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[LordOcidax]

AI-reconstructed images is another way to render a native image. This is because of the output target, which at the end of the day is all that matters with AI.

That's why it shouldn't be called the same… 4K reconstructed from 840p is not the same as 4K reconstructed from 1440p. Is not the same AMD tech as Nvidia tech… too many variables and too many results to be called as simple as 4K. A simplification that only benefits one side with marketing. Something like that should be regulated to prevent false advertising.

 

[Bojji]

AMD never had hardware upscaling in their cards, but Sony made them build custom hardware for this specific task

And they will be using it in RDNA4 and beyond.

That's why it shouldn't be called the same… 4K reconstructed from 840p is not the same as 4K reconstructed from 1440p. Is not the same AMD tech as Nvidia tech… too many variables and too many results to be called as simple as 4K. A simplification that only benefits one side with marketing. Something like that should be regulated to prevent false advertising.

Exactly, input resolutions are very important but many people don't seem to get it.

 

[Topher]

Damn, I knew AMD was lacking behind Nvidia with FSR vs DLSS but didn't know they were so far behind.

Also, since PS5 Pro is using AMD, did they work together to make PSSR working or did Sony built it on their own?
If so, isn't it fucking embarrassing for AMD?

Don't think we know the answer to that for certain. To me, it ain't a great look for AMD to already be so far behind Nvidia in this regard and PlayStation beating them to market is a head scratcher. I say that while that it also seems par for the course when it comes to AMD on the GPU side of things so I guess it shouldn't be surprising. Just AMD being AMD.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Thanks for the clarifications @Mr Moose and Gaiff

Is it right to say that both DLSS and PSSR use hardware but FSR use software which is why it's not as good?

If so, why is AMD sticking to software?

Different strategies in play.

Nvidia are happy to go costly lithography at big chip sizes and provide dedicated die area for AI accelerators(ASICS) because they have a large share of the AI and high end graphics card market and can charge accordingly.

AMD don't want silicon underutilised and want everything they provide to be more general purpose with only specific instruction paths to accelerate calculations used in different problem domains (like RT, AI) thereby allowing them to build for smaller dies with the target being power efficiency. PSSR will run in software on the Pro, but is accelerated as Dual issue rapid pack maths inference meaning 4 dot products at FP16 per instruction per clock cycle versus a conventional 1 dot product of FP32 per clock cycle, and even more acceleration of instructions per clock if using INT8 or INT4, and making use of sparse matrix multiplication which is a new feature to reduce calculations by avoiding multiplying lots of zeros for zero benefit.

 

[GHG]

Any reason the OP isn't getting updated with this?

I saw how many pages this thread was and wondered how/why but then a quick glance at the last couple of pages tells you everything you need to know. Denchdouche is throwing his toys out of the pram with his disingenuous takes once again.

Vick was right, no idea how the fuck he's still here.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Its almost like we should wait and see for ourselves what this thing can do when places actually get this unit

I swear I have heard someone preach this before

 

[MDSLKTR]

I was just making fun at those that make those kinds of statements.

Mate, you are the biggest clown I've seen on gaf in my 15+ years here.

 

[PaintTinJr]

That's why it shouldn't be called the same… 4K reconstructed from 840p is not the same as 4K reconstructed from 1440p. Is not the same AMD tech as Nvidia tech… too many variables and too many results to be called as simple as 4K. A simplification that only benefits one side with marketing. Something like that should be regulated to prevent false advertising.

840p worth of pixels in a 1440p or 2160p render with ML AI holes filled afterwards >> 840p native resolution being upscaled to 1440p or 2160p

Just think of the difference between Variable Rate Codec bit-rates and the results from Constant Bit Rate codecs at the exact same bit-rate

 

[MisterXDTV]

Don't think we know the answer to that for certain. To me, it ain't a great look for AMD to already be so far behind Nvidia in this regard and PlayStation beating them to market is a head scratcher. I say that while that it also seems par for the course when it comes to AMD on the GPU side of things so I guess it shouldn't be surprising. Just AMD being AMD.

