Support NeoGAF

[clarky]

I doubt MS is that happy about the Game Pass revenues looking at their past expectations. Also it literally killed the xbox brand imo. I'm not that sure it was worth the price.

Having crap to non-existent software killed the xbox brand imo. If they had the install base of Playstation (or the 360 even) then things would look very different right now I think.

 

[amigastar]

Maybe this will be one of these games which will be successful later on when it gets cheaper.

 

[calico]

Budget estimates have it at around $100m, so it's been paid for in full already just from Game Pass subscriber revenue.

Arbitrarily assigning 1/12th of annual game pass revenue to Doom is some very generous maths.

 

[clarky]

Arbitrarily assigning 1/12th of annual game pass revenue to Doom is some very generous maths.

We don't know Annual GP revenue do we?

 

[ProtoByte]

Why should it be double?

You remember the leaks from the ActiBlizz case? Before they slapped COD and Bethesda titles onto the service? By their own metrics, this shit isn't working.

Microsoft continue to report revenue growth driven by Game Pass. So, either the subs have stayed the same and they're making slightly more money per sub, the subs have decreased but they're making a lot more money per sub, or the subs have simply increased. I'll let you pick which one you prefer.

No, their growth last quarter topped out at like 2% despite bumping the price by 16% for console Game Pass and allegedly increasing PC numbers by 30%. You cannot make sense of that without concluding that there's been a massive churn on Xbox Game Pass.

 

[calico]

We don't know Annual GP revenue do we?

I don't. ZehDon is putting it at ~$3.6bn (which I don't take issue with). Whatever it is though we shouldn't arbitrarily assign 1/12th of it to Doom. If we do then the game is equally successful whether 30 people play it on GP or 30m people play it on GP.

However, he's also taking the position that all game pass games are in a collective basket and so they either all succeed or all flop, in which case there's not much point even considering the success or failure of an individual game.

I would assume Microsoft go to great lengths to understand the success (or failure) of games on the service at an individual level, and don't take the view that so long as game pass is profitable overall then every game on the service is a success.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Sure on the existing revenue part but 11 million new subs part is way off I think personally. Unless they all cancel after just one month. Also doesn't take into consideration other potential spend in the eco system like the ultimate edition upgrades or spend on MTX in other GP titles these new users wouldn't have spent other wise.

this is not the point. But to show how messy GP is, we can also think on this:


let's take 20 dollars.

how do you divide those 20 dollars from a subscriber?

1.Do you divide them across all the game in the service?
2.Only on the games this subscriber plays?

what about the engagement time? .
if a subscribers only plays 1-3 hours of a title:

3. how do you determine the "revenue" coming form that game?
a. are you going to take the amount of content the game offers by the amount of time the subscriber plays?
b. Are you going to count "players reached" regardless of the amount of play time as a "sale"?

You think MS is expecting to add 11 million new subs (and keep them) every time they release a AAA game onto the service?

it's an hipothetical to show the gap between revenue generated by copies sold vs the new subscriptions needed to match that revenue.

To be clear I have no love for GP myself either but sales clearly don't matter to them. They are playing a very long game (that I don't see working out for them but still).

based on the leaked court documents we know that this "very long game" has falied.

at this point GP should be around 60M subscribers. they expected 100M by 2027.

if sales didn't matter to them?... why are the putting their games in PS and PC and claiming that they need help from other platforms? (business update)

the issue with GP is that day and date releases don't make any sense from a business perspective. (there is too much money left on the table). it wouldn't be an issue if GP had like 100-200M subs. also there is a complete obfuscation of feedback.

 

[ProtoByte]

To be clear I have no love for GP myself either but sales clearly don't matter to them. They are playing a very long game (that I don't see working out for them but still).

What matters to them is revenue, and they clearly don't think they're getting enough. They increased the sub price of Gamepass, then they turbo charged multiplatformism. Now, they're moving onto to increasing game prices, and next they'll probably bump up GP again.

I guarantee you, they are not happy with getting 50% more players with Doom Dark Ages as compared to fucking Hi-Fi Rush which prompted the shutdown of that studio.

