Support NeoGAF

[Kud Dukan]

mcfrank, I'm curious if you know the answer to this...from everything we know about how they are filming these films, if there ends up being a large backlash against how the 48 FPS look, is there anything they could do make it resemble a traditional 24 FPS film, or are they basically stuck with how it looks now? Just curious...I'm a complete noob when it comes to this stuff.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

So fatter people are better than skinnier people?

Yes. Which is why I have such low self esteem right now. One day I'll get there.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Ok, I just outputted a file in 48p with the RED, it's gonna get some time getting used to. But there is significantly less motion blur and it's pretty crisp. I like it in some ways, but yeah.... I'll upload it soon.

Two clips, each about 500 mb. Is that cool with everyone?

mcfrank, I'm curious if you know the answer to this...from everything we know about how they are filming these films, if there ends up being a large backlash against how the 48 FPS look, is there anything they could do make it resemble a traditional 24 FPS film, or are they basically stuck with how it looks now? Just curious...I'm a complete noob when it comes to this stuff.

Yes they can make it look exactly like a 24p film. you can cut the frames in half and lower the shutter speed. They made sure that it was an option they could fall back on.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Ok, I just outputted a file in 48p with the RED, it's gonna get some time getting used to. But there is significantly less motion blur and it's pretty crisp. I like it in some ways, but yeah.... I'll upload it soon.

Two clips, each about 500 mb. Is that cool with everyone?

zomg lemme download

 

[mcfrank]

All this talk about exposure and shutter angle and motion blur are technical choices that other than 'mechanical sync' aren't deterrents to quality (again ).

No. no. no. If it was just technical and not an artistic choice then Saving Private Ryan would not have won the Oscar for best Cinematography for its (at the time) innovate use of narrow shutter angles to give the war scene more visceral impact. Frame rate and shutter angle are an artistic and aesthetic choice in film making. I am sorry, but you are just wrong on this.

 

[mcfrank]

mcfrank, I'm curious if you know the answer to this...from everything we know about how they are filming these films, if there ends up being a large backlash against how the 48 FPS look, is there anything they could do make it resemble a traditional 24 FPS film, or are they basically stuck with how it looks now? Just curious...I'm a complete noob when it comes to this stuff.

If they shot it at 48FPS with an open or 360 degree shutter then each frame would be exposed for 1/48th of a second which is the same as traditional filming (24FPS with a 180degree shutter = each frame exposed for 1/48th of a second)

I honestly have no idea if that would look good or bad, I have never seen it. But it would certainly look more like a "normal" movie than 48FPS with a 180 degree or 270 degree shutter.

Also they can conform it to 24FPS and project at 24FPS (which is how it will be in most theaters) which will look normal to most people. People who know what they are looking for could tell though.

 

[cutmeamango]

True but that was to address the 60FPS is always better crowd. Late 80s television proves that it is, in fact, not always better.

And sorry but 60i = 60p?! Come again?

You must have encoded videos sometime and have some knowledge of animation (traditional of course).

No. no. no. If it was just technical and not an artistic choice then Saving Private Ryan would not have won the Oscar for best Cinematography for its (at the time) innovate use of narrow shutter angles to give the war scene more visceral impact. Frame rate and shutter angle are an artistic and aesthetic choice in film making. I am sorry, but you are just wrong on this.

As I said... they are not deterrent to quality, other movies use wide shutter and still are movies. That's my point.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

If they shot it at 48FPS with an open or 360 degree shutter then each frame would be exposed for 1/48th of a second which is the same as traditional filming (24FPS with a 180degree shutter = each frame exposed for 1/48th of a second)

I honestly have no idea if that would look good or bad, I have never seen it. But it would certainly look more like a "normal" movie than 48FPS with a 180 degree or 270 degree shutter.

The trailer is in 24p, if you have seen that, then that is what 24p would look like.

 

[Branduil]

Ok, I just outputted a file in 48p with the RED, it's gonna get some time getting used to. But there is significantly less motion blur and it's pretty crisp. I like it in some ways, but yeah.... I'll upload it soon.

