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[andthebeatgoeson]

I just posted one.

yeah but ur leaks require that I understand how PCs work and I don't.

Fukkin CPU, GPU, DSP. WTF?

 

[z0m3le]

Yes, and remember those demos were on underclocked, overheating dev kits, that we know for sure (thanks to developers working on the kits) got a "surprising" performance increase.

I'm not saying the Wii U drastically increased in power, only that the demos we saw, should be doable in "real" games.

 

[VAPitts]

this has been said b4 many many times but for the people that really are interested in it, they except it for the power it has and the fact it'll be able to play great games. also, that it WILL be able to handle future ports. I can't predict the future but, in any case, nobody can. so to say that the other 2 consoles are going to be SOOOOO powerful, based off of nothing but rumors; that's right, NOTHING BUT RUMORS so far, is farfetched. so to sit back and proverbially point the finger at the Wii U's shortcomings is quite ignorant. my whole point is that i know this console is going to be able to handle w/e come hell or highwater. much like the Gamecube could, (but of course a lot of 3rd parties didn't want try it) but those of you who have the most critiquing and the most negative things to say about it, do not want the Wii U. Nor do you really care about it. your here to troll and that's that. again i know i've stated the obvious, but i thought i'd share where i stand on this. i know it's not important but i think it's something that needed to be said.

 

[ozfunghi]

Doesn't seem that unfair right now.

Your logic is laughable.

So a developer says it's on par with 360. Yet the same developer said last year it's more powerful. But that fact should be swept under the rug? Only the most pessimistic quotes should get attention? Both quotes contradict, so both should be questioned. So when the newer, more pessimistic quote arises, the other quote SHOULD be brought up. Regardless of which quote we would rather see turn out to be true. When one quote comes from the technical director and the other from the creative director, that provides some context. This is exactly what happened.

What makes it even more laughable, is the fact, that even the second quote from Vigil, the one claiming it's on par with current gen, flies in the face of Arkam claiming they had a hard time porting he game to the WiiU. The guy from Vigil recomfirmed what the other guys from Vigil said, that they had it running in no time.

So you tell me. What exactly should we go by?

 

[wsippel]

Interesting. Have you any more info about the DSP? First I've heard of it.

I know that unlike the 360 or PS3, the Wii U has one for hardware accelerated audio processing and mixing. And that's pretty much it.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Could Nintendo enable 3DS users to to play the 3DS games on the TV with the lower screen being displayed on the upad?

The uPad has all the buttons and a second slide pad to support the circle pad pro.

You could just connect your 3DS with your WiiU, streaming the game from the 3DS to the WiiU while the 3DS sits closed in the docking station.

No more likely than doing the same with DS and Wii. Wii U is made with streaming a video signal in mind, the portables are not.

It seems we can completely rule out the whole two tablets on one console feature since the tablets seem to affect performance.

Each player in a 4-player split-screen Mario Kart match isn't going to get the same fidelity as one of them would get in single-player, but it's not like they'd banish split-screen from the system because of it. Multi-pad situation should be analogous, as long as there's no trouble with actually streaming to multiple devices.

 

[ColdBlooder]

wsippel:

Work at ubisoft?

 

[cyberheater]

I know that unlike the 360 or PS3, the Wii U has one for hardware accelerated audio processing and mixing. And that's pretty much it.

That should take a small percentage of the strain off the CPU. Every little helps.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

so it is a good time to feel down on the WiiU?

at least when we get passed this phase of hardware let downs its all about the games from there

 

[wsippel]

I guess I should clarify the statement a bit further: A company I won't name wrote that their engine performs "roughly the same and in some cases better" on Wii U. The engine in question is completely CPU bound, so the GPU doesn't matter and the DSP wasn't used. Said company also notes that the Wii U version now performs an order of magnitude faster compared to previous releases, which helps explaining some statements by 3rd parties: unoptimized middleware can bring even the strongest system to its knees.

Anyway, as the piece is strictly talking about software performance, stuff like OS overhead wasn't taken into account (they only used the resources available to developers). The 360 version also had tons of updates by now, so there's probably still room for further optimizations on both ends, the OS and the engine itself. But at this point, the systems seem roughly comparable, with the Wii U having the edge.

wsippel:

Work at ubisoft?

Nope. I just happen to pick up some crumbs every now and then.

That should take a small percentage of the strain off the CPU. Every little helps.

The percentage isn't even that small. It also frees up the memory bus, as audio is highly time critical and DSPs have their own local buffers.

