If anything, the fact that BioWare made such a fucking amazing game right up until the final 10 minutes makes it so much worse.
Why? ;_;
Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE
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If anything, the fact that BioWare made such a fucking amazing game right up until the final 10 minutes makes it so much worse.
Why? ;_;
The entire Reaper origin and purpose is stupid and unsupported by the entire series up to that point. If BioWare really wanted to do some big reveal and explain away the Reapers they should have simply had the Catalyst be a VI, like Vigil, left behind by the Original Creators of the Reapers whom they had rebelled against and destroyed.
The VI would tell you they created the Reapers as servants and used them to create the Mass Relays and the Citadel, the seat of their power and a massive Relay they were developing to travel to other galaxies. They created the Reapers by interning their dead into them to help create and expand their collective conscious, but this process proved disastrous as the Reapers started to change and soon saw themselves as the dominant force, and next step in evolution, in fact the final step, and attacked their creators, harvesting them all to expand their kind/minds.
The Reapers being their own creation, and foundation of their galactic empire, knew everything they could do and they had no chance to overcome them. But they did their best to leave clues to how to stop them for future generations. Including the basic plans for the Crucible and the VI locked deep away in the Citadel.
Because of the nature of the Reapers creation they needed evolved and advanced species in order to create new Reapers and to expand their collective conscious, just any old species that had yet to achieve space flight or anything would be too limited in intelligence and consciousness to add to the Reapers, thus their retreating to dark space to return every 50000 years to allow for species to develop, independently, creating an even more diverse and fertile base for the Reapers to harvest.
But by using the Crucible in conjunction with the Citadel they could harness the power of the Citadel, as an intergalactic relay, and that of the intragalactic Relays themselves which are all massive communication and energy transfer devices to send out a sort of energy blast, or message, to all Reapers that would overwhelm their collective consciousnesses and basically make them brain dead thus saving the day.
Then you could choose to Destroy or Control, via muted burst. Relays stay intact. Shep could live or die depending on EMS still. NO MERGE. Geth and EDI survive. THE MOTHERFUCKING END.
The VI would tell you they created the Reapers as servants and used them to create the Mass Relays and the Citadel, the seat of their power and a massive Relay they were developing to travel to other galaxies. They created the Reapers by interning their dead into them to help create and expand their collective conscious, but this process proved disastrous as the Reapers started to change and soon saw themselves as the dominant force, and next step in evolution, in fact the final step, and attacked their creators, harvesting them all to expand their kind/minds.
The Reapers being their own creation, and foundation of their galactic empire, knew everything they could do and they had no chance to overcome them. But they did their best to leave clues to how to stop them for future generations. Including the basic plans for the Crucible and the VI locked deep away in the Citadel.
Because of the nature of the Reapers creation they needed evolved and advanced species in order to create new Reapers and to expand their collective conscious, just any old species that had yet to achieve space flight or anything would be too limited in intelligence and consciousness to add to the Reapers, thus their retreating to dark space to return every 50000 years to allow for species to develop, independently, creating an even more diverse and fertile base for the Reapers to harvest.
But by using the Crucible in conjunction with the Citadel they could harness the power of the Citadel, as an intergalactic relay, and that of the intragalactic Relays themselves which are all massive communication and energy transfer devices to send out a sort of energy blast, or message, to all Reapers that would overwhelm their collective consciousnesses and basically make them brain dead thus saving the day.
Then you could choose to Destroy or Control, via muted burst. Relays stay intact. Shep could live or die depending on EMS still. NO MERGE. Geth and EDI survive. THE MOTHERFUCKING END.
Synthetics are stable unlike organics. You couldnt create a system like the reapers out of organic life, because of the nature of genetics, random mutations and genetic drift and the like. There's no way you could guarantee that an organic system would persist for as long as a synthetic system.
