University Is Uneasy as Court Ruling Allows Guns on Campus

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snap0212 said:
When Manos: The Hans of Fate says that “Someones sensibilities being offended is a pretty weak reason to ban something when there is no demonstrably overall harm to society” then he should have the same view about marriage between siblings.

If he thinks that there needs to be “demonstrably overall harm to society” in order to ban something or prohibit people from doing something then his “rule for banning things” should be applied to all topics and not just the one topic he's in favor of. He knew exactly what I was trying to prove and changed the subject every single time to avoid actually answering my question.

I chose marriage between siblings because it's a topic that most people don't seem to be in favor of even though there's no provable harm done to anyone. I deliberately left out the risks for the well-being of biological child when I mentioned that I can also change the question to gay siblings. I mentioned reasons for marriage (adopting a child, less taxes) to make sure he knows that I'm not talking about having biological children.

If you go back to the first page (100 post per page) then you'll find the start of the whole discussion where I pointed out that the research he quoted [“"We conclude that Lott and Mustard have made an important scholarly contribution in establishing that these laws have not led to the massive bloodbath of death and injury that some of their opponents feared.”] also said that "On the other hand, we find that the statistical evidence that these laws have reduced crime is limited, sporadic, and extraordinarily fragile.". I replied: “If it doesn't factually make the world a safer place then what's the point? When it makes people feel uneasy and there's no improvement in safety then maybe you shouldn't do it for the sake of the other people.”

Then the whole thing about you shouldn't ban things because someone's “sensibilities [are] being offended”.
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And what about your complete sidestepping of if crime does not go up because of guns? Should we ban other things that don't increase crime also? You're making logical jumps too but you're been against responding to what he says and instead think you got him in some logical lock that will completely shatter his view on not banning guns.


Kabouter said:
I figure if you feel you require a gun everywhere you go, including the university campus, you're perhaps not constantly, but certainly frequently very afraid that something might happen to you, otherwise no one would feel such an urgent need to carry a gun that they would seek legal action to obtain the right. Like I said, if things where you live are that unsafe because the state has completely failed in one of its primary tasks, then I absolutely support people who want to carry a gun. It only makes sense.
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Ok, let's agree for a second that every person who carries a gun is deathly afraid of being killed, what percentage of the population is this? But ya, the state has completely failed right? I'm not sure how you can't see you're completely overreaching in your statements.
 
It's not something that I would do, but I don't see classroom debates ending in Mexican standoffs either. The law about allowing guns in bars was completely stupid, however. Guns and alcohol do not mix.
 
SapientWolf said:
It's not something that I would do, but I don't see classroom debates ending in Mexican standoffs either. The law about allowing guns in bars was completely stupid, however. Guns and alcohol do not mix.
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It's a good thing there's never any alcohol on college campuses.
 
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
And what about your complete sidestepping of if crime does not go up because of guns?
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I never talked about crime rates, I've been talking about the fact that it causes people to feel unsafe.

Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
Should we ban other things that don't increase crime also?
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We already are. Every country does that. Laws are not always based on whether something is factually good or bad in the grand scheme of things. I've mentioned this on the first page (smoking weed, for example). My point on the first page was that, if there's no decrease or increase in crime either way, why not leave the guns at home to make those who are afraid of them feel better?

He could have said that gun-owners might feel uneasy about not having a gun on them and that'd be a valid argument to me. Would maybe even lead to an interesting discussion in another direction where we figure out why gun-owners feel safe with a weapon (when it doesn't help in terms of safety) and why people who don't own a gun feel uneasy around them (even though it doesn't mean that it's more unsafe for them).

Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
You're making logical jumps too but you're been against responding to what he says and instead think you got him in some logical lock that will completely shatter his view on not banning guns.
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I must have missed the part where he asked me a question (aside from the one he didn't even answer himself) that I didn't answer. He only replied to questions I didn't ask even after I specifically created questions that are 100% clear.

My intention never was to shatter his view on guns or anything. I was pointing out that his argument was a weak one. He can be in favor of whatever he wants, I don't mind that. I mind it when he uses a weak argument when it works in his favor but ignores the same argument when used on something he doesn't like.
 
snap0212 said:
He could have said that gun-owners might feel uneasy about not having a gun on them and that'd be a valid argument to me. Would maybe even lead to an interesting discussion in another direction where we figure out why gun-owners feel safe with a weapon (when it doesn't help in terms of safety) and why people who don't own a gun feel uneasy around them (even though it doesn't mean that it's more unsafe for them).
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I figured that was a given, but yeah that's the main reason.
 
snap0212 said:
I never talked about crime rates, I've been talking about the fact that it causes people to feel unsafe.