 

[indigoSociety]

Sux for the devs but that's what you get when you stray too far from the Doom formula of 1,2, 64 and 2016.

I've yet to play it since I'm waiting for the PT patch and sound mixing fixes.

Yeah how dare they try new things and keep things fresh

 

[calico]

One 'easy' way for Microsoft to do it would be to add all minutes played on the service (by everyone) and then divide the overall $$ (just for evaluation purposes) based on minutes played per game. This would still not be a very accurate way of judging how much each game really contributed to gaining and retaining subs though.

I'm sure they have some insanely complex formula which still only gets them in the ballpark of the truth.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Would have probably bought it but the series lost me with Eternal. Gameplay is too fast and hectic. I don't think this appeals to a lot of people. They should have kept it like Doom 2016.

 

[Starbuck2907]

Fake news via leaving out data.. 7x faster to 3 million players than Doom Eternal. How come you left that out?

You can't use sales or Steam numbers as a comparison for a game you can play on gamepass for $20.

By your logic, Stranger Things newest season is a failure because Netflix only sold a few dvd sets compared to the number of streamers.

For streaming services, you gotta cite streaming service numbers.

Can a mod to lock this clickbait thread?

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

I wish the game had kept the HEXEN name, didn't water down the difficulty and so on. It could've been great. Smells like another short sighted management decision.

 

[clarky]

this is not the point. But to show how messy GP is, we can also think on this:


let's take 20 dollars.

how do you divide those 20 dollars from a subscriber?

1.Do you divide them across all the game in the service?
2.Only on the games this subscriber plays?

what about the engagement time? .
if a subscribers only plays 1-3 hours of a title:

3. how do you determine the "revenue" coming form that game?
a. are you going to take the amount of content the game offers by the amount of time the subscriber plays?
b. Are you going to count "players reached" regardless of the amount of play time as a "sale"?

Unknown. Your guess is as good as mine. I think the better question is how much is a new sub worth on average to MS?

it's an hipothetical to show the gap between revenue generated by copies sold vs the new subscriptions needed to match that revenue.

Understood, but we don't know how much revenue each new sub will generate for them, its impossible to know. Its surely more than just a one month sub for the majority of these hypothetical new subs though.

based on the leaked court documents we know that this "very long game" has falied.

Failing. Which I don't dispute.

at this point GP should be around 60M subscribers. they expected 100M by 2027.

That was before Xbox hardware sales completely shit the bed I think? Clearly their strategy has changed. They must see something behind the curtain though or they would just shut it down.

if sales didn't matter to them?... why are the putting their games in PS and PC and claiming that they need help from other platforms? (business update)

To increase revenue. Everyone loves that, not to do so is leaving money on the table.

the issue with GP is that day and date releases don't make any sense from a business perspective. (there is too much money left on the table). it wouldn't be an issue if GP had like 100-200M subs. also there is a complete obfuscation of feedback.

Completely agree.

 

[damidu]

god! imagine trying to spin a success story out of gamepass like its still 2021.
even phil wouldn't dare trying it in company meetings anymore lol

Microsoft drops Game Pass growth target for CEO compensation

Sign up for the GI Daily here to get the biggest news straight to your inbox

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[Arsic]

Stats don't lie, proof that Eternal was more successful and a better game. I love Doom Franchise, I still liked Dark Ages but it was a big step back from Eternal. Eternal was so much more game and content.

Oddly enough the two games I've enjoyed for shooters most after eternal have been warhammer bolt gun and quake 1.( never played quake growing up)

Don't get me wrong I love dark ages but it's clearly a rush job.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dark Ages is a downgrade. This video says it best. BUMPER CARS.

 

[indigoSociety]

Would have probably bought it but the series lost me with Eternal. Gameplay is too fast and hectic. I don't think this appeals to a lot of people. They should have kept it like Doom 2016.

Skill issue

 

[DenchDeckard]

Seems like a good game from what I've played with a poor soundtrack.

Not sure what's happened. Expedition 33 is doing very well maybe that's cannabilising some players.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Dark Ages is a downgrade. This video says it best. BUMPER CARS.

Terrible video have seen shared multiple times.

Hopefully id never stops bringing new things to the table.

