Just what is Sony doing with Vita? If they've given-up, they should just kill it.

You know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking you don't want anything on it. You don't want console type experiences because there are consoles for that, and you don't want handheld type experiences because they're too "cell phone game-esque". Unless you can give me examples of games that are not console-like (whatever that means) OR cell-phone-like, then I think you're being very disingenuous about the whole thing. You mentioned Gravity Rush earlier. That was a game that EASILY could have been on a console. It started development on the PS3, in fact.

No, I definitely don't want smaller-scale carbon copies of games that already exist on PS3. But I also don't want Android/iOS stuff. Can Gravity Rush and Tearaway be made for consoles? (with reworked controls?) Sure. These types of games don't really have a chance on consoles anymore though. With console games, it seems like it always has to be some AAA, established IP, big-budget safe title that doesn't take risk. Quirky/oddball games have taken a back seat. Same thing with the really "Japanese-y" titles. These are the games that I want the 3DS and Vita to cultivate.

Quirky/Creative/stylized/Oddball =/= Plant vs. Zombies/Angry Birds/etc.

I'm talking stuff like:

  • Katamari Damacy
  • Ghost Trick
  • Every Extend Extra
  • Contact
  • Cubivore
  • Echochrome
  • Zero Escape VLR
  • etc.

Along with RPGs. Basically, titles that are willing to take more risk than a home console game, but feel bigger and meatier than a cellphone game, ( in retrospect, middle-tier/B-games that were plentiful on ps2 did this a lot). Also, be exclusive to Vita and feel like it's made for it from the ground up.
 
The Vita has a varied library but no must have games.

Comparatively, the 3DS has several must have games.

"Must buy" is an excruciatingly subjective term.

For me, Alan Wake was a "must buy."

inFAMOUS 2 was a "must buy."

Gravity Rush was a "must buy."

LBP Vita was a "must buy."

"Must buy" will mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. What is must buy for Nintendo fans may not be a must buy for PlayStation fans. I don't buy Nintendo platforms because of Super Mario Bros. As I said in an earlier post, I bought a Gamecube for Animal Crossing. Eternal Darkness as well. Metroid Prime, Smash Bros Melee, and Windwaker were icing on the cake.

I bought a Vita for Uncharted, LBP, and Gravity Rush, primarily. Others bought it for other games.

One of the things that I always thought was great of Sony was to have a diverse library of titles that catered to a broad range of gamers. I'm not that big into puzzle games (I like them, but I'm not buying a Vita for Lumines and Plants vs Zombies), but I love action/adventure games and RPGs. The Vita has a few standout action adventure games, and its RPG library is growing as well.

I just think that "must buy" is too subjective to make declarative statements about. There may well be that one game that sends people into a buying frenzy for the Vita, but who knows what that game will be. I prefer to have the wide range of titles to choose from, than the one title to rule them all, and get sales. It seems like most of the quality Vita titles have had some measure of success on the platform, even if they are not lighting up sales charts.
 
Very little of what's said about the Vita is complaining about the quality of the hardware, though. It's generally regarded as a very nice piece of tech. The library is extremely divisive, in that for a lot of hardcore gamers it's not as wonderful as you think, or at least not uniquely wonderful enough to motivate a system purchase. For some people it's must-have after must-have, while for some a large chunk of the library feels photocopied from consoles creating a lineup that feels familiar and diminished to them.

The low sales didn't make the Dreamcast crap, anymore than low sales make the Vita crap. Low sales did make the Dreamcast a failure as a product, in much the way the low sales are shaping up to do the same for Vita. And for those not impressed with the current Vita library (which is totally possible without having an anti-Vita agenda), the missing mass market appeal is a big deal. Not because the Vita selling has any relation to the quality of the hardware, but because it is going to directly influence what you'll be able to play on the future going forward. The Dreamcast is remembered fondly for its library, not because of the tech crammed inside it. There will be people who would look back on the Vita fondly if no games beyond those already announced ever came out for it, but if the lineup right now doesn't impress the current performance does nothing to indicate it will expand substantially.

Sales are totally irrelevant to anyone currently in a torrid love affair with their Vita; I get that, and I think most people posting in sales threads get that. But for the people who aren't yet on-board? Sales matter because of what it means for the future, and Sony's action/inaction to spur further sales is important because it indicates how committed the manufacturer is to actually turning the tech into something many people want to buy. So it's the people who actually do have some interest in the hardware who are most likely to be critical of sales and Sony's response--either convince them to buy, or just admit it's dead, basically.
 
Edit: Also I find it funny that people frame the system failing being the fault of consumers. No, it's Sony's fault. Like how the Dreamcast was Sega's fault.

The Dreamcast had an amazing library of arcade perfect ports and rock solid first party support (Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 excluded). That one was on us.
 
"Console type" games are fine - bad versions of games you can already play on console are not.

Gravity Rush is cool. Soul Sacrifice is cool. They may be "console type" games but they aren't just the B-team version of a console game.
 
"Console type" games are fine - bad versions of games you can already play on console are not.

Gravity Rush is cool. Soul Sacrifice is cool. They may be "console type" games but they aren't just the B-team version of a console game.

"Console type" in terms of scope is fine. So long as it's an original, new effort. "Console type" handheld version of a game that already exists on consoles is a no deal for me.
 
So, how would people take to it moving to a contract model?
$99 up front plus an undertaking to subscribe to PSN+ for 24/36 months.

Idea's been tossed around for the next gen platforms, why not Vita? Obviously Sony need tp get Plus up and running for Vita first, but after that, why not?
 
Very little of what's said about the Vita is complaining about the quality of the hardware, though. It's generally regarded as a very nice piece of tech. The library is extremely divisive, in that for a lot of hardcore gamers it's not as wonderful as you think, or at least not uniquely wonderful enough to motivate a system purchase. For some people it's must-have after must-have, while for some a large chunk of the library feels photocopied from consoles creating a lineup that feels familiar and diminished to them.

