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[Durante]

I was at a MS event last week and basically while absolutely nothing is official the general feeling floating around is they may try to only include the desktop on the pro edition of the next Windows. This will ensure corporations will say absolutely nothing while still locking up the non-biz marketplace. Non-biz users will be pushed towards office 365, which only requires a browser to run, or even an app version of it.

This is me being not very happy about being right.

Really guys? You didn't see that one coming from a mile away?.

There are in fact lots of posters who seemed utterly convinced that everyone with concerns is a "chicken little" spreading "FUD" while wearing a tinfoil hat. It's not like MS has the motivation (30%!) and means (desktop dominance) to do it, as well as a history that shows that they are not at all above using anti-competitive means to further their corporate goals.

It's not against win8 as it is, but what it foreshadows: sure, the desktop is there, but the very architecture of the thing has opened the door for it not being there in win9 if Metro takes off. It's not just a worst-case supposition, every Microsoft dev event is geared towards that direction. They're pushing Office and even the dev tools towards the cloud, the business products like SharePoint are turning towards more app-like models, XNA is unofficially considered dead for game prototyping because it can't run on Metro, they've tried to make the newer Visual Studio Express only able to compile Metro apps (and only went back because devs complained) and so on.

The core of their current message to devs is how easy it is to switch and not look back, and how portable it is: a metro app will run pretty much the same on desktop and mobile, and nobody's missing the obvious underlying message, that the next console will run Metro apps all the same and so you'll get free console-to-PC conversions, no need to port to the Win desktop.

And it *is* a wonderful, very functional thing. I'd switch to Metro any day if it weren't for the closed marketplace, where I can't just put up software for download with a PayPal link, but where I need a MS-approved account, a MS credit check, MS-dictated price range for selling MS-approved software on which MS will perceive a 30% cut. But they've definitely put the framework together for it to happen, all they need to do is switch off the legacy desktop, something they can perfectly do as soon as it's not a commercial danger to them.

Great summary.

Of all the things that people complain about Win 8, justified or not, why do they hinge on this?

Because the future hinges on this. What the UI looks like is utterly inconsequential in comparison.

 

[The Albatross]

Every Windows 8 decision has baffled me. And I was all aboard the Windows 8 express, until I actually installed it.

The biggest baffling decision for me, though, is how IE10 runs in 2 distinct modes and both of them report as being the same user agent, even though one of them supports nothing and the other one supports everything. This decision is so befuddling and so frustrating for any web developer, I have no clue why Microsoft chose to do that.

 

[Dicer]

Wiping my windows drive and installing Mint as we speak, feels good man...

 

[JustinBB7]

Gabe was right.

.

WE DIDN'T LISTEN!

(well we did, not gonna get that shit ever.)

 

[xenist]

Please lay down the path in which this is going to happen.

1. Make DX11.1 exclusive to win 8.
2. XBOX 720 uses DX11.1
3. All crossplatform games must be on Win 8.
4. Make DX11.1 exclusive to Metro.
5. Metro storefront is required to install all software to win 8.

Here. Speaking about games at least. I'm quite certain this is not too far from some MS internal document. Anyone not expecting MS to at least try it does not know what motivates corporations.

 

[SniperHunter]

good luck with that Microsoft.

 

[aeolist]

Frankly at this point it'll almost be worth it when MS limits desktop support to enterprise versions of Windows in the future just to see everyone who's talking about conspiracy theories right now eat crow

 

[xptoxyz]

I thought this had been know for a while.

And I don't see why people expected anything different, I think all of the last iterations only ever came out on the newest version of the OS.

 

[KojiKnight]

Please lay down the path in which this is going to happen.

1. Make DX11.1 exclusive to win 8.
2. ?????
3. ?????
4. Metro storefront is required to install all software to win 8.

Even Apple with their app store doesn't require developers to use their storefront to install software in OSX. That is, if something changed since i sold my macbook. I will admit to be wrong if this is the issue. But AFAIK you can just download the DMG, unpack and runs application on Mac OSX.

There's no precedent for this.

Of all the things that people complain about Win 8, justified or not, why do they hinge on this?