Who knows what the initial motives were for creating the reapers. Maybe they were created by some mad, anti-synthetic fascist group (I think the purpose of the reapers would have been better explained at the end of ME3 by explaining the context in which they were created, personally). Who knows. The motivation behind the genesis of the reapers isn't necessarily clear, but if someone wanted to prevent the creation of advanced synthetic life, for whatever reason ( based either on hard evidence or just prejudice), the reaper system is a sound logical way to do that.
XANDER CAGE
Member
-Why does the story need a mental, rather than physical fight with Harbinger?
-Why do we need a showcase of Shepard's mental state and a first-hand account of how tricky indoctrination can be, especially since we've seen over the course of three games how tricky indoctrination is?
-I'd agree with this if we actually got to see the latter part - the part that would make Shepard's sacrifice at the hands of indoctrination worth it. Still, if he's been indoctrinated, what's the point of a Reaper indoctrinating him if we still win? Who sets off the Crucible if not Shepard?
Well, at least you admit that trying to pull a psychological ending at this stage in the trilogy is a cop-out.
Still, the established themes of doubt in Mass Effect are there to heighten the stakes, not hint at Shepard being a basket case. Virtually every moment of doubt in the series is followed up with a rousing "but we can win!" "you have friends!" "I'm here for you, Shepard!", which I'd argue is much closer to the actual theme of the game: United we stand, scattered we fall. It's been like that since Mass Effect 1.
Also, the whole "my sweet" scene pretty much negates any chance of the ending being in Shepard's head.
It's poorly executed either way. Still, I can at least see what they're going for with the provided endings taken at face value - I just can't see the purpose of an indoctrination ending. It adds nothing and it's no more philosophical than the already pseudo-psychological ending we got.
We honestly need one. I know there are some crazy people on BSN, but some are swearing by the whole 'hallucination' scenario... poor guys
Really BioWare, WHAT THE FUCK?
How the hell didn't all the people who worked on this game, all the people that play-tested before release, project leaders like Casey Hudson (who's been there from the beginning) not realise how disgustingly bad the ending is?
I'm trying very hard not to go overboard here.
Casey was too busy reading Mass Effect Deception and telling us how awesome it was.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
After those final conversations with the team, I was like, "Man, Bioware would have to REALLY fuck up an ending after this final mission/convo/speeh, this shit is awesome"
welp
Wow, this would have been so much more preferable than the explanation we got. Well done.
It could be but the fact the game is over leads me to believe that he's actually dead. If he was to hallucinate I would think it would happen after Anderson dies because Shepherd is just chilling in space and has the weird voice effects on. That's just my guess.
I only found one really odd thing in the game's Coalesced.bin file and that's this, spoilered if it happens to be some amazing reveal for future DLC (I bet not):
There is a whole list of debug menu options for setting which one of your ME3 team killed "AK". All possible squad members, Shepard and the Prothean are available to select. It sets a bunch of dialogue flags and one or two story flags. All the party members set the same flag, and Shepard having killed AK sets both that flag and another. The actual phrasing is "shot" "AK". Who is AK? Is that actually in the game? I would have guessed that it is "Ashley/Kaidan", but that makes no sense in the context of "Shepard killed AK".
Amen, I was talking to my friend over Steam voice-chat during the London segments and I was just blown away.. I was so damn excited.
No motivation to play the thing again... fuck NG+ if galaxy-wide destruction is the only solution.
So why use the Keepers as the guardians of the Citadel which is the most pivotal element of their plans? Why not use a robot?
The Keepers are just as old as the Reapers and the Collectors are possibly the oldest biological species kicking around in the universe.
(And how are synthetics, especially sentient ones, more stable?)
So, it was a mad extremist group that created the Reapers? So their plans were extreme and illogical even at creation?
Pretty sure Ashley and Kaidan can die during the Udina coup. If they don't trust you they will side with Udina and you have to kill them I guess.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
I fuckin' lost it at the yoshi's island music
GrandHarrier
Member
This. A thousand times, this. The entire fucking Earth / London sequence is some of the best gameplay / story telling I've experienced in a very, very long time. I was so... fucking... pumped.
Then I got to the end and I was like...