 

[AzaK]

Just read something official (middleware documentation I won't link here) that made it sound like the Wii U CPU should perform roughly comparable to Xenon for the most part, and better in some cases. So while the CPU itself is only slightly better, the fact that the system can offload stuff to the GPU and DSP leaves more computational performance for logic and AI. That's pretty much in line with my expectations.

Did your info mention the number of cores as that obviously matters too. If its 3 like Xenon that's a little bit of a bummer if only because I'd imagine the PS4 and 720 will be a good bump from their last iterations. I guess it depends if devs want that power or will just go with the lowest common denominator for their AI, physics etc.

 

[wsippel]

Did your info mention the number of cores as that obviously matters too. If its 3 like Xenon that's a little bit of a bummer if only because I'd imagine the PS4 and 720 will be a good bump from their last iterations. I guess it depends if devs want that power or will just go with the lowest common denominator for their AI, physics etc.

The document is strictly about software performance, it doesn't mention anything about the hardware itself.

 

[z0m3le]

The document is strictly about software performance, it doesn't mention anything about the hardware itself.

Is this that "popular" engine document that was given out by Nintendo somewhere around a month ago?

 

[Plinko]

Again, I'm not sure why this information is surprising to anyone. I strongly believe that Nintendo has found their "niche" in the gaming industry--offering systems that are a bit less-powered than MS/Sony (i.e., 3DS, Wii, Wii U) but offer a more unique and wider variety of play styles.

My guess is this next generation is only a 5-year cycle for Nintendo and they release the successor to the Wii U sometime in 2017. MS/Sony probably stay in the cycle a little longer, and Nintendo now has the "halfway/stopgap system that is more powerful for a couple years" spot.

 

[fabricated backlash]

so it is a good time to feel down on the WiiU?

at least when we get passed this phase of hardware let downs its all about the games from there

I guess. We're in the pre E3 2006 stage where the specs of the Wii slowly solidified as being indeed merely a souped up GC. Many tears were shed (eventhough I wasn't part of Gaf back then, it's easy to imagine it being so) and slowly slowly, the games itself, the new pointer controls began taking center stage in the discussion.
The brutal thing with WiiU is, that even with some games announced, (Darksiders2, Metro 2034, C.A.R.S.) we know almost nothing about how these games are taking advantage of the controller. Will we be able to use the Upad as a steering wheel? It should work like a charm and with a shell to put it in, it could be a cheap entry level wheel for starters, add some pedals and most people would be set. metro could put the whole hud on the Touchscreen, making survival even harder and planning and awareness that more crucial.

But it's all useless speculation right now since we don't even know about how the gameplay is going to get implemented.

 

[wsippel]

Is this that "popular" engine document that was given out by Nintendo somewhere around a month ago?

No. But it is an engine quite a few popular games use.

 

[boyshine]

Anyone else surprised that EA Sports dropped Wii for this years Tiger Woods game? It’s very unlike EA to drop support this early, so I’m betting on a Wii U launch release for TWPGA13 with MotionPlus, Balance Board support and „ball view” on the U controller. Best golf game ever, and a day 1 must-buy if real.

 

[wsippel]

I guess. We're in the pre E3 2006 stage where the specs of the Wii slowly solidified as being indeed merely a souped up GC. Many tears were shed (eventhough I wasn't part of Gaf back then, it's easy to imagine it being so) and slowly slowly, the games itself, the new pointer controls began taking center stage in the discussion.
The brutal thing with WiiU is, that even with some games announced, (Darksiders2, Metro 2034, C.A.R.S.) we know almost nothing about how these games are taking advantage of the controller. Will we be able to use the Upad as a steering wheel? It should work like a charm and with a shell to put it in, it could be a cheap entry level wheel for starters, add some pedals and most people would be set. metro could put the whole hud on the Touchscreen, making survival even harder and planning and awareness that more crucial.

But it's all useless speculation right now since we don't even know about how the gameplay is going to get implemented.

Assuming Last Light keeps the clipboard, I guess that's what's on the touchscreen.

 

[ozfunghi]

No. But it is an engine quite a few popular games use.

AI? Physics?

 

[wsippel]

AI? Physics?

If I even said that much, the company would be easily identified and we'd lose another rare source of information.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Assuming Last Light keeps the clipboard, I guess that's what's on the touchscreen.

I guess, but it is frustrating to speculate about these things right now. At least with specs there is some stuff to go on, but the only real hints we've got about the implementation of the UPad were through excuses about developers not making WiiU games as the UPad required "truly original games"

Such a pathethic excuse.

 

[ozfunghi]

If I even said that much, the company would be easily identified and we'd lose another rare source of information.

