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[Redtemplar]

David Jaffe on this situation

 

[Silent Viper]

When did I say it's a bad thing? It's not necessarily a bad thing. But smaller studios make AAA games all the time on their own.

• HouseMarque, a team of 60 people who don't even have any experience making a AAA game, just released Returnal.
• Supergiant Games , a team of 20 people, released Hades which puts most AAA games to shame.
• Bend Studios made Days Gone with a team of less than 100 people.
• Ember Labs, a team of 12 people, just released a fantastic game, Kena, that is very AAA-ish.
• 100-ish people at Sucker Punch Productions made Ghost of Tsushima, which also has an ongoing multiplayer game.
• Spider-Man PS was made by 150 developers.
• Control was developed and shipped by less than 100 people in 3 years.

It happens all the time. It is just The Initiative that could not make a game.

Sony internal studios helped Days gone. It was in development for 6 years.

Nothing wrong in Studio helping other or collaborating on a project. It happens all the time. Initiative took on a project maybe too ambitious for team of 70. So Darren pulled some folks from CD. In the end we should judge em based on the final game not who made it. If game is good then most of you will hide in bushes lol

 

[oldergamer]

I'm going out on a limb and saying MS is buying CD.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

The only thing more funnier than the concern trolling is a select few people calling out others for "concern trolling" who obviously have a history of doing the exact damn thing themselves in other threads.

It's like the developers of KOTOR Aspyr annoucing three years from now "we are going to co-develop with Remedy Entertainment".

That wouldnt bring concern, Ill probably have more faith in the project. Still freaking weird.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Sony internal studios helped Days gone. It was in development for 6 years.

Nothing wrong in Studio helping other or collaborating on a project. It happens all the time. Initiative took on a project maybe too ambitious for team of 70. So Darren pulled some folks from CD. In the end we should judge em based on the final game not who made it. If game is good then most of you will hide in bushes lol

No, actually I'd be playing and enjoying the game. No one wishes for a bad game lol.

As to the earlier part of your comment, I agree. They couldn't do it on their own so they seeked external help -- no problem. My response was to Monarch who was saying that they were never meant to make a AAA game alone -- which is wrong, because that's exactly what they set out to do.

If they later thought that they needed additional help and got it from CD, that's fine too.

 

[Heisenberg007]

and all of them outsourced work ..just like is doing the initiative.

Not all of them. And none of them brought a co-developer -- which is a difference here.

Anyway, just to clarify, I don't think this is a bad thing. If it makes for a good game, then so be it, because that's what matters in the end. Though this is a co-development job now, not a simple outsource, so our disagreement is more about the semantics.

 

[Outrunner]

Not all of them. And none of them brought a co-developer -- which is a difference here.

Anyway, just to clarify, I don't think this is a bad thing. If it makes for a good game, then so be it, because that's what matters in the end. Though this is a co-development job now, not a simple outsource, so our disagreement is more about the semantics.

Actually several of the studios you mentioned outsourced work, including Ember Labs. The issue isn't there, and there really isn't any issue at all, other than an uncommon move which is for a First Party studio to co-develop a First Party Title. This is not outsourcing.

 

[DarkMage619]

Destin Legarie's take.



I'll wait until I see some gameplay before forming an opinion. I'd image we'll see something at e3 next year.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

I thought this was a AAAA studio though.....

 

[Thabass]

Remembers Avengers.

 

[Ozriel]

.

Well thats on Microsoft for literally announcing the game with a CG trailer before anything substantial was being done in its development. IT'S ALSO their fault for waiting a whole gen to fucking invest in studios. People have literally waited a whole fucking gen for Microsoft to step the fuck up. Only thing they could do was whip out their check books.

"Microsoft is to be blamed for my fanboyish posts!!! It's on them!"

People have literally waited a whole fucking gen for Microsoft to step the fuck up. Only thing they could do was whip out their check books.

Now your seeing the difference in building studios for 20+ years , as opposed to buying them in the past couple years. Shit takes time, and looks like they need help.

the 'checkbooks' griping will always be hilarious. You think Sony paid for Deathloop, FF7R, Forspoken and FFXVI with bananas?