The low sales didn't make the Dreamcast crap, anymore than low sales make the Vita crap. Low sales did make the Dreamcast a failure as a product, in much the way the low sales are shaping up to do the same for Vita. And for those not impressed with the current Vita library (which is totally possible without having an anti-Vita agenda), the missing mass market appeal is a big deal. Not because the Vita selling has any relation to the quality of the hardware, but because it is going to directly influence what you'll be able to play on the future going forward. The Dreamcast is remembered fondly for its library, not because of the tech crammed inside it. There will be people who would look back on the Vita fondly if no games beyond those already announced ever came out for it, but if the lineup right now doesn't impress the current performance does nothing to indicate it will expand substantially.

Sales are totally irrelevant to anyone currently in a torrid love affair with their Vita; I get that, and I think most people posting in sales threads get that. But for the people who aren't yet on-board? Sales matter because of what it means for the future, and Sony's action/inaction to spur further sales is important because it indicates how committed the manufacturer is to actually turning the tech into something many people want to buy. So it's the people who actually do have some interest in the hardware who are most likely to be critical of sales and Sony's response--either convince them to buy, or just admit it's dead, basically.

Thank you.
 
"Console type" games are fine - bad versions of games you can already play on console are not.

Gravity Rush is cool. Soul Sacrifice is cool. They may be "console type" games but they aren't just the B-team version of a console game.

Quite true, but why aren't those being pushed by Sony? Instead we have Cowwadooty and Assassin's Creed, games that both seem like weaker side entries to the "big boy" home editions. They pulled this same thing with the PSP when they only advertised console franchises on the go, but they should at least attempt to emphasize games that don't fit that mold. The issue I find with Vita is that philosophy for Sony's marketing of the PSP in NA/EU is the philosophy for the Vita even in Japan, and I think the sales show that this marketing push isn't really resonating with consumers. I don't mind console games on the go, but there has to be more to a portable platform than a console franchise now on the go, which is something Sony's marketing seems to have abandoned.
 
No, I definitely don't want smaller-scale carbon copies of games that already exist on PS3. But I also don't want Android/iOS stuff. Can Gravity Rush and Tearaway be made for consoles? (with reworked controls?) Sure.

Perhaps you could rework the controls for Gravity Rush to fit a home console. However, much of Tearaway's design is highly dependent on Vita's distinctive features. Removing those features would remove a great deal of Tearaway's appeal.

Oh, and BTW (following up on my post from a few minutes ago), I actually did spot that Assassin's Creed III: Liberation commercial during tonight's episode of WWE Monday Night Raw. At last, Sony has opened the advertising wallet again! :)
 
"Must buy" is an excruciatingly subjective term.

For me, Alan Wake was a "must buy."

inFAMOUS 2 was a "must buy."

Gravity Rush was a "must buy."

LBP Vita was a "must buy."

"Must buy" will mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. What is must buy for Nintendo fans may not be a must buy for PlayStation fans. I don't buy Nintendo platforms because of Super Mario Bros. As I said in an earlier post, I bought a Gamecube for Animal Crossing. Eternal Darkness as well. Metroid Prime, Smash Bros Melee, and Windwaker were icing on the cake.

I bought a Vita for Uncharted, LBP, and Gravity Rush, primarily. Others bought it for other games.

One of the things that I always thought was great of Sony was to have a diverse library of titles that catered to a broad range of gamers. I'm not that big into puzzle games (I like them, but I'm not buying a Vita for Lumines and Plants vs Zombies), but I love action/adventure games and RPGs. The Vita has a few standout action adventure games, and its RPG library is growing as well.

I just think that "must buy" is too subjective to make declarative statements about. There may well be that one game that sends people into a buying frenzy for the Vita, but who knows what that game will be. I prefer to have the wide range of titles to choose from, than the one title to rule them all, and get sales. It seems like most of the quality Vita titles have had some measure of success on the platform, even if they are not lighting up sales charts.

I love CAVE shmups, and I personally would buy a console just to play those games, but I know they don't exactly move hardware.

Tastes vary of course, but you know a "must have" system selling game when you see it. Mario, Mario Kart, Monster Hunter (in Japan). Games like that. Mario games are 20M+ sellers. One mainline Mario game can ensure the success on the entire system. Sony's one must have game is Gran Turismo, but they really half-assed the PSP version.
 
Very little of what's said about the Vita is complaining about the quality of the hardware, though. It's generally regarded as a very nice piece of tech. The library is extremely divisive, in that for a lot of hardcore gamers it's not as wonderful as you think, or at least not uniquely wonderful enough to motivate a system purchase. For some people it's must-have after must-have, while for some a large chunk of the library feels photocopied from consoles creating a lineup that feels familiar and diminished to them.

The low sales didn't make the Dreamcast crap, anymore than low sales make the Vita crap. Low sales did make the Dreamcast a failure as a product, in much the way the low sales are shaping up to do the same for Vita. And for those not impressed with the current Vita library (which is totally possible without having an anti-Vita agenda), the missing mass market appeal is a big deal. Not because the Vita selling has any relation to the quality of the hardware, but because it is going to directly influence what you'll be able to play on the future going forward. The Dreamcast is remembered fondly for its library, not because of the tech crammed inside it. There will be people who would look back on the Vita fondly if no games beyond those already announced ever came out for it, but if the lineup right now doesn't impress the current performance does nothing to indicate it will expand substantially.

Sales are totally irrelevant to anyone currently in a torrid love affair with their Vita; I get that, and I think most people posting in sales threads get that. But for the people who aren't yet on-board? Sales matter because of what it means for the future, and Sony's action/inaction to spur further sales is important because it indicates how committed the manufacturer is to actually turning the tech into something many people want to buy. So it's the people who actually do have some interest in the hardware who are most likely to be critical of sales and Sony's response--either convince them to buy, or just admit it's dead, basically.