Whisper it in my ear

 

[z0m3le]

I'm starting to think the Wii U's CPU is closer to 2ghz than 3ghz; wsippel, was it confirmed that the IBM cpu in the Wii U would have multithreaded cores? if so, I really have to imagine that it's more a matter of optimization than the cpu just being on par.

 

[MDX]

The percentage isn't even that small. It also frees up the memory bus, as audio is highly time critical and DSPs have their own local buffers.

Could be an ARM processor and it could possibly do more than sound, like allow users to web browse, be used for standby mode, etc. The gamecube's DSP had access to 16MB of memory from what I recall.

 

[MDX]

Here is an example of how I think Nintendo will recapture or broaden their market:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNhkqBGfJjA

Commercial is in Dutch, but anyone will get the point.
Its a natural progression of the Wii, which brought families back together in the living room. Except they had to choose to either to continue to play games or watch TV.

 

[cyberheater]

I guess I should clarify the statement a bit further: A company I won't name wrote that their engine performs "roughly the same and in some cases better" on Wii U. The engine in question is completely CPU bound, so the GPU doesn't matter and the DSP wasn't used. Said company also notes that the Wii U version now performs an order of magnitude faster compared to previous releases, which helps explaining some statements by 3rd parties: unoptimized middleware can bring even the strongest system to its knees.

Anyway, as the piece is strictly talking about software performance, stuff like OS overhead wasn't taken into account (they only used the resources available to developers). The 360 version also had tons of updates by now, so there's probably still room for further optimizations on both ends, the OS and the engine itself. But at this point, the systems seem roughly comparable, with the Wii U having the edge.

So we need to find out how strong the GPU is now to have a basic understanding of the power of the system.

 

[IdeaMan]

Just read something official (middleware documentation I won't link here) that made it sound like the Wii U CPU should perform roughly comparable to Xenon for the most part, and better in some cases. So while the CPU itself is only slightly better, the fact that the system can offload stuff to the GPU and DSP leaves more computational performance for logic and AI. That's pretty much in line with my expectations.

Interesting. I think i already hinted/said in the thread 2 that the Wii U CPU won't be much more powerful than Xenon, that even if all the components must reach some kind of balance, the 1/2x to 5x "more powerful or in number" concerns some parts, some others will be closer to 1,5x/2x for example. Still, nothing to worry, in this day and age, the vast majority of games are more GPU dependent than CPU. The more modern tech use in design and customization for gaming will result in a good-enough and efficient CPU tailored for what Nintendo want for their system. Add the DSP that will greatly reduce the resources consumption from the CPU for all the audio, the parts of the GPU for other purposes than graphics, etc. Expect some micro-processors (ARM or others, maybe a beefier Starlet) to handle all the I/O, wireless, streaming, security stuff, perhaps some background applications, how the Wii U manage its standby mode/switching between game and OS, etc. In the end, the CPU will be free of a lot of things to do.

My sole fear is that they could monopolize a good chunk of a core for the OS. As i said in a previous post, the status in a V4 context is rather intriguing on this matter as the OS/Background occupy a surprising large amount of the total memory, so i hope it's not the case for the CPU also. It will be cool to have another processor dedicated to it, to free all the main cpu cores for games.

And i guess the Wii U CPU could be viewed as not clearly more powerful than Xenon in a tons of way, if you compare them theoretically on paper and through a particular spectrum. And with the release of newer dev kits and (as you said) the expected optimization of the software used for this comparison between the CPU, the situation in this specific case can only get better. There's no doubt that for games, coded for its specificities, the Wii U CPU will be good enough.

 

[Ithil]

We're getting to that stage where we're too close to E3 to get any new information, but also where pure speculation and "anonymous" sources for info are not enough to be satisfying for discussion.

I don't like this stage. It's tiresome. Roll on E3 and some concrete info to put us out of our misery.

 

[jump_button]

We're getting to that stage where we're too close to E3 to get any new information, but also where pure speculation and "anonymous" sources for info are not enough to be satisfying for discussion.

I don't like this stage. It's tiresome. Roll on E3 and some concrete info to put us out of our misery.

 

[Rösti]

But only eleven days until PAX East, where Nintendo will be exhibiting. As I wrote in an earlier post, they have booked a very small booth and I wonder what they will show. Perhaps they are bringing a very limited amount of Wii U demo units for people to frantically assault the booth as happened at E3 last year. More likely though is a rather discrete demonstration of upcoming or current Nintendo 3DS games, but a potential and likely absence of Wii U at this event, due to it being open to the public, will bring a heap of questions that Nintendo may find difficult to answer.

Hopefully this rumored NDA lift will happen tomorrow so we don't have to rely on any shaky cam footage and ambiguous PR ramble by Kit Ellis & Co. It's been time anyway since GDC for Reggie to actually prove that what he said at CES 2012 about more Wii U info coming prior to E3 was true.

