Support NeoGAF

[Messypandas]

It's insane to me that any normal person would advocate arming citizens for fear of crazy gunmen. And I don't mean that those people are insane, I mean the fact that US society is apparently so fucked up and steeped in guns and violence that anyone would even have a reason to come up with such an argument.

The fact that you need a gun in a U.S school to feel safe says everything you need to know about the failed country mentality. You can tackle the problem at its source, but no lol keep implementing these hilarious failsafe methods

 

[Phoenix]

You mean compared to gun free zones which have prevent zero crimes from occurring? lol

You have no way to prove that so your argument is rejected on its technical merit.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I see what you did there. The rest of the quote:

"On the other hand, we find that the statistical evidence that these laws have reduced crime is limited, sporadic, and extraordinarily fragile."

But that is irrelevant to the question of if there is a greater harm and there isn't. That's what matters I've never advocated more guns lead to less crime just that more guns do not lead to more crime.

You have no way to prove that so your argument is rejected on its technical merit.

Lol if that makes you feel better.

One need only look at shootings that have occured at Gun Free Zone to see how worthless they are and how they only protect criminals.

 

[PeteZaTheHutt]

Perhaps you missed the part where the student mentioned he wanted one because he had to leave campus late at night.

Maybe the university could set up a "gun check" type of system whereby students give up their gun upon entering the campus and then they can pick it up later when they leave the campus at the end of the day. The guy who is scared to walk home at night after class can still have his gun when he's walking home.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I see what you did there. The rest of the quote:

"On the other hand, we find that the statistical evidence that these laws have reduced crime is limited, sporadic, and extraordinarily fragile."

lol

 

[enzo_gt]

As opposed to letting shooters have free reign to go on massive murder sprees where your only defense is "sure hope I don't get gunned down".

So to combat insane, suicidal gunmen on campus you... Make it easier for them to premeditate and stay strapped?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Maybe the university could set up a "gun check" type of system whereby students give up their gun upon entering the campus and then they can pick it up later when they leave the campus at the end of the day. The guy who is scared to walk home at night after class can still have his gun when he's walking home.

Like at a courthouse? It's not a horrible comprise.

lol

Did you read my response? you also ducked my comment about police training.

 

[Witchfinder General]

What an odd country.

 

[Kabouter]

It's sad that people apparently feel so unsafe in America that they feel they need guns to protect themselves. I can't imagine living under such constant terror, to be so fearful every time you step outside that you need a firearm. It's a shame the US government is apparently failing at its core task of guaranteeing the safety of its citizens, but I suppose when that's the case, you need to take matters into your own hands.

 

[Ledsen]

But that is irrelevant to the question of if there is a greater harm and there isn't. That's what matters I've never advocated more guns lead to less crime just that more guns do not lead to more crime.

More guns lead to even more guns, which in the end creates a society where people are constantly afraid for their lives and feel the need to carry a gun for their own protection, simply because everyone else is. Unless your opinion is that it's to late for the US at this point, the aim of anyone seeking to stop this spiral of fear and violence should be to reduce the acceptance and adoption of guns outside military, police and hunting.

 

[snap0212]

But that is irrelevant to the question of if there is a greater harm and there isn't. That's what matters I've never advocated more guns lead to less crime just that more guns do not lead to more crime.

Well, I personally am always looking for a real reason to actually do something. If it doesn't factually make the world a safer place then what's the point? When it makes people feel uneasy and there's no improvement in safety then maybe you shouldn't do it for the sake of the other people.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Did you read my response? you also ducked my comment about police training.

I did afterwards. Saying 'welp it may not be better, but it's definitely not worse!' is not something that is reasonable in my mind.

And how much training do police officers get pray tell? Is it more than your average conceal and carry owner? I'd wager so.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

As opposed to letting shooters have free reign to go on massive murder sprees where your only defense is "sure hope I don't get gunned down".

So let's say you have a scenario with one perpetrator and two law-abiding carriers. The nutcase opens fire, and one of the other two draws in self-defense. The remaining person doesn't get a good glimpse at how the altercation started. What's to happen if he draws his gun as well? What if several more people present are also armed?

I'm sorry. I can't imagine any universe in which adding more firearms to the picture results in less damage.

 

[Danne-Danger]

As opposed to letting shooters have free reign to go on massive murder sprees where your only defense is "sure hope I don't get gunned down".

Because that happens everyday and has nothing to do with insane gun laws catering to insane people to begin with.

Guess you want people to carry guns on planes as well?

 

[entremet]

So crazy.

So so crazy. I wonder what this will do enrollment.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Well, I personally am always looking for a real reason to actually do something. If it doesn't factually make the world a safer place then what's the point? When it makes people feel uneasy and there's no improvement in safety then maybe you shouldn't do it for the sake of the other people.

Someones sensibilities being offended is a pretty weak reason to ban something when there is no demonstrably overall harm to society.

I did afterwards. Saying 'welp it may not be better, but it's definitely not worse!' is not something that is reasonable in my mind.

And how much training do police officers get pray tell? Is it more than your average conceal and carry owner? I'd wager so.