1. Make all future DX Windows 8 and later exclusives (gets the users onto Win 8 who have the latest hardware and want the most out of it onto the OS with metro)

2. Release major Microsoft license as Metro only (see Halo/Gears/etc). (this makes people get onto metro since metro apps don't appear in the windows desktop, the hardcore will already be on Win 8 because of step 1 so there won't be too much backlash just making them use metro)

3. Remove the desktop from windows 9. As windows 8 is a 'vista' release, 9 will likely be out in just 2 years or so. (with the desktop gone, so too goes your ability to install games outside metro, effectively locking down the garden).

4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 on Win 9 (new exclusive DX version and a new game that uses it, forcing the hardcore to buy a new OS again to take advantage of their software, and a game with which they can only get on metro to do it). Also, added insult to injury will be dropping support for Vista and Win 7. Once the hardcore are on board, exclusives will continue to push PC gamers onto win9 and the closed garden. Regular PC users aren't likely to get a shit either way and usually only upgrade when they go to buy a new computer so they'll have it forced on them either way.

 

[aeolist]

I thought this had been know for a while.

And I don't see why people expected anything different, I think all of the last iterations only ever came out on the newest version of the OS.

DirectX 11 runs on Vista

 

[phosphor112]

Still on XP.

Fuck the haters.

 

[Takamura-San]

Here. Speaking about games at least. I'm quite certain this is not too far from some MS internal document. Anyone not expecting MS to at least try it does not know what motivates corporations.

Even if this were to happen, which I see unlikely, Devs can still use DX11 outside of metro.

the Windows store is just a new skin for the games for windows market place.

 

[beje]

Ok, so all of you already know what's the best way of telling MS we won't put up with this shit, right? Yes, that's it. Not upgrading to Windows 8 and asking for a downgrade to 7 in pre-built systems. Worked for Vista, should work this time too.

 

[Damon Bennet]

OMG NO WINDOWS 8 PIECE OF SHIT
FORCE THAT METRO SHIT DOWN MY THROAT

 

[zephervack]

Cant wait for Gabe to figure out PC gaming on Linux, I know they wont get all the back catalog working but the sooner we have a viable alternative the better.

Microsoft can do whatever the hell they want with PC games since they have pretty much a monopoly over it.

 

[plagiarize]

1. Make all future DX Windows 8 and later exclusives (gets the users onto Win 8 who have the latest hardware and want the most out of it onto the OS with metro)

2. Release major Microsoft license as Metro only (see Halo/Gears/etc). (this makes people get onto metro since metro apps don't appear in the windows desktop, the hardcore will already be on Win 8 because of step 1 so there won't be too much backlash just making them use metro)

3. Remove the desktop from windows 9. As windows 8 is a 'vista' release, 9 will likely be out in just 2 years or so. (with the desktop gone, so too goes your ability to install games outside metro, effectively locking down the garden).

4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 on Win 9 (new exclusive DX version and a new game that uses it, forcing the hardcore to buy a new OS again to take advantage of their software, and a game with which they can only get on metro to do it). Also, added insult to injury will be dropping support for Vista and Win 7. Once the hardcore are on board, exclusives will continue to push PC gamers onto win9 and the closed garden. Regular PC users aren't likely to get a shit either way and usually only upgrade when they go to buy a new computer so they'll have it forced on them either way.

you're missing some steps that would have to happen. the requirements for a metro game would have to be completely rewritten since currently everything a metro game has to be prevents a AAA style title from being released on Metro.

these same steps failed to get people onto Vista, and they certainly failed to get developers to drop support for XP. only an OS which has been widely embraced, rather than just forced on people by it coming preinstalled, has driven developers to start ignoring XP.

right now a metro game cannot compete with a desktop game. Microsoft want stuff in Metro to 'just work' on just about every level of hardware. they want the games to be relatively small and quick to install and load. they want Metro to be completely consumer friendly for people.

the kinds of PC games we play on steam don't fit into what Microsoft have built Metro to be, and what I'm pretty confident they WANT it to be, which is the idiot proof side of windows. between gamers and businesses and programming enthusiasts and so on, there's going to be a call for desktop support. Metro would have to be drastically changed to be the one OS to fit all. this split model of a safe sandbox and an open desktop is a really good one size fits all model, and seems to me to be more of what Microsoft want than trying to force everyone into the sandbox.

again, i'm sure they'd love it if you had to exclusively buy software from their store, like on Win RT... but I really don't see a path in which they can force developers on board with that plan, let alone consumers.