PAX East show floor: http://hw1.pa-cdn.com/pax/resources/PAX_East_2012_Expo_Map.pdf

 

[jump_button]

But only eleven days until PAX East, where Nintendo will be exhibiting. As I wrote in an earlier post, they have booked a very small booth and I wonder what they will show. Perhaps they are bringing a very limited amount of Wii U demo units for people to frantically assault the booth as happened at E3 last year. More likely though is a rather discrete demonstration of upcoming or current Nintendo 3DS games, but a potential and likely absence of Wii U at this event, due to it being open to the public, will bring a heap of questions that Nintendo may find difficult to answer.

Hopefully this rumored NDA lift will happen tomorrow so we don't have to rely on any shaky cam footage and ambiguous PR ramble by Kit Ellis & Co. It's been time anyway since GDC for Reggie to actually prove that what he said at CES 2012 about more Wii U info coming prior to E3 was true.

PAX East show floor: http://hw1.pa-cdn.com/pax/resources/PAX_East_2012_Expo_Map.pdf

I can only hope they give use something if just to stop all the PS360 BS cant think what but apart from maybe showing what was at GDC? well some of it

-_- i just hope it not just ports they could had done that at E3 but pick not too so I hope they dont cave in

 

[AceBandage]

I can only hope they give use something if just to stop all the PS360 BS cant think what but apart from maybe showing what was at GDC? well some of it

-_- i just hope it not just ports they could had done that at E3 but pick not too so I hope they dont cave in

Not sure what you mean.
If the NDA lift is true, it'll be for just multiplatform games, and very very few of them will look any better on the Wii U.
Not because of power, but because they're late ports with minimal effort. Just like Darksiders 2. It's really a shame that they won't even add AA to that game, because it looks amazing with just that added on PC (which isn't an option and has to be forced).

 

[z0m3le]

I can only hope they give use something if just to stop all the PS360 BS cant think what but apart from maybe showing what was at GDC? well some of it

-_- i just hope it not just ports they could had done that at E3 but pick not too so I hope they dont cave in

The PS360 BS won't stop after E3, those Demos are above PS360, but there is too much hate for that to be the general consensus.

Wii U will be more powerful than PS360, in some ways it will be by magnitudes and in some less important ways, it will be just a little better. After watching those Demos that were on underclocked hardware though, you should have nothing to fear.

 

[lwilliams3]

I guess I should clarify the statement a bit further: A company I won't name wrote that their engine performs "roughly the same and in some cases better" on Wii U. The engine in question is completely CPU bound, so the GPU doesn't matter and the DSP wasn't used. Said company also notes that the Wii U version now performs an order of magnitude faster compared to previous releases, which helps explaining some statements by 3rd parties: unoptimized middleware can bring even the strongest system to its knees.

Anyway, as the piece is strictly talking about software performance, stuff like OS overhead wasn't taken into account (they only used the resources available to developers). The 360 version also had tons of updates by now, so there's probably still room for further optimizations on both ends, the OS and the engine itself. But at this point, the systems seem roughly comparable, with the Wii U having the edge.



Nope. I just happen to pick up some crumbs every now and then.



The percentage isn't even that small. It also frees up the memory bus, as audio is highly time critical and DSPs have their own local buffers.

Are you saying that the unoptimized engine was previously running 10% of Xenos? Also, any idea on the average amount of cpu cycles a dsp will save the wii U cpu?

 

[z0m3le]

Are you saying that the unoptimized engine was previously running 10% of Xenos? Also, any idea on the average amount of cpu cycles a dsp will save the wii U cpu?

No... He said that the engine originally ran a bit better then xenon can run it, this is after the latest kits, it runs multiples of times better then on the previous dev kits. xenos was never brought up.

 

[HanShotFirst]

But only eleven days until PAX East, where Nintendo will be exhibiting. As I wrote in an earlier post, they have booked a very small booth and I wonder what they will show. Perhaps they are bringing a very limited amount of Wii U demo units for people to frantically assault the booth as happened at E3 last year. More likely though is a rather discrete demonstration of upcoming or current Nintendo 3DS games, but a potential and likely absence of Wii U at this event, due to it being open to the public, will bring a heap of questions that Nintendo may find difficult to answer.

Hopefully this rumored NDA lift will happen tomorrow so we don't have to rely on any shaky cam footage and ambiguous PR ramble by Kit Ellis & Co. It's been time anyway since GDC for Reggie to actually prove that what he said at CES 2012 about more Wii U info coming prior to E3 was true.

