Fighting Games Weekly | December 10-16 | The roads are still safe from Justin Wong

I just got home from another day of work and I'm still salty as fuck about yesterday night. Infiltration didn't just destroy Daigo, he destroyed the hearts of all his fans who were so set on having a good night sleep. It was devastating, but I am a huge Peyton Manning fan so I'm use to the pain. This years almost over, next year will be a new year and a fresh start for everybody.

SF4 is getting that Esports money next year so I hope all the major players of that game holds nothing back. I might hate Infiltration for being so damn good, but I really admire him for all the work and effort he has put in. He's gone the extra length that I doubt many top players have done. Which is extensively study their opponents to look for habits and patterns he can exploit. Of course it takes more then that to win, which is why I don't think he's just a hard worker, but probably one of the most talented players we've ever seen.

But with all that said, Peyton Manning should win his 5th MVP and 2nd Super Bowl with the Broncos and considered a top 5 QB of all time, no questions asked. I wasn't too confident that Daigo could win, but this prediction, I can feel it.
 
TheThunder said:
So is AE, that's why Cammy and Zangief can be worlds apart in the overall tier list, but their head to head match up is even.

This aftermath US salt is silly, especially since most of who did the talking lost in match ups that at their worst are even if not in favor of their characters.
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Cammy and Zangief's head to head match up is not even, Zangief has some really bad matchups like vs Sagat, Seth and Chun that are very obviously 3-7 if not borderline 2-8. Which Cammy does not have. They are also not that really "worlds apart" in the tier list since most people would put Zangief as mid-high tier.
 
Rice-Eater said:
But with all that said, Peyton Manning should win his 5th MVP and 2nd Super Bowl with the Broncos and considered a top 5 QB of all time, no questions asked. I wasn't too confident that Daigo could win, but this prediction, I can feel it.
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Ryu please.

AP should get MVP and Bronco ain't winning no SB. Brady stopping Manning as usual.
 
Man, that post brought back memories of the salt unleashed when Marn beat Daigo at Season's beatings. Excuses everywhere, and the scrubbist shit you'll ever read. Not saying that your post had any of that, but the fanboyism got tiring especially when he started to lose every time he came over.
 
Feels like a lot of lot of the most talented American players are fairly unfocused in terms of their games, and don't commit themselves to grinding the way guys like Daigo and Infiltration do.

Losing to Koreans in competitive games is nothing new in general though lol.
 
scytheavatar said:
Cammy and Zangief's head to head match up is not even, Zangief has some really bad matchups like vs Sagat, Seth and Chun that are very obviously 3-7 if not borderline 2-8. Which Cammy does not have. They are also not that really "worlds apart" in the tier list since most people would put Zangief as mid-high tier.
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Wait, how does Zangief having bad MU vs other characters while Cammy doesn't effect their head to head being even (which it is) not exactly following the logic here ?

The game doesn't even come close to having 8-2 MU btw, go watch something like Chun/Hugo to know what a real 8-2 match up is about.
 
TheThunder said:
Wait, how does Zangief having bad MU vs other characters while Cammy doesn't effect their head to head being even (which it is) not exactly following the logic here ?

The game doesn't even come close to having 8-2 MU btw, go watch something like Chun/Hugo to know what a real 8-2 match up is about.
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If you are talking about Zangief vs Cammy it's not an even match either, it's pretty clearly 6-4 in favor of Zangief. Doesn't change the fact that if you add up the matchup scores Zangief clearly has a lower number than Cammy, so he's clearly lower tier than Cammy and the other top tier.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I'm probably the only guy here who frequents the SF4 tier list thread in the SF4 forums(at SRK), right? But anyways, I checked it out again today just to see what people had to say after the conclusion of the SF25 tournament. This is what UltraDavid had to say

UltraDavid said:
I can tell you there's a lot of hand wringing going on about character selection among top players right now. Don't be surprised if some high profile guys end up switching in the near future.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
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UltraDavid said:
I know a couple, including Justin and PR Rog, have talked about it openly. There are others too, though.

