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[Zeth]

Gruber has a new post addressing the 3 biggest questions: Retina, price vs other products, name.

http://daringfireball.net/2012/10/ipad_questions_and_answers

The thinking behind this question usually goes like this: the iPad (3) has a retina display and the iPhone and iPod Touch have had them for two years, so how can Apple introduce a new device without one? That’s perfectly logical. But consider this: each new iOS mobile device has debuted with a non-retina display, and then gone retina two or three years later.

Another way to look at it is that Apple has to choose its trade-offs. The flagship feature of the iPad (3) is its display. The cost, in terms of trade-offs, is that it is thicker and heavier than the iPad 2 because that big gorgeous bright display requires so much more power. When designing anything, you pick one or two primary attributes and you compromise on everything else.

I expect the primary attributes of the smaller iPad to be thinness, weight, and price. A retina display would make it thicker, heavier, and more expensive. I would love to be proven wrong, for Apple engineering magic to put a 7.85-inch 2048 × 1536 display into this smaller iPad and yet keep it remarkably thin (say, 7.2 mm or so) and light and hit price points under (and perhaps well under) $300. But I think “magic” is the key word there.

Lastly, debuting with a non-retina display would help differentiate the new smaller iPad from the regular (and more expensive) iPad (3). Retina displays are premium features; the new smaller iPad is not the premium model in the lineup. You don’t want to buy one because it doesn’t have a retina display? OK, buy the regular iPad (3) that does.

The thinking behind this question seems to be something like this: bigger is better, smaller is cheaper, so if the new iPod Touch costs $299 then the smaller iPad has to cost $349 or more because otherwise, if this new smaller iPad cost less than the new Touches, everyone who’s thinking about buying an iPod Touch is going to buy one of these iPads instead because it’s got a bigger display and costs less.

I see several things wrong with that line of thinking. It’s true that smaller generally implies cheaper, but miniature carries a premium.1 The 13-inch MacBook Pro is smaller than the 15, and thus cheaper. The 11-inch MacBook Air is smaller than the 13, and thus cheaper. But the iPod Touch isn’t just smaller than the iPad — it’s miniature. Gadget prices tend to follow a U-shaped curve: big is expensive, small is cheap, miniature is expensive. The iPad (3) is near the beginning of the curve. The iPhone and iPod Touch are at the end. This new smaller iPad will be in the middle.

Second is that Apple has no problem if iPod sales, including the Touch, continue to be cannibalized by other iOS devices. If a customer walks into the store and sees a (say) $249 smaller iPad and decides to buy that instead of a $299 iPod Touch simply because it’s cheaper and bigger at the same time, that’s still a win for Apple. The customer just bought an iPad.

On the other hand, if a customer walks into the Apple Store and wants to buy something that will fit in their pants pocket or strap onto their arm while exercising, the iPad isn’t even in the picture. They’re going to buy an iPod Touch or an iPhone; it’s simply a question of which one.

Don’t worry about comparing the price of the new smaller iPad to the iPod Touch. It’s a different category. Compare it to the price of competing tablets and to the regular iPad. That’s all that matters.

You know what other Apple product’s primary attributes are thinness, weight, and price? The MacBook Air. And, no coincidence, the latest revisions to the Air lineup debuted on stage at WWDC without retina displays. We’re a couple of years away from Apple going retina across the board. That’s why my guesses as to what the thing is going to be called go in this order:

iPad Air
iPad
iPad Mini
“Mini” just doesn’t feel like the right way to describe something that’s remarkably thinner and lighter but not that much smaller than the regular iPad. But I wouldn’t bet against any of those three names.

 

[Vyer]

True, in that most consumers are largely uncritical. It is still odd in the sense that Apple introduced numbered releases with the fourth iPhone, the iPhone 4, but then proceded to break the new system by mixing in the S nomenclature. There's no way to make Apple's own decisions consistent with each other regarding iPhone naming.