Which brings the point that Sony has never given up on a console and there is no reason to believe they will. If a person is concerned about the sales of the system instead of finding a game they would like then they are only contributing to the issue.


There was negativity about the PSP, there was negativity surrounding the PS3, there is negativity surrounding the Vita. I doubt this will change Sony's behavior because they stuck to their guns and worked on the libraries.

Quite true, but why aren't those being pushed by Sony? Instead we have Cowwadooty and Assassin's Creed, games that both seem like weaker side entries to the "big boy" home editions. They pulled this same thing with the PSP when they only advertised console franchises on the go, but they should at least attempt to emphasize games that don't fit that mold. The issue I find with Vita is that philosophy for Sony's marketing of the PSP in NA/EU is the philosophy for the Vita even in Japan, and I think the sales show that this marketing push isn't really resonating with consumers. I don't mind console games on the go, but there has to be more to a portable platform than a console franchise now on the go, which is something Sony's marketing seems to have abandoned.

They are weaker entries. It is a handheld. Why one earth would you expect something better?

AC:L though is pretty fun so far. Every franchise I have put my hands on, that has a "big boy" home edition, has been great with the exception of resistance. COD looks like it will be a mess but I am not trying to judge it before the reviewers have thier say. I do not have any high hopes for it though.
 
Why? It's still getting a sequel, while Resistance: Burning Skies, more than likely is not.

I think, when some people are arguing sales, they forget that game developers have budget goals that they have set in place for their game. They know how much it's going to cost to produce their game, and they know how much the game is supposed to sell to break even, and how much it must sell to turn a profit.

According to the director/creator of Gravity Rush, he is hard at work on a sequel. So even though the game didn't sell as well as Resistance: BS, it sold enough to warrant a sequel. Positive word of mouth about Gravity Rush helped it out, I think. Well, that, and the really unique look and tone of the game. Perhaps Resistance: BS had a higher budget, and the sales, while more than GR, didn't reach their minimum expectations of sales.

I liken Gravity Rush to just about any new IP: A solid core, that I'm sure the sequel will build upon beautifully. One of my favorite examples is Assassin's Creed and Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. AC was a good game. Not great, but good. It had a solid groundwork, but suffered from repetition and some game design flaws. Uncharted was better than AC1, but it was a straight forward, simple, if not beautiful, third person shooter.

Their respective sequels kicked ass.

I think Gravity Rush 2 will be much better than the original.

Also, just because a lot of Vita games look incredibly impressive, doesn't mean they're boasting $30 million budgets. I'd be surprised if the average Vita game breached $10 million. I can't even see AC3: Lib and Uncharted: GA costing that much to produce. The visuals are only one part of the development cost, and being able to utilize assets or materials from perhaps a parent series on the consoles, will only cut down on those costs.

I just don't think it's as imperative for a Vita title (or 3DS title either, for that matter) to sell 5 or 6 million units like it may be for a console title with a big budget. What is "big" as far as budget is concerned, for Vita development. Some of you guys act as if every Vita game released has a Metal Gear Solid 4 level budget.

I bet Killzone: Mercenaries for the Vita cost less than $10 million to make. Should it then have to sell 5 million units to turn a profit?

The metric for success for handheld games, I think, is a bit different than console games. If a handheld game breaks 3 or 4 million units sold, I think that's amazing and probably far beyond the developer's expectations.

Definitely glad to hear its getting a sequel. I get that sports/FPS and "grown up" games have taken center-stage on home consoles. I've swallowed that bitter pill. I would like to think that stuff like Gravity Rush/VLR/Tearaway/JRPGs/etc. would thrive more than stuff like Resistance on handhelds though. Developers would have more incentive to make more games like these, which is what I want outta Vita.

Perhaps you could rework the controls for Gravity Rush to fit a home console. However, much of Tearaway's design is highly dependent on Vita's distinctive features. Removing those features would remove a great deal of Tearaway's appeal.

Which is just fine. So long as Vita's idea of a diverse library is not stuff like Uncharted/Resistance and cell phone games.
 
As some have already said, the problem with Vita isn't the tech, it's that most consumers don't want console quality games on the go. People want quick distractions while they wait at the doctor's office, take a bus ride, wait for class to start, etc, and big long 'core' experiences don't fit that. And what good is it to play the Vita games at home when those same games can be done on the PS3 with a nice home theater setup.

If Sony wants to sell Vitas they need to start investing in games that can be picked up for quick plays and releasing apps that go beyond gaming to convince consumers that they NEED to take this thing everywhere they go.
 
Which brings the point that Sony has never given up on a console and there is no reason to believe they will. If a person is concerned about the sales of the system instead of finding a game they would like then they are only contributing to the issue.


There was negativity about the PSP, there was negativity surrounding the PS3, there is negativity surrounding the Vita. I doubt this will change Sony's behavior because they stuck to their guns and worked on the libraries.

While I don't really subscribe to the idea that Sony will pull the plug on the Vita, it is important to make the distinction that unlike the PSP and PS3 its sales are demonstrably worse.

And one can be concerned about that in the sense of "I want this system to garner more developer support, which isn't going to happen if nobody is buying the hardware", so good sales and good games aren't mutually exclusive, it just introduces a more subjective element. Though I also think when people make that argument they are sometimes, but not always, talking about the system managing to get titles that will drive hardware sales. Which is a separate issue from what you personally enjoy playing.
 
As some have already said, the problem with Vita isn't the tech, it's that most consumers don't want console quality games on the go. People want quick distractions while they wait at the doctor's office, take a bus ride, wait for class to start, etc, and big long 'core' experiences don't fit that. And what good is it to play the Vita games at home when those same games can be done on the PS3 with a nice home theater setup.