 

[Corky]

Welp, guess I'm going to live without the .1 effects.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I still work as an IT contractor for companies that are still on XP. Many of them plan to migrate very soon.

Windows 8 is not going to be choice of OS.

It seems like MS is marketing Windows 8 to the Apple crowd, they love crap like this. So it might work.

My work just upgraded our XP towers to 7 towers.

8 isn't going to be seen in the workplace on towers. It's MS's grab at the tablet business sector as they move to tablet computing device. They're trying to grow their servers, tools, and especially unified communications businesses... plus they don't want to end up with someone like IBM coming out with an enterprise-centered tablet OS that ends up in doctors offices, restaurants, etc.

 

[Dyno]

Yeah it's pure dickery.

 

[Maxrunner]

When does ubuntu steam releases again? HL3 open gl only confirmed...

 

[strata8]

The biggest baffling decision for me, though, is how IE10 runs in 2 distinct modes and both of them report as being the same user agent, even though one of them supports nothing and the other one supports everything.

Uh, explain?

 

[faridmon]

Yeah, people will get angry on something so small. It is not even DX12 and most games will optmise for the existing DX11. NO need to get angry on this minor update. Msoft will realise it is stupid anyway, and will release their subsequent release on both OS.

 

[xelios]

Not buying Windows 8, especially with them pulling shit like this in addition to the issues I already have with the OS. This just makes me want to stick with 7 out of spite until I see where this goes and whether 9 is a disaster for everyone or a lesson learned.

 

[beje]

Uh, explain?

If you boot IE10 from Metro, you're stuck with a full screen app with barebones functionality in terms of extensions, plugins, access to the file system and such. If you boot it from the Desktop, you get the "whole" (normal) experience. But both report they're exactly the same browser to websites so debugging might be a nightmare.

 

[dorkimoe]

MS just lost me a customer.

Haha ok.

Not that big of a deal. I plan on picking up 8 but just because its on sale. Won't even install it until it gets a sp1 probably

 

[Shard]

Yea, a minor update isn't moving me to Windows 8, holding out on 7 here till Windows 9.

 

[kuroshiki]

Wow. overreaction here is just... damn. Typical neogaf.

 

[Somnid]

WinRT and Metro mode are essentially parallel to Windows 7. WinRT is a Windows OS built for tablets and ARM processors. The Windows Store provides a standard tablet software experience. Windows 8 proper is a a superset of the two. It has everything Win7 has and everything RT has. That's really all there is to it. There's no conspiracy here, just allowing PC users to have tablet apps and enabling newer form factors.

Direct X 11.1 won't be important anyway and doesn't have any relation to Metro or the Windows Store. What Microsoft really needs now is DirectX mobile for WinRT/WP8.

Uh, explain?

Metro IE10 doesn't support plugins. He should be using plugin detection not user agent sniffing.

 

[Windom Earle]

Won't touch this POS, sorry.

 

[gblues]

Will start worrying when next(-next-)gen consoles are DX11.1 capable.

 

[Reiko]

Will start worrying when next(-next-)gen consoles are DX11.1 capable.

They will be...

 

[Dreams-Visions]

it's fine.

seems they don't really ever care about DX adoption anymore. I suspect most games will still be using DX9 for at least a couple more years anyway. though this guarantees that DX11.x will be underutilized for several years into the future.

They will be...

10 years from now.

 

[McLovin]

I have a feeling windows 7 will be the new Xp... If it isn't already.

 

[Midou]

it's fine.

seems they don't really ever care about DX adoption anymore. I suspect most games will still be using DX9 for at least a couple more years anyway. though this guarantees that DX11.x will be underutilized for several years into the future.



10 years from now.

Yes. Somehow I doubt with all the negative press from several big gaming names, gamers will adopt Windows 8 like they did for Windows 7, not to mention, once again, the amount of people who even have DX11 supported graphics cards.

This will make developers not care, even more.

 

[Des0lar]

Wow. overreaction here is just... damn. Typical neogaf.

Thank you for your great contribution to this thread.

 

[eso76]

I even bought 8 but that thing won't install on my PC for whatever reason.

 

[Metalmurphy]

10 years from now.