The thing is, if you have a realistic expectation of winning $25,000, handicapping yourself to any degree is crazy. That is, playing who you want to play is fine if it stands to cost you zero or even a few hundred bucks, but if it contributes to not winning $25k, you have to rethink what you're doing. So even if your character is only slightly less likely to win matches, the potential cost of that lower likelihood becomes too great to ignore.

I still think the game is pretty well balanced, but I understand that intentionally choosing even a minor handicap with that amount of money on the line, with essentially your livelihood on the line for some guys, is hard to justify.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
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With SF4 going to IPL next year, instead of winning maybe $1500 for 1st place at Major with over 200 players, we're probably going to see 1st place get a 5 digit pay check in a very stacked but much smaller IPL run tournament. So I look forward to see how everybody will change their strategies and out look with that much money on the line and considering how this year went with Infiltration's break out year.
 
ThatCrazyGuy said:
I do hope these guys switch up characters or have their counter pick characters more ready. Will make it really interesting. Blind pick!
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Imo everyone should have 3 characters maxed out or near maxed. A main, a counter pick, and a counter counter pick. Unless your main has pretty much no match ups that are bad there is no reason to not do this.
 
Rice-Eater said:
With SF4 going to IPL next year, instead of winning maybe $1500 for 1st place at Major with over 200 players, we're probably going to see 1st place get a 5 digit pay check in a very stacked but much smaller IPL run tournaments. So I look forward to see how everybody will change their strategies and out look with that much money on the line and considering how this year went with Infiltration's break out year.
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What I heard is that the pot for IPL at first isn't going to be that big, probably something like 5000.
 
Yea. I'm no SF4 pro, but I have Gief, Adon and Ryu ready (as ready can be for me, haha).

All this character loyalty stuff. IDK. I remember watching old ST stuff. The old guys had no problem using different characters depending on match ups.

Watts using Bison or Ryu depending. Choi with O.Sagat or Guile. Damdai and Afrolegend switch up as well. Daigo switched up in ST at the EVOs as well.
 
scytheavatar said:
If you are talking about Zangief vs Cammy it's not an even match either, it's pretty clearly 6-4 in favor of Zangief. Doesn't change the fact that if you add up the matchup scores Zangief clearly has a lower number than Cammy, so he's clearly lower tier than Cammy and the other top tier.
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Thanks for proving my point ?

I was pointing that AE is not just simply tier list based when it comes to head to head MU, so a top tier character doesn't automatically destroy a mid or low tier one, hence Gief vs Cammy (which I still believe is 5-5 since she can punish any whiffed SPD pretty hard).


I don't understand Justin, when did Rufus suddenly became mid tier or not a viable character ? he may not be top 5 but he's top 10. Sure picking Adon vs Seth would've been much better but he lost to Akuma which is pretty even against Rufus.

I guess he could main Adon, because aside from him, Akuma and Cammy, it doesn't get "cheaper" than Rufus tbh.

I can understand PR Rog having a pocket character like Yun, since it's probably annoying going against a good Guile or Sim which have trouble against Yun.
 
TheThunder said:
The game doesn't even come close to having 8-2 MU btw, go watch something like Chun/Hugo to know what a real 8-2 match up is about.
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Hawk/Blanka is 8-2. Hawk/Honda feels like 8-2 to me, but apparently it's 6/4, which is completely mind-boggling.

That said, I used to main Vega in Vanilla. I should pick him back up for those two matches.
 
Professor Beef said:
Hawk/Blanka is 8-2. Hawk/Honda feels like 8-2 to me, but apparently it's 6/4, which is completely mind-boggling.

That said, I used to main Vega in Vanilla. I should pick him back up for those two matches.
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Ok, I'll admit, it's not everyday you can play or even watch these 2 characters individually let alone watch them play each other so I'll take your word for it, but do you have any clips of the match up to see how bad it is ?
 
TheThunder said:
Thanks for proving my point ?

I was pointing that AE is not just simply tier list based when it comes to head to head MU, so a top tier character doesn't automatically destroy a mid or low tier one, hence Gief vs Cammy (which I still believe is 5-5 since she can punish any whiffed SPD pretty hard).