If Sony wants to sell Vitas they need to start investing in games that can be picked up for quick plays and releasing apps that go beyond gaming to convince consumers that they NEED to take this thing everywhere they go.

That would make sense except there are already mini's, PS1, PSP, and a bunch of casual titles already for the handheld. The fact that there are console like experiences doesn't make the other stuff disappear. So obviously that cannot be a possible reason. I don't even need to talk about the apps do I?

While I don't really subscribe to the idea that Sony will pull the plug on the Vita, it is important to make the distinction that unlike the PSP and PS3 its sales are demonstrably worse.

And one can be concerned about that in the sense of "I want this system to garner more developer support, which isn't going to happen if nobody is buying the hardware", so good sales and good games aren't mutually exclusive, it just introduces a more subjective element. Though I also think when people make that argument they are sometimes, but not always, talking about the system managing to get titles that will drive hardware sales. Which is a separate issue from what you personally enjoy playing.


Yes but you must remember the attitude at the time. The doom surrounding the PSP and PS3 were about the losses Sony as a whole kept incurring and despite how the sales look in hindsight, at the time the doom and gloom surrounded them because of comparisons to competitors.
 
As some have already said, the problem with Vita isn't the tech, it's that most consumers don't want console quality games on the go. People want quick distractions while they wait at the doctor's office, take a bus ride, wait for class to start, etc, and big long 'core' experiences don't fit that. And what good is it to play the Vita games at home when those same games can be done on the PS3 with a nice home theater setup.

If Sony wants to sell Vitas they need to start investing in games that can be picked up for quick plays and releasing apps that go beyond gaming to convince consumers that they NEED to take this thing everywhere they go.

Is that why the 3DS is selling? I think it's not...
 
Yeah, and I'm saying, it was mis-designed from jump. While I don't think they should kill it, I think it'll have a hard time finding success unless consumer preference changes. Most people don't want console quality games on the go. Why? Because Vita is probably most often played at home, where... people have their consoles. Plus, people want all in one devices, so they prefer to game on their phones rather carry around yet another device.

In order to succeed, Vita needs to give consumers something that they simply can't get anywhere else. Right now, that's just not the case.

What people who usually don't own vitas don't realise is that because the tech is so nice and also convenient it makes playing any game on it more worthwhile, honestly - especially for the busier/more occupied gamer. I'd rather play anything on the vita. If it can be made for the vita, 9/10 I'd prefer to play it on the handheld. Have a PS3/PC err wii..ds, psp, old stuff etc.
 
Which brings the point that Sony has never given up on a console and there is no reason to believe they will. If a person is concerned about the sales of the system instead of finding a game they would like then they are only contributing to the issue.


There was negativity about the PSP, there was negativity surrounding the PS3, there is negativity surrounding the Vita. I doubt this will change Sony's behavior because they stuck to their guns and worked on the libraries.



They are weaker entries. It is a handheld. Why one earth would you expect something better?

AC:L though is pretty fun so far. Every franchise I have put my hands on, that has a "big boy" home edition, has been great with the exception of resistance. COD looks like it will be a mess but I am not trying to judge it before the reviewers have thier say. I do not have any high hopes for it though.

See this I don't get though. Your right that Sony didn't give up on the PS3, but what about the PSP outside of Japan? After about three years there was little initiative on Sonys end to keep that thing alive. If it weren't For its success in Japan, the US wouldn't have seen all those localizations. That basically kept it alive and active in a niche community, along with home brew, western support all but dried up once hardware sales tanked. I'd argue there's hard evidence that Sony has dropped support on their hardware before, specifically with Vitas predecessor.
 
So, how would people take to it moving to a contract model?
$99 up front plus an undertaking to subscribe to PSN+ for 24/36 months.

Idea's been tossed around for the next gen platforms, why not Vita? Obviously Sony need tp get Plus up and running for Vita first, but after that, why not?

Throw in a memory card and you might have something there... Sony could move Vita's and bolster it's online community.
 
"Console type" in terms of scope is fine. So long as it's an original, new effort. "Console type" handheld version of a game that already exists on consoles is a no deal for me.

Good thing you aren't forced to buy them. But there is a significant portion of us that enjoy those games. God of War: Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta were no less God of War games than their console counterparts, and they were PSP games. Nothing felt gimped or reduced (Chains of Olympus was kind of short, but Ghost of Sparta was lengthy, and overall, the better game; it was also their second go at a portable God of War). I would frigging love for there to be another God of War, specifically tailored for the Vita. That would be a "must buy" for me.

I think LBP, Uncharted, and AC3: Lib are excellent additions to their respective franchises. I don't know if it's this kind of dissonance because, for generations, handheld games simply couldn't come remotely close to what a console could do, but now we have Uncharted and Assassin's Creed on a handheld device, and it looks and feels like Uncharted and Assassin's Creed. It doesn't feel like a stripped down, gimped version of the series, and a lot of that is attributed to the second analog stick. As hardcore gamers, we are accustomed to playing games with a second analog stick. One of my biggest gripes with the original PSP is that, while I enjoyed the games, they weren't that fun to play, because I was often battling with a camera more than I was playing the game.

A good example of what the Vita has done for me is playing Monster Hunter Freedom Unite on the Vita. Being able to control the camera with the second analog stick is a fricking godsend. It's like playing a totally different game.

Playing Uncharted and AC3, and being able to aim and shoot, or rotate the camera like you do in a console game makes playing games on the Vita feel significantly different than playing on any other portable device that doesn't have a second analog stick. It feels natural and at home. Most of the time, I forget that I'm playing a portable game at all, but that can be said for any portable gaming experience that sucks you in.

I've had to rearrange my thinking about what constitutes a "true" portable game, and a "true" console game, since I've got the Vita. I keep my expectations in check, of course (the Vita is not a PS3, nor as powerful as one), but I don't go into a game on the Vita thinking that it will have the same shortcomings as the PSP version.