You wager wrong then. Most cops practice far far far less often than regular gun owners. At 0-2 feet most NYPD cops can only hit a target less than a third of the the time.

 

[Technosteve]

i'm ok if they have to register with the campus police, have their names in the college newspaper and mandatory gun training.

seems sad most of you gun guys feel this country is like the wild west

 

[GrandHarrier]

So to combat insane, suicidal gunmen on campus you... Make it easier for them to premeditate and stay strapped?

Can't speak for other states, but an "insane suicidal gunman" can't get a concealed permit in Oregon. They can still straight up buy the guns, but there are any number of factors that will dq you. My roommate couldn't get one because years ago he called the police because he was having suicidal thoughts. He isn't anymore but he still can't. But he owns 3+ legally.

 

[PeteZaTheHutt]

But that is irrelevant to the question of if there is a greater harm and there isn't. That's what matters I've never advocated more guns lead to less crime just that more guns do not lead to more crime.


Lol if that makes you feel better.

One need only look at shootings that have occured at Gun Free Zone to see how worthless they are and how they only protect criminals.

Then why are violent gun-related crimes 6 times higher on a per-capita basis in America compared to Canada? Not to mention similar statistics for virtually every other country in the world...

 

[Stet]

Can't speak for other states, but an "insane suicidal gunman" can't get a concealed permit in Oregon. They can still straight up buy the guns, but there are any number of factors that will dq you. My roommate couldn't get one because years ago he called the police because he was having suicidal thoughts. He isn't anymore but he still can't. But he owns 3+ legally.

What a shame. So many suicides could've been prevented if those people weren't allowed to carry their 3+ weapons concealed in a public place.

 

[SteveWinwood]

You wager wrong then. Most cops practice far far far less often than regular gun owners. At 0-2 feet most NYPD cops can only hit a target less than a third of the the time.

Practice and training are not the same thing...

 

[Guevara]

Ugh I don't trust anyone with guns but especially not college kids.

 

[kinoki]

I think guns in general are madness... but this is just a whole new kind of breed of crazy. Who could seriously think it's wise to bring a gun into a class-room? All it takes is one person getting emotional in a debate and it's a nightmare. Who in their right mind can support this?

 

[snap0212]

Someones sensibilities being offended is a pretty weak reason to ban something when there is no demonstrably overall harm to society.

Seems to be enough of a reason to tell people to not walk around naked in public, have a beer in public, smoke cannabis or anything like that.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Can't say I oppose legally responsible adults with a carry permit utilizing their second amendment rights. Regardless of where they are.

Ugh I don't trust anyone with guns but especially not college kids.

So if someone owns a gun they're immediately not trustworthy? That's some amazing bias there...

 

[Enron]

Does anyone think it's a good idea for kids whose minds are still developing to carry guns into college classrooms? I am pro-gun, and I sure as fuck don't.

Can't say I oppose legally responsible adults with a carry permit utilizing their second amendment rights. Regardless of where they are.

Planes? Federal Buildings? etc etc?

 

[Link]

Someones sensibilities being offended is a pretty weak reason to ban something when there is no demonstrably overall harm to society.

Yet you yourself said there's no benefit, either, so why even create the opportunity for shit to go down?

 

[Desmond]

I'm so glad I don't live in America sometimes.

Land of the Free.

 

[GrandHarrier]

So let's say you have a scenario with one perpetrator and two law-abiding carriers. The nutcase opens fire, and one of the other two draws in self-defense. The remaining person doesn't get a good glimpse at how the altercation started. What's to happen if he draws his gun as well? What if several more people present are also armed?

I'm sorry. I can't imagine any universe in which adding more firearms to the picture results in less damage.

In your same scenario where only the perpetrator is armed, all the unarmed people are helplessly gunned down. They can... Try to run? I guess? And maybe hide?

I'm sorry. Too many scenario where one guy goes on to murder dozens+ because no one can stop him seems insane. Everywhere has examples of this. Even the gun free violence free EU (re: Norway killing spree).

 

[entremet]

Does anyone think it's a good idea for kids whose minds are still developing to carry guns into college classrooms? I am pro-gun, and I sure as fuck don't.



Planes? Federal Buildings? etc etc?

Yeah. Same here. I'm pro gun and this is nuts.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Then why are violent gun-related crimes 6 times higher on a per-capita basis in America compared to Canada? Not to mention similar statistics for virtually every other country in the world...

Then why has gun crimes been declining despite loosening gun control laws? I mean this isn't me spouting bullshit check the FBIs uniform crime reports.

 

[Danne-Danger]

i'm ok if they have to register with the campus police, have their names in the college newspaper and mandatory gun training.

Dun step on mah freedum!

 

[SteveWinwood]

Then why has gun crimes been declining despite loosening gun control laws? I mean this isn't me spouting bullshit check the FBIs uniform crime reports.

So its gone from crazy high relative to the rest of the civilized world to only pretty high?

Congrats!

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Yet you yourself said there's no benefit, either, so why even create the opportunity for shit to go down?

Because there is no proveable harm. Laws shouldn't be passed to prohibit acts that do no cause overall harm to society.