Next Doom game could be Just Dance - low iq take.

 

[FinalBossWithTheMostPower]

Too much Doom, too fast.

Didn't event let us miss 2016 before they hit us with Eternal.

This should've been Wolfenstein 3.

 

[MacReady13]

We rented a lot of games in the 80s and 90s, or traded/borrowed from friends. It was rare that anyone I knew owned more than like 5 games.

That's 5 more games owned than most Xbox owners have purchased. Still, we purchased games in the 90's. It was just how things were.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Numbers are public. 8.6 user rating on metacritic, 90 on opencritic, 90% positive reviews on steam.

It's like saying thst breath of the wild is divisive. Im on of the people who doesnt like it at all, and i will say it any chance i get, and im not the only one, we are very loud. But for me to say that it's a divisive game would be some next level delusion with the review scores it has across the board from media and users.

You should check out the reviews on Star Wars: The Last Jedi sometime

Eternal is divisive. The fact they it got high reviews by critics or whatever doesn't change that

If Eternal wasn't divisive, why is TDA doing so poorly?

Many many people were turned off by the direction Eternal took after 2016. People like me. I'm giving TDA a wide berth because I was so disappointed by Eternal. For me, 2016 was the perfect modernized Doom game and Eternal took that and threw it all in the garbage to make a shoot color-coded demon with matching color-coded gun platforming game while playing an annoying realtime resource management minigame to have ammo to shoot color-coded demons with. Thanks but no thanks

 

[Bojji]

Edit: Wrong thread, ups!

 

[Brakum]

You should check out the reviews on Star Wars: The Last Jedi sometime

Eternal is divisive. The fact they it got high reviews by critics or whatever doesn't change that

If Eternal wasn't divisive, why is TDA doing so poorly?

Im talking about user scores, not critics. It has overwhelmingly positive reviews by users.

If eternal wasnt divise, why TDA is doing poorly? Is this a serious question? Maybe, just maybe it's because they're nothing alike?

 

[PeteBull]

The numbers will tell you that a lot of people liked Eternal, otherwise it would have flopped like Dark Ages.

There are sequels ppl buy despite them being downgrade vs first game in the series, ppl simply dont expect them to be worse/a lot different, but thats debt 3rd game in the series has to pay with interest, examples would be spiderman2, tlou2.
Most players simply buy sequel when they liked first part assuming it wont be crazy different gameplay/setting wise, they arent like most gaffers who see leaks/nitpick on every tiny bit of trailers and in some cases devs making the game break their trust(be it chainging gameplay like in doom:e vs doom 2016, or other "betrayal alike" changes in those 2 other examples i gave).

Thats what happened to doom 2016/eternal/dark ages- ppl loved 2016, got burned by eternal and its awful changes to gameplay(platforming/jumping increase and forcing ppl to play with weapons they dont like coz of ammo scarcity- need to mix it up), decided 3rd game in the trilogy will be no good/not good enough- hence low sales numbers(ofc gamepass didnt help here either).

 

[DGrayson]

The price tag is what has stopped me from buying this. 80€ on Steam is just too much. I would be OK with 60€.

I got it on cdkeys for 60. Hell no I was paying 80

 

[Physiognomonics]

why would they buy that one when they can buy much cheaper and better other games? Game is just too expensive for what it is.

 

[Brakum]

There are sequels ppl buy despite them being downgrade vs first game in the series, ppl simply dont expect them to be worse/a lot different, but thats debt 3rd game in the series has to pay with interest, examples would be spiderman2, tlou2.
Most players simply buy sequel when they liked first part assuming it wont be crazy different gameplay/setting wise, they arent like most gaffers who see leaks/nitpick on every tiny bit of trailers and in some cases devs making the game break their trust(be it chainging gameplay like in doom:e vs doom 2016, or other "betrayal alike" changes in those 2 other examples i gave).

Thats what happened to doom 2016/eternal/dark ages- ppl loved 2016, got burned by eternal and its awful changes to gameplay(platforming/jumping increase and forcing ppl to play with weapons they dont like coz of ammo scarcity- need to mix it up), decided 3rd game in the trilogy will be no good/not good enough- hence low sales numbers(ofc gamepass didnt help here either).