Erm... I think you need to keep up with the news. Xbox 720 will be 11.1. PS4 will have it's OpenGL equivalent.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Can't say I'm surprised. Oh well, I wasn't planning to upgrade to Windows 8 anyway. I'll just stick to Win 7 until I see what they're planning to do witn Windows 9.

 

[Blimblim]

WinRT and Metro mode are essentially parallel to Windows 7. WinRT is a Windows OS built for tablets and ARM processors. The Windows Store provides a standard tablet software experience. Windows 8 proper is a a superset of the two. It has everything Win7 has and everything RT has. That's really all there is to it. There's no conspiracy here, just allowing PC users to have tablet apps and enabling newer form factors.

I guess I don't even need to quote your tag...
Anyway, as long as I'm forced to boot into the Metro interface, and have to go through that abomination (on an actual pc that is, on a tablet it's different) to launch some programs, Windows 8 will not be "It has everything Win7 has ".
If Microsoft had given us any choice not to have to deal with Metro in any way if we wanted to, then I'd already have Windows 8 installed I guess. As it is though it will never get on my Windows PC ever.

 

[mrgone]

I have a feeling windows 7 will be the new Xp... If it isn't already.

Naw, it won't be the new XP - XP got three service packs.

 

[Reiko]

Erm... I think you need to keep up with the news. Xbox 720 will be 11.1. PS4 will have it's OpenGL equivalent.

I can see the mountains of salt forming...

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Erm... I think you need to keep up with the news. Xbox 720 will be 11.1. PS4 will have it's OpenGL equivalent.

oh?

 

[Little Old Man]

Halo 4 PC port with DX11.1 features exclusive to W8 confirmed.

 

[cyberheater]

Halo 4 PC port with DX11.1 features exclusive to W8 confirmed.

Where's the buy it button...

 

[Reiko]

oh?

I'm pretty sure MS wants the new Xbox to be fully functional with Direct X 11.1 just like Windows 8. They're not throwing it on the PC just because.

And despite the bitterness... Devs will be exploiting 11.1 next gen on consoles.

If PC gamers want to gloat about getting a better experience on the PC, they had better pony up and get Windows 8 and beyond.

 

[FLAguy954]

What Microsoft should do to ease concerns:
-When a user installs Windows 8+, they get the choice to install the store
-Allow Modern apps to be installed from outside the store
-don't limit outside installation to business versions, make it available to all versions
-reiterate Modern ui, direct 11.1 as ADDITIONAL features to Windows 8 insead of required features.

I'm sure this along with other announcements should easy the concerns of many here.
(I have Windows 8 and I think it is great but I understand the arguments some are making.)

 

[beje]

What Microsoft should do to ease concerns:
-When a user installs Windows 8+, they get the choice to install the store
-Allow Modern apps to be installed from outside the store
-don't limit outside installation to business versions, make it available to all versions
-reiterate Modern ui, direct 11.1 as ADDITIONAL features to Windows 8 insead of required features.

I'm sure this along with other announcements should easy the concerns of many here.
(I have Windows 8 and I think it is great but I understand the arguments some are making.)

Yeah, I wouldn't even be half as worried as I'm now if only Metro apps could be easily side-loaded and Metro could be disabled/hidden in favor of an old-school start menu. If that was the case I would have even upgraded but their intentions are pretty clear at this moment.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I'm pretty sure MS wants the new Xbox to be fully functional with Direct X 11.1 just like Windows 8. They're not throwing it on the PC just because.

And despite the bitterness... Devs will be exploiting 11.1 next gen on consoles.

If PC gamers want to gloat about getting a better experience on the PC, they had better pony up and get Windows 8 and beyond.

I mean, unless consoles are going to support 60fps+ @ above 1080p resolutions, support multiple screens, custom skinning and modding, multiple forms of anti-ailising & af, and a mountain of peripherals...

...PC gamers will have the best experience regardless.

 

[Tallshortman]

And don't fucking say we didn't warn.

lol don't act like there were a few chosen prophets spreading the good word to ignoring masses. MS already mentioned possible DX exclusivity for windows 8. They tried it with Vista and Windows 7 too.

 

[Reiko]

I mean, unless consoles are going to support 60fps+ @ above 1080p resolutions, support multiple screens, multiple forms of anti-ailising & af, and a mountain of peripherals...

...PC gamers will have the best experience regardless.

We don't know what the consoles will do.