They started the 'S' designation before that, when they took the 3G and ran with it for whatever reason.

iPhone
iPhone 3G
iPhone 3GS
iPhone 4
iPhone 4S
iPhone 5

 

[dallow_bg]

Gruber has a new post addressing the 3 biggest questions: Retina, price vs other products, name.

http://daringfireball.net/2012/10/ipad_questions_and_answers

Basically the same things that have been posted here.

 

[Tobor]

I'm in the market for iTunes being less bad.

I'm all for making it more iOS like, which is what it looks like they're doing. I guess that's cool.

 

[Yoshiya]

They started the 'S' designation before that, when they took the 3G and ran with it for whatever reason.

I know, I'm just saying the logic for the name iPhone 4 isn't in any way compatible with the iPhone 5 being two models later. It's pedantic of me, but it does irritate me somewhat.

 

[Zeth]

Basically the same things that have been posted here.

I thought it could be required reading for people new to the discussion

 

[Appleman]

Gonna have the same internals as the new iPod touch minus the retina display.. I say $299 for the 8gb and the space doubles with $100 increments.

I have to think that it's gotta be 16GB if they're starting at $299. The only way I see 8GB happening is if they stoop to $249

I understand the logic behind a revised iPad 3 with Lightning connector, but I feel like we would have had a component leak at this point if it was happening.

This is what I'm thinking as well. Would definitely have a rear shell leak with the lightning connector hole unless the lightning update is silent and has nothing to do with this event timing wise.

 

[DGRE]

Any speculation on MBP 13" Retina pricing?

 

[LCfiner]

I read that Gruber article earlier. I wouldn't say there's anything in there that made me look at the situation differently. It covers a lot of the material that's been discussed elsewhere but doesn't provide a new perspective.

I certainly agree with him that ipod touch pricing shouldn't be an indicator that this will be over 300 bucks. A lot of people stopped thinking rationally when those were revealed last month. The ipad mini is going to have a different set of compromises (screen ppi, storage, lack of pocket-ability, maybe camera quality) that will make a sub 300 dollar price make sense and not kill Touch sales entirely.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Any speculation on MBP 13" Retina pricing?

Why not speculate yourself? It would be just as accurate, but save you having to wait for an equally unconfirmed response.

To answer your question though, probably around $4,000.

 

[Yoshiya]

8GB for an iOS device is borderline unusable, if that indeed is the entry for the iPad Air (I'll go with that). I had a 16GB first gen iPad and regretted skimping on storage.

 

[Zeth]

Any speculation on MBP 13" Retina pricing?

1499 would be a safe bet I think. Give or take $100?

 

[Tobor]

8GB for an iOS device is borderline unusable, if that indeed is the entry for the iPad Air (I'll go with that). I had a 16GB first gen iPad and regretted skimping on storage.

/high five

 

[Vyer]

I know, I'm just saying the logic for the name iPhone 4 isn't in any way compatible with the iPhone 5 being two models later. It's pedantic of me, but it does irritate me somewhat.

Yeah, I understand. I think I made my peace when it happened with the 4, as it was two models past the 3G. Really, now I just consider them more model designations than numerical, as each (3G,4,5) are a new iteration of the design.

 

[outunderthestars]

I can't believe how slow Apple has been to upgrade storage capacities on their devices. It is almost 2013 and we are still talking about the possibility of 8GB of storage?

 

[noah111]

This event won't be very exciting for me. I'm not in the market for anything that's being announced.

I have to agree. Actually, the only reason i'm hyped for it is they'll supposedly be releasing the new iTunes simultaneously.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I can't believe how slow Apple has been to upgrade storage capacities on their devices. It is almost 2013 and we are still talking about the possibility of 8GB of storage?

The vast majority of people don't need that much storage anyway, but with iCloud existing it's even less important.

 

[Zeth]

9to5Mac says it will be $1699. Same $500 premium over non-retina as the 15". They have had extremely accurate contacts for pricing/retail details in the past.

http://9to5mac.com/2012/10/19/estimated-prices-on-13-inch-retina-macbook-pros/

Seems high.

