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[KojiKnight]

I think that 99 % of the people saying "avatar-like" mean 'smoke and mirrors-avatar-like'. There is no way you would ever go about to render a video game in the same manner as a movie. Those claiming it will be impossible to make avatar 'run' in realtime, using the exact same techniques as the movie, for a very long time (if ever) are of course right. But very few are saying literally avatar-graphics. Avatar-'like' is the keyword here and that is far from impossible a few years from now.

I'm reminded of when the 360 was about to come out and many people saying it would have "shrek 2 like graphics", which nothing similar came out of that. I'd say we could see Shrek 2 like graphics this coming gen at least (individual hairs, etc)

 

[Thrillhouse]

I'm reminded of when the 360 was about to come out and many people saying it would have "shrek 2 like graphics", which nothing similar came out of that. I'd say we could see Shrek 2 like graphics this coming gen at least (individual hairs, etc)

Something like that but with worse IQ would be a fair expectation.

 

[KojiKnight]

Something like that but with worse IQ would be a fair expectation.

I'd say that's a realistic expectation this gen, no doubt. It goes into what you're saying, we'll probably see "avatar like" graphics in the next generation or two after PS4... but of course, no system will render it the same way. Honestly, PC/consoles due very little work compared to how CGI movies generate things... Most of the parts of a PC/console game are premade (models, textures, lighting, particles, etc) and are just inserted in with limited "rules" with how to interact with each other.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Something like that but with worse IQ would be a fair expectation.

I think an interesting metric to look at is the difference between one generation's CG sequences and the next generation's real time graphics.

From PS1/N64 gen to DC/PS2/Xbox/GC the jump was pretty incredible, I think that most people will agree that real time graphics exceeded FMV in games from the previous gen.

The last gen to this gen the jump hasn't been as dramatic, most FMV from last gen still looks better than ingame graphics this gen.

Now the question is how will next gen ingame graphics compare to the mid range of CG sequences from this gen? It's still a very subjective way of looking at how graphics have progressed and it's possible that CG techniques are just advancing more quickly than game engines are but are the leap between gens getting smaller?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Really?

Not native res but still holds up against Galaxy.

Sunshine has great water and paint effects.

Wow that screen shot supports the Galaxy>>>>>Sunshine comment.

 

[Sheroking]

Just flipped between Galaxy and Sunshine... the difference is not subtle.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Wow that screen shot supports the Galaxy>>>>>Sunshine comment.

Yep, Sunshine was low poly compared to Galaxy. Both look pretty good still, tho...

 

[KojiKnight]

Yep, Sunshine was low poly compared to Galaxy. Both look pretty good still, tho...

Yeah... the best wii games ate the best GCN games for lunch, easily... I think a lot of people don't think that simply because the early Wii generation was basically a PS2/GCN/X-box situation, only with PSP/PS2/Wii, the former of which are a lot worse, but because a lot of games were ports between those three systems Wii kinda got shafted.

 

[Teletraan1]

I'm pretty sure Nintendo does care. No company gives stuff away, the consumer always pays in the end. And they don't want to make all consumers pay for features only 10% will ever use. "Feature bingo" isn't a game Nintendo plays.

Can you please provide information of what the installed base in any region is for HDMI multichannel surround setups since you always say 10% wont be able to get multichannel surround out of this box. If you can provide me with this information it would be great. If you cant then I would suggest you stop spreading false information. I find it pretty disingenuous that you keep throwing that percentage around since HDMI market penetration is only at or below 90% and that just implies that people have an HDMI device in their homes. That doesn't mean that these 90% can actually get multichannel surround out of said HDMI device.

 

[M°°nblade]

Exactly, and by that same argument the games will work fine on Wii U too. Games are very scalable so it's hard to think that games won't come to Wii U with it's much more modern feature set.

'modern' is barely the correct adjective for what the rumors say is inside the Wii U (R700 / DX10).
That technology is pretty old and already the bare minimum requirement for playing many PC games on the lowest settings in a situation where they are already being held back for the sake of allowing PS360 versions.
When Durango and PS4 hit the shelves, chances are their 'modern' hardware configurations will be used as the new minimum base line and the Wii U may miss the boat due to performance issues or missing dx11 features.