Bullshit. People bought eternal becausr they liked 2016 but ended up not liking eternal, yet 9 out 10 user reviews are positive.

insane cope in this thread.

I love eternal and tda just always looked mid. I ended up buying it anyway but i can see ehy many eternal fans didnt.

 

[Spyxos]

It's a very good game by every metric wtf u saying? You may not like the changes compared to the previous couple but its still a high quality game.

I liked absolutely nothing about the game. That's what I say.

 

[PeteBull]

Bullshit. People bought eternal becausr they liked 2016 but ended up not liking eternal, yet 9 out 10 user reviews are positive.

insane cope in this thread.

I love eternal and tda just always looked mid. I ended up buying it anyway but i can see ehy many eternal fans didnt.

There is clear downgrade in steamreviews from doom 2016(95% very positive out of 145k total), to eternal(91% very positive out of total 175k), to dark ages(86% out of 13,5k) while budget grew expotentially in opposite direction- worse quality/sales combined with increased budget= flop, simple as that.

Doom 2016 didnt have to sell as many copies as eternal/dark ages coz it simply had much lower budget.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Bullshit. People bought eternal becausr they liked 2016 but ended up not liking eternal, yet 9 out 10 user reviews are positive.

insane cope in this thread.

I love eternal and tda just always looked mid. I ended up buying it anyway but i can see ehy many eternal fans didnt.

Looking mid + 80 euros. I like both Eternal and 2016 a lot.

I want to try TDA eventually. When its price is slashed. No tengo GP.

 

[IDKFA]

I started playing this over the weekend via Gamepass on my Xbox.

It's okay. Not my favorite Doom by a long shot, but not terrible (my favourite Doom game is still Doom 64)

I'm glad I could play it on GP as personally I don't think it's worth the £70 price tag.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

That's 5 more games owned than most Xbox owners have purchased. Still, we purchased games in the 90's. It was just how things were.

yeah sure buddy

 

[ResilientBanana]

Dark Ages is a downgrade. This video says it best. BUMPER CARS.

This is retarded. Maybe try watching other videos

 

[TheChumpNation]

Ok but what are the engagement figures. What's really important is knowing how many people booted it up on gamepass for less than 30 mins.

 

[MacReady13]

yeah sure buddy

You just keep sucking Microsoft's cock over a sub service. Wait until it becomes THE ONLY way you can get games and see how happy and cheery and good things are for gamers then. And if you think it won't happen, just wait. They don't call gamepass the Netflix of gaming for no reason at all. And try get some of the movies from streaming services on physical media... But you enjoy owning nothing and remaining happy about it (and yes, I get the fact you can still purchase games from the sub service FOR NOW). You do you champ.

 

[NickFire]

I think price hurts it. I'm also wondering if its too nostalgic of an IP for younger gamers, but not nostalgic enough to get all of the older games to buy it.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

My issues with the game is simple:

This doesn't feel like a Doom game. This game felt more like what a modern Quake would be.

You could change a few things, monster designs and it would be a quake game

And it would have been perfect, it would have been its own thing.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I didn't play the last doom. Without paying much attention, I feel like this game is a bit of a cash grab. Seems like an ok GamePass game though.

This game is anything but a cash grab. It's very much its own thing.

I just thing it should have been a Quake game not Doom. It feels nothing like the first two Dooms.

 

[amigastar]

This game is anything but a cash grab. It's very much its own thing.

I just thing it should have been a Quake game not Doom. It feels nothing like the first two Dooms.

No cash grab for sure, i wish more games would be so fleshed out with mechanics that actually work and are fun.

 

[Connificent]

This game is anything but a cash grab. It's very much its own thing.

I just thing it should have been a Quake game not Doom. It feels nothing like the first two Dooms.

This is anything but Quake

 

[RoboFu]

NEOGAF posters as a whole seem to be really negative towards games in general these days. Is it all Fanboyism or something worse?

 

[Dorago]

They lined up a perfect storm of suck with this one. By all accounts they game isn't that bad, and one reviewer I trust said it was the most Doom like Doom since Doom 64.