Yeah, based on what we know RDNA 4 greatly improves ray tracing but it's not like FSR 4 hardware upscaling is launching anytime soon

PSSR is launching in less than 2 months

 

[Topher]

Its almost like we should wait and see for ourselves what this thing can do when places actually get this unit

I swear I have heard someone preach this before

People don't seem to understand that they create the appearance of having an agenda when they go nuts pushing this stuff as first hand confirmation when it simply isn't. Every time a new GPU releases, I see the posts saying "wait for third party benchmarking". That's as it should be. When DF and others get their hands on PS5 Pro and run it through all their tests then that's the time we can start coming to conclusions. This is all incredibly premature.

 

[Luipadre]

Its almost like we should wait and see for ourselves what this thing can do when places actually get this unit

I swear I have heard someone preach this before

The false narrative around the Pro and the hate farming is insane online. I wish these people just shut the fuck up.

 

[Wolfpact1983]

Can't wait for TGS and State of Play soo all the haters can shut up finally

 

[GHG]

Mate, you are the biggest clown I've seen on gaf in my 15+ years here.

He's been here longer than you think, this is his old account - J JAYSIMPLE

He's been doing the same shit since 2013 across multiple forums.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

People don't see to understand that they create the appearance of having an agenda when they go nuts pushing this stuff as first hand confirmation when it simply isn't. Every time a new GPU releases, I see the posts saying "wait for third party benchmarking". That's as it should be. When DF and others get their hands on PS5 Pro and run it through all their tests then that's the time we can start coming to conclusions. This is all incredibly premature.

The false narrative around the Pro and the hate farming is insane online. I wish these people just shut the fuck up.

I want to see the discussion after Tokyo Game Show week and see what people are saying

 

[GHG]

People don't see to understand that they create the appearance of having an agenda when they go nuts pushing this stuff as first hand confirmation when it simply isn't. Every time a new GPU releases, I see the posts saying "wait for third party benchmarking". That's as it should be. When DF and others get their hands on PS5 Pro and run it through all their tests then that's the time we can start coming to conclusions. This is all incredibly premature.

I said it the other day, because it comes out so soon they need to capitalise on the little time they have available, they are speedrunning this campaign against the machine. It's been particularly interesting to witness the parallels between this and what went down prior to the PS5 release, it's just the same nonsense all over again but on steroids.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I said it the other day, because it comes out so soon they need to capitalise on the little time they have available, they are speedrunning this campaign against the machine. It's been particularly interesting to witness the parallels between this and what went down prior to the PS5 release, it's just the same nonsense all over again but on steroids.

I think opening preorders when they are is an interesting timing with TGS

But then again I tend to read way too much into things

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I thought they couldn't even run it efficiently on RDNA3. Good to know they actually can.

They can't. AMD doesn't even openly disclose how many TOPS ist RDNA2/RDNA3 GPUs are capable of. But instead uses arbitrary statements like RDNA3 is 2.x times better than RDNA2.

One thing for certain though, is that its AI stuff is not capable of handling deep learning tasks (which is key for AI accelerated reconstruction tech).

 

[Topher]

I said it the other day, because it comes out so soon they need to capitalise on the little time they have available, they are speedrunning this campaign against the machine. It's been particularly interesting to witness the parallels between this and what went down prior to the PS5 release, it's just the same nonsense all over again but on steroids.

This is all based on video provided in the Mark Cerny presentation, correct? We are talking about analyzing Pro's performance on a game based entirely on a few seconds of footage from a game montage at the very end of the video? Am I getting this right?

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

So pro won´t offer native 4K, won´t offer 60 fps secured on all games...But was it´s 100% secured is the $700 price without disc drive...I can´t understand how could be people defending this and even stating "day one". People like this is as guilty as the companies for the current state of this industry.