I don't understand Justin, when did Rufus suddenly became mid tier or not a viable character ? he may not be top 5 but he's top 10. Sure picking Adon vs Seth would've been much better but he lost to Akuma which is pretty even against Rufus.

I guess he could main Adon, because aside from him, Akuma and Cammy, it doesn't get "cheaper" than Rufus tbh.

I can understand PR Rog having a pocket character like Yun, since it's probably annoying going against a good Guile or Sim which have trouble against Yun.
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AE is not tier list based when it comes to head to head MU between 2 individual characters. It is however tier list based when it comes to head to head MU between the characters the matter in the current tournament metagame. If you look at the characters that J Wong and other Rufus players could have faced at the SF 25th tourney and the matchup numbers vs Rufus:

Zangief - 4/6 (some would argue it's 3/7)
Guy - 5/5 (from what I can see it's probably a slight edge for Guy, but LOL Floe)
Viper - 5/5 (debatable, Viper probably has a slight edge)
Seth - 4/6 (this is borderline 3/7)
Guile - 4/6 (again borderline 3/7)
Cammy - 5/5
Cody - 6/4 (finally a matchup in Rufus's favor)
Akuma - 3/7 (try denying this and telling me what Rufus can do against air fireballs)
Fei Long - 5/5 (debatable, since increasingly Fei Long players are getting an upper hand over Rufus players thanks to unblockables)
Adon - 5/5 (again debatable)
Ryu - 4/6

Basically Rufus either loses or is barely even with almost all of the characters that matter in the current tourney metagame. He beats characters like Chun, Rose and Abel without good anti air abilities, tell me do you think any top player is afraid of those playing these characters?
 
QisTopTier said:
Imo everyone should have 3 characters maxed out or near maxed. A main, a counter pick, and a counter counter pick. Unless your main has pretty much no match ups that are bad there is no reason to not do this.
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At 3 characters I'd imagine anyone being stretched too thin if they're trying to max them out.

The number of players that have maxed 2 characters could be counted on one hand. ie. Infiltration and Daigo. Ryan Hart, Mago, Momochi, and Laugh aren't quite there. Floe and Marn are well Floe and Marn. And Gamerbee's pocket Yun was extremely underwhelming.
 
scytheavatar said:
Zangief - 4/6 (some would argue it's 3/7)
Guy - 5/5 (from what I can see it's probably a slight edge for Guy, but LOL Floe)
Viper - 5/5 (debatable, Viper probably has a slight edge)
Seth - 4/6 (this is borderline 3/7)
Guile - 4/6 (again borderline 3/7)
Cammy - 5/5
Cody - 6/4 (finally a matchup in Rufus's favor)
Akuma - 3/7 (try denying this and telling me what Rufus can do against air fireballs)
Fei Long - 5/5 (debatable, since increasingly Fei Long is getting an upper hand over Rufus)
Adon - 5/5 (again debatable)
Ryu - 4/6
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Wait back up, most of these are fine and dandy (and no neither vs Seth or Guile is borderline 3-7 unless you religiously follow the EG Rufuses twitter) but when did Akuma/Rufus became 3-7 what ?!

Ricky knocked Tokido out at Canada cup, Justin always has close sets with Tokido (including when he lost this time) Ricky also beat Infiltration at NCR this year and he choose to go to Ryu in the run back at SB, so no, it's not even close to 3-7 I would say its even, and Justin lost mostly to Tokido mind fucking him on demon flips, not air fireballs which galactic tornado handles pretty well.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Rufus/Ryu is 5-5, any reason you think Ryu has an edge ?
 
TheThunder said:
Wait back up, most of these are fine and dandy (and no neither vs Seth or Guile is borderline 3-7 unless you religiously follow the EG Rufuses twitter) but when did Akuma/Rufus became 3-7 what ?!