The Initiative doesn't 'need help'. The game was planned from day one to be built with outsourced manpower.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Has anyone considered that The Initiative is a smaller studio and they basically secured a partnership with the most talented, robust "support studio" on the planet in Crystal Dynamics?

They had two options for their AAAA game. Hire 200+ people in a relatively short period of time or work a deal with a support studio to bring Perfect Dark to life.

They chose the costlier option. As a result, they get a massive studio that's already functioning at high capacity.

This isn't bad news for the game. This is great news.

 

[Drewpee]

As soon as they were classified as a AAAA studio they were setup for failure.

Thinking you can hire a bunch of amazing people in their field and they magically work together is so short sighted imo. Personalities matter every bit as much as talent in a team setting.

Hopefully the game is fun when it releases but not a good look for Xbox studios tbh.

 

[Drewpee]

Has anyone considered that The Initiative is a smaller studio and they basically secured a partnership with the most talented, robust "support studio" on the planet in Crystal Dynamics?

They had two options for their AAAA game. Hire 200+ people in a relatively short period of time or work a deal with a support studio to bring Perfect Dark to life.

They chose the costlier option. As a result, they get a massive studio that's already functioning at high capacity.

This isn't bad news for the game. This is great news.

You don't tell everyone a new studio will be AAAA just to later say they are a robust support studio without something happening to cause the change.

I hate when companies try to insult the intellegience of the people that buy their products.

 

[reksveks]

The initiative have got 11 listings on thier site, definitely not a huge list but whom know what it really means.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

As soon as they were classified as a AAAA studio they were setup for failure.

Thinking you can hire a bunch of amazing people in their field and they magically work together is so short sighted imo. Personalities matter every bit as much as talent in a team setting.

Hopefully the game is fun when it releases but not a good look for Xbox studios tbh.

Microsoft wouldn't have OK'd this deal (super expensive) if they weren't liking what they were seeing from Perfect Dark at this point.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You don't tell everyone a new studio will be AAAA just to later say they are a robust support studio without something happening to cause the change.

I hate when companies try to insult the intellegience of the people that buy their products.

The Initiative is not a robust support studio. Crystal Dynamics is filling that role at the moment.

AAAA was a goofy marketing term that certain fanboys latched onto. The intelligent people who buy their products knew this the whole time.

 

[Drewpee]

Has anyone considered that The Initiative is a smaller studio and they basically secured a partnership with the most talented, robust "support studio" on the planet in Crystal Dynamics?

They had two options for their AAAA game. Hire 200+ people in a relatively short period of time or work a deal with a support studio to bring Perfect Dark to life.

They chose the costlier option. As a result, they get a massive studio that's already functioning at high capacity.

This isn't bad news for the game. This is great news.

You don't tell everyone a new studio will be AAAA just to later say they are a robust support studio without something happening to cause the change.

I hate when companies try to insult the intellegience of the people that buy their products.

Microsoft wouldn't have OK'd this deal (super expensive) if they weren't liking what they were seeing from Perfect Dark at this point.

The Initiative is not a robust support studio. Crystal Dynamics is filling that role at the moment.

AAAA was a goofy marketing term that certain fanboys latched onto. The intelligent people who buy their products knew this the whole time.

I like to consider myself fairly intelligent and have bought every console ever released by Microsoft so I think I fall into the category you are talking about. Throwing sly insults at people that might not see your perspective will not endear you to most people.

I've said from the beginning AAAA should have never been a marketing term, it is going to be an anchor around the neck of Initiative for every game they release.

 

[reksveks]

You don't tell everyone a new studio will be AAAA just to later say they are a robust support studio without something happening to cause the change.

Don't think you read the comment correctly, The Initiative isn't a support studio. They still have the leads and senior team members in the game's development

 

[EverydayBeast]

Alternative fps to halo makes sense.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You don't tell everyone a new studio will be AAAA just to later say they are a robust support studio without something happening to cause the change.

I hate when companies try to insult the intellegience of the people that buy their products.



I like to consider myself fairly intelligent and have bought every console ever released by Microsoft so I think I fall into the category you are talking about. Throwing sly insults at people that might not see your perspective will not endear you to most people.

I've said from the beginning AAAA should have never been a marketing term, it is going to be an anchor around the neck of Initiative for every game they release.

