Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
Like initial loading time or during actual gameplay?
Can we now agree that there is no Secret Sauce Drive?
- Thread starter SuperLupeRap
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
2k has said that NBA 2k21 is supposed to lead in under 2 seconds, or something like that. Will be a nice measurement with XsX (multiplat game, obviously)
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
If you were to show how I would not poopoo it... or discuss it/disagree with you in other terms.
Ar¢tos
Member
The only reason I haven't been able to finish GTA V on ps4 is because of the nearly 5 min initial loading. I have no patience for that when I like to play in 30 min segments. (i alternate gaming with reading to prevent getting bored and I don't want to leave the console on while I'm reading)
pasterpl
Member
VN1X
Banned
What a shiitake!
Psykodad
Banned
I stand corrected on that game then.kena will be also On PS4
Still, don't see it running at the same fidelity.
Trueblakjedi
Member
Ugh. This is so tiring.
If for example the PS5 with compression can transfer an 8 MB texture in 1 second then the XSX with compression can only transfer 4.8M of that texture in the same second. It would need two cycles to load that 8MB. True.
But if only 40% of the texture map is necessary to display, and the XSX only loads that 40% instead of the 8MB then its only having to transfer 3.2MB in that one second.
You will end up displaying the same texture on the screen, within the same time parameter with left over I/O still remaining on the XSX.
You get it now?
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
I'm expecting it to be like the PS3, Series X might win on multiplats but there will be exclusives on PS5 that are jaw-dropping.
DrAspirino
Banned
Trueblakjedi
Member
I fully anticipate jaw dropping exclusive PS5 games. I expect that as a function of their studio talent which is currently unmatched.
I also fully expect jaw dropping XSX exclusives now that they've acquired talent with the experience, tools, and money to create incredible experiences and the hardware to bring it to life.
Let's wait for July.
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Psykodad
Banned
Did I ever say otherwise?
What I'm saying, is that if both only need to display that 40% you mentioned, but due to all the other requirements, it could result in XSX needing to lower the quality of said texture even more, or apply tricks like that elevator, they'll just run that "even lower" texture at a higher res than PS5.
In a very specific example. There are probably countless other examples to illustrate the benefit the PS5 could bring over XSX, just as how XSX is more powerful than PS5 so able to render st a higher resolution or have higher fps.
Do you get it?
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Trueblakjedi
Member
My friend what I'm saying is that although the raw numbers say that PS5 can access twice the resources of XSX, XSX uses efficient techniques to try to match. You cant just use 4.8 vs 8.5.
Thats all.
VN1X
Banned
Psykodad
Banned
It goes both ways. XSX higher tflops doesn't negate PS5's SSD benefits.
On that note, I'm just going to make a more elaborate post, because apart from this cat and mouse game, I'm also genuinely curious.
Let's say we have a game that takes place outside of that wide open area in the UE5 demo.
PS5 and XSX.
When turning around as a player, the game has to load a lot of data to prevent pop-in and keep the graphical fidelity consistent.
PS5 can move twice as much data as XSX, so it can easily keep up and even outdo XSX.
So, logically speaking, to keep up with PS5, XSX has to either lower graphical fidelity (i.e. texture quality and whatnot), find a way to hide the extra loading of data, or suffer pop-in.
Then you'd have the difference in GPU, so XSX can run everything at a higher res, like native 4k vs 1440p on PS5, as well as implement better ray-tracing (which I assume will take out a chunk of XSX' poweradvantage).
And yes, that means that XSX performs better than PS5, but PS5 will be able to do stuff that XSX just can't.
Now, my understanding of hardware is limited, so feel free to correct me on this, but from everything I've read and heard so far (from Cerny, to devs, to discussions on gaf), this seems to be what seperates PS5 and XSX.
And this is what's going to be the result as devs learn of new ways to develop their games and make full use of the switch to SSDs.
Like I said, feel free to educate me on this if I'm missing something, would be appreciated actually.