WiiredShawn
Member
I never said the dream sequences were indoctrination. They might be, they might not be - it doesn't matter really. They simply illustrate Shepard's psychological distress, which is what Harbinger feeds upon.
It's also totally possible that TIM closed the arms. But that has nothing to do with him being physically present when Shepard and Anderson "confront" him. Reapers can easily manipulate people's minds, implant false memories, exploit their feelings to what they want to hear and see. Why is it impossible that the Reapers indoctrinated TIM, used him to close the arms of the Citadel, and then disposed of him? Then, they conjured an image of him that Shepard wanted to see. Why can't he be Harbinger's first line of mental offense against Shepard's will? And then when he fails, he brings in the Catalyst, who assumes the more personal form of the child and tries to convince Shepard that TIM was right all along, just too weak to be in power. There's no reason why this can't be Harbinger using a red herring to lead Shepard down the same path that TIM and Saren chose - false control or false synthesis.
I don't think we're on the same wavelength about this (which is cool, I'm just trying to explain a possible string of logic). There is no need, here. There is no reason why we need a God Kid telling Space Jesus to give up his life when nothing about the game has been so religious up to that point, either. This isn't a matter of what is needed, because there is no way to say what is needed. It's simply a matter of "how do we make sense of this?"
Part of the problem here is we have no idea of what happens "off-screen." Someone could have reached the Crucible after Shepard passed out - we don't know. Part of the problem, too, is that the "Control" and "Synthesis" ending should provide a more "realistic" depiction of what happens rather than what I'm suggesting is Shepard's own personal imaginations.
As for the themes of doubt, who is to say that they have to be so straightforward? Who is to say that this ending sequence is a moment where Shepard is alone, with no social support to ease her doubts, and Harbinger is capitalizing on the doubt she's been hiding all this time. The idea of lying to oneself, or accepting the well wishes of others as a form of consolation is a more interesting idea than FFXIII's whole "The power of friendship always wins!!" bullshit. This theory doesn't fly in the face, though, of that "United we stand" - it's simply a test of your resolve for that very idea. It's Harbinger trying to sway you from your self-determination. It's a final battle of wits, and you can either win or lose by a choice. Isn't that relevant in the context of the series?
Like I said earlier, I don't know about the "my sweet" section. I think it's superfluous and confusing, but considering the final dream sequence, when Shepard is squatting next to the child, it could work out as Shepard imagining a far, far future in which an older man (himself) connects to a child (that damn one from the beginning) through a story. It doesn't work for FemShep, obviously, but I accept that FemShep is not "canon."
EmCeeGramr
Member
Psychoward
Banned
The thing is, with all the endings being basically the same, I wouldn't even mind that if done right.
What if you get to the Crucible with your squad, and you realize the only way to destroy the reapers is to destroy the current system, which would kill everyone in it. Or osmething, I dunno, almost anything would be better than the pile of shit we have now.
What if you get to the Crucible with your squad, and you realize the only way to destroy the reapers is to destroy the current system, which would kill everyone in it. Or osmething, I dunno, almost anything would be better than the pile of shit we have now.
When the Catalyst was saying "they got this far means it failed" he was not specifically talking about shepard, as much as he was talking about organics period.
The reason "it" failed, meaning this whole process of coming in every 50k years to slaughter anyone smart enough to make AI (which the entire premise itself is stupid because I'm pretty fuckin sure that by the time we went to mars we'd have a developed AI ala 2001 Space Odyssey's HAL BEFORE we start spreading out dreadnaughts to the stars) has failed because the simple fact that organics can even reach the catalyst and pose this much of a threat in the first place.
What this means is they could wipe out all the races now if they wanted to including shepard, but it's highly likely that in the future it will be even easier for future races to usurp the reapers in future cycles (periods of 50k years)
That's why the Catalyst (which was an idea implemented later on in future designs because at some point some race learned that the Citadel was basically an inert Reaper) gave you those options. Again it was an example of them forcing organics to develop along lines they wanted. Also, it's rather obvious that the Reapers themselves have been intellectually stagnant for quite a long time, as said by the Catalyst when they hooked up the Crucible when he said something along the lines of "this gave me ideas I didn't consider before" or something like that. Adding that new tech allowed the Catalyst (who is the "control switch" of the Reapers which also makes sense why it can't enable itself) to think a bit differently.
