The cycle must continue.
I'm sure they've experienced booker previous times.
"Does he row? No, he doesn't row"
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
The cycle must continue.
I'm sure they've experienced booker previous times.
"Does he row? No, he doesn't row"
disappeared
Banned
I think we all can agree..
Poor Booker.
He was an asshole at times, but..
Poor Booker.
He was an asshole at times, but..
therealminime
Member
I stayed far away from anything that could spoil me and boy am I glad I didn't have that moment spoiled. Seeing Rapture again was something else.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I think we all can agree..
Poor Booker.
He was an asshole at times, but..
I agree completely. I have never felt so bad for a character. It should be a crime with capital punishment to press "New Game".
Christ.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Honestly this part is fuzzy to me, most because I'm probably overthinking it. It's no coincidence that it's the same guy baptising Booker at the beginning of the game and in his flash back, and Booker completely blacks outs during the beginning baptism, there's a connection I'm missing.
np
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I can't believe I didn't notice that the quote at the beginning says "Lutece" at the bottom. I definitely need to play through this myself and connect the dots.
I think we all can agree..
Poor Booker.
He was an asshole at times, but..
Imagine if that what Hell is.
Living an infinite loop of your mistakes that you could never correct, and have to relive over and over and over again.
Damn.
Stronghammer22
Member
Ok GAF, bear with me here. I finished the game last night, then went for an hour long walk today and thought about the ending. I wanted a way to explain that last scene after the credits. I may be completely off base, crazy, but this is how I'm going to look at it.
Either Anna is in the crib, or she has already been taken. She does exist. Killing Booker at the baptism resets the loop, but it is destined to happen again. Will live, lived, will die. The Elizabeth you're with is not special, in the sense that the others all have the "keys" to the multiverse. Notice how you can see on various piers Booker and Elizabeth having the same conversation as you and Elizabeth? It happens every time, the same. The coin toss at the start plays into this. The Luteces have played around with time travel, you see them teleporting themselves ahead in a certain section (the dancing, piano etc). They have seen the outcome, it's always the same. Thus, the count on the board. You've experienced this 50 odd (I didn't actually count the numbers on the board, lol) times and you always pick heads. There is of course, an argument for probability here. I know Sid joked about how people expected to win a battle more often than not even though the chance was 50/50, in Civilization. You're going to think that tails is due for a turn, but the truth is, nothing before matters, it's always 50/50. However, for my perspective, we're going to rule out probability.
The ghost of Lady Comstock can be looked at in a few different ways. The Luteces say "Not what, but when", with regard to the ghost. This could suggest that Elizabeth has pulled the ghost of Lady Comstock from a parallel universe. It's possible that Lady Comstock was Anna's mother... Elizabeth pulled her from another time, but also brought along her resentment towards her. Thus, we have this conflict of bewilderment (as Anna's mother, she doesn't understand what's happening or why the hatred is there) and anger. Elizabeth states "I don't know whether I wish things into existence or pull them from somewhere". She did both. She pulled Lady Comstock through time, but also manifested her own idea of her into the ghost.
If we take the ghost as being the Lady Comstock from Comstock's world, It can make sense too. From what I gathered, she did in fact resent the child, as obviously she didn't give birth to it. She didn't like that Comstock brought another woman's baby into their life, and proclaimed it as the next leader. It could be her infused with Elizabeth's "wish anger", lol.
"There is always a man, always a lighthouse.". Yes, Booker may die in this universe, but (with my theory) this only resets the loop, or ends it in this universe. In another lighthouse, the same things will happen. It is infinite.
A few things. In the ending scene after the credits, do we see Booker's hands? It would be interesting to see whether he has "AD" carved into it. That said, he doesn't have it there when he first enters Columbia, only when his memory comes back to him (a little) IIRC. So, it wouldn't be conclusive if it wasn't there. If it is, then that proves that she exists and has been taken, thus the loop continues. Is the date on his desk significant? It's clearly displayed. Is it the same/close to the same as when the Luteces made the deal/came to take her? I really need to replay it, to check all of these details.
