Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Elog said:
Looking at the data that I have seen power consumption increases exponentially for 256-bit instructions compared to 128-bit. If that is true there is no real advantage at all to use it in an environment that is limited by power and thermal such as a console.
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Yeah, it makes way more sense to shunt SIMD work over to the GPU anyway.
 
NXGamer said:
Again, I have not said NO AVX2 or even other Instructions such as FMA which have all been around for donkeys. What Mark said is correct of course, it can and will support AVX2 and he also stated that the extent of that COULD cause the CPU to throttle back.

From the block it is clear changes here have been made and that may be with less Ints, reduced width or something else. The point is that within the system and the SDK they can "focus" developers to use the functions to the best method of the system and some of the previously bound CPU workloads may no longer be limited to it.
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Off topic, but why didn't you make a video about the Demon's Souls Remake? Like those great attention to detail vids. You don't like the style?
 
Lysandros said:
So the term native 256-bit instructions isn't related to FPU width?
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The term 256-bit is based on the Data Bus and/or Register Size and/or Address Size, native is simply is the value of the computation to be worked on, i,e, a 256-bit vector supported by the CPU/ALU. The Jaguar from the PS4/X1 supports AVX and 256-bit SIMD work which would be a stored set of data (8x32 | 4x64) that is then processed by a single OP (Add /Multiply/FMA).

The only question is how many of these OPS remain or how are the Registers constructed to support it.
 
NXGamer said:
The term 256-bit is based on the Data Bus and/or Register Size and/or Address Size, native is simply is the value of the computation to be worked on, i,e, a 256-bit vector supported by the CPU/ALU. The Jaguar from the PS4/X1 supports AVX and 256-bit SIMD work which would be a stored set of data (8x32 | 4x64) that is then processed by a single OP (Add /Multiply/FMA).

The only question is how many of these OPS remain or how are the Registers constructed to support it.
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Jaguar doesn't support native 256bits... it supports native 128bits.
Just like Zen 2 doesn't support native 512bits but it can be done with 2x256.

Native is a key word here.
 
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NXGamer said:
The term 256-bit is based on the Data Bus and/or Register Size and/or Address Size, native is simply is the value of the computation to be worked on, i,e, a 256-bit vector supported by the CPU/ALU. The Jaguar from the PS4/X1 supports AVX and 256-bit SIMD work which would be a stored set of data (8x32 | 4x64) that is then processed by a single OP (Add /Multiply/FMA).

The only question is how many of these OPS remain or how are the Registers constructed to support it.
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I see, thanks for taking time to reply.
 
NXGamer said:
OK, you want an argument, lets have a conversation and to help lets bring Mark in on it.

After I had that chat I went back and re-watched the video again to see what MC was saying and I quote.
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You should just use the YouTube transcript feature lol, it's easier to quote people.

As such ALL he is saying is that the process now is deterministic and even though an engine MAY need 256-bit instructions (not just AVX) it may be low to medium use. Nothing has changed here from that statement, other than the Die shot shows that some sacrifices here seem based on that being a lower level than other areas, which is exactly what he said.
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He says.. "or are they?" coyly suggesting that the architecture enables less than moderate usage.

Supporting 256-bit instructions IS NOT the same thing as supporting ALL 256-bit instructions.
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Sure, thanks for the correction. All AVX is 256 bit.. including AVX1... but all 256 bit instructions on X86 are AVX.

I'm still confused why you think a Zen2 based CPU would not support the full AVX2 instruction set.. that was supported by Zen+ before it.. and Zen before that..
 
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ethomaz said:
Jaguar doesn't support native 256bits... it supports native 128bits.
Just like Zen 2 doesn't support native 512bits but it can be done with 2x256.

Native is a key word here.
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Not to get hung up on, the CPU can as it has a 256-bit bus for example and thus can process a 256-bit data set and operand. IF they perform this with a dual cycle OR they choose to remove some of the instructions is all mute outside of console wars.