 

[lwilliams3]

After reading up on the latest rumors I don't believe that the Wii U is as powerful as I expected it to be based on Nintendo's comments regarding trying to recapture hardcore gamers but honestly it seems to me that by this point before the launch of the Wii there was way more grumbling and discontent being voiced about its power (or lack thereof) by developers.

The fact that the worst we're hearing right now is that the CPU isn't on par with expectations makes me wonder if Nintendo might have repeated the strategy they took with the power level of the 3DS in that it's not so powerful that it's cost prohibitive but not so weak that it can't be competitive.

The Wii and the DS were good gaming systems that ended up with very good libraries but they missed out on a lot of experiences this gen because they simply weren't powerful enough to handle some types of games.

So far with the 3DS what we've seen is while it's much weaker than the Vita there haven't been any game series it's being excluded from getting based on its power. Could Nintendo be positioning the Wii U to follow suit?

That is a good point. The 3DS is actually not as strong as the Wii, but its GPU has very capable fixed modern shaders. That was probably a major reason why SF4 was able to get ported over to the 3DS, but never reached the Wii. It is also how RE: Revelations looks so good. The PSVita is at least 5-times more power than the 3ds, but the 3DS helds up surprisingly well in some cases. It is possible that the Wii U can get in the similar position if the Wii U was designed efficient enough.

 

[wsippel]

Okay, fair enough, dollars. But my argument was never that Nintendo was greedy, my argument fundamentally is that they are cheap to a fault. Reliability aside, they offer totally barebones systems, instead of offering systems that you don't need to go out and buy this or that additive, for basic functions. If it's the cost of dollars, let's say $10 per unit, and they still charged $300 for the basic package I don't think they'd be bleeding financially from that loss.

But anyway, I would just rather pay a additional cost for a total package than need to hike through Wal Mart or Amazon for every little piece of tech they choose to cut costs on. Maybe some people are okay with that, but I'd rather not bother.

You're looking at it from a consumer point of view, but to really understand any such decision, you need to look at it from a business standpoint. It's not $10 out of $300 as you see it, it's probably closer to $10 out of $50, maybe even just $10 out of $20 - the profit Nintendo makes per unit sold. Assuming the Wii U will sell as well as the Wii did, we're talking about a billion bucks in lost profit over the course of the generation. The return of investment simply isn't there.

By the way, I'm not defending Nintendo's decision, I simply try to explain it.

 

[Shion]

Super Mario Galaxy is perfectly doable on the GC.

Yeah... the best wii games ate the best GCN games for lunch, easily...

 

[KojiKnight]

Super Mario Galaxy is perfectly doable on the GC.

Don't confuse art style for technical ability... GC couldn't have done SMG at least not in the same fashion...

But if you're going to go by that logic, the N64 could have done SMG too.

 

[wsippel]

Super Mario Galaxy is perfectly doable on the GC.

Pretty damn sure it isn't. You do realize the Wii has almost four times as much RAM with three times the bandwidth compared to Gamecube? That alone makes a huge difference and is part of what made games like Mario Galaxy or Xenoblade possible.

 

[lwilliams3]

Double post

 

[Saint Gregory]

You're looking at it from a consumer point of view, but to really understand any such decision, you need to look at it from a business standpoint. It's not $10 out of $300 as you see it, it's probably closer to $10 out of $50, maybe even just $10 out of $20 - the profit Nintendo makes per unit sold. Assuming the Wii U will sell as well as the Wii did, we're talking about a billion bucks in lost profit over the course of the generation. The return of investment simply isn't there.

By the way, I'm not defending Nintendo's decision, I simply try to explain it.

I think one thing that's always going to be really difficult for most gamers to see is that Nintendo and Sony/Microsoft have different goals in mind for their systems.

Nintendo is only a gaming company so they have fewer avenues to offset the costs of subsidizing non-gaming related features in their systems. Sony and Microsoft on the other hand are selling music, videos and other subscription services through their devices that can offset the costs of their more powerful hardware.