We already are. Every country does that. Laws are not always based on whether something is factually good or bad in the grand scheme of things. I've mentioned this on the first page (smoking weed, for example). My point on the first page was that, if there's no decrease or increase in crime either way, why not leave the guns at home to make those who are afraid of them feel better?

He could have said that gun-owners might feel uneasy about not having a gun on them and that'd be a valid argument to me. Would maybe even lead to an interesting discussion in another direction where we figure out why gun-owners feel safe with a weapon (when it doesn't help in terms of safety) and why people who don't own a gun feel uneasy around them (even though it doesn't mean that it's more unsafe for them).

I must have missed the part where he asked me a question (aside from the one he didn't even answer himself) that I didn't answer. He only replied to questions I didn't ask even after I specifically created questions that are 100% clear.

My intention never was to shatter his view on guns or anything. I was pointing out that his argument was a weak one. He can be in favor of whatever he wants, I don't mind that. I mind it when he uses a weak argument when it works in his favor but ignores the same argument when used on something he doesn't like.
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And what about all the things we don't ban that don't increase crime? I know it's more beneficial for you to keep having tunnelvision and ignoring everything else but you're refusing to respond to a question I posed to you just like you were claiming Manos was doing.

Edit: There's plenty examples either way, and you can run away with crazy examples with it makes them feel unsafe. What if a person feels unsafe that a black person is in their store? Should we ban black people? I mean they could just stay out rather than make people feel uncomfortable. You can make crazy examples for both sides that just become more and more nonsensical as they keep stretching further and further from the topic being discussed.
 
I wonder what would happen if there's a shooting on the campus. Like how would you distinct the guy who is out to murder people from the guys who want to take that person down?
 
Kinyou said:
I wonder what would happen if there's a shooting on the campus. Like how would you distinct the guy who is out to murder people from the guys who want to take that person down?
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You think it's that hard to tell who's trying to shoot multiple people? I can't see this happening.
 
Kinyou said:
I wonder what would happen if there's a shooting on the campus. Like how would you distinct the guy who is out to murder people from the guys who want to take that person down?
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I was thinking the same thing.

Also, I would not want to take a class where one of my classmates was armed. I know I'm generalizing but the people that I know who have guns are all very ignorant people (their ignorance trends toward racism) who are quick to anger.


Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
You think it's that hard to tell who's trying to shoot multiple people? I can't see this happening.
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Hypothetical: Police arrive at the scene of a shooting looking for an armed suspect who has killed but they do not know what the killer looks like. The officers spot someone that is armed and they have a clear shot at the person.

In that situation, yeah...it would be hard as hell to tell until you wait for the person to raise their weapon at another person, risking the other persons life in the process.

No need to make an argument out of a common sense question.
 
America really scares me sometimes. Why the fuck do students need to carry guns on campus?!?

If they absolutely need something for personal protection that self defense classes can't solve, then carry some pepper spray, or in the more extreme cases a tazer. A fucking gun?! i don't even,...
 
Kinyou said:
So when I run through the hallway and come across a guy with a gun I should wait and see if he tries to shoot me?
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What? How do you think it happens? People just sneak up and headshot them? How do you think it's normally handled without guns?


EternalDarko said:
America really scares me sometimes. Why the fuck do students need to carry guns on campus?!?

If they absolutely need something for personal protection that self defense classes can't solve, then carry some pepper spray, or in the more extreme cases a tazer. A fucking gun?! i don't even,...
Click to expand...

Self defense classes and pepper spray for school shootings? WAT.
 
EternalDarko said:
America really scares me sometimes. Why the fuck do students need to carry guns on campus?!?

If they absolutely need something for personal protection that self defense classes can't solve, then carry some pepper spray, or in the more extreme cases a tazer. A fucking gun?! i don't even,...
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You know that tazers can kill someone.
 
If only all the cinema patrons at Aurora had guns as well. A wild west shootout in the dark would have ended the alteration with minimum casualties
 
Oh boy, yet another Manos gun thread

Jimmy_bieber_Popcorn_cu-thumb-350x197-14878.gif
 
Are guns allowed in elementary or high school as well due to this ruling? Or is it restricted to adults? If so, can teachers and 18yo high school students carry guns in high school?
 
Zzoram said:
Are guns allowed in elementary or high school as well due to this ruling? Or is it restricted to adults? If so, can teachers and 18yo high school students carry guns in high school?
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Yes. The new season of Arthur's going to be off the chain. Buster busts a cap in someones ass
 
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
What? How do you think it happens? People just sneak up and headshot them? How do you think it's normally handled without guns?
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What do you mean? When there's a shooting, people will try to get away. And when there's a shooting, people with a concealed guns will obviously pull out their guns.