PAX East show floor: http://hw1.pa-cdn.com/pax/resources/PAX_East_2012_Expo_Map.pdf

Technically we did get info on Nintendo Network so he wouldn't be lying.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

I was hoping for a nice stripped down POWER7, without all the bulk, and 4 cores, clocked at 3+ GHz

 

[Christine]

As i said in a previous post, the status in a V4 context is rather intriguing on this matter as the OS/Background occupy a surprising large amount of the total memory

Please let this mean that Nintendo is actually serious about network services.

 

[Rösti]

Technically we did get info on Nintendo Network so he wouldn't be lying.

While technically correct, would he really refer to information coming from an IR event when talking about releasing more information about Wii U prior to E3? Sure, the information was posted via various news outlets, but it still was rather vague as it gave little information about any Wii U games or its technical specifications (excluding the info regarding NFC). I also wouldn't say it was any greater hype creator; what Reggie meant was probably the announcement/reveal of a certain game or some preview featuring new content (updated tech demos etc.).

Red Steel, the first Wii game to be shown, not counting the Metroid Prime 3 clip at E3 2005 and the Metroid Prime 2: Echoes demos at Tokyo Game Show the same year, was unveiled in the May 2006 issue of Game Informer. Maybe something similar will happen this time around, though earlier.

 

[HanShotFirst]

While technically correct, would he really refer to information coming from an IR event when talking about releasing more information about Wii U prior to E3? Sure, the information was posted via various news outlets, but it still was rather vague as it gave little information about any Wii U games or its technical specifications (excluding the info regarding NFC). I also wouldn't say it was any greater hype creator; what Reggie meant was probably the announcement/reveal of a certain game or some preview featuring new content (updated tech demos etc.).

Red Steel, the first Wii game to be shown, not counting the Metroid Prime 3 clip at E3 2005 and the Metroid Prime 2: Echoes demos at Tokyo Game Show the same year, was unveiled in the May 2006 issue of Game Informer. Maybe something similar will happen this time around, though earlier.

Yeah, you're probably right. And I do think its possible that we'll get some kind of information regarding the Wii U before E3 but I don't think it would be anything significant, at least nothing significant about the actual system. Hopefully the NDA rumors are true and we'll hear more about the games being developed for the system.

 

[Übermatik]

Please let this mean that Nintendo is actually serious about network services.

Judging by their focus in talks about constant connectivity with friends, viewing your contacts playing games etc. and being able to jump in to help them out, I can see this happening.

Nintendo are becoming increasingly concerned with connectivity.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Hopefully we'll get some solid leaks soon.

 

[spekkeh]

WiiU will be backwards compatible with the Wii right?

I still have Xenoblade left to play before I sell all my Wii stuff, but I'm thinking about just doing it now, and playing the game on WiiU instead. I was always put off by the game because of how incredibly long it takes. But it seems ideal that I could just play it on the subscreen (it'll look terrible on a big screen anyway) while the missus is watching tv besides me.

 

[AceBandage]

WiiU will be backwards compatible with the Wii right?

I still have Xenoblade left to play before I sell all my Wii stuff, but I'm thinking about just doing it now, and playing the game on WiiU instead. I was always put off by the game because of how incredibly long it takes. But it seems ideal that I could just play it on the subscreen (it'll look terrible on a big screen anyway) while the missus is watching tv besides me.

Yes, fully BC with all Wii games and accessories.

 

[Gianni Merryman]

Hopefully we'll get some solid leaks soon.

Are you thinking of that - perhaps banned - French website?

Nintendo for sure should be supposedly more careful not to let any leaks out this time around, since they must have figured out eventually who did break the NDA last year.

 

[AceBandage]

Are you thinking of that - perhaps banned - French website?

Nintendo for sure should be supposedly more careful not to let any leaks out this time around, since they must have figured out who broke the NDA last year.

We all figured it out within days.
It was Ubisoft.
Their employees have big mouths.

 

[Kjellson]

So...

Is the future looking grim?

I've been out of touch recently, lol.

 

[AceBandage]

So...

Is the future looking grim?

I've been out of touch recently, lol.

In what way?
The future is looking the same as it always has.
From June 2011 to Today, there has not been any radical changes to what we know.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Are you thinking of that - perhaps banned - French website?

Nintendo for sure should be supposedly more careful not to let any leaks out this time around, since they must have figured out eventually who did break the NDA last year.

From them, or more likely, from other sources. We'll see.

 

[Christine]

In what way?
The future is looking the same as it always has.
From June 2011 to Today, there has not been any radical changes to what we know.

I used to think that Nintendo's reputation for secrecy and information control was, to put it mildly, radically overstated.