As much as I hate Nintendo's penny-pinching what they do makes sense from a business standpoint.

 

[wsippel]

I think one thing that's always going to be really difficult for most gamers to see is that Nintendo and Sony/Microsoft have different goals in mind for their systems.

Nintendo is only a gaming company so they have fewer avenues to offset the costs of subsidizing non-gaming related features in their systems. Sony and Microsoft on the other hand are selling music, videos and other subscription services through their devices that can offset the costs of their more powerful hardware.

As much as I hate Nintendo's penny-pinching what they do makes sense from a business standpoint.

Exactly. Sony and Microsoft aren't offering all those features for free because they love their customers so much, they add them because they expect a return of investment from adding them - or they simply offset the costs by selling horribly overpriced, proprietary accessories. It's business, not charity. The companies may have (slightly) different goals, possibilities and philosophies, but at the end of the day, their sole purpose is to make as much profit as possible.

 

[Shion]

Don't confuse art style for technical ability...

I don't, that's why I posted both WW and Rebel Strike.

GC couldn't have done SMG at least not in the same fashion...

But if you're going to go by that logic, the N64 could have done SMG too.

Comparing Galaxy to Sunshine is not fair for the GC. Sunshine was never particularly impressive from a graphical standpoint. It's not even among GameCube's most impressive games.

Pretty damn sure it isn't. You do realize the Wii has almost four times as much RAM with three times the bandwidth compared to Gamecube? That alone makes a huge difference and is part of what made games like Mario Galaxy or Xenoblade possible.

Galaxy has relatively small worlds and makes good use of the TEV units, I don't see why GC couldn't handle it. I agree about Xenoblade though, the world of Xenoblade is beyond GC's capabilities. This is where the ram makes all the difference.

 

[F#A#Oo]

<3

 

[zoukka]

Super Mario Galaxy is perfectly doable on the GC.

Not fair because there's nothing like WW on 360 and PS3 either...

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Knocks down a tree and shadow doesn't change.
Gonna ask Nintendo to refund my Gamecube.

 

[LCGeek]

Galaxy has relatively small worlds and makes good use of the TEV units, I don't see why GC couldn't handle it. I agree about Xenoblade though, the world of Xenoblade is beyond GC's capabilities. This is where the ram makes all the difference.

Ram can be used for many things besides the size of the worlds. Effects wise SMG is not a game you are going to be placing on GC in any form not without compromising the detail, effects, or lighting in a noticeable way.

Saying it can be put on GC as is just wrong.

 

[KojiKnight]

<3

Indeed, if only they could have made that game for the Wii... Much larger draw distance (while the popin isn't too noticable at native res, upscaled versions on dolphin are very apparent as they pop-in from the 2D sprites in the distance), an ocean more teeming with life and things on screen...

Hell, screw Wii, they need to make a proper sequel on Wii U. When was the last good cell shaded game for a console even released? It seems like it died out quick as a fad... but if any game proves it should have been much more than that it was WW.

 

[blu]

Galaxy has relatively small worlds and makes good use of the TEV units, I don't see why GC couldn't handle it.

Fillrate?

I agree about Xenoblade though, the world of Xenoblade is beyond GC's capabilities. This is where the ram makes all the difference.

How do you know Galaxy does not use more than 24MB of textures per level?

 

[zoukka]

People saying SMG would run on a GC are trolling.

But the Wii's finest in general aren't all that exciting when compared to the best of GC that's for sure.

 

[beril]

Wasn't Sunshine also 30 fps?

It's fair to argue that the jump from GC to Wii was underwhelming at best, or barely noticable most of the time. But claiming that one of the most impressive games could "easily" have been done on a system with half the ram and significantly lower clock speeds is silly. It's impossible to say exactly how close it would have been, but obviously there would have to have been compromises.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Indeed, if only they could have made that game for the Wii... Much larger draw distance (while the popin isn't too noticable at native res, upscaled versions on dolphin are very apparent as they pop-in from the 2D sprites in the distance), an ocean more teeming with life and things on screen...