I don't know how the detour into Rapture plays into it. Unless it's simply a commentary on mankind craving power and thus creating class structures, that will inevitably lead to destruction/ruination?
**I took my time writing that. I see we have a #Team Loop now, lol. I definitely agree.
Either Anna is in the crib, or she has already been taken. She does exist. Killing Booker at the baptism resets the loop, but it is destined to happen again. Will live, lived, will die. The Elizabeth you're with is not special, in the sense that the others all have the "keys" to the multiverse. Notice how you can see on various piers Booker and Elizabeth having the same conversation as you and Elizabeth? It happens every time, the same. The coin toss at the start plays into this. The Luteces have played around with time travel, you see them teleporting themselves ahead in a certain section (the dancing, piano etc). They have seen the outcome, it's always the same. Thus, the count on the board. You've experienced this 50 odd (I didn't actually count the numbers on the board, lol) times and you always pick heads. There is of course, an argument for probability here. I know Sid joked about how people expected to win a battle more often than not even though the chance was 50/50, in Civilization. You're going to think that tails is due for a turn, but the truth is, nothing before matters, it's always 50/50. However, for my perspective, we're going to rule out probability.
The ghost of Lady Comstock can be looked at in a few different ways. The Luteces say "Not what, but when", with regard to the ghost. This could suggest that Elizabeth has pulled the ghost of Lady Comstock from a parallel universe. It's possible that Lady Comstock was Anna's mother... Elizabeth pulled her from another time, but also brought along her resentment towards her. Thus, we have this conflict of bewilderment (as Anna's mother, she doesn't understand what's happening or why the hatred is there) and anger. Elizabeth states "I don't know whether I wish things into existence or pull them from somewhere". She did both. She pulled Lady Comstock through time, but also manifested her own idea of her into the ghost.
If we take the ghost as being the Lady Comstock from Comstock's world, It can make sense too. From what I gathered, she did in fact resent the child, as obviously she didn't give birth to it. She didn't like that Comstock brought another woman's baby into their life, and proclaimed it as the next leader. It could be her infused with Elizabeth's "wish anger", lol.
"There is always a man, always a lighthouse.". Yes, Booker may die in this universe, but (with my theory) this only resets the loop, or ends it in this universe. In another lighthouse, the same things will happen. It is infinite.
A few things. In the ending scene after the credits, do we see Booker's hands? It would be interesting to see whether he has "AD" carved into it. That said, he doesn't have it there when he first enters Columbia, only when his memory comes back to him (a little) IIRC. So, it wouldn't be conclusive if it wasn't there. If it is, then that proves that she exists and has been taken, thus the loop continues. Is the date on his desk significant? It's clearly displayed. Is it the same/close to the same as when the Luteces made the deal/came to take her? I really need to replay it, to check all of these details.
I don't know how the detour into Rapture plays into it. Unless it's simply a commentary on mankind craving power and thus creating class structures, that will inevitably lead to destruction/ruination?
**I took my time writing that. I see we have a #Team Loop now, lol. I definitely agree.
This is definitely a game that warrants a second playthrough for sure. I can't imagine how other small hints or clues are there that we completely missed.
disappeared
Banned
Dude seriously, keep your computer or laptop handy and just start taking notes.
Events, NPC dialogue, voxophones...
It's all I've been doing this week.
A game like this was meant for deep-diving. Levine and his writing crew took the time to write it, so why shouldn't we do the same work?
Maybe at the end it'll end up like LOST where it's all bullshit hahaha, but somehow I don't think it's going to be the same.
That and to show the multi universe theory in action.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
"One does not go into an experiment knowing one has failed."
/crying uncontrollably.
Booker, why can't I save you?
/crying uncontrollably.
Booker, why can't I save you?
well considering the ending post credits there's like two scenarios, right?