 

[noah111]

iPad Air
iPad
iPad Mini
“Mini” just doesn’t feel like the right way to describe something that’s remarkably thinner and lighter but not that much smaller than the regular iPad. But I wouldn’t bet against any of those three names.

iPad S

Spoiler

lim

The vast majority of people don't need that much storage anyway, but with iCloud existing it's even less important.

Maybe i'm missing something, but I thought you could only download your music library from the cloud to your device, not stream it. Has that been changed? If not, space is still important.

But even if you can stream, there's still the issue of apps. The size of apps are ever increasing with all these different resolutions and aspect ratios being thrown into the mix.

 

[kr2t0s]

I thought it could be required reading for people new to the discussion

Don't give that hack more credibility.

 

[Bigfoot]

The vast majority of people don't need that much storage anyway, but with iCloud existing it's even less important.

Are you kidding? 8 GB storage really means 6.5 GB available and it doesn't take long for the average user to fill up that space with a few big apps, some music, and a video or two. I would say the vast majority of people need 16 GB which should be the base model.

 

[outunderthestars]

The vast majority of people don't need that much storage anyway, but with iCloud existing it's even less important.

iCloud doesn't allow for media streaming, and iPads are often used outside of wifi areas. How much would it actually raise the cost of an iPad to bump the base model to 32GB?

 

[jts]

Are you kidding? 8 GB storage really means 6.5 GB available and it doesn't take long for the average user to fill up that space with a few big apps, some music, and a video or two. I would say the vast majority of people need 16 GB which should be the base model.

The other day I had to update my brother's iPod touch (8GB) to iOS 6. And guess what, I needed 2.4GB of free space to download and install the update, so basically it could only have 4GB of stuff in it.

It's really bad.

I guess that Apple kinda acknowledges that nowadays, with most of the iOS line starting at 16GB, the exception being the iPhone 4, which I guess is their budget phone for complete casuals who just want a phone.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

9to5Mac says it will be $1699. Same $500 premium over non-retina as the 15". They have had extremely accurate contacts for pricing/retail details in the past.

http://9to5mac.com/2012/10/19/estimated-prices-on-13-inch-retina-macbook-pros/

Seems high.

http://store.sony.com/c/Z-Series-Laptops/en/c/S_Z_SERIES_PAGE


there's a solid, stable market for high-price 13" laptops. In theory, this retina 13" should have equivalent or better specs than the Z for around the same price. and a better screen.

 

[Appleman]

iCloud doesn't allow for media streaming, and iPads are often used outside of wifi areas. How much would it actually raise the cost of an iPad to bump the base model to 32GB?

iTunes Match does though, and with a data connection I have far less need for increased storage. I'll agree that 8GB is too small and I think I'm going to settle on 16GB for $299... iPads are way more oriented towards larger apps and since this will be running standard iPad apps I can't imagine 8GB being usable for anyone except those using it as a pure web browser...

Also, for some reason "iPad Air" just doesn't sit right with me, I'm leaning towards this just being called iPad

 

[jts]

http://store.sony.com/c/Z-Series-Laptops/en/c/S_Z_SERIES_PAGE


there's a solid, stable market for high-price 13" laptops. In theory, this retina 13" should have equivalent or better specs than the Z for around the same price. and a better screen.

My wallet weeps. This one I'm saving for christmas.

iTunes Match does though, and with a data connection I have far less need for increased storage. I'll agree that 8GB is too small and I think I'm going to settle on 16GB for $299... iPads are way more oriented towards larger apps and since this will be running standard iPad apps I can't imagine 8GB being usable for anyone except those using it as a pure web browser...

Also, for some reason "iPad Air" just doesn't sit right with me, I'm leaning towards this just being called iPad

I don't buy iPad Air either because the Air line just tries to be as thin and light as possible by integrating everything. Well that's the iPad already. I know the new one is worse in that regard but it will be better as technology allows for it.

The new one is smaller is screen size. That's where the gains come from. So I think mini suits it better.

 

[jts]

fucking double post, you people should post more

 

[Somnid]

Space isn't a huge issue depending on how savvy you are. I think starting the new iPod at 32GB was obnoxious because I never got close to filling my 8GB iPod Touch.

