An imperfectly exceptional feat: Shadows in The Last of Us
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So basically, imperfect shadow map allows for convincing shadows with significant performance savings?
TLOU looks phenomenal and i really hope this level of lighting would be standard for next gen games.
Clearly from the GIF posted they have the capability to do this indirect shadowing...and yet in that video the shadows are way too strong and uniform. Could be an artistic issue, yet again.
Yep, their Crysis 3 tech showcase was impressive as hell.
I think I will have to take back what I said about what is next-gen and what isn't.
Crytek 3 on PC really looks (from what we have seen) like a next-gen game.
I wonder what kind of PC will be able to max it out. In any case this is the game that warrants a new GPU purchase.
I'm not sure about performance savings but it does a more convincing job than SSAO/HBAO ever will.
That Crysis 2 gif seems to only showcase its effects when you're setting up the lighting for a level but in real-time it relies heavily on typical AO for diffused shadows under indirect lighting conditions
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
don't know how much it would affect it, but that video is pre dx11 patch, and (lol) probably console version now that i look at it..
I will be so happy if next gen of consoles look like Crysis 3 maxed on PC but I somehow doubt it.
Dictator93
Member
Well time to write a lot of stuff.
That .gif is something a modder did in the editor. The normal level area does not look like that. In fact, doing the entire game to look like that would run horribly and would take forever to finish production on. In the case of naughty dog they are mostlikely doing something very very similar. In fact, it is so similar to other techniques that have been done before that my mind is boggled slightly. They just did it intelligently and correctly.
In the crysis 2 .gif it is a modded scene from a level in C2 where the author placed lots and lots of low resolution shadow casting lights where the ground met the light hitting it from the outside. As a result, it looks like perfect indirect shadowing. This is a brute force and completely undynamic way to achieve the desidred look. All artist controlled, not engine fanciness.
The way the last of us appears to be doing it is a way games have been doing lighting forever. Combining static baked lighting (the sunlight and AO on most world gemoetry) combined with dynamic shadows for characters. The whole deal though is, most games look terrible when they do this because the shadows from dynamic objects are too different from the static ones baked into geometry and texture: so different that they do not convince the player on average that he is seeing actual realistic lighting). To see what I mean, check out the older Halo games and how the player still casts a sharp shadow whilst standing in the baked sunlight shadow outside (gears games did this too till recently).
The last of us is doing it better because instead of some harsh and sharp drop shadow eminiating from the character they have the shadow drawn from the perspective of where light is bouncing from (probably manually placed by an artist, or they could intelligentely have the engine telling it where to render from based upon prebaked AO/sunlight map). They then just render that same extremely low resoultion shadow in multiple strength values (read passses) over itself. Fakes the variable penumbra quite well actually. I like the way it looks.
Basically, like most naughty dog gfx showcases it is extremely polished looking and works great for the way their gameplay dictates the graphical presentation. BUt this would not work in a more dynamic game world and IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT some dynamic end all solution to indrect shaadowing. It is niche and artist driven, not engine driven (barely can be called dynamic).
For something like that, check out later iterations of GI and AO in Cryengine or the upcoming UE4 (which looks to be the most comprehensive solution so far, although it has performance considerations according to engine documentation).
XtremeXpider
Member
Ingame shadows are not as great as cutscenes, true.
i inferred that from the youtube link you posted earlier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdp3rfyFF14
'We demonstrate that imperfect shadow maps are a valid approximation to visibility, which makes the simulation of global illumination an order of magnitude faster than using accurate visibility.'
You are in for a treat I think. I don't know why some people are so negative regarding next-gen consoles.
You know what ? I genuinely expect the Orbis/Durango (or whatever they will be called) to greatly surpass everything we've seen.
I'm dead serious, to me Crysis 3 or Watch Dogs are "early" next-gen titles so you can bet your ass that when the next-gen consoles will start to flex their muscles a game like Crysis 3 will be history.
Damn. Looks awesome! Also as a side I am yet to see blending animations on any console game and most pc games look as good as it does in TLOU. Maybe AC3 comes close but that's about it really..
Man if that is true next gen cant come soon enough! The wait for next E3 is so painful right now.
Well, not knowing anything about the subject of programming, I'm going to say AI, animation "subroutines" (if Star Trek has taught me anything, and it has), pushing for more NPCs (especially in open worlds), and, of course, boob physics.