If you never talk to kaiden/ashley before cerberus shows up on the citadel, when you do the whole udina coup thing, cerberus shows them some doctored video files of you doing bad things. AK believes this and you end up having to shoot them down and they die.
The Librarian
Banned
This. A thousand times, this. The entire fucking Earth / London sequence is some of the best gameplay / story telling I've experienced in a very, very long time. I was so... fucking... pumped.
Then I got to the end and I was like...
Indeed.
Blue Ninja
Member
Also, the voice-acting in that final segment is horrible. Holy fuck. :lol
And I agree with GrandHarrier.
And I agree with GrandHarrier.
Yep, they're also not available, there's no "Ashley shot AK" option so that is presumably it.
Just to confirm this. Yes, they can die on the confrontation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFzbTwSXOQ0
And this thread is starting to move fast....
Their goals and motivations may have been extreme and illogical, but the system they created to achieve these goals is logically sound.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
We all cope with bad situations in our own way. Have a heart, dude.
Some people are also suggesting indoctrination.
-.O
I think we may have a different definition of logical.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
We all are
I don't know... wouldn't be easier just to connect all relays to the citadel and as soon as someone appears go the homeworld and clean up?
And since ME3 made that the cycles are leaving information to the next one (hence the Crucible) keeping the 50000 years fixed is a risk that some civilization gets a jump start (like the Asari did, but bigger) and it's to late.
I understand the theme organic/synthetic, but it did come out of nowhere and really does not fit with everything that was presented before.
But it's there you are making quite a nonsensical leap. The cards are laid properly for the Illusive Man to get there. Why should it be a dream? Because you simply don't like the ending? No where does the story set up this option. The theme with the dreams in the game is guilt and not indoctrination. That's why Shepard is down because he failed to stop Kai Leng. He failed to get the item everyone sacrificed their lives for and sacrificed the people of Thessia for nothing. If Harbinger had indoctrinated him, they would have killed him plain and simply and have him commit suicide. Why go through all of the trouble to have a dream when they can simply fire the beam again to kill him? It's stupid. Even worse than what is actually presented as the real ending.
The reapers never conjured the image of someone in the series before. Benezia and Saren knew what they were doing. Benezia tried to resist because the influence was too strong and still recalled everything what happened. She didn't start seeing illusions of Liara around. If it was all a dream then you wouldn't see all that dumb normandy crap in the end after you destroy the reapers. Nor you would see the scene with the grandpa and kid which is the last scene you see.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
People are...finishing
Pollux
Member
I really like this. And it really, actually, makes sense.
WiiredShawn
Member
I hate when people say things like this, and don't explain why. Popular hatred doesn't make something fact. I've stated multiple points that lend themselves to the interpretation of hallucination/indoctrination, as have others. If you want to make sense out of the ending (and that's all I'm trying to do, not make it seem good), then this theory is the most reasonable one available.
It's about the only logical way to explain how Shepard wakes up among a pile of Earth rubble, but only in the Destroy ending, and only with a large enough EMS. If there are alternative explanations for that, outside of "lol Bioware sux," then I'd be happy to hear them.
Let me just say first that I appreciate your exchange - I think it's worthwhile to debate the merits of these ideas instead of just throwing them to the side.
Let me clearer, too: I'm not saying TIM did not reach the Citadel or close the arms. By all accounts, he did those things. But because of how little the game actually says about his actions following the battle with Kai Leng, I don't see why we should automatically assume he is physically real during the confrontation. What was stopping the Reapers from using him to close the arms and then disposing of him afterward? They would have done it to Saren, most likely.