Music: Pandora, Spotify, Rdio or Amazon Could Player, iTunes Match etc.

Video: Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Instant etc.

Photos: iCloud, Dropbox, Google Drive etc.

Documents: Dropbox, Google Drive, Skydrive etc.

Really all you need is room for applications and cache a few things that you'd want if you'll be away from Wifi for very long. Honestly most apps don't even make good use of on board space anyway, usually opting to connect to a server to retrieve data with very light caching because modern business is service-based. Otherwise I would buy a 32GB iPod and cache all the map data within 100 miles of where I live.

 

[border]

8GB seems pretty reasonable, depending on the OS footprint.

People with a heavy media collection won't like it, but most people just want to browse the web, listen to Spotify/Pandora, and maybe play a few games. It's perfectly acceptable for that.

 

[The Real Abed]

I have to agree. Actually, the only reason i'm hyped for it is they'll supposedly be releasing the new iTunes simultaneously.

I'm kind of interested in the iPad. But I might end up waiting for the 4th generation full sized unless this one draws me in.

I'm also more interested in the new iTunes. And seeing the supposed 13" Retina Pro since the Rev. B will be my next machine next fall.

 

[John_B]

My wallet weeps. This one I'm saving for christmas.

The Z? I would stay clear of that based on the fragile material alone. The whole unit bends like nothing. Nice design though.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Haven't read the thread but what are the odds of new iMacs and updated iPad specs for this announcement?

 

[Bboy AJ]

Haven't read the thread but what are the odds of new iMacs and updated iPad specs for this announcement?

iMac high
iPad 3 I don't think there will be any changes whatsoever. Bunch of GAFers believe lightning connector will be included from now on. Some crazies even believe a new processor and screen.

 

[mrklaw]

Space isn't a huge issue depending on how savvy you are. I think starting the new iPod at 32GB was obnoxious because I never got close to filling my 8GB iPod Touch.

Music: Pandora, Spotify, Rdio or Amazon Could Player, iTunes Match etc.

Video: Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Instant etc.

Photos: iCloud, Dropbox, Google Drive etc.

Documents: Dropbox, Google Drive, Skydrive etc.

Really all you need is room for applications and cache a few things that you'd want if you'll be away from Wifi for very long. Honestly most apps don't even make good use of on board space anyway, usually opting to connect to a server to retrieve data with very light caching because modern business is service-based. Otherwise I would buy a 32GB iPod and cache all the map data within 100 miles of where I live.

There are plenty of apps - especially reference books or children's stuff, that are a gigabyte or more. Even more that are several hundred megabytes. On an 8GB iPad you could easily run out of memory before even filling the first screen with apps

 

[outunderthestars]

Space isn't a huge issue depending on how savvy you are. I think starting the new iPod at 32GB was obnoxious because I never got close to filling my 8GB iPod Touch.

Music: Pandora, Spotify, Rdio or Amazon Could Player, iTunes Match etc.

Video: Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Instant etc.

Photos: iCloud, Dropbox, Google Drive etc.

Documents: Dropbox, Google Drive, Skydrive etc.

Really all you need is room for applications and cache a few things that you'd want if you'll be away from Wifi for very long. Honestly most apps don't even make good use of on board space anyway, usually opting to connect to a server to retrieve data with very light caching because modern business is service-based. Otherwise I would buy a 32GB iPod and cache all the map data within 100 miles of where I live.

That is a great plan, until you are away from a wifi connection. Then you have a $300 paperweight.

 

[jts]

The Z? I would stay clear of that based on the fragile material alone. The whole unit bends like nothing. Nice design though.

Nah, the retina 13". I just quoted that post because it's reinforcing the idea of a USD 1500-1600 price point and I have to get prepared for that :/

 

[LowEndTorque]

$1699 is robbery if the rumor about no GPU in the 13" rmbp is true.

 

[numble]

iMac high
iPad 3 I don't think there will be any changes whatsoever. Bunch of GAFers believe lightning connector will be included from now on. Some crazies even believe a new processor and screen.