When they used that term (AAAA) one time I believe, we were already in an era of massive 500+ person studios who contract work to hundreds of developers around the world. We had already seen games with over 1,000 people contributing.

So AAAA was either going to dwarf those AAA size and budgets (not likely) or they just wanted to lightheartdly suggest that they were targeting the upper end of that range.

Then combine that with the fact that The Initiative never seemed to grow very big internally and it was obvious what they were talking about.

Acting like AAAA is a technical term was a mistake from the start. No big deal, but you bought into marketing hype. Happens to me sometimes too.

Edit: Also, AAAA was a great marketing term because it gets people talking about their team/game. It very clearly served its purpose and provides no tangible downside for the company. All upside, no downside is the magic bullet everyone looks for.

 

[Corndog]

I find Lara of the TR reboot one of the most annoying character ever made. And I don't think I'm the only unfortunately. I really don't get it how useful can be the CD collaboration if not in a bad way. Another fragile/humanise revisitation of a VG character? God help us.

What's annoying about the character?

 

[Genx3]

This is actually positive news but somehow it got spun into negative news.

This means that PD is now going into full production.

The Initiative is still a new studio so they don't have the man power to develop a AAA game with out some out sourcing.

Most AAA games these days out source some of the work.

 

[Corndog]

When did I say it's a bad thing? It's not necessarily a bad thing. But smaller studios make AAA games all the time on their own.

• HouseMarque, a team of 60 people who don't even have any experience making a AAA game, just released Returnal.
• Supergiant Games , a team of 20 people, released Hades which puts most AAA games to shame.
• Bend Studios made Days Gone with a team of less than 100 people.
• Ember Labs, a team of 12 people, just released a fantastic game, Kena, that is very AAA-ish.
• 100-ish people at Sucker Punch Productions made Ghost of Tsushima, which also has an ongoing multiplayer game.
• Spider-Man PS was made by 150 developers.
• Control was developed and shipped by less than 100 people in 3 years.

It happens all the time. It is just The Initiative that could not make a game.

Most of those games aren't AAA. Returnal, hades, and kena are not AAA.

 

[Corndog]

Bleeding Edge was developed by a small side team of 10 people though. Around launch, a maximum of 25 developers worked on that game.

That means around 100 people were supposedly working on Hellblade 2 since 2017 (after Hellblade launched). Since 2019, all the dev diaries have been about them doing landscapes and having their animators went through sword-fighting courses, which I think is just a waste of time and resources and a good definition of poor project management.

Ideally, that game should have been releasing in 2021 (a four-year sequel). And it was one of those games that I was super hyped for. Unfortunately, I may have to wait two or three years more before I'm able to play that game because the game still isn't in full production.

How long did last of us 2 take?

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Artoon and Feelplus were not AAA studios affiliated with another 3rd party publisher tho? Why can't you guys just admit that it's an unusual situation instead of all this damage control? It's weird.

Crystal Dynamics is not a support studio. Support studios don't get a big announcement with their logos everywhere. You will find them hidden in the credits after the game is out. This is not regular outsource work.

Feel Plus was ABSOLUTELY japanese AAA with all that talent they had and their numbers. They had nearly the entire Shadow Hearts Covenant team, and some of the best people from the original Final Fantasy VII team. People in major roles too, not just some nobodies. Feel Plus was a super strong studio. Microsoft were dumb for ever letting that team go, wherever they may be now. I believe they were also held by one of Japan's most cash flush companies at the time, AQ Interactive. I suspect Artoon was held by them as well.

Support studios don't get a big announcement with their logo? So what about the support studios that have been assisting 343 with Halo Infinite? Those support studios sure got announcements and recognition for being onboard.

Square Enix just announced support studios for Dragon Quest XII. So that's not totally true at all. Support studios do get recognition. There is another support studio that helped Bethesda Game Studios build their new Creation Engine 2 that will be used for Starfield and Elder Scrolls 6, and that company definitely got recognized, and it's on their website.

Why wouldn't you want a AAA studio helping you with your game? That seems like good news, is it not? And another thing people are not acknowledging. We all know The Initiative was not large and would need a top tier development studio to help them fulfill their vision. Looks like they got one.