This console is not going to be encrypting SHA data algos, or compressing/Uncompressing on the CPU as they have dedicated block for this. The real focus is using the CPU for this type of work will affect the overall system frequency and be unproductive. If you are packing a huge amount of SIMD work in your game code, pack it up, shift to the GPU as compute job or in the future a GE job.

Lysandros said:
I see, thanks for taking time to reply.
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More than welcome, and thanks for the questions, always good. I am not and have never been a font of all knowledge or to believe any appeals to authority. I love and thrive on conversation and discussion, god knows I have made enough mistakes over the years to learn a great deal, the only way.
IntentionalPun said:
You should just use the YouTube transcript feature lol, it's easier to quote people.



He says.. "or are they?" coyly suggesting that the architecture enables less than moderate usage.



Sure, thanks for the correction. All AVX is 256 bit.. including AVX1... but all 256 bit instructions on X86 are AVX.

I'm still confused why you think a Zen2 based CPU would not support the full AVX2 instruction set.. that was supported by Zen+ before it.. and Zen before that..
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I want to stress I do not know what the have chosen to do, but we all know that Mark and the entire Engineering team along with the wealth of information from the software studios will know what is and is not needed.

All I am saying is that a Zen based Desktop needs to support a much wider and richer set of OPS and data that covers is eventual use, Desktop, Server, Web Farms, Databases etc etc. A console has a finite level of functions it can and will perform PLUS it has a closed environment and development path that is controlled and guided by Sony. As such when cost cutting and or custom changes are made they are always a trade off and dropping the expense of an array of AVX2 OPS seems like a fair sacrifice when you have such a powerful APU with hUMA based memory set-up.
 
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Dabaus said:
The SE Rumor is a fanboy fever dream that will never happen and the bluepoint one will be a coulda, shoulda, woulda, like almost everyother second party developer sony has worked with.
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We're going to see more aggressive aquistions down the line in the gaming sphere from them. We're just not going to hear about any of them until they're close to finalising.
 
Elog said:
Maybe I am the only one but I can read Cerny's speech as if he is saying that 'zen2 supports 256-bit natively', 'it consumes a lot of power', 'problem' and 'we decided to go in a very different direction'.

Could one not interpret that as if they stripped out the native 256-but code, i.e. that it is not supported natively but instead made into 2 clks of 128-bit code? Or maybe Sony has confirmed somewhere else that 256-bit code is supported natively?
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No because he literally says the PS5 supports 256 bit instructions.

The "different direction" is a lead in to their variable frequency strategy. It's why he says "or are they?" (suggesting that you CAN use 256-bit instructions more than minimally, enabled by the variable frequency tech.)
 
IntentionalPun said:
No because he literally says the PS5 supports 256 bit instructions.

The "different direction" is a lead in to their variable frequency strategy. It's why he says "or are they?" (suggesting that you CAN use 256-bit instructions more than minimally, enabled by the variable frequency tech.)
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I have no doubt it supports the 256-bit instruction set - question is if it is natively or emulated by the 'normal' 128-bit instructions over more than one clock.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
That's how I read it, tbh.

His statement, 'we decided to go in a very different direction', is the key point to focus on. Adding in VF isn't a "very different direction", it's a band aid to the problem of AVX2 usage being so power hungry.

Seems like double-pumping 128-bit AVX to support AVX2 is the most likely case for the PS5. At the end of the day we're talking about a 3+ billion cycles per second processor. So using two cycles to complete an AVX2 instruction isn't nearly the end of the world and probably isn't meaningful.

Given how Intel basically FUBAR'd AVX usage on PC by their fragmented support across the range of CPUs, most multiplatform devs haven't and aren't likely to make too much use of the wider CPU vector extensions.
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But how can this be a native 256-bit instruction support? This would be misleading i think, can't we say the same using the same logic for Zen 2 having native/full support for AVX-512 based on 2x256-bit/dual cycle? You can look about it, every source say that Zen 2 doesn't have native support for AVX-512.
 