 

[nikolino840]

That is totally incorrect though.

It's pixel counted at around 840p native, not the final resolution with PSSR.

Sure...like the native pixel count on series s games...if you look at titles when the res on series s is low, is low in the native resolution not the output res

 

[Zathalus]

This is all based on video provided in the Mark Cerny presentation, correct? We are talking about analyzing Pro's performance on a game based entirely on a few seconds of footage from a game montage at the very end of the video? Am I getting this right?

The Alan Wake 2 stuff? That was footage that Sony gave to DF. Only totalling 6 seconds of both 30 vs 60 fps. Thus the only thing we know is that there are RT reflections in the 30 mode, the internal resolutions, and that it is using PSSR. Any other settings or performance analysis will need to wait until they probably have the game. But that's already enough changes to make the game look considerably better, especially in the forest sections.

 

[GHG]

I think opening preorders when they are is an interesting timing with TGS

But then again I tend to read way too much into things

I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't have bothered to reveal the console until TGS or the upcoming state of play in order to do a deep dive and really show people why it's worth the asking price. Either that or show what it's capable of first before revealing the price (so the opposite of what they are doing now). But who knows, maybe something was about to leak so they just decided to get on with it.

But what I really don't understand, is why Microsoft and the footsoldiers they are instructing are so flustered by this machine when by and large customers are still in a state of sticker shock? They don't even need to do anything, most people aren't buying it for the asking price anyway given what little we've seen so far.

I'm certainly not buying it and I've outlined why in various other threads (I think for the money being asked you might as well put a bit more down and get yourself a PC, and in my case I have multiple strong PC's that play all the same games anyway). But jesus christ, I'm starting to feel like buying multiple (one for me and others a friend or two for Christmas) just out of spite because of all the outright bullshit and misinformation that they are attempting to pedal at the moment.

This is all based on video provided in the Mark Cerny presentation, correct? We are talking about analyzing Pro's performance on a game based entirely on a few seconds of footage from a game montage at the very end of the video? Am I getting this right?

As I understand it, yes. Digital foundry were sent the raw footage of everything featured in the Cerny presentation and somehow they've turned that in to a 2 hour "analysis" full of assumptions, guesses, buts and maybes, and that is exclusive to their paid subscribers.

 

[PaintTinJr]

The Alan Wake 2 stuff? That was footage that Sony gave to DF. Only totalling 6 seconds of both 30 vs 60 fps. Thus the only thing we know is that there are RT reflections in the 30 mode, the internal resolutions, and that it is using PSSR. Any other settings or performance analysis will need to wait until they probably have the game. But that's already enough changes to make the game look considerably better, especially in the forest sections.

How do we know the internal resolution?

Did I miss the Director of Comms comeback and confirm the resolution?

 

[DenchDeckard]

Mate, you are the biggest clown I've seen on gaf in my 15+ years here.

 

[Gaiff]

How do we know the internal resolution?

DF said it was easy to count.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Im just pissing around, mate.

Honestly, the base resolution isnt a big deal if PSSR can fix the image. I was just making fun at those that make those kinds of statements.

With your traffic in PlayStation threads I don't think so.

 

[Zathalus]

How do we know the internal resolution?

Did I miss the Director of Comms comeback and confirm the resolution?

They pixel counted it? It's not exactly hard and they have been doing it for years.

The video was extremely positive to PSSR and it's pretty clear from the footage as to why, as mentioned it is almost the equal of DLSS 3.7 and in TLOU is about equal to native (superior in some aspects, worse in others).

Anyone who thinks DF is shitting on the Pro or PSSR are falling for console war bait on twitter.

 

[diffusionx]

They pixel counted it? It's not exactly hard and they have been doing it for years.

The video was extremely positive to PSSR and it's pretty clear from the footage as to why. as mentioned it is almost the equal of DLSS 3.7 and in TLOU is about equal to native (superior in some aspects, worse in others).

