misunderstood my point. SSD controllers are highly custom and we should expect the PS5's and XSX's to be different.

Much of NAND flash's performance is determined by the underlying controller, and companies aren't willing to lift the lid too far on how they do what they do, lest they hand a competitor an advantage

You can read the linked article to figure this out.
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I'm not saying that they are the same. I'm just saying it's difficult to assume secret features in each and compare the two to state that one is better than the other. It's easier to have discussions with actual rumors and information that Microsoft and Sony gives it.

It's like if I said that Sonys SSD has a trilinear hyposporadic transducer in it without any actual information to back it up.

I don't think it's good discussion to discuss secret features that are just pulled out of nowhere. There needs to be some source of that information otherwise it ends up being a discussion of tech that may even be made up.

I already read through the article and while informative it doesn't really tell us what Microsoft and Sony have in their SSDs. For that a better source is the manufacturer themselves.

images
 
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