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Sony dropped the ball yesterday, where is that leap over hell blade 2 or over that UE5 tech demo , most of this stuff looked PS4 pro + even horizon zero dawn 2 which is made in my country , which I am proud of .Sure sure... virtual texturing as the mythical invention of newspaper, only possible on XSX, and developers not uploading portions of textures or selected mip levels only on PS2(on a platform where you were DMA-ing to the rasteriser everything by hand... and yes I do mean uploading only the required mip levels and not the entire chain)
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mercclass
Member
Sure they did they showed GeOW and Minecraft. You forgot about them as well? I don't blame ya.
thelastword
Banned
How are you judging that OP? You never gave any breakdown why you think so in the OP...…It may seem like Series X can obtain similar visuals, but will they run the same, will they have the same texture complexity, will they run with LODS as sustained. The quick web-swinging in Spiderman, will they be able to do that on Series X at the same fidelity. What about loadtimes. There are lots you don't know OP. A game in motion is critical as to what it retains in realtime. In any case, Faceoffs will be very interesting for these consoles. But before you go claiming such OP, MS has to at least match or impress folks with visuals from their first party as what we've seen in the Sony conference. Their last game showing was not entirely convincing in the least bit.
jimbojim
Banned
Did you saw level switching in Ratchet? Also, soon we should see a Horizon 2 gameplay with vastly big level
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Dolomite
Member
Pretty sure they should gears( not a new game or engine) a few weeks earlier than the Inside Xbox may event. July, when they bring Halo, Hellblade (fingers crossed), Rumored Fable and other announced titles I'm sure we'll have a better comparison. At least a better idea of Sony 1st party line up vs XGS
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I am not sure what a cinematic running on a PC and a tech demo is supposed to be surpassed by prelaunch games at this stage...
That's what people predicted here for months , even more after MS may event , don't shoot the messenger.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
?
Psykodad
Banned
RAM is still required for the GPU right?
But the way Cerny explained it, their SSD takes away a lot of the required use of RAM for the loading of all the data on screen, so all that saved RAM can be used for other tasked.
Because the way he explained it, is that typically RAM is being used to store the data they "might" need, but that isn't necessary y anymore, because the SSDs are so fast they can skip that step.
But like I said, if I'm missing something, feel free to explain.
(that isn't a dig at anyone
)
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Same reason CPU's have caches despite RAM being there, etc...
xPikYx
Member
Exactly what is the point of showcasing this if it is not the level of graphic we are gonna see in 2/3 years time from that
quickwhips
Member
Do you lose the ...when you get frustrated?
the ssd was not being used to its full potential. wheres the cinema quality assets, 8k textures, etc? some of the texture specially the grass on gran turismo 7 looked like ps3 level stuff. give it time not every company is EPIC enough to make an awesome engine that takes full advantage of the ssd.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I already mentioned skyrim, here is a Uncharted 4 cutscene compared to gameplay
no "orders of magnitude better" maybe in another cutscene but that means not "every cutscene"
dont want to be picky, but now we are talking about comparing "exact same level of fidelity" so now whe are talking about no difference or differences that can range from added filters to huge amount of extra shaders or double or triple amount of polygons per character, so you agree its not "orders of magnitude better" and "for every case"?
Those are both cutscenes. I'm not sure what to pick out here.
Trueblakjedi
Member
Those raw numbers dont matter if you are able to get similar quality assets to the screen in time.
Let me take another stab at this with a different metaphor since the math I used didn't land.
Let's say we have two delivery trucks. Same size but one is twice as fast as the other.
If they can both deliver 10 chickens to the store, the faster truck can ostensibly deliver double the chickens in the same time the other truck can.
But, what if the slower truck optimizes the chicken parts necessary for that days delivery.
So instead of delivering 10 whole chickens, they cut up the chickens (SFS) and pack them smartly (direct storage and compression).
They can now deliver 20+ wings, 20+breast, and 20+ legs in the same volume and still have space left over for gizzard and necks.
