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The Metroid series has been around for 35 years, and it was always like this. It is much older than Dark Souls, LOL.
Dr Bass
Member
This is a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority." Try something else. You have no idea what other people's experiences are on this board in terms of designing games/software/puzzles, or what their work experience/intelligence levels are.
Just argue your points in good faith. That's all that's required. That goes for anywhere on this board.
Neff
Member
Uwe Boll is a director of many movies. He knows what makes a better movie than me, who hasn't directed a movie, right?
Heck, I would have been mad if it DIDN'T have hidden blocks! I was actually very disappointed with Fusion back when it came out, because it was so straight forward. Some people just can't accept that there are plenty of games for all tastes, and whine to high heaven if a game doesn't fit their taste. Sad.
Clearly, you are very young.
S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
so what your food tastes like garbo, I'm a professional chef. I know what I do.
That is one hell of a cope and seethe post, lol.
Jeeves
Member
It's sad but clear as day what happened to him.
- To begin with, he was willfully not engaging with the game the way it's meant to be played by going out of his way to not utilizing 360 free aiming.
- He was embarrassed to for whatever reason get stuck in the game during a stream, probably doubly embarrassed that he got stuck on a part that no one else thought twice about.
- Once his ego got tangled up in it he had a rather extreme kneejerk reaction swearing on his pride as a former game maker that it was the game's fault and that the game and its designers suck.
- Predictably this made people tease him.
- He got more embarrassed and tried to double down, but because his position didn't have a good foundation to begin with, his arguments are shaky and he's forced to strawman the logical arguments presented to him, if not outright ignore them. Admittedly some of the arguments thrown his way were not good, such as "if you played other Metroid games you would know", but there was no shortage of arguments based in sound game design either.
- He steps away from the arguments and unfortunately does not take time to reflect, instead tripling down incoherently lashing out further on twitter at the expense of his dignity.
At this point his heels are probably dug in irreversibly.
baphomet
Member
There wasn't a single area in the game that had me have to stop and think for more than 10 minutes. They couldn't have made it easier to tell you where to go unless they had giant red arrows pointing at everything. If you think that's what games need then you're free to think that, but thank God not everything is press A to win these days. First run was like 7:30 or so. Couldn't have asked for a better designed game.
Cutty Flam
Banned
"Don't disrespect muh Jaffe!" LOL, I'm sure his skin is thick enough to not be bothered by hyperbolic forum drama.
alucard0712_rus
Banned
This.
Also one of the friends of mine just killed the Richter way back in 1999 and returned SoTN to me with something like "I've have beaten your game that you are talking about so much". Still remember this feeling of someone being so stupid and confident in himself so much at the same time. Oh wait, maybe these things are connected
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Well, I was an adult, and I thought it sucked. But I don't have an issue with games that don't have it,different strokes for different folks.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I am 32... I play games since 1995...
Games did some stuff back then because of technology limits and no supervision or knowledge of good design.
Game does not have to be cryptic asshat in order to be difficult
OMG, imagine arguing that reading text is too much to ask.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Barakov
Gold Member
I didn't think a Metroid game could make someone this salty. But Nintendo and Mercury Steam found a way.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
So fucking what ?! Do I need to be 42? What metric is the "correct" one to be able to have an opinion on this grandpa? Or is just everyone younger than you (supposedly) wrong ?So you weren't even alive when the original Metroid came out? You just proved my point!
What kind of metric is that ?!
I was not alive when they filmed The Thing but it can be my fav movie.
What is this bs. Who are these people like you ?! I cannot comprehend your stupidity and disrespect. Go play your bs "hardcore" grandpa games
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Dr Bass
Member
No supervision?
Nintendo needs people telling them what to do now?
And they didn't know what good design was, which led to them being the most beloved gaming company to ever exist in the history of the world? To the point where their main characters are as recognizable as Disney characters?
Because they don't know what a good game is?
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Everyone needs some sort of curator or a improving experience. There is a reason why items improve over time and designs change.No supervision?
Nintendo needs people telling them what to do now?
And they didn't know what good design was, which led to them being the most beloved gaming company to ever exist in the history of the world? To the point where their main characters are as recognizable as Disney characters?
Because they don't know what a good game is?
If nothing changed or was never improved you would not be able to write to me now on this forum.
Just because someone made a game, amazing for it's time, it does not mean it's design is timeless. Exact same reason why qte are trash now but many were drooling over fahrenheit.