 

[Ozriel]

You don't tell everyone a new studio will be AAAA just to later say they are a robust support studio without something happening to cause the change.

I hate when companies try to insult the intellegience of the people that buy their products.

You've gotten your wires all mixed up.
Crystal Dynamics are the 'support studio' in this discussion, not the Initiative.

 

[Ozriel]

When did I say it's a bad thing? It's not necessarily a bad thing. But smaller studios make AAA games all the time on their own.

• HouseMarque, a team of 60 people who don't even have any experience making a AAA game, just released Returnal.
• Supergiant Games , a team of 20 people, released Hades which puts most AAA games to shame.
• Bend Studios made Days Gone with a team of less than 100 people.
• Ember Labs, a team of 12 people, just released a fantastic game, Kena, that is very AAA-ish.
• 100-ish people at Sucker Punch Productions made Ghost of Tsushima, which also has an ongoing multiplayer game.
• Spider-Man PS was made by 150 developers.
• Control was developed and shipped by less than 100 people in 3 years.

It happens all the time. It is just The Initiative that could not make a game.

Nice logic.
Polyphony Digital uses outsourcing to make Gran Turismo games. So Ember Labs > Polyphony Digital, eh? Polyphony can't make a game?

• Ember Labs, a team of 12 people, just released a fantastic game, Kena, that is very AAA-ish.

I strongly suspect Perfect Dark's scope is much more grand than Kena.

• 100-ish people at Sucker Punch Productions made Ghost of Tsushima, which also has an ongoing multiplayer game.
• Spider-Man PS was made by 150 developers.

Sucker Punch has 160 developers. 100-ish is quite the understatement.

Insomniac has 400+ developers. You think they chained away 150 of them only to work on Spiderman?

 

[Shmunter]

What, why would a 1st party need 3rd party collaboration, aka assistance. This is not a positive no matter the spin.

 

[Javthusiast]

Doubtful. The tweets say "first person" about 30x. A disappointment for me as well.

Hear hear. Third person games are simply better.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

Nice logic.
Polyphony Digital uses outsourcing to make Gran Turismo games. So Ember Labs > Polyphony Digital, eh? Polyphony can't make a game?




I strongly suspect Perfect Dark's scope is much more grand than Kena.



Sucker Punch has 160 developers. 100-ish is quite the understatement.

Insomniac has 400+ developers. You think they chained away 150 of them only to work on Spiderman?

Problem is even if Sony outsources their games, they are still good and bangers, anytime MS lately has outsourced a game it turned into a train wreck like crackdown 3, state of decay 2 etc.

whenever we get these buzz words from MS it slights me as not god because their track record has been abysmal

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I've seen a lot of people treating this as just some kind of outsourcing but it looks more like co developing.

 

[Three]

Problem is even if Sony outsources their games, they are still good and bangers, anytime MS lately has outsourced a game it turned into a train wreck like crackdown 3, state of decay 2 etc.

whenever we get these buzz words from MS it slights me as not god because their track record has been abysmal

Playground was once an outsourced dev and they put out great games. They were onboard from the beginning of dev though. When MS outsource late it usually means the project wasn't progressing well. Think Crackdown and think Halo Infinite two months before launch. Crystal Dynamics are very talented though so the game will hopefully be really good regardless.

 

[Hezekiah]

Hopefully get the game in 2024 now it has such a large team.

2021 Halo Infinite, Forza Horizon 5
2022 Starfield, Forza Motorsport
2023 Fable, Gears Of War, Avowed
2024 Perfect Dark, Elder Scrolls VI

Looks good to me.

 

[oldergamer]

I know someone at one of the CD studios and none of them saw this coming. Most of them are thinking that MS really could be buying them

 

[Umbasaborne]

Seems like a bad sign

 

[R3claimer117]

I know someone at one of the CD studios and none of them saw this coming. Most of them are thinking that MS really could be buying them

Could be a possibility given that Gallagher already ran the studio could be folded into the initiative. Square also isn't happy with crystal dynamics given the avengers reception which is partly on them to blame for wanting a GASS model instead of a 30 hr linear experience the studio is use to. It's still odd that they're allowing them to work on Microsoft first party stuff but if you're Microsoft this is a gift giving CD is probably the best studio they can get for third person action games.