Efficient packing and reduced waste for delivering whole chickens.
So while the other truck can deliver the whole chickens twice in the same time frame, the slower truck has delivered all the pieces of all the chicken necessary to match those two trips.
Does that make sense?
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DragoonWalker
Member
PS3 had cell gimmick and was laughing stock early gen until Uncharted 2. Early PS2 games looked worse than Dreamcast despite power. Then games like FFX arrived. History repeats itself.
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Lethal01
Member
It was under two second of leading, just like in the trailer.
Psykodad
Banned
Here's the thing though, PS5 can do exactly the same as what you're saying with the 20+ wings, 20+breast, and 20+ legs in the same volume and still have space left over for gizzard and necks, and then add 20+ more of each.
Or add 20+ breast/wings/legs of ducks on top of the chicken parts.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
This doesn't matter if the storage unit for the chicken has no where to put the extra parts or doesn't need the extra parts. Theres only so much chicken they need and can store and eventually being able to get so much chicken doesn't matter.
(btw I am working on a response to you but Its lengthy.)
Psykodad
Banned
But that's where game design comes into play, hence why all the devs are excited.
LeVictorien
Banned
Wooo I agree... these demos look a generation beyond what we've seen thus far. But I think next gen will be able to pull something similar, devs need the time to pull this off.
Stuart360
Member
lol i posted a vid of that Megacity demo in that old 'Next gen graphics expectations' thread on here, and so many people were saying how they expect much better lol. I'd love them to say the same after yesterdays showing.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
No one is denying that.
But they are still retrained by how fast an image can render. No one is debating that designs wont change but being able to stream assets faster on PS5 isn't going to change how an image is rendered fundamentally. It will still be limited by CPU and GPU bandwidth. If there was an unlimited amount of CPU, GPU and memory bandwidth then a faster SSD in this case could make a huge difference in theory, but they are limited by those things. Which is where compression comes in. Depending on the GPU and drivers etc the compression allows more to be stored so more can be rendered etc.
Where the story is getting lost in how video games are made and how images are rendered.
Take God of War for example. There is a ton of time in that game you are simply doing nothing but running and thats deliberate because they wanted to make that game one long shot and make it feel like you are never hindered by technology. When in reality, the reason there is so much time of just doing nothing is because of that technology and its limits.
Games will forever be made with trying to predict what they player is going to do. Which translates storing things into RAM. Storing whatever you need into RAM so it can be accessed as quickly possible. But whenever the developer eaither guesses wrong or simply doesn't guess due to a plethora of different possibilities (running out of ram, lack of polish etc) is when things start to go wrong.
The ability to load assets much faster will help with this, but it will not eliminate having to guess what the player is doing.
So to go to your example of a previous post:
"Let's say we have a game that takes place outside of that wide open area in the UE5 demo.
PS5 and XSX.
When turning around as a player, the game has to load a lot of data to prevent pop-in and keep the graphical fidelity consistent.
PS5 can move twice as much data as XSX, so it can easily keep up and even outdo XSX.
So, logically speaking, to keep up with PS5, XSX has to either lower graphical fidelity (i.e. texture quality and whatnot), find a way to hide the extra loading of data, or suffer pop-in."
Your theory is actually correct if you games had unlimited amounts of system resources and could render anything they wanted at any time. But they don't. The developer still has to guess a lot of things because they have to try and anticipate whats going to be rendered.(this is also why tech demos are extremly disingenuous as they are extremely controlled environments and represent none of the challenges of making a game.) Which means that before the player were to even turn around the developer would need to anticipate this happening. The engine is already loading what needs to be seen meaning if the game is well optimized you shouldn't see lower quality assets in any capacity because each SSD is more than capable or fetching what it needs.
Which then I know begs the question, well if PS5 can fetch it quicker doesn't that mean it can put more on screen before Series X can? In theory once again the answer is yes, but only if you had unlimited resources. The engine still has to render everything meaning the developer doesn't want to leave the fetching of assets to chance. And they are still limited but what the GPU can render.