Whatever you say, going back to the topic, I am still with jaffe on this. The example shown by him is just plain bad. Of course I would probably shoot at the ceiling but I can understand why some wouldn't. There is no crack, no sign, minimap has other entry... Game does not indicate you can do that with this block.
Played 1 Metroid game or all of them does not change this.
It's the same reason why doom 2 levels are hated mazes and key hunts. Because you can get stuck for a long time looking for keycard. It does not mean this is a good thing because a game is old and classic.
I don't see what that have to do with being a Metroid fan or experienced player. Is this game only for 50 year olds who played all these games? NO! It's a switch game for kids!!! Who have never played Metroid!
secrets or deep cuts in it, should be a content for old fans. Not main path
PandemiaPorcina
Member
Uh this was not cringey this is shit gaming design
Neff
Member
Some people relish the spirit of adventure. Some people want a pre-packaged tourist ride with all the adventuring done for them.
Generally speaking, a classic game is a classic in the first place because it's good. But then of course one's definition of 'good' differs depending on your taste.
Buggy Loop
Member
oops wrong thread
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Dr Bass
Member
Now THAT is some good design!Jaffe's Jigsaw Puzzle
Dr Bass
Member
At the same time not everything DOES improve with time, and there ARE timeless designs. The idea that everything improves with time is objectively false.
It doesn't matter if you're "with" Jaffe on this, I think it's been shown to be completely untrue for many clearly stated reasons. You can keep digging in your heels, but the puzzles are solvable and logical. It's great design. Plenty of people who are playing this for the first time and didn't grow up with Metroid are getting through it perfectly. You're. just. wrong. You can not understand why 1 + 1 = 2, it doesn't mean it ain't a fact.
AREYOUOKAY?
Member
Are you trying to make things more confusing? Years ago we had players asking "Why can't Metroid crawl?" in Miiverse.
Here I fixed the bad game design. Everyone wins.
Well these days gamers are asking "What button makes Metroid shoot and where is Metroid supposed to shoot?"
So I've come up with an even better solution inspired by the classic God of War series that fixes both of those problems at the same time.
Killer8
Member
Even if some people were making this argument, it's irrelevant because the game does begin with a tutorial which shows new people the ropes. I hadn't played a Metroid game in probably ten years and thought it did a good job of telling me everything. I know how the series has worked in the past re: breakable walls, so seeing the game actually point that out for the benefit of new players, as if to say "be on the lookout for this", was an admirable bone to throw.
I guess there is no point devoting more time to this part though, because you go on to say... drumroll...
I think you are ignoring a couple of key things which are visually conveyed to the player during the first block shooting tutorial.
Even if a player was to shoot in all 180 degrees around them, they'd recognize that the actually destructible part was the roughly 1-2 meter thick piece of rock which had a suspiciously straight edged, blocky appearance, and some empty space on the other side.
From this point on in the game, the player gets gradually conditioned to think that every shootable block will have roughly those dimensions and appearance. In some of the EMMI chase areas for example, you sometimes have stretches of hallways with several of these block walls impeding you (like in the above screenshot), which you need to shoot through to escape. They pretty much always have the same thickness - they need to be, since when you shoot the outer rock, it reveals the 3D model of one of the 3 block types inside which you mentioned. It's not dissimilar from how the morph ball gaps always have the same thickness.
By a certain point in the game, the player really ought to have started to instinctively associate '1-2 meter thick blocks' with 'potential pathway' - much like 'cracks in the wall' in Zelda is associated with 'breakable wall'. It's the same design principle, but more subtle.
The context of the tutorial also conveys a lot of information to the player. They have literally run into a dead end here, and the game then says about that: "if you run into a dead end, try shooting at your surroundings". Again, I think it's a very obvious communication to the player that a 'dead end' will often be caused by a block wall.
And it's been pointed out that even the map is conveying something just beyond the wall (which is why it's almost comically timed how you say "There's no indication on the map!" in the stream). A roughly one block wide gap on the map, some exposed level on the other side, gee I wonder where that leads...
So from this tutorial, there's a mix of:
a) explicit knowledge being imparted to the player (via the text instructions, and the direct effect of shooting the block) and
b) implicit knowledge (how the map leading somewhere and the block shape relate to a dead end).