Ricky knocked Tokido out at Canada cup, Justin always has close sets with Tokido (including when he lost this time) Ricky also beat Infiltration at NCR this year and he choose to go to Ryu in the run back at SB, so no, it's not even close to 3-7 I would say its even, and Justin lost mostly to Tokido mind fucking him on demon flips, not air fireballs which galactic tornado handles pretty well.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Rufus/Ryu is 5-5, any reason you think Ryu has an edge ?
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When I heard that J Wong was fighting Tokido I already knew that he was going to lose. Just look at how J Wong got bodied by Inflitration at Canada Cup. Ricky beating Tokido at CC doesn't really count because Tokido has been terrible at AE for a while already and obviously hasn't been putting that much time in it (and he obviously would have been taking it a lot more seriously when there's more money on the line). J Wong has had numerous sets against Tokido and always loses them in the past. This is a matchup that's pretty clearly in Akuma's favor.

Ryu vs Rufus is probably a lot less clear but I still feel that Ryu's superior footsies and strong zoning makes it hard for Rufus to start his game. Maybe you can argue it's 5/5 but it's hard to argue that Rufus has an advantage.

My point is that Rufus ATM is terrible in the current metagame, and the rise of unblockables is only going to make him drop even lower because characters with big hitboxes like him will be in an even bigger disadvantage.

Grecco said:
yep. i remember at CEO when Justin won people were saying USA was in the same level as ASIA in AE but no longer
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Back then and during EVO you could see that a lot of the big Japanese AE players had lost their interest in the game and had been spending a lot less time in it. Daigo during the very first Topanga league was dropping solar plexus combos like he's OMGITZAndre. You could have very well made a case back then that US was in the same level as Asia in AE back then. But since then Daigo and players like Mago and Fuudo has been taking the game a lot more seriously and had levelled themselves up, while US has struck to their characters and refused to adapt to the metagame. So it's a lot harder to argue that ATM.
 
scytheavatar said:
When I heard that J Wong was fighting Tokido I already knew that he was going to lose. Just look at how J Wong got bodied by Inflitration at Canada Cup. Ricky beating Tokido at CC doesn't really count because Tokido has been terrible at AE for a while already and obviously hasn't been putting that much time in it (and he obviously would have been taking it a lot more seriously when there's more money on the line). J Wong has had numerous sets against Tokido and always loses them in the past. This is a matchup that's pretty clearly in Akuma's favor.
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There was big money at CC and Tokido is not terrible at AE and was taking the game seriously, Ricky beat Tokido then Tokido beat him at the team tournament, Justin lost to Infiltration but Infiltration lost to Ricky earlier this year and forced him to switch characters, you know it goes back and forth.
It's hard to zone him out and he can blow crouch techs and do a serious amount of damage to Akuma's low stamina (and the same could be also said to Akuma's damage to him). Rufus has always fought well against the shotos, I don't know where your getting this ridiculous 3-7 from.

You know what happened, it may come off as a big surprise to you in particular, but the two Rufuses got really complacent and were dropping game to players they shouldn't in the last few months, you know after playing each other multiple time in rufus mirror GFs they probably stopped taking the game as serious. I knew it looked bad when Ricky went to his last pixels of health in the last match, last round against a fucking Dhalsim.


scytheavatar said:
My point is that Rufus ATM is terrible in the current metagame, and the rise of unblockables is only going to make him drop even lower because characters with big hitboxes like him will be in an even bigger disadvantage.
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Another one of your excessive hyperboles, no Rufus is not terrible, not even close to it.

Oh, speaking of unblockbles, try to block their ambiguous cross up dive kick in the corner with any form of consistency and then talk to me.

Rufus gets a clean hit > galactic tornado in the corner > ambiguous cross up dive kick > Target combo > Ultra > where all my health at ?!
 
Saying that Rufus is 3-7 against Ryu and Akuma is ridiculous. It's pretty clear that people have figured out how to play against both Ricky and Justin, their EX messiah spamming when they don't even know that it could go over a character just shows that they have been on autopilot for too long.

Excuses, excuses and excuses. Just pick what you consider and top tier and show us your skills, I'm already tired of reading all of this whining.
 
I think this all b.s.