So how do I as a student know that the guy running down the hallway is the killer or someone who is allowed to carry a gun?
 
Zzoram said:
Are guns allowed in elementary or high school as well due to this ruling? Or is it restricted to adults? If so, can teachers and 18yo high school students carry guns in high school?
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Requirements:
1. Colorado resident
2. Age 21 or older
3. Not precluded by state or federal law from owning or possessing a firearm (e.g. felony conviction, mentally incompetent)
4. Does not chronically or habitually abuse alcohol
5. Is not an unlawful user of or addicted to controlled substances
6. Is not the subject of a civil or criminal restraining order
7. Complete background check, including fingerprint verification by FBI/CBI
8. Demonstrates competence with a handgun by one of the following means:
a. evidence of experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competitions or current military service
b. certified firearms instructor
c. honorable discharge from the Armed Forces within past three yearss
d. proof of pistol qualification in Armed Forces within past ten years, if discharged
e. retired law enforcement with pistol qualification within past ten years
f. proof of completion of a handgun training class within the past ten years
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Places off-limits when carrying:
1. Any place prohibited by federal law (e.g. federal offices or courthouse)
2. Any property of public school grades kindergarten through 12, unless the firearm remains inside a container in a locked vehicle
3. Any public building that prohibits ALL weapons which posts guards and permanent metal detectors at all entrances and requires all entrants to surrender handguns to security personnel before entry
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Herein is the basis.
 
Kinyou said:
What do you mean? When there's a shooting, people will try to get away. And when there's a shooting, people with a concealed guns will obviously pull out their guns.

So how do I as a student know that the guy running down the hallway is the killer or someone who is allowed to carry a gun?
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What are you talking about? Where are you? Are you in a classroom? Also running down the hall? I'm not sure how you can't tell contextually who is shooting everyone. And why would you be passing the shooter if the events didn't happen nearby?
 
I wish that, just for one day, Manos could experience what it's like to be born, raised and living in a country with no gun laws. Experience the actual freedom of never having to worry about it.

This concept alone of having to carry a gun to school to feel safe is so goddamn sad it makes me want to lie down.
It's boggling my mind that most Americans like Manos don't even realize how messed up this is.
 
Zzoram said:
So a private elementary school teacher can carry guns?
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Did you seriously not even read his bolded post that explains everything to you?


Gattsu25 said:
The police don't always identify themselves before they pull the trigger. You knew that, but are making the argument anyway.
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And I'm sure there's no context or anything to help them tell or will be more careful when people can concealed carry now. They'll just be blasting fools instead right? You guys seem to have a warped view of how things happen. If you're that worried though, don't carry the gun or pull the gun on campus.
 
Kinyou said:
What do you mean? When there's a shooting, people will try to get away. And when there's a shooting, people with a concealed guns will obviously pull out their guns.

So how do I as a student know that the guy running down the hallway is the killer or someone who is allowed to carry a gun?
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Dude, you're obviously supposed to think rationally during a school shooting. Of course there will be mass panic, screaming and, perhaps now, multiple people with guns but surely you can stop to contextualise the situation and realise who is a threat? Right?
 
Messypandas said:
Dude, you're obviously supposed to think rationally during a school shooting. Of course there will be mass panic, screaming and, perhaps now, multiple people with guns but surely you can stop to contextualise the situation and realise who is a threat? Right?
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I sure hope this is a joke post because no one has said any of this. You're just making up stuff.
 
Hoo-doo said:
I wish that, just for one day, Manos could experience what it's like to be born, raised and living in a country with no gun laws. Experience the actual freedom of never having to worry about it.

This concept alone of having to carry a gun to school to feel safe is so goddamn sad it makes me want to lie down.
It's boggling my mind that most Americans like Manos don't even realize how messed up this is.
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It boggles my mind too. I can't imagine living in fear to the extent where I would want to take a firearm to a uni lecture. It must be horrible. Sells a lot of guns and ammunition though.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Here is the study page 7-8 and have the hit and distance numbers. The first number was 38% not 32% as I recalled, my mistake on that.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

1994-2000
NYPD Hit Ratios By Distance
Gunfights, Other Shootings vs. Perpetrator, and Against Dogs
DISTANCE (Yards)
0-2
3-7
8-15
16-25
25+
Unknown
HIT RATIO
38%
17%
9%
8%
4%
2%
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Is this supposed to support the idea of concealed carry? Because this states that even at 2 feet our concealed carry savior has a 62% or greater of putting a bullet somewhere other than into an assailant.
 
Haha, fuck you girl for trying to be safe when coming back from the photography studio. Rape is a myth.