Two clips, each about 500 mb. Is that cool with everyone?

Yes they can make it look exactly like a 24p film. you can cut the frames in half and lower the shutter speed. They made sure that it was an option they could fall back on.

Keep in mind your clips are going to have some judder not present in The Hobbit to match the 60hz refresh rate of most monitors.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

QUICK! Recommend me places to upload these files! at least 600mb!!!

 

[Truant]

I don't think anyone is defening panning artifacts, but both 24 and 48 have their drawbacks.

Doesn't Michael Mann shoot in 30, and then convert to 24 afterwards? That still looks like shit, even at 24 frames, so I don't know.

 

[PlayDat]

QUICK! Recommend me places to upload these files! at least 600mb!!!

Try megauplo.. oh right.

 

[mcfrank]

The trailer is in 24p, if you have seen that, then that is what 24p would look like.

It is conformed to 24p, not shot at 48FPS with an open shutter and project at 48FPS which is what I was talking about.

 

[pxleyes]

QUICK! Recommend me places to upload these files! at least 600mb!!!

http://ge.tt/

 

[nomis]

Ok, I just outputted a file in 48p with the RED, it's gonna get some time getting used to. But there is significantly less motion blur and it's pretty crisp. I like it in some ways, but yeah.... I'll upload it soon.

Two clips, each about 500 mb. Is that cool with everyone?

OMG

 

[mcfrank]

QUICK! Recommend me places to upload these files! at least 600mb!!!

I will host it let me PM you.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

http://ge.tt/

Thanks! Uploading now.

 

[soldat7]

So fatter people are better than skinnier people?

yes

lol

 

[nomis]

yes

 

[Grakl]

yes

Excellent.

 

[Branduil]

Not to steal blurei's thunder, but I found a couple framerate comparison videos from a previous thread. They're low-quality but they give a good idea of what 60 fps adds.

30fps vs. 60fps

24fps vs. 60fps

 

[cutmeamango]

Not to steal blurei's thunder, but I found a couple framerate comparison videos from a previous thread. They're low-quality but they give a good idea of what 60 fps adds.

24fps vs. 60fps

Dat frame skip :S
60 fps ruins real life for me.

EDIT: Btw this comparison is unfair, Bluerei shall be better.

 

[oatmeal]

That's not the problem. It's playing it back at 48fps thats the problem.

Yeah, I quoted that and posted as i was still on teh second or so page. I hadn't gotten that far

(EDIT)

BTW, X or M?

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Dat frame skip :S
60 fps ruins real life for me.

EDIT: Btw this comparison is unfair, Bluerei shall be better.

MUWAHAHAHAHA. Almost done uploading.

 

[Juice]

Meh. Basically we all grew up associating "cinematic" with lower image fidelity. We'll get over it.

Or we'll complain a lot and we won't see it again for a long time.

 

[Raistlin]

I don't even know how to go about that right now. I was gonna ask about it, but then I decided it's probably best to wait closer to the film because theaters may wait upgrade later this year. I read software updates and such can be used for certain things.

I find any sites that give listings I'll post it.

I know there's an IMAX site out there where you find what are the 'real' IMAX instead of lieMAX. Hopefully I'll find something similar for 4K theaters.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Ok,
BLUEREI'S RETARDED RED FPS TEST - 24 & 48 FPS

Two files in the zip folder: rocks24.mov and rocks48.mov.

•First half of each clip is ungraded, due to reports of how the clip was shown to the audience ungraded.
•Second half is graded in Redcine-x to give an example of a more cinematic look and color.

rocks48:
•48FPS
•1/270 shutter speed
•2.40:1 Aspect
•2500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)


rocks24:
•24FPS
•1/48 shutter speed (180 degree)
•2.40:1 Aspect
•500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)

Zip size is 477mb.


//////////////// DOWNLOAD: http://ge.tt/6Esr9oG/v/0?c ////////////////


If someone wants to rehost it to someplace better, please do and share out the link, thanks!