It really comes down to practicing, scouting/notes, etc. Infiltration has been traveling to tournaments, both locally and internationally, to compete. He's been practicing. He has notes on matchups and players.

How am I going to take J.Wong seriously when in CVS2, he didn't bother to learn roll cancelling, in TS, he doesn't know how to kara grab with Chun-Li. And Ricky and Justin both use Chun in TS, so we know all of this top tier nonsense is not true. Justin uses O Sagat in ST. Ricky's team in CVS2 is top tier.

Daigo's not even the top player in SF anymore. Hasn't been for a few years. But we do see is he consistently working hard to play at a high level.

Not to poke fun, but when Wong was serious about SF and joined Evil Genius. Dude lost weight. Now, he's blown up again. Life, complacency and not preparing are at fault here.

Infiltration deserves the money
 
90TilInfinity said:
lol Christ almighty.
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My god. Appropriate display of the amount of salt:

300px-Bonneville_Salt_Flats.jpg


People are really damn shook by the amount of money they missed out on. eSports mentalities? :/
 
Ragingnight said:
wait Wolfkrone, and Kbrad complaining about their characters aren't good enough?
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Viper's a top tier character for sure, but I question how good of a tournament character she will be in the future when more and more people start using Cammy.

Still in a better position than a lot of characters though yeah.
 
IpKaiFung said:
fuck Rufus I hate that character.
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I remember during the IV days and how Rufus had a million ways to confirm ultra compared to every other character. That hasn't really change, nor has his damage or dive kick. Justin and Ricky have definitely developed the character into a top contender.

The one thing I'll give Justin is his commands of Rufus normal's and his ability to play footsies with him. But that's probably come from using the character for three years.
 
Rufus 3-7 against ryu? Lol no. You can thank eg and friends given tons of matchup experience to the world to study though.
 
vocab said:
Rufus 3-7 against ryu? Lol no. You can thank eg and friends given tons of matchup experience to the world to study though.
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Except for the occasional loss to Valle (very rarely) and Daigo, Rufus usually wins in this match up. And other than those two, we hardly ever see Ryu's make it far in tournaments.
 
Kikujiro said:
Saying that Rufus is 3-7 against Ryu and Akuma is ridiculous. It's pretty clear that people have figured out how to play against both Ricky and Justin, their EX messiah spamming when they don't even know that it could go over a character just shows that they have been on autopilot for too long.

Excuses, excuses and excuses. Just pick what you consider and top tier and show us your skills, I'm already tired of reading all of this whining.
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Rufus it's too dependable to the messiah, people fiugred it out long ago, it escape why Jwong and Ricky still use them.
 
Spiderjericho said:
I think this all b.s.

It really comes down to practicing, scouting/notes, etc. Infiltration has been traveling to tournaments, both locally and internationally, to compete. He's been practicing. He has notes on matchups and players.

How am I going to take J.Wong seriously when in CVS2, he didn't bother to learn roll cancelling, in TS, he doesn't know how to kara grab with Chun-Li. And Ricky and Justin both use Chun in TS, so we know all of this top tier nonsense is not true. Justin uses O Sagat in ST. Ricky's team in CVS2 is top tier.

Daigo's not even the top player in SF anymore. Hasn't been for a few years. But we do see is he consistently working hard to play at a high level.

Not to poke fun, but when Wong was serious about SF and joined Evil Genius. Dude lost weight. Now, he's blown up again. Life, complacency and not preparing are at fault here.

Infiltration deserves the money
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I think Daigo just maxed out Ryu, there is nothing more you can do with the character has reached his top. In the other handa I also think that Infiltration is using Akuma at his max but the the difference is that Akuma has a lot more options than Ryu.

enzo_gt said:
My god. Appropriate display of the amount of salt:

300px-Bonneville_Salt_Flats.jpg


People are really damn shook by the amount of money they missed out on. eSports mentalities? :/
Click to expand...

Infiltration just won ~80k man even if you are not pro player makes you think about it.
 
Yeah, a lot of dudes are salty, but what I'm mostly seeing is a bunch of people saying we need to step it up and pick cheaper shit. I don't see anything wrong with that.
 
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