Hell, screw Wii, they need to make a proper sequel on Wii U. When was the last good cell shaded game for a console even released? It seems like it died out quick as a fad... but if any game proves it should have been much more than that it was WW.

Cell shaded gams are so under-appreciated.

I think the only cell shaded game I played this generation were No More Heroes 1+2 and Prince of Persia...oh and Mad World!

 

[Saint Gregory]

Galaxy has relatively small worlds and makes good use of the TEV units, I don't see why GC couldn't handle it. I agree about Xenoblade though, the world of Xenoblade is beyond GC's capabilities. This is where the ram makes all the difference.

People have either really selective memory when it comes to SMG or they don't fully appreciate how good the game is from a tech standpoint. While the simple art style hides a lot of it there's a ton of geometry in even the smallest levels.

The TEV architecture allowed the developers to save a lot of resources in texture work but whenever you enter a galaxy in the game the entire level is loaded and you can generally see from one end of the world to the other from any point, sometimes being rotated around you in 360 degrees while on a planetoid.

You may have been able to get a good demo of SMG running on the GC since they share so many features between them but SMG could not have run on the GC in its current form.

 

[Rolf NB]

When was the last good cell shaded game for a console even released?

Last month.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Last month.

Oh yeah...lol

 

[KojiKnight]

When was the last good cell shaded game for a console even released?

Went back and highlighted that for you

Yes yes, opinions and what not... but borderlands is just a slightly above average FPS dragged down by 5 minutes of inventory checking between each group of baddies... Worse if you are playing online with people you don't know since if you don't grab everything immediately, you will likely lose out on improvements.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

SMG, like most 360 games as well, is entirely possible on the GCN.

It'll just be uglier.

But unless you're talking about something like an Assassin's Creed which requires more memory, poly pushing, collision crunching, and AI scripting than the GCN could hope to approximate... most games are entirely possible on the GCN. But they might look completely different.

And even then that doesn't make them impossible. AC would be achievable. You might just have two or three separate really low models making up the crowds, the collision system would be really limited, the AI would be more laughable than it was, and the cities would be constricted.

And you're talking about software spreading a fairly huge power gulf there. Not the very minuscule difference between the GCN and Wii.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think an interesting metric to look at is the difference between one generation's CG sequences and the next generation's real time graphics.

From PS1/N64 gen to DC/PS2/Xbox/GC the jump was pretty incredible, I think that most people will agree that real time graphics exceeded FMV in games from the previous gen.

The last gen to this gen the jump hasn't been as dramatic, most FMV from last gen still looks better than ingame graphics this gen.

Now the question is how will next gen ingame graphics compare to the mid range of CG sequences from this gen? It's still a very subjective way of looking at how graphics have progressed and it's possible that CG techniques are just advancing more quickly than game engines are but are the leap between gens getting smaller?

The one case where I might question this is Final Fantasy. Maybe it's because Square's CG hasn't advanced by leaps and bounds between FFX and FFXIII, but to me the gap between FMV and real time has definitely shrunk between the two generations. In FFXIII it actually took me a second longer to notice whenever the game switched between real time and FMV.

I wonder what the chances are that next gen FF will actually look like Agni's Philosophy.

 

[Saint Gregory]

The one case where I might question this is Final Fantasy. Maybe it's because Square's CG hasn't advanced by leaps and bounds between FFX and FFXIII, but to me the gap between FMV and real time has definitely shrunk between the two generations. In FFXIII it actually took me a second longer to notice whenever the game switched between real time and FMV.

I wonder what the chances are that next gen FF will actually look like Agni's Philosophy.

It's been a while since I finished FFXIII but I thought that some of the FMVs were actually prerendered using the ingame engine. There's been a lot of that this gen which has been a good indicator of how much better graphics are ingame overall even if it's not CG quality yet.

I do think SE is the outlier though because they're just so talented with CG film development which is why I used midrange as the baseline for this gen to next gen. I do think SE will get close to th AF demo with at least one of their FF games next gen but I doubt that will be the norm.