This ruling is such a non-problem for the school. I'm more worried about The Hill because that's where everyone goes and gets wasted. People who live off campus and go to The Hill already have the option of bringing a gun. Adding students from campus who could possibly bring a gun is just more numbers.

But it's not like there are shootings there, anyways.

Over reactive internet people who don't live in Boulder lumping it in with the rest of America. lmao


surly said:
It boggles my mind too. I can't imagine living in fear to the extent where I would want to take a firearm to a uni lecture. It must be horrible. Sells a lot of guns and ammunition though.
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because students don't go to the library at night or have jobs or things that put them on school property at ~unsafe~ hours
 
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
And what about all the things we don't ban that don't increase crime? I know it's more beneficial for you to keep having tunnelvision and ignoring everything else but you're refusing to respond to a question I posed to you just like you were claiming Manos was doing.
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Sorry for the late reply (dinner).

I'm not sure what you're asking here. What things do you mean? What would be the reason for the ban? Would the ban affect people in a negative way? Do you want to ban things all together or just in certain areas?

I'd be all for a ban of “things only adults can have” in certain areas. I'd ban hard alcohol near kindergartens and schools as well as cigarettes, for example. Sure, I am allowed to sit in front of the local kindergarten while drinking Tequila but I'm sure others wouldn't find that good at all. Or what things do you mean? :)
 
surly said:
It boggles my mind too. I can't imagine living in fear to the extent where I would want to take a firearm to a uni lecture. It must be horrible. Sells a lot of guns and ammunition though.
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I live in Georgia, and such a thought never even crosses my mind when attending lectures. I go to one of the (supposedly) safest campuses in the state, but still there is a huge campaign going on within the student body to allow concealed weapons on campus. The day safety crosses my mind when attending a lecture will be the day my University concedes to their demands. Hopefully that day never occurs.
 
Kabouter said:
It's sad that people apparently feel so unsafe in America that they feel they need guns to protect themselves. I can't imagine living under such constant terror, to be so fearful every time you step outside that you need a firearm. It's a shame the US government is apparently failing at its core task of guaranteeing the safety of its citizens, but I suppose when that's the case, you need to take matters into your own hands.
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LOL

Guess locking your doors when you leave the house is because you're in absolute terror that you're going to be robbed, too.

What kind of failed state has crime so high that people can't leave their houses with their doors and windows open for a few hours?
 
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
What are you talking about? Where are you? Are you in a classroom? Also running down the hall? I'm not sure how you can't tell contextually who is shooting everyone. And why would you be passing the shooter if the events didn't happen nearby?
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I'd be running down the hallway as well, trying to get out. How would I know if that guy is the killer or not? He could be straying through the hallways looking for additional victims or it could be some guy with a concealed gun looking for the killer. Overall would additional people running around with guns certainly add to the confusion and panic.

The shooter and the number of shooters is often unknown for a long time. He doesn't announce himself over speakerphone.
 
poppabk said:
Is this supposed to support the idea of concealed carry? Because this states that even at 2 feet our concealed carry savior has a 62% or greater of putting a bullet somewhere other than into an assailant.
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Those are cop rates.

And they do nothing to show that carriers are better as we have no data for them apparently. It could be 5% at 2 yards for carriers for all we know.
 
GrandHarrier said:
My friend tried to get one. Denied for past mental issues. So, yeah. Prove you aren't unbalanced. The "problem" is psychotic that can manage to hide all outward signs of their problems.



As opposed to letting shooters have free reign to go on massive murder sprees where your only defense is "sure hope I don't get gunned down".
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To anyone outside the US this is an insane issue. Guns in college? WTF - I guess living in a society in which school / uni shooting are relatively common place lead to quotes like this. I can't imagine having to think about these types of things on a daily basis.
 
vidcons said:
because students don't go to the library at night or have jobs or things that put them on school property at ~unsafe~ hours
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the fact that there exist hours on campuses so unsafe that carrying a lethal firearm is a recommended caution means you are living in a failed state.
 
Kinyou said:
I'd be running down the hallway as well, trying to get out. How would I know if that guy is the killer or not? He could be straying through the hallways looking for additional victims or it could be some guy with a concealed gun looking for the killer. Overall would additional people running around with guns certainly add to the confusion and panic.

The shooter and the number of shooters is often unknown for a long time. He doesn't announce himself over speakerphone.
Click to expand...

You're both in the same hallway and he's not shooting at you?
 
Htown said:
LOL

Guess locking your doors when you leave the house is because you're in absolute terror that you're going to be robbed, too.

What kind of failed state has crime so high that people can't leave their houses with their doors and windows open for a few hours?
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Locking a door = carrying a firearm.

Impeccable logic, folks. This thread's going places.
 
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