It is very suggestive that if you are ever stuck in the game, and you find a room that has a dead end.. with some map beyond it... and the wall that's forming the dead end meets the visual criteria of these blocks... you should maybe, just maybe try shooting that wall.
This is such a dishonest characterization of how the blocks fit into the gameplay loop. You seem to have painted this picture that any players NOT spam shooting everywhere will inevitably end up lost. It's almost like saying a soldier will only kill the correct target if he fires wildly at anyone he sees, until eventually he kills the right person. No, they try and spot the target (ie. the block wall and path beyond) first, then shoot at it. A player would only need to 'blast everything' if they were absolutely, well and truly stuck because of this, which i've suggested is unlikely because of the player's conditioning to look for and shoot blocks if they hit a dead end.
Well, that's Metroidvania. And no, that isn't a "it's been this way for 35 years so that's why" defense, I mean it in a "that's one of the hallmark tropes of the genre" defense. Metroidvania will always have you juggling multiple things at once and probing the map for rooms which you can do something in. It's all about the exploration.
It's really not that hard to hold the L trigger on the Joy Con bro. You can even just lightly press it from the side of the console unit. I guess it might be a complaint if you are holding each Joy Con loose in separate hands, but then every Switch ships with a free plastic frame you can attach the Joy Cons to.
Many people, including me, who are bringing up the enemy placement are not talking about the enemy in the corner you tried so valiantly to kill without aiming. You are thinking of the design like this:
The enemy crawls over the breakable surface and while shooting at it, you happen to take out the surface and can then proceed, like a happy little accident.
But what we are referring to is the enemies above the breakable surface.
As a designer, you may have heard of the term 'breadcrumbs' - little suggestions to the player that they might be able to reach somewhere. Like for example when you spot a treasure chest in a weird place in a platformer. There is an implication that you should be able to reach it somehow, so you then look within the immediate area for the path. This is the same principle, except in this case the way through is right in front of you.
(Now I guess it could make sense that the area above you is some later section of the game, which later links up with this room. But again, based on the conditioning the player has gotten that 1-2 meter wide blocks can sometimes be destroyed, and this does seem to be a dead end... it might be wise to try shooting it.)
I decided to address this last. Full disclosure: I work in the industry too and have encountered this very annoying attitude dozens of times, usually from authoritarian lecturers who think they know better than everyone. I've seen many brilliant ideas get shot down because they didn't fit in with the prevailing idea of what 'good design' is, or went against the orthodoxy of a Game Developers Conference circlejerk.
As an example, you say "And it should not have to come from a guide or the internet or twitter. If the game doesn't tell you how to play, it's the game's fault." - yet that is exactly the school of thought behind why Dark Souls didn't tell its player much. You have communities spawned around it, wikis, discussions and online collaboration trying to figure it out - it got people talking, which is what the developer wanted. So what you may have ascribed to it as "lol shit design" wasn't actually shit at all, it fulfilled the designer's intent. And in case you didn't notice, Dark Souls' unorthodox design ended up being incredibly influential.
Design also follows trends over periods of time and what might be thought of as 'the right way to do things' can fall out of fashion in a matter of years. Some things can be designed in a way that seems odd, but with a method to the madness to elicit a certain response in the player. An example: why do I have to take my eyes off the screen in Zombi U on the Wii U to manage my inventory, surely that is 'bad design'? I mean I can't see the enemies attacking me now! Well, the purpose is to increase tension by doing that, so it's actually good design for a horror game. There are many such cases of things which would 'fail a design class', but are really brilliant.
I mean you could even apply your ridiculous civil rights comparison to this:
Some of the worst arguing from your own self-inflated sense of authority that i've ever read.
Don't even get me started on the immense fucking irony of saying Metroid fans like to think 'Only WE are the ones who really 'get' this game', and then IMMEDIATELY go on to say that it's only YOU who 'know the craft and have worked in the craft of design..." and "know a hell of a lot better and are very aware that you're full of shit'. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black lmao. And I guess fuck all those designers at MercurySteam, amirite? This coming from David Jaffe, a guy who's not done anything of relevance in design for a decade and now spends his life streaming fatly on Youtube.
Frankly, putting aside any of your design opinions, you seem like a gigantic cunt and my earlier opinion that the industry is much better off without you has only grown tenfold. Peace out.
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Lethal01
Member
It's likely that your post was meant to just back me up, but just in case you misinterpreted what I said, let me clarify here before I edit.