The AC: Lib thread was full of people that were convinced the game would be as poor as Bloodlines, when the biggest problem of Bloodlines was the limited hardware of the PSP (horsepower, analog sticks, other input methods). I don't look at the Vita the same way I looked at the PSP. I don't expect "console port" to have the same results on a Vita as it did on the PSP. Games like Uncharted and LBP, and AC: Lib are great year one titles, because they feel like they are the developer's attempts to show that the Vita just isn't a PSP redux. You can expect an impressive level of quality and functionality, thanks to the sticks, the touchscreen, the back touchscreen, and the horsepower.

I loved the PSP, but it was a horrendously flawed console when it came to hardware design. The Vita rectified those flaws. It is not a perfect handheld, but the potential for excellent games has already been showcased in year one (LBP Vita is probably my favorite Vita game of this year, and I feel it's the best representation of what this machine can do).

It's up to Sony to market the thing, but the device itself is sound. I don't know what Sony plans to do, but looking at the history of their previous consoles, it seems like they're using the same strategy. Bundles this year, price cut next year, more software next year. Every single PlayStation console/handheld has done this. What makes any of you think that the Vita strategy will be any different? You can literally look at the marketing and price cut strategies of 4 other PlayStation products, and it's the exact same thing with each and every one of them.

If the Vita is an enthusiast gamer's device, and enthusiast gamers look to be the same now as they were when I was a boy growing up on NES in the 80's, what would it matter if the mobile phone market has entered the fray? Enthusiast gamers will eventually pick up a Vita, like they may pick up a 3DS. They may have chosen one over the other first, but I imagine that they'll snag the other one when it seems like time to do so.

Not even 12 months old, yet, and people are ready to call in the undertaker on the Vita. I just don't get that kind of thinking, honestly, especially when the first year of a console's life can be the hardest. It'll be interesting to see where the Vita stands this time next year, in my opinion.
 
See this I don't get though. Your right that Sony didn't give up on the PS3, but what about the PSP outside of Japan? After about three years there was little initiative on Sonys end to keep that thing alive. If it weren't For its success in Japan, the US wouldn't have seen all those localizations. That basically kept it alive and active in a niche community, along with home brew, western support all but dried up once hardware sales tanked. I'd argue there's hard evidence that Sony has dropped support on their hardware before, specifically with Vitas predecessor.

Sony supported the PSP with first party support all through out the PSP's life. I would point out that you are incorrect given the first and second party titles released. You cannot hold Sony to the actions and general business decisions of third party pubs. Even as such "homebrew" never helped. Remember game sales is what help a console achieve success so purchasing the hardware, then never purchasing games afterward is a detriment not a helping hand.
 
The thing that's weird to me is that the Vita is a gamer's device. It didn't cut corners, it has great power, an amazing screen, twin sticks, touch screens, tilt, cameras. It has a wonderful library filled with games that hardcore gamers like (but I agree it lacks something with mass appeal - but why do we care about mass appeal?).


The thing is everything that the 3DS and iPhone are not. Yet people here, who are supposed to be into games, get completely caught up in the sales of the thing. Did low sales make the dreamcast a crap console? That thing was one of the best consoles I ever owned - just because the mass market doesn't like something doesn't make it bad. In fact, judging by most other forms of media, it usually means its good. The music, movies, TV and books that sell the most are usually the most worthless.


Pet peeve. Got it out. I feel better now.

Low sales made the Dreamcast a dead console. That's the whole fucking point. I've seen you post before, and you seem like a smart guy. I would expect you to understand that sales leads to more development which leads to more sales...etc. It's not an insignificant trifle that isn't worth discussion. It's the whole fucking enchilada.

Sell or go home.
 
I don't want Angry Birds mobile type bullshit, or quirky low budget gimicky games that use the backtouch and gyroscope or stuff like that on my Vita. I want big, complex, console quality games on it. Because big, complex, console quality games are more fun. A lot more fun. All developers need to do to make console-like games work on the Vita is let you save anywhere at any time. The Vita is a powerful system. Take full advantage of that power.

most AAA console style games are the opposite of fun. AC:L is the worst vita game I've played so far and the one that tries the hardest to be like a "serious" console game.
 
They are weaker entries. It is a handheld. Why one earth would you expect something better?

You see, an issue arises when you automatically assert the notion that a handheld entry is a weaker entry than a console title. Mario games don't have that same level of disparity between console and handheld titles, as well as there being PSP games on par with their console brethren (Kingdom Hearts BBS), or even going beyond that (FF Type-0). The problem with the games I cited earlier being weaker entries has to do very well with the idea that if it's just similar to a console title in the same franchise, that's all that should be done. No, it should be designed to take advantage of being on a portable and aim to stand out as a good entry on par with other titles, even console counterparts. Nintendo has a track record of doing this very well with Mario and Zelda, but Sony, and many third parties, have a very poor habit of quality control, and it's happened often enough that if I hear of a franchise coming to a portable system that hasn't done so before, it will be done with very poor results.

How many portable games has Sony put out that are from a console franchise but have core staff or even the original development studio working on it?
 
Sony supported the PSP with first party support all through out the PSP's life. I would point out that you are incorrect given the first and second party titles released. You cannot hold Sony to the actions and general business decisions of third party pubs. Even as such "homebrew" never helped. Remember game sales is what help a console achieve success so purchasing the hardware, then never purchasing games afterward is a detriment not a helping hand.

When was the last time Sony released a first party title on the PSP? I honestly cannot even remember the last time it got a second party title.

most AAA console style games are the opposite of fun. AC:L is the worst vita game I've played so far and the one that tries the hardest to be like a "serious" console game.