 

[Smurfman256]

The one case where I might question this is Final Fantasy. Maybe it's because Square's CG hasn't advanced by leaps and bounds between FFX and FFXIII, but to me the gap between FMV and real time has definitely shrunk between the two generations. In FFXIII it actually took me a second longer to notice whenever the game switched between real time and FMV.

I wonder what the chances are that next gen FF will actually look like Agni's Philosophy.

You must have been playing on the PS3. The PS3 version used native 1080p, high bitrate FMVs for cutscenes which the 360 couldn't have (50GB Blu-ray vs 3 9GB DVDs).

 

[Antagon]

Last month.

Borderlands ain't cel shaded. Plus from what I've seen the style seems very forced, as if the outline shader was added as a last minute change. It doesn't really mesh with the modeling and texturing of the game.

 

[Ridley327]

I'm pretty sure that SMG would've been doable on the GC. Hell, just compare Metroid 3 to Prime...is the difference really that big? It's marginal at best. And rumors before release wre "4-5x faster than GC". And then came the reality check. True for motion gaming as well, we all hoped for 1:1 as advertised. Then Red Steel came out. Wonder if Nintendo does something similar with Wii U. What will it be this time?

I actually think that Prime 3 is one of the few games that I don't think could have been done on the Gamecube, just because of the increased quality of the textures that would have outstripped what was available for memory on the Cube, and they were already running into problems with that when they gave the overall texture detail a slight bump in Metroid Prime 2. Same goes for Donkey Kong Country Returns, even if Jungle Beat was putting Flipper more through the paces with all the fur shading that it featured.

I think that the Cube could have handled SMG with few sacrifices; it was pretty smartly designed to avoid the problems that plagued the framerate in Sunshine with the more "limited" scope of the levels themselves and not featuring anything nearly as taxing as the dynamic liquid effects. Maybe it wouldn't be 60 fps as often, but it would certainly be achievable.

 

[DGRE]

I actually think that Prime 3 is one of the few games that I don't think could have been done on the Gamecube, just because of the increased quality of the textures that would have outstripped what was available for memory on the Cube, and they were already running into problems with that when they gave the overall texture detail a slight bump in Metroid Prime 2. Same goes for Donkey Kong Country Returns, even if Jungle Beat was putting Flipper more through the paces with all the fur shading that it featured.

I think that the Cube could have handled SMG with few sacrifices; it was pretty smartly designed to avoid the problems that plagued the framerate in Sunshine with the more "limited" scope of the levels themselves and not featuring anything nearly as taxing as the dynamic liquid effects. Maybe it wouldn't be 60 fps as often, but it would certainly be achievable.

What purpose does the "smg could've been done on gc" discussion have?

Assassin's Creed could have been done on OG Xbox with sacrifices. PS3 and 360 are doomed right?

 

[Rolf NB]

Went back and highlighted that for you

Yes yes, opinions and what not... but borderlands is just a slightly above average FPS dragged down by 5 minutes of inventory checking between each group of baddies... Worse if you are playing online with people you don't know since if you don't grab everything immediately, you will likely lose out on improvements.

Finally confirmed: Wii U audience friendly to third-party games.

 

[wsippel]

SMG, like most 360 games as well, is entirely possible on the GCN.

It'll just be uglier.

But unless you're talking about something like an Assassin's Creed which requires more memory, poly pushing, collision crunching, and AI scripting than the GCN could hope to approximate... most games are entirely possible on the GCN. But they might look completely different.

And even then that doesn't make them impossible. AC would be achievable. You might just have two or three separate really low models making up the crowds, the collision system would be really limited, the AI would be more laughable than it was, and the cities would be constricted.

And you're talking about software spreading a fairly huge power gulf there. Not the very minuscule difference between the GCN and Wii.

Yep. Top of the line on PC back in 1993: Second Reality by Future Crew. Voted one of the top ten hacks of all time by Slashdot because it was seemingly way beyond what should be possible on a PC back then.