If every A5 processor is now 32nm with HK+MG, but A5X is 45nm without HK+MG, why not move to 32nm and HK+MG?
If IGZO screens are more power efficient and available, why not move to IGZO screens?
A combination of the two also leads to decreasing requirement for amount of backlight panels and battery size.

All leading to better margins as Apple enters the holiday season. I would do it. I think it makes economic sense, but I'm not Tim Cook and don't know the actual margins and costs at play.

 

[mrklaw]

$1699 is robbery if the rumor about no GPU in the 13" rmbp is true.

With the 15" struggling sometimes, I can't begin to imagine how bad an integrated graphics driven retina MBP could be. Even allowing for the lower res screen

 

[Buckethead]

I couldn't care less about the iPad Mini.

Gimme the new iTunes dammit.

 

[border]

That is a great plan, until you are away from a wifi connection. Then you have a $300 paperweight.

Pretty much all of the i-products cease to be fun once your internet connection goes away. I keep about 3GB of music on hand, but I usually just listen to already-downloaded podcasts or play games that don't require an internet connection.

 

[Ashhong]

Pretty much all of the i-products cease to be fun once your internet connection goes away. I keep about 3GB of music on hand, but I usually just listen to already-downloaded podcasts or play games that don't require an internet connection.

Hey now, I had an iPhone for like...3 years with no data plan, and I have a Galaxy S2 still with no data. It's still fun, just nowhere near as much lol

 

[Somnid]

That is a great plan, until you are away from a wifi connection. Then you have a $300 paperweight.

They are pretty paper-weighty lacking wifi regardless. They are connected devices, applications expect the internet. Still you can hold a decent amount of content in 8GB. Like every book you own, a few albums and a few games. But really if I was going to do that I'd just take my 3DS which works a whole lot better as an offline activity device.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Are you kidding? 8 GB storage really means 6.5 GB available and it doesn't take long for the average user to fill up that space with a few big apps, some music, and a video or two. I would say the vast majority of people need 16 GB which should be the base model.

I think I poorly stated what I was getting at, I meant more than the current 8-64 gig range in Apple products, which he was stating was somehow not enough. I can't imagine anyone except the most insane people needing more than 64.

 

[Souless_PJ]

Google running scared. Nexus 7 32Gb @ $250

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/19/32gb-nexus-7-249-oct-29th-leak/

 

[Baconsammy]

Google running scared. Nexus 7 32Gb @ $250

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/19/32gb-nexus-7-249-oct-29th-leak/

LOL. One more choice that my wife is going to have to make. It's now down to Nexus 7, iPad Mini, Kindle Fire HD, or one of the new Chrome books. Personally I hope she goes with the Chrome book since I want to use one.

 

[dwebo]

more retina 13 pics:
http://9to5mac.com/2012/10/19/more-13-inch-retina-macbook-pro-pictures-surface-gallery/

from the incredibly small fan assembly shot, it looks like there isn't a discrete gpu chip in there, so the rumors that it'd only be igpu powered are probably correct

 

[giga]

more retina 13 pics:
http://9to5mac.com/2012/10/19/more-13-inch-retina-macbook-pro-pictures-surface-gallery/

from the incredibly small fan assembly shot, it looks like there isn't a discrete gpu chip in there, so the rumors that it'd only be igpu powered are probably correct

Eh? I see two fans there and the bare Intel PCH, which indicates CPU and GPU to me. Here's the 13" Air, with only one fan for the cpu:

I do only see one heatsink though, so that could indicate an igpu. Makes me wonder why they would use two fans though.

 

[Majine]

I couldn't care less about the iPad Mini.

Gimme the new iTunes dammit.

Hear hear. Up next is the #gamechanger.

 

[dwebo]

Eh? I see two fans there and the bare Intel PCH, which indicates CPU and GPU to me. Here's the 13" Air, with only one fan for the cpu:

this is what the retina macbook looks like, from ifixit:

the heatsink assembly covers two chips, the one on the right being the nvidia gpu