I'm just thinking its a lack of effort. The western 3rd party companies aren't putting in the same amount of effort they do in their console games and a lot of Sony's franchises are being handed off to companies that aren't exactly as good. Handhelds have to rely on Japanese titles because they tend to be the ones that get a companies full effort.
 
"Must buy" is an excruciatingly subjective term.

For me, Alan Wake was a "must buy."

inFAMOUS 2 was a "must buy."

Gravity Rush was a "must buy."

LBP Vita was a "must buy."

"Must buy" will mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. What is must buy for Nintendo fans may not be a must buy for PlayStation fans. I don't buy Nintendo platforms because of Super Mario Bros. As I said in an earlier post, I bought a Gamecube for Animal Crossing. Eternal Darkness as well. Metroid Prime, Smash Bros Melee, and Windwaker were icing on the cake.

I bought a Vita for Uncharted, LBP, and Gravity Rush, primarily. Others bought it for other games.

One of the things that I always thought was great of Sony was to have a diverse library of titles that catered to a broad range of gamers. I'm not that big into puzzle games (I like them, but I'm not buying a Vita for Lumines and Plants vs Zombies), but I love action/adventure games and RPGs. The Vita has a few standout action adventure games, and its RPG library is growing as well.

I just think that "must buy" is too subjective to make declarative statements about. There may well be that one game that sends people into a buying frenzy for the Vita, but who knows what that game will be. I prefer to have the wide range of titles to choose from, than the one title to rule them all, and get sales. It seems like most of the quality Vita titles have had some measure of success on the platform, even if they are not lighting up sales charts.
Well, is clear that Vita games aren't must buy for the bulk of the market.

Not even 12 months old, yet, and people are ready to call in the undertaker on the Vita. I just don't get that kind of thinking, honestly, especially when the first year of a console's life can be the hardest. It'll be interesting to see where the Vita stands this time next year, in my opinion.

You are a third party. Why would you develop a Vita game?
 
Ok for those who think Vita isn't done yet, what future support coming out next year makes you think it has a chance? More specifically let's talk about the west here. Hell what 3rd party games that haven't come to the west already even have a shot for next year? Because no matter how I seem to look at the upcoming support, it's miserable from everyone besides Sony.
 
Sony supported the PSP with first party support all through out the PSP's life. I would point out that you are incorrect given the first and second party titles released. You cannot hold Sony to the actions and general business decisions of third party pubs. Even as such "homebrew" never helped. Remember game sales is what help a console achieve success so purchasing the hardware, then never purchasing games afterward is a detriment not a helping hand.
I still remember in 2009, how Rock Band, SoulCalibur, Gran Turismo, Jak & Daxter, LittleBigPlanet, Assassin's Creed, Motorstorm, Tekken all launched the same year, months between each other, with the third-parties been games that Sony pursued and helped to release; along new colors, bundles and even a rebranding of the logo/boxarts in the US. Yet, people were saying that it was dead and getting no support.
 
Yet, people were saying that it was dead and getting no suppor

And those people were dumb although all of that did nothing to reignite sales and even then the PSP was doing quadruple at a minimum what Vita does monthly. How is the PSP situation even remotely comparable when PSP was doing gangbusters in Japan?
 
I still remember in 2009, how Rock Band, SoulCalibur, Gran Turismo, Jak & Daxter, LittleBigPlanet, Assassin's Creed, Motorstorm, Tekken all launched the same year, months between each other, with the third-parties been games that Sony pursued and helped to release; along new colors, bundles and even a rebranding of the logo/boxarts in the US. Yet, people were saying that it was dead and getting no support.

That was the big push for the PSP GO launch. The support dried back up when the system tanked.
 
I still remember in 2009, how Rock Band, SoulCalibur, Gran Turismo, Jak & Daxter, LittleBigPlanet, Assassin's Creed, Motorstorm, Tekken all launched the same year, months between each other, with the third-parties been games that Sony pursued and helped to release; along new colors, bundles and even a rebranding of the logo/boxarts in the US. Yet, people were saying that it was dead and getting no support.

I remember that. Sony made it clear at E3 the PSP wasn't dead. We were supposed to get a Resident Evil, but whatever. 2010 brought on Socom FTB 3 and Modnation Racers. Sony should had done this for the PSP every year, not forget about in 2006, 2007, and 2008.
 
Sony supported the PSP with first party support all through out the PSP's life. I would point out that you are incorrect given the first and second party titles released. You cannot hold Sony to the actions and general business decisions of third party pubs. Even as such "homebrew" never helped. Remember game sales is what help a console achieve success so purchasing the hardware, then never purchasing games afterward is a detriment not a helping hand.

Home brew can help people stay interested in a system. Sony can release games all they want but if no ones buying them its not doing any good for the platform either. There were games, yes, but again I'd argue that very few were actual attempts to cater to western gamers outside of the niche hardcore the system had carved out for itself. Or let alone expand the userbase. PSP was fortunate enough to survive on the basis that it did exceptionally well in one territory of the world. Sega Saturn was in a similar boat in that it performed well and maintained quality support through its lifetime in Japan thanks to solid sales. And Sega was able to actually financially support it. However Dreamcast came along, just like the Vita, and tanked everywhere and we all know the end to that sad story.
 
Very little of what's said about the Vita is complaining about the quality of the hardware, though. It's generally regarded as a very nice piece of tech. The library is extremely divisive, in that for a lot of hardcore gamers it's not as wonderful as you think, or at least not uniquely wonderful enough to motivate a system purchase. For some people it's must-have after must-have, while for some a large chunk of the library feels photocopied from consoles creating a lineup that feels familiar and diminished to them.