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NXGamer said:
I want to stress I do not know what the have chosen to do, but we all know that Mark and the entire Engineering team along with the wealth of information from the software studios will know what is and is not needed.
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Of course; and Cerny outright stated 256-bit instruction set support.. something you adamantly claimed was not needed.

I just don't really know why you can't say "yeah I overstated that" lol

And yeah, to be clear, the word "native" suggests they do have the ability to run 256-bit instruction sets in one clock cycle.. as that's how that term has been used before. But.. the FPU appears missing. So it's just a tough call.

And as stated before things like compresion/decompression have their own block... and they have their own video encoding hardware too.. so if properly optimized a dev could avoid many 256-bit CPU instructions. But they are still there.
 
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IntentionalPun said:
Of course; and Cerny outright stated 256-bit instruction set support.. something you adamantly claimed was not needed.

I just don't really know why you can't say "yeah I overstated that" lol
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If I did overstate, I would day that. But it is clear now that I should have explained what I meant by the Zen 2 AVX2 extensions in that first tweet. As in Zen 2 the update to support AVX2 intrinsics rather than the dual Cycle of Zen and Zen+

The semantics are now that Native should mean 256-bit width single process, which it may be, just with a reduced ISA.
 
Elog said:
I have no doubt it supports the 256-bit instruction set - question is if it is natively or emulated by the 'normal' 128-bit instructions over more than one clock.
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But how can Cerny, the chief architect of PS5 say native if it isn't? He clearly use the term intentionally in his presentation that he spend pretty long time preparing without a doubt. This doesn't make any sense to me.
 
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NXGamer said:
Simple answer is time, I did start one and will be doing something on this soon.
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I understand, a lot of games released in a short period of time.

I asked because in my opinion Demon's Souls has the best graphics of any game, especially in terms of small details in geometry and textures. Perhaps it is more detailed than it needs to be, if that makes sense, since a lot can only be noticed in photo mode.
 
Dolodolo said:
Can you finally say something about Sony? Most are not that interested in Xbox, especially on this forum
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Being totally honest I havent gamed much with many of my friends of late because I have been spending time playing PC games that my main friends do not play mainly World of Tanks

I do plan on having a fishing trip next month with my little birdie friend and will ply him with generous amounts of alcohol and get their roadmap so to speak.
 
HeisenbergFX4 said:
Being totally honest I havent gamed much with many of my friends of late because I have been spending time playing PC games that my main friends do not play mainly World of Tanks

I do plan on having a fishing trip next month with my little birdie friend and will ply him with generous amounts of alcohol and get their roadmap so to speak.
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Do not misunderstand me. I really respect you and the information you have. It's just that it's so weird that Microsoft has so many insiders and Sony has virtually none. I don't know about Katarhsis. She says that there is Silent Hill, which is being developed by Sony Japan Studio. And as far as I understand, you haven't heard about it
 
Lysandros said:
But how can this be a native 256-bit instruction support? This would be misleading i think, can't we the say the same using the same logic for Zen 2 having native/full support for AVX-512 based on 2x256-bit/dual cycle? You can look about it, every source say that Zen 2 doesn't have native support for AVX-512.
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On second watch, I think you're right. He definitely sounds like he's saying PS5 supports 256-bit instructions natively; i.e. single-cycle execution.

I take back what I said previously.
 
Dolodolo said:
Do not misunderstand me. I really respect you and the information you have. It's just that it's so weird that Microsoft has so many insiders and Sony has virtually none. I don't know about Katarhsis. She says that there is Silent Hill, which is being developed by Sony Japan Studio. And as far as I understand, you haven't heard about it
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Is that not a American vs Japanese culture thing?
I mean Japanese are more secretive while Americans are more opened... so it easier to have leaks in a American company.
 