 

[C.Dark.DN]

thought you said two 400-600mb files?

awesome, thanks btw

 

[Grakl]

Thanks. Let's do this.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

thought you said two 400-600mb files?

I said that while I was exporting the second vid, didn't think it would be much much smaller.

 

[jett]

Ok,
BLUEREI'S RETARDED RED FPS TEST - 24 & 48 FPS

Two files in the zip folder: rocks24.mov and rocks48.mov.

•First half of each clip is ungraded, due to reports of how the clip was shown to the audience ungraded.
•Second half is graded in Redcine-x to give an example of a more cinematic look and color.

rocks48:
•48FPS
•1/270 shutter speed
•2.40:1 Aspect
•2500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)


rocks24:
•24FPS
•1/48 shutter speed (180 degree)
•2.40:1 Aspect
•500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)

Zip size is 477mb.


//////////////// DOWNLOAD: http://ge.tt/6Esr9oG/v/0?c ////////////////


If someone wants to rehost it to someplace better, please do and share out the link, thanks!

Pretty awesome, thanks a lot. I do hope someone rehosts to a faster website.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Pretty awesome, thanks a lot. I do hope someone rehosts to a faster website.

18 people downloading it at the same time might have something to do with it.

 

[abstract alien]

Looking past their opinions, this sounds like what I want from my movie watching experience. Hate 24fpd so this is so welcome.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

It's not that bad. Might be jarring at first, but keep watching that rocks48.mov clip for a few more times and you kinda get used to it.

 

[Marty Chinn]

wut

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand? Something updating at 60 unique frames has twice the motion information as something updating at 30 unique frames. I'm not talking about the display device, but the content.

24/30p - The Twilight Zone, Seinfeld, 24, Super Mario World
60i - Some episodes of The Twilight Zone, soap operas, your local news, sports on NBC, Super Mario Bros, Tekken
60p - Sports on ABC, Gran Turismo 5

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Damn, I want to get to a pc to dl those clips.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

38 downloads now. My speed has been locked around 500 KB/sec the whole time.

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

48fps example?

http://vimeo.com/37953128

Does look rather smooth compared to movie.

That's scary, I thought there was a black cat in my room for for awhile.

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

48fps example?

http://vimeo.com/37953128

Does look rather smooth compared to movie.

That's scary, I thought there was a black cat in my room for for awhile.

You're not actually seeing 48fps on that clip because vimeo only encodes 24p at most in HD and 30 in SD. Guy probably uploaded it in 48fps, but what you're watching is 24fps.

 

[Raistlin]

What are you talking about, of course they're directly comparable, computer games are mimicing what a real camera does. Granted the motion blur is not perfect, but that's because it only has limited resources. Are you going to tell me Pixar movies aren't really 24FPS? Computer games are just primitive versions of the same techniques.

CGI isn't a game. I believe what he's saying is that how a game looks at 60fps is not necessarily representative of how a film would be. Granted both can use all sorts of 'effects' to give different looks, but the point is a game as a simulation isn't really even close to mimicking what can be done via optics, shutter manipulation, post-processing, etc. The tech isn't there, so one can't really look at a 30fps vs 60fps game to get a truly accurate expectation of how film will look. Obviously there are some similarities though.

It is pretty simple indeed.

Why is it better? We don't see in frames. We are prepared to a boatload of information processing. Lower frame rates are just 'fooling' us.

Of course, there is a point where it would be perceptually insignificant the amount of unique frames compared to the cost and work to achieve it.
If they (Cameron) think 60 frames is cost worthy compared to 30 on digital, might as well do it. Frame wise only, there is no advantage in animation in lesser frames.
All this talk about exposure and shutter angle and motion blur are technical choices that other than 'mechanical sync' aren't deterrents to quality (again ).

It's 'better' in that it can more accurately mimic how we perceive reality.

But that's not always the goal when creating a movie.

Yes they can make it look exactly like a 24p film. you can cut the frames in half and lower the shutter speed. They made sure that it was an option they could fall back on.

How do you lower the shutter speed after it's already been shot?