So its gone from crazy high relative to the rest of the civilized world to only pretty high?

Congrats!

You going to stop ducking your failures regarding your knowlege on police training?

 

[enzo_gt]

Can't speak for other states, but an "insane suicidal gunman" can't get a concealed permit in Oregon. They can still straight up buy the guns, but there are any number of factors that will dq you. My roommate couldn't get one because years ago he called the police because he was having suicidal thoughts. He isn't anymore but he still can't. But he owns 3+ legally.

Uh... This scares me even more that he's still allowed to have them legally.

The point is people may not be diagnosed or it may just be that one day someone snaps and decides to reveal a side of themselves to the world that could be hazardous causing some stuff to happen.

I'm finding the evidence for this move fairly thin and can't think of a reason myself that this could possibly be beneficial. The handing guns in on campus idea is so stupid. If society really has to come to that, then I think we have failed altogether if that is the compromise required for peace.

 

[trineo_feo]

"Oh shit, that college student with a gun under his shirt is drinking a beer. LET'S CALL THE POLICE, DRINKING A BEER IS SO DANGEROUS!"

lol. Weird laws in America.

 

[snap0212]

Because there is no proveable harm. Laws shouldn't be passed to prohibit acts that do no cause overall harm to society.

Seems to be enough of a reason to tell people to not walk around naked in public, have a beer in public, smoke cannabis or anything like that.

 

[Link]

You wager wrong then. Most cops practice far far far less often than regular gun owners. At 0-2 feet most NYPD cops can only hit a target less than a third of the the time.

I'm sorry, but what is the source on this? Because it sounds like straight bullshit.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Seems to be enough of a reason to tell people to not walk around naked in public, have a beer in public, smoke cannabis or anything like that.

It does.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'm sorry, but what is the source on this? Because it sounds like straight bullshit.

Here is the study page 7-8 and have the hit and distance numbers. The first number was 38% not 32% as I recalled, my mistake on that.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

1994-2000
NYPD Hit Ratios By Distance
Gunfights, Other Shootings vs. Perpetrator, and Against Dogs
DISTANCE (Yards)
0-2
3-7
8-15
16-25
25+
Unknown
HIT RATIO
38%
17%
9%
8%
4%
2%

 

[SteveWinwood]

You going to stop ducking your failures regarding your knowlege on police training?

I said training and practice are very different things! And I specifically asked about training. Do conceal and carry people have more training? I can practice some things until the cows come home and not get better.

Edit: And above me, do you have rates of the average carrier to prove your point that those are worse than the average carrier?

 

[snap0212]

It does.

So then do you think it's wrong that people are not allowed to marry their siblings?

 

[PeteZaTheHutt]

Then why has gun crimes been declining despite loosening gun control laws? I mean this isn't me spouting bullshit check the FBIs uniform crime reports.

I repeat... 6 times higher. Why?

 

[GrandHarrier]

Uh... This scares me even more that he's still allowed to have them legally.

The point is people may not be diagnosed or it may just be that one day someone snaps and decides to reveal a side of themselves to the world that could be hazardous causing some stuff to happen.

I'm finding the evidence for this move fairly thin and can't think of a reason myself that this could possibly be beneficial. The handing guns in on campus idea is so stupid. If society really has to come to that, then I think we have failed altogether if that is the compromise required for peace.

Not going to argue with you about who should be allowed to have guns. My point was even mentally unbalanced people can get guns but getting a concealed (yhe argument at hand) is considerably harder. You are in more danger of someone illegally sneaking it on than you are from a legal permit holder suddenly snapping in class.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I said training and practice are very different things! And I specifically asked about training. Do conceal and carry people have more training? I can practice some things until the cows come home and not get better.

Yet police still get to carry.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So then do you think it's wrong that people are not allowed to marry their siblings?

Demonstrable harm in the offspring.

 

[Link]

Here is the study page 7-8 and have the hit and distance numbers. The first number was 38% not 32% as I recalled, my mistake on that.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

1994-2000
NYPD Hit Ratios By Distance
Gunfights, Other Shootings vs. Perpetrator, and Against Dogs
DISTANCE (Yards)
0-2
3-7
8-15
16-25
25+
Unknown
HIT RATIO
38%
17%
9%
8%
4%
2%

That's for actual situations and gunfights, not range training, but nice try.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Yet police still get to carry.

Read my edit.

 

[snap0212]

Demonstrable harm in the offspring.

Babies come from unprotected sex, not marriage. It could also be a gay marriage.

 

[Recon]

It's sad that people apparently feel so unsafe in America that they feel they need guns to protect themselves. I can't imagine living under such constant terror, to be so fearful every time you step outside that you need a firearm. It's a shame the US government is apparently failing at its core task of guaranteeing the safety of its citizens, but I suppose when that's the case, you need to take matters into your own hands.

I have never felt unsafe to the point I wished I had a gun. I also dont go places that would make me feel unsafe. But even when I have hung out in some shady places in Detroit, I never felt like I needed a gun. If someone is going to come shoot me, I doubt me having a gun will stop them.