The low sales didn't make the Dreamcast crap, anymore than low sales make the Vita crap. Low sales did make the Dreamcast a failure as a product, in much the way the low sales are shaping up to do the same for Vita. And for those not impressed with the current Vita library (which is totally possible without having an anti-Vita agenda), the missing mass market appeal is a big deal. Not because the Vita selling has any relation to the quality of the hardware, but because it is going to directly influence what you'll be able to play on the future going forward. The Dreamcast is remembered fondly for its library, not because of the tech crammed inside it. There will be people who would look back on the Vita fondly if no games beyond those already announced ever came out for it, but if the lineup right now doesn't impress the current performance does nothing to indicate it will expand substantially.

Sales are totally irrelevant to anyone currently in a torrid love affair with their Vita; I get that, and I think most people posting in sales threads get that. But for the people who aren't yet on-board? Sales matter because of what it means for the future, and Sony's action/inaction to spur further sales is important because it indicates how committed the manufacturer is to actually turning the tech into something many people want to buy. So it's the people who actually do have some interest in the hardware who are most likely to be critical of sales and Sony's response--either convince them to buy, or just admit it's dead, basically.

Nailed it in pretty much every respect.
 
Read these:
*Pokes head into thread*

Yep!

**Walks backward out**

**Goes back to playing his Vita earning Platinums**

WOOOOO ANOTHER HATE TRAIN THREAD TIME TO HOP ON BOARD FELLAS!

Meanwhile I'm being buried by Vita games. I literally have too many to play.
Then this:
Which ports are you playing son

iDgVrUIM8PyxF.png
Holy crap im dying here!!! Lmfao!!
 
Ok for those who think Vita isn't done yet, what future support coming out next year makes you think it has a chance? More specifically let's talk about the west here. Hell what 3rd party games that haven't come to the west already even have a shot for next year? Because no matter how I seem to look at the upcoming support, it's miserable from everyone besides Sony.

Most of us who think Vita isn't done yet are rational and realize that Sony aren't going to abandon their major portable a year after it's out. About games, we already know they aren't selling well, so we'd rather focus on the quality of the games than their sales potential. If Vita games are selling better, awesome, but that's not really on our minds.

It's mostly the people who don't own/often use a Vita who seem the most gravely concerned.

Like what ryan davis said in that QFT episode.


Name 5 games that are Must Buys (which is different from Must Plays).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=WL6AB0C3E9C934EDE3&feature=player_detailpage&v=6h9rNzcI5g4#t=1210s

video is a few months old, but it's still relevant imo.

Come on man, are you serious? He was pushing the guy on the spot. I'm sure he could have thought of enough had Ryan not been using bully-tactics on him. I know I could have. Not to mention, NOBODY could name five MUST-BUYS for any system 6 months after it's launch.
 
Problem is that those type of games probably won't help the system increase its sales.

That's not really my problem though. If Sony can make these garbage ios type games that everyone says everyone wants but do it without sacrificing legitimate games that interest me then go for it. But if they can't do both then I'll take as many games as I can get before the system rides off into the sunset, because the system thriving but getting nothing but ios shit doesn't do anything for me.
 
Definitely glad to hear its getting a sequel. I get that sports/FPS and "grown up" games have taken center-stage on home consoles. I've swallowed that bitter pill. I would like to think that stuff like Gravity Rush/VLR/Tearaway/JRPGs/etc. would thrive more than stuff like Resistance on handhelds though. Developers would have more incentive to make more games like these, which is what I want outta Vita.



Which is just fine. So long as Vita's idea of a diverse library is not stuff like Uncharted/Resistance and cell phone games.

Perhaps, but who's to say that those games aren't coming? I know people put a lot of stock on press conferences, but I was at E3 this year, and I came away incredibly impressed by all I seen and played on the Vita. A press conference is nice an all for getting cool montages and maybe some surprise announcements, but they don't do it for me like they used to.

Also, wasn't Sony always getting lambasted for showing off games too early, like GT5 and The Last Guardian? I've noticed that they've taken to revealing/announcing games 6-12 months before release. Chances are, we won't be hearing more about the next wave of Vita games until the Games Development Conference early next year (is that the one that's in the early part of the year? I can't remember).

PlayStation All Stars wasn't announced until April of this year, just 6 months before launch. I kind of prefer this to an agonizing year to two year wait. We're still waiting for FF Versus XIII from Square-Enix.

The Vita's library is already diverse. I can't see why that would suddenly change. There are console experiences, and bite sized experiences. I remember reading this same fear with the PSP, and that system ultimately had one of the best handheld gaming lineups of the last 5 or 6 years, especially if you are a fan of JRPGs, and quirky games.

Perhaps SCEJ, who has been getting a lot of shit this gen for not releasing titles, have moved on to work on just smaller Vita titles? Sony has the most development studios out of the entire industry. Media Molecule and Guerrilla Games are working on Vita titles, and that's just what we've been shown, they tend to have more than one title under development at a time.

I feel kind of bad that handheld game developers are viewed as being somehow "lesser" than console game developers.

SCE Bend rocked it with the PSP Syphon Filter games, and their first Vita game, Uncharted: Golden Abyss, was excellent, and this is coming from a huge Uncharted fan, who's scrutinized the hell out of UC: GA. I can't wait to see what they do with a sequel, or maybe even Syphon Filter: Vita.

Just because they develop for handhelds doesn't make them inferior. They are simply working on portable titles, and the quality of those titles shows. I wish Liverpool was still around, because wipEout 2048 was awesome, and I played the hell out of that game for months. I'm not even a diehard wipEout fan, but that game, and wipEout HD sucked me in so bad.

I just don't get how some of the handheld developers that make DS or 3DS games get lots of respect and praise, but if you are making handheld games on the PSP or Vita, you're somehow just a console developer that couldn't be arsed to develop console games. Maybe, just maybe, they have a genuine knack or love of making portable titles? Maybe they like the limitations that portables often provide, and enjoy the challenge of overcoming those limitations, or pushing them?