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I stopped listening to "insiders" along time ago. Too many things get lost in translation and he said she said nonsense. This was so clear leading up to the console launches. And after.

No offense to you HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4


Besides.........it's Xbox.
 
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3liteDragon said:

www.resetera.com

Sony spent +300 million so far this year on second party deals

Thought this was worth a separate thread. This's as of Q3 so any deals done in Q4 (Jan-March 2021) could increase this further, and since this covers a period of 7 years it means some of these projects have obviously not been announced yet.
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com
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Timed exclusives are 3rd party.

Real exclusives are 1st party if published and funded by Sony, like Returnal.

2nd party doesn't exist.
 
kyliethicc said:
Timed exclusives are 3rd party.

Real exclusives are 1st party if published and funded by Sony, like Returnal.

2nd party doesn't exist.
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They are speculation in this quote from Sony earnings.

o5iokLX.png


It is various contracts that will happen in the next 7 years with the budget of $300 million.
The contracts are mixed with development, distribution or just publishing.
It can or not be exclusives.
 
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kyliethicc said:
Timed exclusives are 3rd party.

Real exclusives are 1st party if published and funded by Sony, like Returnal.

2nd party doesn't exist.
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Agree, there's no 2nd party games. There are Only exclusive which is published by Sony or , Time exclusives which is published by 3rd party publishers.
 
Rea said:
Agree, there's no 2nd party games. There are Only exclusive which is published by Sony or , Time exclusives which is published by 3rd party publishers.
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Exactly. If it has PS Studios logo on it, its 1st party. If not, its 3rd party.

I bet that 300 million is mostly for 1st party games developed by external devs, like Returnal.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
Yeah, it makes way more sense to shunt SIMD work over to the GPU anyway.
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The GPU is a 1024 or 2048 bit vector processor, depending on how you count it (RDNA/Wave32 or GCN/Wave64). Dreamcast was considered 128-bit in comparison (SIMD capabilities in the CPU).

So yeah, it makes sense to offload heavy FP tasks there...

The FPU is more useful on PCs, due to them having a discrete component structure (CPU <- PCIe -> GPU) which increases latency. If you want low-latency physics (that actually affect the gameplay) on a PC, GPGPU isn't a good fit.

Consoles have an APU, which means both the CPU and the GPU are in the same chip, so zero latency.

IMHO, there's a chance Sony decided to cut off legacy x86 instructions (such as x87/SSE, assuming PS4 games didn't use those) or maybe they optimized the FPU layout to be more dense (for example, I remember RX 5700 having tons of blank spaces in the silicon layout, which was heavily improved upon in RDNA2). I don't think we'll find out due to NDAs.
 
Dolodolo said:
Do not misunderstand me. I really respect you and the information you have. It's just that it's so weird that Microsoft has so many insiders and Sony has virtually none. I don't know about Katarhsis. She says that there is Silent Hill, which is being developed by Sony Japan Studio. And as far as I understand, you haven't heard about it
Click to expand...

The ONLY reason I knew so much about Xbox is who I game with and my main gaming partner who plays WoW left Xbox awhile back for Blizzard

Edit to add I havent even talked to him very much as of late
 
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NXGamer said:
The semantics are now that Native should mean 256-bit width single process, which it may be, just with a reduced ISA.
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So would it be some other co-processor enabling this since PS5 seems to lack FPU (edit: smaller FPU actually, thanks Lysandros)?

What I find particularly interesting is that Cerny specifically mentions having to drop the frequency for 256 bit when the FPU from AMD is advertised as not having any pre-determined drop to frequency (meaning it's just based on thermals in a normal PC setup, not auto-dropped like with Zen).

Anyways; you definitely know more about CPUs than most. Sorry for coming across insulting.

As TheThreadsThatBindUs TheThreadsThatBindUs said sometimes it takes a while for my meds to kick in, and then they wear off in the evening lol.
 