Edit: Oh, and the other, more cold-hearted and callous answer; maybe cutting programmers working on awesome lighting is a good way to cut costs. Especially in a world of growing social and mobile games.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
There are many things that Cryengine does that no one else has really bothered much in trying to implement because they are small stuff, and hard to make unless you have the engine already doing similar things, and sometimes this may even go unnoticed (water caustics come to mind). But there are also many things that other games do (like that glass breaking thing from Resistance, or fur from Rare Games) that are too specific even for cryengine. So next gen, I expect to see lots of stuff that no one has done before, even if they only get to appear in one game, or in just one level of that game.
XtremeXpider
Member
I'm really waiting for UE4 games:
Really impressive.
Really impressive.
It is for everyone. This will be the greatest E3 of all time.
With regards to animations AC 3 is the most impressive imo. TLOU does not amaze me nearly as much.
There should be a slight shadow at the base of the gold and silver statues, I think it looks like they're just floating on the stone surface, but the reflections are kinda cool.
I'm really waiting for UE4 games:
Really impressive.
I'm wating for the time when we can generate entirely voxel worlds and use that cone tracing to do everything, including soft shadows and antialiasing.
currently they use a relatively low resolution voxel structure and then cast cones for 1/3rd of the rendering resolution which leads to some flatness and lack of information in the generation of the GI. They should really couple it with a finer detail occlusion algorithm such as SSAO for a better effect. I'm guessing as the engine runs on they might be able to scale up the resolution and the voxel resolution
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
It's probably true, but that's not going to happen at the start of the next generation. It's going to happen several years in so you have some more waiting ahead of you.
Canis lupus
Member
Impressive, what can ND do more??
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Only hesitation I have with TLOU
Replay-ability
It will be a tech marvel for sure and Sony to show off, but if the game is just Uncharted Zombie-Mushroom Edition, it will really sour me on ND
Bring their guns loaded on graphics, everything under the sun tech wise, yet somehow they falter on basic storyline issues, and it deters from the goodness as an overall presentation
Replay-ability
It will be a tech marvel for sure and Sony to show off, but if the game is just Uncharted Zombie-Mushroom Edition, it will really sour me on ND
Bring their guns loaded on graphics, everything under the sun tech wise, yet somehow they falter on basic storyline issues, and it deters from the goodness as an overall presentation
Regarding OP and The Last of US, i think its really nice feature, but i dont see that as an impressive feat. Why?
Because it only affects characters and we know that amount of characters is really limited in this game, also those indirect shadows are really low res. Its really nice hack and technology [like theirs volumetric lighting shafts from Uncharted 3], but its not that resource intensive as some people thinks and cant be implemented everywhere. I think that i was more impressed by LBP 2 lighting presentation than by this.
What i love lately about new technologies and next gen engines like CE 3 or UE 4 or even that one from Far Cry 3, that they are trying to make global, real time features, not hacks that will be great in one game, but unacceptable in others.
Because it only affects characters and we know that amount of characters is really limited in this game, also those indirect shadows are really low res. Its really nice hack and technology [like theirs volumetric lighting shafts from Uncharted 3], but its not that resource intensive as some people thinks and cant be implemented everywhere. I think that i was more impressed by LBP 2 lighting presentation than by this.
What i love lately about new technologies and next gen engines like CE 3 or UE 4 or even that one from Far Cry 3, that they are trying to make global, real time features, not hacks that will be great in one game, but unacceptable in others.
Buckethead
Banned
The lighting in the GTA V trailer was really impressive, too bad it was bullshit.
i inferred that from the youtube link you posted earlier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdp3rfyFF14
'We demonstrate that imperfect shadow maps are a valid approximation to visibility, which makes the simulation of global illumination an order of magnitude faster than using accurate visibility.'
Doh! haha well if it was computationally inexpensive, I'd have expected to see it in more games..
I was specifically talking about indirect shadows; in TLoU direct lighting for the sun is rendered in real-time (sun casts sharp environmental shadows; characters can be partially under shadow and not be entirely darkened). Uncharted games had it so I've no reason to believe they're doing anything different here. But going back to those indirect lighting (i.e. shadows in shadows), how do you if that's how ND implement them? Could it be the same tech shown in the video I posted? Anyway nevermind the actual method behind it, I wish to see other developers choosing the same effect over ambient occlusion, which was never a convincing effect for me because of how it works (reminds me so much of Photoshop's Drop-Shadow layer-effect in how it's always rendered behind the object or part of it.