PS5 games made only for PS5 will have an advantage as the developer can focus on loading as many assets they want on screen, but they will once again be limited by what can be rendered in the pipeline.
But even after all this being said, Microsoft has their own I/O solutions but the details aren't exactly known, but its safe to say that it will make the fetching of assets faster and while it is a software solution (i think) vs a hardware solution, the goal of each to is fetch assets quicker, but not to stop things like LOD and pop in, its to being able to think about your games without having to design around assets steaming at all, like how God of War has you doing a lot of nothing for long parts of the game.
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LeVictorien
Banned
People expected much better? Lmao! We'll see but I think this could be achieved. Looking back at UE5 demo, streaming so much details really fast is a possibility. What people need to realize is that a full game with this fidelity can't be done in 2 years, it needs time. I've seen people asking to see games in development even if they were in early stages. Ofc devs are not going to do that. People don't know jack about game development and they always assume what they see is what they'll get and then complain. Next year or in two years we'll start to see things and concepts we thought not possible with these consoles.
polybius80
Member
one is gameplay, in U4 there is a part where you can move in the house and explore it, one image is that, and there is also a cutscene after Nathan plays crash bandicoot and talks with Elena, that is the other image, the graphics dont change between the two pictures and if there is a change obviously it is not "orders of magnitude"
VFXVeteran
Banned
That's a special scene where your character has limited use. That's not the normal gameplay like when he climbs, shoots, etc..
Stuart360
Member
This was the vid i posted -
And yeah so many were saying its not impressive and that it would be the minimum they expect from next gen games. People never learn lol.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
An advantage is still an advantageSure... no hint of jealousy and not hurt one bit by having a moderate advantage in GPU FLOPS and the systems being neck and neck with each having some advantage and not the BeAsTTTtT!!!!! you though you would get... but keep milking everything in the XSX specs sheet while joking about PS5 fanboys and their SSD
polybius80
Member
so, now there are "special" scenes
so first was "every cutscene" and "orders of magnitude different" and now there are "special" scenes
different games work different that is why I told you that you cant generalize how they work
gameplay is an ambiguous concept there is no definition of how much mechanics you put in gameplay, only that there should be some form of mechanics, that is because different games have different mechanics, in U4 you can move in the scene and there are physics that make your character stop that is gameplay as there are hiden geometry and code running to calculate collision and movement based on player input as well as reactions and bone movements in the model(and uncharted use very complex models), just as in parkour scenes or shooting scenes the scene also is smaller than others we dont know but there is no indication that more enabled mechanincs may affect performance there, they may affect what the scene is supposed to be as you wont be shooting enemies in that scene or climbing inside the house so its normal they restrict them(there is a part where you shoot with a toy gun) and the models are the same in other gameplay scenes too or at least they dont look "orders of magintude" lower, maybe you are confusing them with a lower LOD model, its common in games to display characters in the distance with simpler models and the engine interchange them with more complex models when they are closer to camera
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LeVictorien
Banned
That's mighty impressive. Add AI, different animated objects, glowing materials, reflective material, glass, particles, physics and post process effects and watch next gen consoles struggle.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Maybe you should've checked your source before hand. Just a little friendly advice, especially carrying that custom tag.
jakinov
Member
From PS4 Uncharted's photo modes:
Compared to (a higher resolution version of your cutscne):
If I put the former in a movie people would probably say it looks really bad and like a video game. If I put the latter one in a movie, people would probably say it's beautiful or say nothing as there would be nothing to complain about. "Orders of magnitude" is subjective and it's hard to quantify graphical improvement but I would argue that when you have something that you can probably pass off in an animated movie and something that's arguably noticeably from a video game then you have a significant gap in graphics quality.
(Also, I didn't cherry-pick these screenshots, I googled, Uncharted photo mode pics and picked screenshots where you could see faces as they are focal points and the more complex than objects and foliage; to help really see the difference)
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