 

[R3claimer117]

Seems like a bad sign

How's it a bad sign please tell us about the game or what CD is doing or working on vs how far along the game is or what the initiative have worked on?

 

[StateofMajora]

It's not a big studio and don't think they have been hiring that quickly

546 at naughty dog and 412 at guerrilla… Wow that's some horrible bloat and another reason these studios are crap.

500 at 343. Coincidence? Too many employees means not focused enough.

 

[Myths]

Good to hear this game announced. Now If only Syphon Filter would be considered by ND/Sony, that would be sparking up more PS1/N64 remakes.

 

[Great Hair]

2018 Studio created with devs. from EA, Sony, TakeTwo etc.
2019 more devs. are joining them for something "ground-breaking"
2020 some Insider has something to say ...
2021 Crystal Dynamics (u no awenchairs rite?) joins, helps out
2021 Early in development

 

[MonarchJT]

Has anyone considered that The Initiative is a smaller studio and they basically secured a partnership with the most talented, robust "support studio" on the planet in Crystal Dynamics?

They had two options for their AAAA game. Hire 200+ people in a relatively short period of time or work a deal with a support studio to bring Perfect Dark to life.

They chose the costlier option. As a result, they get a massive studio that's already functioning at high capacity.

This isn't bad news for the game. This is great news.

this is what I'm trying to say from the start this is exactly what would an AAA"A" studio do when need help ....they get an entire top tier studio to work at it

 

[MonarchJT]

What, why would a 1st party need 3rd party collaboration, aka assistance. This is not a positive no matter the spin.

because you don't get a top tier studio like crystal dinamic without citing them in the loading and the ending title with their logos no matter how much money u throw at it it's a matter of prestige of the studio, the world "collaboration" is more that than anything else do not pass an already famous top tier AAA studio .. as anonymous man power . The initiative is a very little as studio and the game was thought from the beginning that it needed 150 200 people to add to the project once in full production. Ms just giving lots of money to the studio thats it.....and getting too tier help with it ..no matter how much the usuals are trying to push a narrative without having seen a single pixel of the game under discussion.

 

[Evil Calvin]

They were founded 3 years ago and started on Perfect Dark. How is it still 'early in development'?

 

[MonarchJT]

They were founded 3 years ago and started on Perfect Dark. How is it still 'early in development'?

it's at this point full production if they hired all of those people

 

[Shmunter]

because you don't get a top tier studio like crystal dinamic without citing them in the loading and the ending title with their logos no matter how much money u throw at it it's a matter of prestige of the studio, the world "collaboration" is more that than anything else do not pass an already famous top tier AAA studio .. as anonymous man power . The initiative is a very little as studio and the game was thought from the beginning that it needed 150 200 people to add to the project once in full production. Ms just giving lots of money to the studio thats it.....and getting too tier help with it ..no matter how much the usuals are trying to push a narrative without having seen a single pixel of the game under discussion.

If Naughty Dog did this, I can assure you - the Internet would be ablaze.

Nice to see Xbox guys like the move tho.

 

[MonarchJT]

just to let some people understand and close this stupid "bad" false narrative

Certain affinity (ex-bungie people's) a 250+ people studio
is helping Halo Infinite studio (which is already huge) with the game with an official collaboration

"Certain Affinity Reveals Ongoing Partnership with 343 Industries on Halo Infinite"

Certain Affinity Reveals Ongoing Partnership with 343 Industries on Halo Infinite - Certain Affinity

Today we’re proud to reveal Certain Affinity’s partnership with 343 Industries on Halo Infinite. Read more...

www.certainaffinity.com

do you understand how out of touch these speeches are? if you have a lot of money like budget for halo you can afford internal studios of 250+ people to help just that instead of outsourcing out of respect you call partnership or collaboration.

 

[lh032]

Microsoft wouldn't have OK'd this deal (super expensive) if they weren't liking what they were seeing from Perfect Dark at this point.

Remember Crackdown 3?

 

[MonarchJT]

If Naughty Dog did this, I can assure you - the Internet would be ablaze.

Nice to see Xbox guys like the move tho.

naughty dog did this multiple times and you have like most of the time no idea of what u talk about just spreading fud and hate on Xbox like always

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Remember Crackdown 3?

What about it?