Low-res because they are diffused. Just like in real-life when you're lit by bounced lighting. In TLoU, shadows are sharp when they're outdoors (just like how it's done in almost every game). The impressive thing that they've done here is how they simulate indirect lighting when the characters are under shadow, or indoors. They've even gone as far as to have the intensity of the shadows actually change based on which part of the model is close to the wall (Ellie's forearm casts a sharper shadow than the rest of the limb or body):
Uncharted uses baked shadows but real time within a radius of the camera. Technique used in Killzone and COD too.
Well yeah, doesn't take away from the fact that they're sharp where they matter (ie, within your immediate vicinity), unlike typical prebaked methods.
Halo 3 had one of the most impressive HDR of this generation. It was also the reason why it ran with 640p
Digital Foundry talked about it in the Halo Reach techanalysis
Doesnt matter how blurred they are, but they are really low res. Get a hand or get head near the wall and compare. And getting darker or lighter shadows depending of distance is not a problem currently.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Beautifully put.
It does matter. When you're standing next to a wall, in a room that's indirectly lit by the sun, chances are your shadow that's cast on that wall isn't gonna be sharp. And I wasn't saying darker or lighter shadows is the problem, heck rendering sharp or soft ones aren't an issue either but in most if not all games you get one or the other, not a combination of both as shown in TLoU. And the perfect lighting condition which allows that combination of shadow casting to take place is usually a room with no direct light source to cast your shadows. Sunlight coming in from the window bounces off walls, ceiling, floors, objects, basically everywhere. So if someone in the room is standing next to a wall, bounced light is occluded or prevented from reaching that part of the wall, creating a diffused shadow (diffused cos light is coming from all angles). The closer that person is to the surface, the darker the shadow gets, which is what ambient occlusion has been trying to simulate in the first place.
And quality isn't a primary problem here because the diffused shadows aren't a pixelated mess and let alone exhibit "jagginess".
Wow! You have found exactly what I was looking for. I didn't even know I was looking at imperfect shadow maps! Huzzah! High five friend!
Ah, yes, the story of diminishing returns. Fact is people do notice the little things. In life, it's the little things that separate the good from the great. Hey, if you don't like it that's fine but don't knock it. It's not like ND's development of tech is a liability for Sony. They have been making the money back. If not for sheer creativity or the will to push the envelope, the tasteless accountants can take solace in that. It's really easy to give advice and be high handed when you don't have to challenge yourself like these programmers do.
This thread is about advancement in tech pertaining to shadowing and I'll not have it derailed by people coming in spouting how "irrelevant" they think it is. For them, there are other threads.
Yep, their Crysis 3 tech showcase was impressive as hell.
Yes, Crytek are doing amazing job. It's just that I didn't see this in Crysis 2 to this degree. Then again, this is their new engine and only the best is to be expected of a company that'll be the 2nd biggest name in middleware distribution aside from UE4.
My god The Last Of Us is looking godly..I can't wait for it.
Gifs aren't the best way to show it off since they have a tendency to make stuff look better... but the game looks great in motion and very close to the screens:
You see the first gif, there is something weird going on the with the shadow cast upon the rifle.
Second shot you can see it doesn't have the imperfect shadow maps of Cryengine or TLoU.
Halo 4 has stupendous new lighting engine but I don't think it has the same rendering features when it comes to shadows.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
What always gets under my skin with stuff like this is 2012 shadow implementations mixed with other tech that hasn't moved since 2005 (anisotropic filtering).
On consoles, it has to do with limited resources. Sometimes, it indeed feels like 2 steps forward and one step back. Hopefully, the next gen of consoles will mitigate these issues significantly. And if you're on PC you don't even have to worry about it.
Haha no prob! I really do believe what they've done is a step beyond typical AO methods, so it definitely deserves some recognition.
mclaren777
Member
The indirect lighting in TLoU is the best I've ever seen.
It's actually the thing I like most about the game.
It's actually the thing I like most about the game.
Chip N Chance
Member
I just watched that PAX play through again for the second time. When ever i see gameplay of The Last Of Us i get a real Manhunt vibe. Anybody els?