Anyone who thinks DF is shitting on the Pro or PSSR are falling for console war bait on twitter.

DF might not be shitting on the pro, but I think they're acting irresponsibly here. They need to explain why it's okay for games to run at a lower resolution with a good upscaling technique and it's something PC users have been doing for years. Instead of just dropping ###p and being like "looks good lmao". They need to put out an article and video describing it in depth and why it's okay, what's the difference between DLSS (good), PSSR (good, hopefully), and FSR (dogshit).

They've trained their readers to care about pixel counts for a very long time and need to walk that back. I've been saying for years that it is bizarre how PC users with $1600 GPUs are fine playing games sub-native while people with $500 consoles demand full 4K native.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

So pro won´t offer native 4K, won´t offer 60 fps secured on all games...But was it´s 100% secured is the $700 price without disc drive...I can´t understand how could be people defending this and even stating "day one". People like this is as guilty as the companies for the cuirrent state of this industry.

If you want my take why I am day 1 is I want the best experience possible and thats why I am getting 2.

In the grand scheme of things $1400 to me is nothing for me to spend on a hobby I get so much enjoyment out of on upgrades to future Sony 1st party titles not to mention 3rd party titles that are coming

That said I am 100% in the whale category in their eyes

 

[Mobilemofo]

The failure of Gonecord has added to the ps5 pro cost. Im totally convinced.

 

[Topher]

They pixel counted it? It's not exactly hard and they have been doing it for years.

The video was extremely positive to PSSR and it's pretty clear from the footage as to why, as mentioned it is almost the equal of DLSS 3.7 and in TLOU is about equal to native (superior in some aspects, worse in others).

Anyone who thinks DF is shitting on the Pro or PSSR are falling for console war bait on twitter.

And that's fair. I'm looking forward to watching it myself, but some here are running with this one reported resolution and holding it up above all else. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

And that's fair. I'm looking forward to watching it myself, but some here are running with this one reported resolution and holding it up above all else. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Especially since we have zero idea how much effort was put into a final patch and even if what DF saw is actually final

 

[Gaiff]

DF might not be shitting on the pro, but I think they're acting irresponsibly here. They need to explain why it's okay for games to run at a lower resolution with a good upscaling technique and it's something PC users have been doing for years. Instead of just dropping ###p and being like "looks good lmao". They need to put out an article and video describing it in depth and why it's okay, what's the difference between DLSS (good), PSSR (good, hopefully), and FSR (dogshit).

They've been doing that for years. They explain exactly what's the native res, what's the upscaling technique used, and what's the output res. They tell you the pros and cons and how it looks in motion. DF isn't acting any more irresponsibly than before. It's fanboys using their information as console war ammo. Their slides always show DLSS PERFORMANCE or QUALITY or BALANCED and they never try to pass it off as native.

They've trained their readers to care about pixel counts for a very long time and need to walk that back. I've been saying for years that it is bizarre how PC users with $1600 GPUs are fine playing games sub-native while people with $500 consoles demand full 4K native.

They don't need to walk a thing back. People just need to stop being idiots and realize the nuances instead of using them to console war. Console users don't demand 4K either, they demand good image quality, which is not possible when reconstructing from 720p using FSSR. Of course, the results will be mocked when 1. the IQ is crap, and 2. the internal res is low.

The consoles for the most part did not have good upscaling barring a few exceptions such as IGTI and some checkerboarding (that still look worse than DLSS). Now that PSSR is joining the fray, they will be able to get an image quality comparable to DLSS. However, even PSSR won't be able to make 720p look good. Temporal upscalers still need something to work with. They're not a free pass to run games at PS360-era resolutions.

 

[Zathalus]

And that's fair. I'm looking forward to watching it myself, but some here are running with this one reported resolution and holding it up above all else. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

It may be disappointing to some but as DF also pointed out (several times in fact) these are quick patches done by developers that are likely busy with other work and should not be the best we can expect going forward. Especially with games that are built with the Pro in mind.