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IntentionalPun said:
So would it be some other co-processor enabling this since PS5 seems to lack FPU?

What I find particularly interesting is that Cerny specifically mentions having to drop the frequency for 256 bit when the FPU from AMD is advertised as not having any pre-determined drop to frequency (meaning it's just based on thermals in a normal PC setup, not auto-dropped like with Zen).

Anyways; you definitely know more about CPUs than most. Sorry for coming across insulting.

As TheThreadsThatBindUs TheThreadsThatBindUs said sometimes it takes a while for my meds to kick in, and then they wear off in the evening lol.
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PS5 doesn't lack FPUs the blocks are clearly there in the die shot. The discussions were about the size.
 
kyliethicc said:
Timed exclusives are 3rd party.

Real exclusives are 1st party if published and funded by Sony, like Returnal.

2nd party doesn't exist.
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I always thought 1st party titles where developed and published by the platform owner(343i, Naughty Dog). 2nd party titles were developed by an external studio but still published by the platform owner like the latest Sackboy game. Sumo Digital isn't owned by Sony but they still developed the game Sony published it. 3rd parties are the EA, Rock*; companies that develop and publish the game on a platform they don't own. Exclusivity is another unrelated layer.
 
Negotiator said:
The GPU is a 1024 or 2048 bit vector processor, depending on how you count it (RDNA/Wave32 or GCN/Wave64). Dreamcast was considered 128-bit in comparison (SIMD capabilities in the CPU).

So yeah, it makes sense to offload heavy FP tasks there...

The FPU is more useful on PCs, due to them having a discrete component structure (CPU <- PCIe -> GPU) which increases latency. If you want low-latency physics (that actually affect the gameplay) on a PC, GPGPU isn't a good fit.

Consoles have an APU, which means both the CPU and the GPU are in the same chip, so zero latency.

IMHO, there's a chance Sony decided to cut off legacy x86 instructions (such as x87/SSE, assuming PS4 games didn't use those) or maybe they optimized the FPU layout to be more dense (for example, I remember RX 5700 having tons of blank spaces in the silicon layout, which was heavily improved upon in RDNA2). I don't think we'll find out due to NDAs.
Click to expand...

They definitely haven't cut SSE, because this saw heavy use on PS4. They need it for BC at the very least.

HeisenbergFX4 said:
The ONLY reason I knew so much about Xbox is who I game with and my main gaming partner who plays WoW left Xbox awhile back for Blizzard

Edit to add I havent even talked to him very much as of late
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Oh shit... it's Mike Ybarra!!!!
 
DarkMage619 said:
I always thought 1st party titles where developed and published by the platform owner(343i, Naughty Dog). 2nd party titles were developed by an external studio but still published by the platform owner like the latest Sackboy game. Sumo Digital isn't owned by Sony but they still developed the game Sony published it. 3rd parties are the EA, Rock*; companies that develop and publish the game on a platform they don't own. Exclusivity is another unrelated layer.
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Before Insomniac was bought by Sony, here's what they had to say (during Spider-Man development.)

Ar15lza.jpg

DZ1oHBX.jpg



The creation of 2nd party term is just a result of the numbers we use to describe the 3 ways games get made on PlayStation.

Platform holder is Sony:
Scenario A - Sony game made by Sony dev
Scenario B - Sony game made by non-Sony dev
Scenario C - non-Sony game made by non-Sony dev

Because we call Scenario A "1st party" and Scenario C "3rd party" naturally people think, 3 scenarios, so 1 2 3. 1st 2nd 3rd.

But really Scenario B is just 1st party game made by 3rd party dev. Even Sony themselves call them games made by "our 3rd party partners" and "external developers."

Thats why Sony is now using PS Studios logo to indicate all 1st party games on PS5. (And of course now MLB that is 1st party on PS4/5 but 3rd party on Xbox. Exception to the logo thing lol.)
 
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