The "too expensive" is just cope. People pay whatever they charge for the new COD or NBA every year.

Bigger issues here were forced ray tracing when the average gamer has a four year old laptop, big change in tone an presentation from 2016 and Eternal, and Gamepass saturation where the casuals interested in it will just download Friday night and delete Sunday morning.

THIS is the real danger of the subscription model.

I can only imagine what's going on with their plans for GTA VI right now because their online only, month subscription for online, $$$ cosmetics and vehicles, and updates locked behind premium tiers are just not going to fly with the average consumer now.

 

[Zannegan]

NEOGAF posters as a whole seem to be really negative towards games in general these days. Is it all Fanboyism or something worse?

In this case, it seems like most are positive on the game and scratching their heads over its apparent lack of sales.

 

[clarky]

They lined up a perfect storm of suck with this one. By all accounts they game isn't that bad, and one reviewer I trust said it was the most Doom like Doom since Doom 64.

The "too expensive" is just cope. People pay whatever they charge for the new COD or NBA every year.

Bigger issues here were forced ray tracing when the average gamer has a four year old laptop, big change in tone an presentation from 2016 and Eternal, and Gamepass saturation where the casuals interested in it will just download Friday night and delete Sunday morning.

THIS is the real danger of the subscription model.

I can only imagine what's going on with their plans for GTA VI right now because their online only, month subscription for online, $$$ cosmetics and vehicles, and updates locked behind premium tiers are just not going to fly with the average consumer now.

The average consumer does not game on a 4 year old laptop, but if they did they'd find Doom would run just fine.

 

[Zacfoldor]

I'm tired of people pretending that it is not.

We can speculate as to why until the cows come home but I think it is because it didn't review as well as I expected. Who wants to play a mid(85 meta) boomer shooter for 70 dollars that is on gamepass for others to play for free? There is also a certain disregard for Microsoft games nowadays. A biased against them that once didn't exist. That is partly the gamepass effect, partly how MS has treated those who bought XSX, and partly because some people just don't like them for various reasons. This seems to affect MS worse than any other publisher imho. Another thing that hurt the game is early player reception. The game had apparently changed too much as was "not doom" and also required RT which angered some. Finally, it is a mega year for games and anything perceived as mid is getting skipped by everyone. We just had E33 drop and that is not a good game to go against.

When you give stuff away for free, people will not value it. They will trash it and not appreciate it. This hits MS games worse because we know they will never leave gamepass. They are free forever(or pennies a month as some brag about). Eventually people will stop paying for what they can get for free. Honestly, Doom isn't as cool as it once was either. It use to be dark and scary and now it is an esport all about fast action and you play the scary guy. It is also more complicated and many doom fans were from a time when the game was very simple and easy to play. Doom has changed for the worse(from a marketing perspective). This doom wasn't exciting at all. In retrospect, it is clear why it flopped. The perfect storm of everything sucking.

I bet if they took Boltgun and upped the graphics to AA and traded out the name/theme to Doom it would outsell The Dark Ages.

 

[MiguelItUp]

My issues with the game is simple:

This doesn't feel like a Doom game. This game felt more like what a modern Quake would be.

You could change a few things, monster designs and it would be a quake game

And it would have been perfect, it would have been its own thing.

This doesn't feel like Quake, but I can see people making the connection because it looks darker and more drab and the whole medievil / lovecraftian stuff/look.

This game is anything but a cash grab. It's very much its own thing.

I just thing it should have been a Quake game not Doom. It feels nothing like the first two Dooms.

It's not a cash grab. All three games are very different, and Hugo and team have said they wanted all three games to be similiar but also different enough. It definitely feels like the previous games in a variety of ways, from movement to mechanics. It's the same, but different, lol.

 

[Zacfoldor]

I suspect there is a lot of soul searching going on at Microsoft about this.

It cannot be sustainable to make full scale AAA games if these sales are the result. It just can't.

Something's gotta give.

Very few games are as undeniably a flop as this just based on what we can actually see already so it is probably worse than we will ever imagine.

 

[Badlucktroll]

if they do an AAA quake i just hope its not a bigass flopadopolous