Alex also raised a good point that going forward Sony 1st party and the ICE team will tailor exclusives around the strengths of PSSR.

 

[Topher]

So pro won´t offer native 4K, won´t offer 60 fps secured on all games...But was it´s 100% secured is the $700 price without disc drive...I can´t understand how could be people defending this and even stating "day one".

Why were you expecting native 4K 60 across the board for all games?

People like this is as guilty as the companies for the cuirrent state of this industry.

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

If you want my take why I am day 1 is I want the best experience possible and thats why I am getting 2.

In the grand scheme of things $1400 to me is nothing for me to spend on a hobby I get so much enjoyment out of on upgrades to future Sony 1st party titles not to mention 3rd party titles that are coming

That said I am 100% in the whale category in their eyes

You live 100% on a bubble.

 

[geary]

Are people really expecting PSSR to surpass DLSS?
Not only has Nvidia been developing and improving DLSS for a longer time. But Nvidia is also the undisputed leader in AI, by a gigantic margin.

But but...Sony has pictures and TVs. It has to count for something....

 

[Xaeroxcore666]

Why were you expecting native 4K 60 across the board for all games?

What´s the point of the very expensive upgrade then?

 

[Gaiff]

As was discussed in the Pro Speculation thread RDNA3 does have the necessary features to run PSSR

They can't. AMD doesn't even openly disclose how many TOPS ist RDNA2/RDNA3 GPUs are capable of.

So, which is it?

 

[XXL]

What´s the point of the very expensive upgrade then?

To take games that have a performance mode and fidelity mode and run them in fidelity mode at 60fps with an improved image. From what we have seen so far....

 

[diffusionx]

If you want my take why I am day 1 is I want the best experience possible and thats why I am getting 2.

In the grand scheme of things $1400 to me is nothing for me to spend on a hobby I get so much enjoyment out of on upgrades to future Sony 1st party titles not to mention 3rd party titles that are coming

That said I am 100% in the whale category in their eyes

Damn now I need to buy two to get the full experience? Fuck you Sony.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

You live 100% on a bubble.

Very true but we don't know how many gamers live on said bubble that dropping $700 on a console is nothing for them

What´s the point of the very expensive upgrade then?

To get the best possible experience even if its not 4k 60

Damn now I need to buy two to get the full experience? Fuck you Sony.

 

[GHG]

Damn now I need to buy two to get the full experience? Fuck you Sony.

10/10 after the second purchase.

Spoiler

If you know, you know.

 

[adamsapple]

As I understand it, yes. Digital foundry were sent the raw footage of everything featured in the Cerny presentation and somehow they've turned that in to a 2 hour "analysis" full of assumptions, guesses, buts and maybes, and that is exclusive to their paid subscribers.

You've been around long enough to know they do a lot of coverage like this around any new console launches.

 

[Topher]

What´s the point of the very expensive upgrade then?

Improved visuals and frame rate. No one is saying you have to buy it my man. I'm still not sure I am.

 

[diffusionx]

They've been doing that for years. They explain exactly what's the native res, what's the upscaling technique used, and what's the output res. They tell you the pros and cons and how it looks in motion. DF isn't acting any more irresponsibly than before. It's fanboys using their information as console war ammo. Their slides always show DLSS PERFORMANCE or QUALITY or BALANCED and they never try to pass it off as native.

They don't need to walk a thing back. People just need to stop being idiots and realize the nuances instead of using them to console war. Console users don't demand 4K either, they demand good image quality which is not possible when reconstructing from 720p using FSSR. Of course, the results will be mocked when 1. the IQ is crap, and 2. the internal res is low.

The consoles for the most part did not have good upscaling barring a few exceptions such as IGTI and some checkerboarding (that still look worse than DLSS). Now that PSSR is joining the fray, they will be able to get an image quality comparable to DLSS. However, even PSSR won't be able to make 720p look good. Temporal upscalers still need something to work with. They're not a free pass to run games at PS360-era resolutions.