Dont try to explain me what AO is for and how in direct shadows are created, i know
The thing is, that ND tech doesnt even need to calculate light bouncing or light intensity, because it can be hacked in simpler way like You have characters that stand near two walls, then You get precomputed shadow maps of those characters and cast them on both walls, then You determine distance and modify shadow maps accordingly. Thats why i'm not that impressed by this tech, because it can be cheated in many ways, cause it only affects few known object in the scene. If they've made it for every or most objects in the scene and objects that are created procedurally then i would be really impressed.
I'm more impressed by CCP achievement with partial GI in Dust 514 and theirs 1080p res scaling
http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2012/CCP/Malan-Dust_514_GI_reflections(Siggraph2012).pptx
And resolution matters, because its precision. Precision is the thing that really differentiate PC tech from console tech and its so obvious once You saw it. Precision of lighting, shadows, shaders and post process effect in engine like CE 3 or FB 2 killed current console tech for me, it just doesnt look as good as before anymore.
To me, the how isn't important. Is it dynamic, is it a hack? It really doesn't matter. The end result is what matters, and TLoU looks to have the best character casted shadows I've ever seen in a game, by a long shot.
I've said this plenty of times: CryEngine 3 may have the best lighting engine out there, but I feel the artists don't use it very well at all. As a result, I feel that the lighting in Dark Souls, of all games, looks better than CryEngine 3.
Dynamic lighting is great and all, but it's unnecessary in the vast majority of games.
More of a sidestep. TLoU doesn't seem to be using dynamic AO at all. All of the AO in the world is prebaked.
I was wondering what was the OP on, but THOSE gifs really show it. No other game does that.
Dont try to explain me what AO is for and how in direct shadows are created, i know
The thing is, that ND tech doesnt even need to calculate light bouncing or light intensity, because it can be hacked in simpler way like You have characters that stand near two walls, then You get precomputed shadow maps of those characters and cast them on both walls, then You determine distance and modify shadow maps accordingly. Thats why i'm not that impressed by this tech, because it can be cheated in many ways, cause it only affects few known object in the scene. If they've made it for every or most objects in the scene and objects that are created procedurally then i would be really impressed.
I'm more impressed by CCP achievement with partial GI in Dust 514 and theirs 1080p res scaling
http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2012/CCP/Malan-Dust_514_GI_reflections(Siggraph2012).pptx
And resolution matters, because its precision. Precision is the thing that really differentiate PC tech from console tech and its so obvious once You saw it. Precision of lighting, shadows, shaders and post process effect in engine like CE 3 or FB 2 killed current console tech for me, it just doesnt look as good as before anymore.
I never said resolution doesn't matter, you're the one misinterpreting my use of the term blurry with pixelated. If the artist's intention is implement indirect shadows, then they have to be blurry (at a reasonable distance between object and surface) I already did differentiate between two different types of lighting: direct and indirect, the latter of which causes diffused shadows, hence the blur (notice how I find the need to lay out the basics because I'm not sure what you're trying to articulate here?). I'm not concerned with issues of quality, which you seem to be focused on. Resolution and precision aside (and again, the diffused shadows in TLoU isn't pixelated, if at all, to be distracting), the effect that Naughty Dog chose here is far more convincing that straight-on ambient occlusion. If it is indeed computationally inexpensive, then all the more reason developers should try and implement them (if its permitted within the scope of their game)
What is it with these exclusive threads? I just had the discussion in the Halo 4 thread where if a game looks good, someone how it's at the detriment to the skill of every other studio out there. It's incredibly stupid and makes it hard to have an open discussion over what could be an interesting topic.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
So your saying you haven't ready one impression or watched one presentation of the game I take it.
This thread is about shadow tech, the guy brings up a completely unrelated element of the game to try and put down any sort of interest or excitement on it. :lol
Nevermind that he is completely wrong.
crazy monkey
Banned
Do people actully look at shadow and ground that much while playing game? Honest answer I watched the video and game looked preety gripping but i did not focus on technical details at all than again I am wii owner with who is completely fine with graphics at any level. I can even play N64 games without problem as long as game is good.
Boss Man
Member
Kinda off topic, but I really think this game is going to be more than Uncharted with a mushroom skin. There are a lot of very distinguishing mechanics, like the real-time crafting system and the scarce bullets that actually kill people when they get shot. It looks like it's going to actually end up feeling more like Demon's Souls than Uncharted with the way each enemy poses a very real threat.
As far as replayability or story elements are concerned, I have no idea.
Some people do. For others, I think most people are seeing these details more than they realize- it's just happening subconsciously and contributing to the overall sense of immersion that you feel.
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