As I mentioned before, God of War: Ghost of Sparta was fucking fantastic. I couldn't believe my PSP was capable of such an experience, and not just graphically (although that was certainly a part of it). Gameplay wise, I enjoy Ghost of Sparta more than God of War 3, and I loved God of War 3.
 
Yes but you must remember the attitude at the time. The doom surrounding the PSP and PS3 were about the losses Sony as a whole kept incurring and despite how the sales look in hindsight, at the time the doom and gloom surrounded them because of comparisons to competitors.

PSP and PS3 had vastly better third-party support (in sales terms) announced/available even just a few months after launch. There is no precedent for a Sony platform having such poor support, and that's (IMO) an even bigger reason than sales for why I expect the plug to be definitively pulled no later than spring 2014.
 
The Dreamcast had an amazing library of arcade perfect ports and rock solid first party support (Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 excluded). That one was on us.

Certainly not. It's not the consumers' job to keep a platform afloat, it's the company's job to continually offer compelling software that a wide variety of people want to buy. If people don't buy it, it's because they either didn't want it or didn't know about it. Developers making things people don't want is not the consumers' fault. Not knowing about stuff that's available also is not the consumers' fault.
 
I kinda see what people are saying. The problem is the game that the Vita has could be played on the home consoles. To add insult to injury, those games really weren't that great to begin with. But then you have to look at the angle of being able to play console games on the go. So which is it? Games that you can't experience anywhere else or true mobile gaming? The answer is clear. We already have console games on the go on the Vita so it's the latter. It's not about touch screens or gyros, it's about really good unique games. Games like Tear-away. We don't have that kind of game on consoles. What it needs are games that aren't attached to anything else but the Vita and that will use the Vita's features(Near, Back-Touch, Power).
 
You are a third party. Why would you develop a Vita game?

because depending on type of game then games can and do do well enough on the Vita?

Going to 3DS or iOS doesn't guarantee extra sales success across the board - certain players are going to be receptive to certain gaming experiences and they may only exist in similar numbers on other platforms.

Case in point : Would Persona 4 have sold any better had it been elsewhere? Number looks about right for that game/franchise.

Certainly not. It's not the consumers' job to keep a platform afloat, it's the company's job to continually offer compelling software that a wide variety of people want to buy. If people don't buy it, it's because they either didn't want it or didn't know about it. Developers making things people don't want is not the consumers' fault. Not knowing about stuff that's available also is not the consumers' fault.

which, interestingly, is why it's funny when people bitch about iOS. The people have spoken and chosen. :P
 
PSP and PS3 had vastly better third-party support (in sales terms) announced/available even just a few months after launch. There is no precedent for a Sony platform having such poor support, and that's (IMO) an even bigger reason than sales for why I expect the plug to be definitively pulled no later than spring 2014.

No disrespect to you but you haven't a clue. When sale tanked for the PSP, they could of just pulled the plug then. Instead, they paid for help from SE, CAPCOM, and all the other Japanese DEVs as well as several re-boots and 1st Party support.
 
PSP and PS3 had vastly better third-party support (in sales terms) announced/available even just a few months after launch. There is no precedent for a Sony platform having such poor support, and that's (IMO) an even bigger reason than sales for why I expect the plug to be definitively pulled no later than spring 2014.

The PS3 had third party support in 2007? All I remember is the hype surround Haze, in hopes it would be the killer app for the PS3.
 
Wow. For awhile I was always mad at people who would say "I don't want console style games on a handheld," because "console style" didn't mean anything to me. NSMB is "console style," after all the exact same game came out for Wii and will be coming out again for Wii U. Yet NSMB is a system seller for the 3DS.

This new sentiment from a lot of people (at least it's the first I've heard it), that they want the Vita to be the home of "B" grade gaming experiences, the experimental stuff, makes sense. As opposed to AAA ultra-conservative FPSes and focus-grouped action games that provide absolutely no challenge as the developer is putting their entire company on the line, handhelds do seem to give a space for a lower risk and lower reward, that lets developers experiment more. I am also missing those kinds of games, and I would be very happy and pick up a Vita if more publishers made that their target.

But would that alone really create a market space for the Vita? These B-grade developers have mostly been absorbed into larger companies or have shed workers and focused on phone games, right? So there aren't that many companies around even in a position to provide the Vita with a B level game. And even if any developers are still interested in making B-grade games, I don't think there is a large enough fan base that will let them do it only for Vita.
 
Just because they develop for handhelds doesn't make them inferior. They are simply working on portable titles, and the quality of those titles shows. I wish Liverpool was still around, because wipEout 2048 was awesome, and I played the hell out of that game for months. I'm not even a diehard wipEout fan, but that game, and wipEout HD sucked me in so bad.

I just don't get how some of the handheld developers that make DS or 3DS games get lots of respect and praise, but if you are making handheld games on the PSP or Vita, you're somehow just a console developer that couldn't be arsed to develop console games. Maybe, just maybe, they have a genuine knack or love of making portable titles? Maybe they like the limitations that portables often provide, and enjoy the challenge of overcoming those limitations, or pushing them?

This may very well be the corperate culture at Sony. Even some of Sony's own devs like Naughty Dog kinda took an "Eww... Vita" approach when asked about why they didn't make Golden Abyss.

Meanwhile, no one would accuse EAD Tokyo of being a second tier dev, and they made Mario 3D Land.

One thing that would bolster confidence in the Vita would be to see Sony's best console devs working on portable titles, but they recently closed their best gameplay-focused studio, Studio Liverpool, that also just happened to make both portable and console games.
 
So, how would people take to it moving to a contract model?
$99 up front plus an undertaking to subscribe to PSN+ for 24/36 months.

Idea's been tossed around for the next gen platforms, why not Vita? Obviously Sony need tp get Plus up and running for Vita first, but after that, why not?

Maybe for SCEE but the way SCEA treats PS+. No thanks.
 
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