"How about we stop acting like everyone is just going "it's always been like this" and not giving tons of thought-out reasons why it's good design."
I'm pointing out that the people on here are giving tons of reasons why it's good design despite other acting like everyone is just saying that "it's always been like this"
I agree with what jaffe says. His criticism is on point. Cant believe the level of gatekeeping on this thread. Hope you guys are not the ones that are against first cameras and tank controls in horror games I mean if you champion shooting at every single wall as the identity of a franchise...
Metroid dread seems to be a good game . I do not understand what's so special about it though... maybe the hide and seek w/instakill mechanic seen in games like outlast?
We had metroidvanias a dime a dozen since the 360 days with shadow complex. Specially on PC But for some reason this one is treated as the second coming. I am not seeing how this game brings anything new to the genre. It's very well put together if a bit safe. Like Mario games after Galaxy.
Metroid dread seems to be a good game . I do not understand what's so special about it though... maybe the hide and seek w/instakill mechanic seen in games like outlast?
We had metroidvanias a dime a dozen since the 360 days with shadow complex. Specially on PC But for some reason this one is treated as the second coming. I am not seeing how this game brings anything new to the genre. It's very well put together if a bit safe. Like Mario games after Galaxy.
bender
What time is it?
Virt McPolygon
Banned
Jaffe is a shock jock. Holy shit, you guys keep falling for it time after time.
He wants a reaction/discussion/engagement and you all are giving it!
He wants a reaction/discussion/engagement and you all are giving it!
bender
What time is it?
It's fun to watch grandpa Jaffe try to keep up with the most obnoxious Youtube personality trends.
Virt McPolygon
Banned
bender
What time is it?
Sure, he's getting paid for it.
Maybe he'll regale us with the time he designed four levels in a single day.
The hyperbole in this thread is getting ridiculous. Asking for more of an indicator that a block is destroyable is not asking for the game to 'hold your hand' or implement an arrow system to tell you directly where to go.
Aside from that, this is actually a good entry in the series and worth playing. The feel and movement is good.
Aside from that, this is actually a good entry in the series and worth playing. The feel and movement is good.
Neff
Member
I feel like this is the most telling aspect of Jaffe's, er, gaffe, because it falls prey to a crucial piece of context which is being overlooked in this bizarre debate.
When you get to the room in the video, you're locked into a five-room puzzle. Not a hundred rooms. Five. And you can't go back. You can't go anywhere else, until you figure it out. The room with the shootable blocks is the only room with a clear exit to freedom enabled by your abilities at that time, it's practically begging you to investigate it. Whether Jaffe was actually stuck there or not before he started stamping his feet and screaming bad design, I don't know, but there's a reason the game boxes you in like that. It's so you don't waste time looking where you shouldn't be looking for the exit, hiding in plain sight. That's good design.
Here's the internet enjoying good design.
A shock jock says outrageous shit which nobody else wants to say, but everybody knows is really true, that's how they get away with it. Whether deliberately or not, Jaffe seems to be following the DSP model.
I see what you did there.
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alucard0712_rus
Banned
Edit: nvm
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S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
bad game design y'all
I get the feeling he just can't understand that something can both be a great design AND him not personally like it. Hence the mental gymnastics of "Doom/Metroid used to be good design, now it's bad". That Jaffe fellow said that the Metroid designer would fail Game Design 101... maybe that is why SO many modern games have bad (IMO) design, lol. Naa,plenty of great ones out there.
You are right. For example, in this thread, he blamed the controller for not being able to use the 360° aim. He LITERALLY blamed the controller, instead of saying "Damn, my bad, lol". This is what 7 year old me and my friends would use as an excuse while playing Combat on the 2600. He can't be serious.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Pretending to be retarded is almost the same as being one.
My man. I haven't thought of that in over 30 years. That was some bullshit, lol. Kids (and Jaffe) in here crying about OBVIOUS blocks to shoot, it's funny.
They don't want to have to pay attention. They just want to follow an arrow and see pretty graphics and watch cutscenes that only a 12 year old would not find cliched dreck. But instead of sticking to games that give them that, they cry to developers to turn all series into that. They think they are entitled to have every game cater to them. I blame the popularity of echo chambers like Reddit for this mindset, but who knows? Fortunately, it looks like there are more and more games being designed with an old-school mentality, so there are plenty for all.
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