True, the game has never showed us what indoctrination actually looks like. But there have been multiple accounts of hearing voices in your head, leading you to the will of the Reapers. Also, in ME2, we do know that the Reaper caused the scientists working on the IFF to see things that never existed in their minds. So I don't think at all that the dreams represent indoctrination; they are clearly just Shepard's guilt and sadness. But I am saying that it's that faltering in her mental state that makes her susceptible to Harbinger's influence. Why should Harbinger want to do this? Who knows, but there's enough indication in the second game that Harbinger loves to screw with people, especially Shepard. Every time you encounter him, he tries to mentally break Shepard down. Every time, Shepard resists, which probably pisses him off royally. This is his moment to finally break Shepard, to mentally destroy and indoctrinate that one person who succeeded in resisting the Reapers. You are a trophy to him.
But still you resist, even with TIM. So Harbinger digs in your memory banks, comes up with the child, and tries to pass it off as the Catalyst, an omnipresent force that "knows best." There is enough indication in the Catalyst's dialogue that he does not want you to choose the Destroy ending - the ending, it so happens, where you can wake up, even though the Catalyst tried to suggest that you would die because you are "partly synthetic." The ending, then, is a final battle of your resolve - fought on the psychological, rather than the physical plane. It lines up with the psychological elements introduced by the dreams.
Thus, the ending sequence with Joker (and maybe even the grandpa) is Shepard imagining the consequences of her actions. If it's literal, then the ending cannot make sense at all. No stretch of logic can allow a physically battered person to survive a pulse of fire to the face, an explosion, a ride through space, and a plummet to the ground. That's just too impossible.
djplaeskool
Member
Hallucination?
Oh boy. This is reaching "Rinoa is Ultimecia" levels of stark raving madness.
Oh boy. This is reaching "Rinoa is Ultimecia" levels of stark raving madness.
mercenar1e
Member
some people are saying Shepard is indoctrinated and the kid is an illusion trying to trick Shepard into saving the reapers.. lol
The Antitype
Banned
If I trick the Krogan and sabotage the cure, do I still get the full support of the Krogans along with the Salarians?
Mike Gamble the producer tweeted that he was sick of whining and said it was fortunate that gamer rage does not last long.
He quickly removed the tweet but I think the fans are really tearing up their forums right now.
Bioware has to make statement because their loyal fanbase is turning against them.
He quickly removed the tweet but I think the fans are really tearing up their forums right now.
Bioware has to make statement because their loyal fanbase is turning against them.
Get out.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
We try to make illogical things logical..no matter the cost
ViewtifulJC
Banned
We have reached a new level of ending reaction, ladies and gentlemen
It's an matter of interpretation, and since the ending is so lacking in details and exposition, you can pretty much make anything out of it. In the absence of any strong... hints... that Bioware did this on purpose, I'm sticking with what is there and not trying to fit on any theory.
I would be happy to proven wrong, but for now I think is just filling to many blanks with wishful thinking... and it still doesn't explain to post-credits scene or the dialog that appears saying something like "command Shepard is a legend for stopping the reapers... now go play DLC".
HarryHengst
Member
How can the truth be the worst?
I really don't understand how they didn't see this coming
Did they actually think those endings were sufficient?
Thanks and it only took me 5 minutes to come up with.
Honestly there was nothing wrong with keeping the Reapers as a purely sinister and evil entities bent on harvesting and killing Organics for their own purposes/survival. We didnt need any kind of lofty explanation to their actions.
Even then my explanation is perhaps deeper since you realize that in some messed up way the Reapers collective conscious is the last remnants and incarnation, although extremely warped and perverted, of the entire span of the galaxy. Thousands of species and cultures preserved in Reaper form, but its them or us. And I choose us.
There would have been nothing interesting about it, either.
Basically. BioWare doesn't do themes or philosophies well. The Reapers were a fine 'unknown menace' that only had to have the motivation to destroy life as we knew it. Sprinkle a few theories throughout the game but don't commit to any and you're golden.
HarryHengst
Member
Sorry you failed to make the right decisions in ME2 and 3, because you can make peace between the Geth and Quarians.
Someone has a pic of that tweet? This is amazing. BRB going on BSN.
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