They can do some post work to get it closer to traditional film, but that's a different story. That said they are shooting it with a fairly wide open shutter anyway, so I suspect a 24p print really won't look that different from traditional film anyway.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand? Something updating at 60 unique frames has twice the motion information as something updating at 30 unique frames. I'm not talking about the display device, but the content.

24/30p - The Twilight Zone, Seinfeld, 24, Super Mario World
60i - Some episodes of The Twilight Zone, soap operas, your local news, sports on NBC, Super Mario Bros, Tekken
60p - Sports on ABC, Gran Turismo 5

The post I was responding to seemed to be confusing refresh and framerate, etc.

What are you trying to get at exactly?

 

[Digishine]

only getting about 1400kB/sec

 

[Grakl]

The 48fps example video was much better. Can definitely tell a difference. Let's go revolution!

Mix up those rocks!

 

[nomis]

only getting about 1400kB/sec

 

[C.Dark.DN]

My desktop is a POS, the 48 fps lags ><
I'll put it on a usb and go to the notebook.

 

[Loxley]

Ok,
BLUEREI'S RETARDED RED FPS TEST - 24 & 48 FPS

Two files in the zip folder: rocks24.mov and rocks48.mov.

•First half of each clip is ungraded, due to reports of how the clip was shown to the audience ungraded.
•Second half is graded in Redcine-x to give an example of a more cinematic look and color.

rocks48:
•48FPS
•1/270 shutter speed
•2.40:1 Aspect
•2500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)


rocks24:
•24FPS
•1/48 shutter speed (180 degree)
•2.40:1 Aspect
•500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)

Zip size is 477mb.


//////////////// DOWNLOAD: http://ge.tt/6Esr9oG/v/0?c ////////////////


If someone wants to rehost it to someplace better, please do and share out the link, thanks!

Downloading now. Thanks for doing this man, should possibly lead to some slightly more informed discussions.

 

[Raistlin]

Ok,
BLUEREI'S RETARDED RED FPS TEST - 24 & 48 FPS

Two files in the zip folder: rocks24.mov and rocks48.mov.

•First half of each clip is ungraded, due to reports of how the clip was shown to the audience ungraded.
•Second half is graded in Redcine-x to give an example of a more cinematic look and color.

rocks48:
•48FPS
•1/270 shutter speed
•2.40:1 Aspect
•2500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)


rocks24:
•24FPS
•1/48 shutter speed (180 degree)
•2.40:1 Aspect
•500 ISO
•White balance @ 5000k
•REDCODE 12:1 (default)

Zip size is 477mb.


//////////////// DOWNLOAD: http://ge.tt/6Esr9oG/v/0?c ////////////////


If someone wants to rehost it to someplace better, please do and share out the link, thanks!

Thanks man! d/ling now.

 

[Marty Chinn]

The post I was responding to seemed to be confusing refresh and framerate, etc.

What are you trying to get at exactly?

We were talking about the Twilight Zone episodes that run at 60 hz/fps, whatever you want to call it. Techinically it was 30 fps on TV, but 30 interlaced frames so it was really 60i in the content information.

 

[Fafalada]

Game motion blur is not at all dictated by the frame rate.

Most game implementations of motion-blur are velocity based(pixel speed in screen-space), so they are very much dictated by frame-rate.
That doesn't make them physically "correct" or anything - but realtime is all about approximations.

 

[nomis]

I literally LOL'd

 

[Raistlin]

We were talking about the Twilight Zone episodes that run at 60 hz/fps, whatever you want to call it. Techinically it was 30 fps on TV, but 30 interlaced frames so it was really 60i in the content information.

I may be wrong, but I am under the impression they were shot at 30fps. They however were broadcast at 60i, and displayed that way since people were using CRT's then.


30fps video broadcast at 60i to a CRT is going to appear to be 30fps. Granted there are some subtle interlacing artifacts, but it's still going to look like 30fps content.

Similarly, 30fps video broadcast at 60i to a progressive display is going to look exactly like the original 30fps video. Well barring your de-interlacer being garbage.