I honestly don't think people understand what DLSS is.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Any reason the OP isn't getting updated with this?

I saw how many pages this thread was and wondered how/why but then a quick glance at the last couple of pages tells you everything you need to know. Denchdouche is throwing his toys out of the pram with his disingenuous takes once again.

Vick was right, no idea how the fuck he's still here.

Inb4 the preaching starts how we (but not him) are all console warriors.

Full "that was Patricia" vibes.

 

[Astray]

I saw how many pages this thread was and wondered how/why but then a quick glance at the last couple of pages tells you everything you need to know. Denchdouche is throwing his toys out of the pram with his disingenuous takes once again.

He has 15 PS5s, surely Sony can't be demanding that he upgrade them all to pro?

He's got a gamepass sub to maintain!

I said it the other day, because it comes out so soon they need to capitalise on the little time they have available, they are speedrunning this campaign against the machine. It's been particularly interesting to witness the parallels between this and what went down prior to the PS5 release, it's just the same nonsense all over again but on steroids.

I personally see it as the sequel to the PS5 movie being faster and leaner with no fluff.

People really don't understand how much viewership $$$ DF stands to lose when Xbox is no longer relevant to power discussions of hyped 3rd party games. What's the point of watching a comparison video when you can immediately know that the outcome is "5090 PC wins, PS5 Pro 2nd, PS5/Xbox Series X trade blows, and Series S is dead last"?

Even if/when the hyped powerful new Xbox comes out (which imo is guaranteed to win any power contests by the time it comes out), there's no guarantee that A) it will have any traction with consumers and B) that it will be supported explicitly in 3P games.

I think opening preorders when they are is an interesting timing with TGS

But then again I tend to read way too much into things

There are rumors swirling around that the 30th Anniversary show is going to be big for PS5. I think the fact that they're bothering with TGS after 5 years of absence (which incidentally was their 25th anniversary) is quite instructive.

I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't have bothered to reveal the console until TGS or the upcoming state of play in order to do a deep dive and really show people why it's worth the asking price. Either that or show what it's capable of first before revealing the price (so the opposite of what they are doing now). But who knows, maybe something was about to leak so they just decided to get on with it.

But what I really don't understand, is why Microsoft and the footsoldiers they are instructing are so flustered by this machine when by and large customers are still in a state of sticker shock? They don't even need to do anything, most people aren't buying it for the asking price anyway given what little we've seen so far.

I'm certainly not buying it and I've outlined why in various other threads (I think for the money being asked you might as well put a bit more down and get yourself a PC, and in my case I have multiple strong PC's that play all the same games anyway). But jesus christ, I'm starting to feel like buying multiple (one for me and others a friend or two for Christmas) just out of spite because of all the outright bullshit and misinformation that they are attempting to pedal at the moment.

Microsoft and the foot soldiers is a known quantity at this point, but I think Sony wanted to get the sticker shock out of the way asap.

I might buy it, but it depends on what it sells for in my region and how much I can get a disc drive for.

 

[PaintTinJr]

DF said it was easy to count.

They can't even follow the technical aspects of how PSSR works - based on their headline gatcha 840p designed to misinform - how do they know what they are counting from an algorithm they don't understand - and might be counting inferred filled pixels or across lanczos filled and AI inferred filled, Or across native, AI inferred filled and lanczos filled - all with different resolutions?

it isn't even a case of them having access to the console and game to position the game camera to do what they used to do...I'm reading they had just 6secs of footage. So IMO the only way it was easy is that they have an inside source...

because a kid that can't count can say it is easy, doesn't mean they are getting the correct answers.

 

[Gaiff]

I honestly don't think people understand what DLSS is.

DF had several videos dedicated to explaining what DLSS is and how it works.