Four years later, Smash Designs presented this at The Party 1997. On a plain old C64 - an 8bit, sub-1MHz machine introduced in 1982.

 

[LCGeek]

I actually think that Prime 3 is one of the few games that I don't think could have been done on the Gamecube, just because of the increased quality of the textures that would have outstripped what was available for memory on the Cube, and they were already running into problems with that when they gave the overall texture detail a slight bump in Metroid Prime 2. Same goes for Donkey Kong Country Returns, even if Jungle Beat was putting Flipper more through the paces with all the fur shading that it featured.

I think that the Cube could have handled SMG with few sacrifices; it was pretty smartly designed to avoid the problems that plagued the framerate in Sunshine with the more "limited" scope of the levels themselves and not featuring anything nearly as taxing as the dynamic liquid effects. Maybe it wouldn't be 60 fps as often, but it would certainly be achievable.

Retro stated why and has at least 2 technical interviews talking about textures improvements that GC cannot do, same for some of the newer effects. Lastly polys Prime games on GC have one of the highest poly counts for a gc game or any game of that gen. Retro couldn't get anymore out what they did in MP2 for gc and went out even more for the Wii.

Various people have been knocking the argument down but it never takes. The ram in GC was highly limiting due to it's size that and a slightly beefier cpu than the original gc actually made Wii was more like dolphin than GC was. WiiU is an advanced dolphin considering it's the first time nintendo has been able to get the edram configuration they want.

 

[Zoramon089]

Really?

Not native res but still holds up against Galaxy.

Sunshine has great water and paint effects.

Seriously, get some glasses. Galaxy, Brawl, MH3, MP3, etc. They look FAR superior

 

[Earendil]

Yep. Top of the line on PC back in 1993: Second Reality by Future Crew. Voted one of the top ten hacks of all time by Slashdot because it was seemingly way beyond what should be possible on a PC back then.

Four years later, Smash Designs presented this at The Party 1997. On a plain old C64 - an 8bit, sub-1MHz machine introduced in 1982.

Holy crap, they pulled off Second Reality on a C64? That thing was the shit back in '93. Between Second Reality and Unreal, those guys blew my mind.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

Really?

Not native res but still holds up against Galaxy.

Sunshine has great water and paint effects.

Are we really doing this?

The Galaxy games shits all over Sunshine in every aspect. It's not even close 99% of the time.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Nintendo did it with the Wii, do you think they are thinking there's LESS people with wireless nowadays? Who wires up their gaming console these days anyway?

I would have rather have had a wired connection during Smash online, and Goldeneye, honestly. When I finally did get the dongle it made a difference, but some of that was my signal quality in my room, where the Wii of all devices got the worst signal. That may change with Wii U though.

And I still have my main 360 hooked up to the hub.

 

[JordanN]

What's with people talking this shit about Wii games possible on Gamecube and consoles coming close to Avatar/Shrek/FMV graphics?

It's universally accepted Xbox was better than Gamecube (which Wii is similar to) and a 1990's movie still pushes more polygons than any video game to date.

 

[LCGeek]

It's universally accepted Xbox was better than Gamecube (which Wii is similar to)

Whose arguing in what post otherwise. There is big difference between maximum power available and what devs ultimately do with it in real time.

 

[JordanN]

Whose arguing in what post otherwise. There is big difference between maximum power available and what devs ultimately do with it in real time.

Comments like "Super Mario Galaxy is perfectly doable on the GC."

Edit: It's also implied said games also take advantage of the hardware.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I would have rather have had a wired connection during Smash online, and Goldeneye, honestly. When I finally did get the dongle it made a difference, but some of that was my signal quality in my room, where the Wii of all devices got the worst signal. That may change with Wii U though.

And I still have my main 360 hooked up to the hub.

Crikey, wifi connections have never been recommended for serious gaming. Too much instability, too many wireless routers that are nearly impossible to configure properly. Resulting in people playing with moderate NAT, suffering packet loss, etc.

PS3 and 360 Slim have wifi built in since that's now "expected" but as far as the online gaming world goes, I sometimes think it's more of a bug than a feature lol.