1.) the intervention by elizabeth, caused by future Liz prevents the events of the game from happening. Booker neither gets baptised or not baptised and Comstock is not created. Booker lives with Anna Dewitt.
2.) The drowning at the river is ultimately pointless. Despite attempts the loop continues, infinitely.
disappeared
Banned
Don't mean to sound like an asshole, but I'm not watching shit until I've done the research myself. He did that video after one playthrough? Nope.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I knew they were going to do Rapture, but I expected more build-up.... nope. It just happened.
don't know if it was mentioned, but i noticed that this elizabeth showed up at the end along with the other multiverse elizabeths!
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I think that was some weird way of him sympathizing for Booker. Especially since Rosalind says, "ah, I see what you mean."
what makes some guy on youtube's opinion more important than a random gaf poster
disappeared
Banned
Yes!
I thought while watching it that it was almost a tongue-in-cheek reference to the different Elizabeths they've shown over the years now.
Kind of nice actually.
I would like to say intentional, but likely just circumstance.
I figured Booker was Comstock when I noticed they were the same age during the timeline poster in the Hall of Heroes, but I did not see the selling of the daughter coming at all!
Is it explained how Lutece and Elizabeth have the power to open tears? I presume Lutece can open/create tears considering all the jumping they do.
Art in both the ending sequence and the overall game was amazing, going to wait a few weeks before posting a ton of screenshots.
Is it explained how Lutece and Elizabeth have the power to open tears? I presume Lutece can open/create tears considering all the jumping they do.
Art in both the ending sequence and the overall game was amazing, going to wait a few weeks before posting a ton of screenshots.
Ok I thought Ill bring up what I understood for my perspective, feel free to correct stuff if I hadn't noticed them (Highly Spoilery):
So, lets start with world 1 (booker's world), his wife dies while giving birth, he's left with baby Anna.
After getting into debt he gives Anna away to clear it, tries to back out of the deal but fails (Ally scene).
After some time later (?) he decided to get baptized.
THIS IS WHERE THE TIMELINES SPLIT:
Let's say that in world 1 he gets out of the baptism (first scene in the ending), and in world 2 he agrees to be baptized (and renames himself as Comstock).
now, in world Comstock, after starting Columbia he gets Anna from Booker, this could have several reasons:
1. He misses his child and wants her back, and now he can with the quantum tech.
2. He needs a baby to do experiments on.
3. He wants a baby but he's sterile.
NOTE: he is not going back in time to take Anna, he is going to another world, meaning there shouldn't be a time traveling paradox here (because he is not taking his own anna, he's taking a different world's anna, but the transaction stays the same (constants and variables
)).
Now, back in World Booker, he misses his baby and full of regret, so he asks the two scientists to help him solve his problem.
They then transfer him to a different world where Anna is held in columbia (might be his Anna and might be a different world's anna), and send him to rescue her.
That's basically it, and that's why booker cant kill Comstock at all, because that requires him to kill himself (his comstock but in a different world with different outcomes), what leads to all Elizabeths to drawn him - as to help him kill all the comstocks out there.
That's basically it, tell me what you think.
Another thing that proves they (booker and comstock) are the same person is the fact the both said they participated in the war, and they both did. that's why booker thinks comstock is stealing his credit on perticipating in the war midway through the game.
So, lets start with world 1 (booker's world), his wife dies while giving birth, he's left with baby Anna.
After getting into debt he gives Anna away to clear it, tries to back out of the deal but fails (Ally scene).
After some time later (?) he decided to get baptized.
THIS IS WHERE THE TIMELINES SPLIT:
Let's say that in world 1 he gets out of the baptism (first scene in the ending), and in world 2 he agrees to be baptized (and renames himself as Comstock).
now, in world Comstock, after starting Columbia he gets Anna from Booker, this could have several reasons:
1. He misses his child and wants her back, and now he can with the quantum tech.
2. He needs a baby to do experiments on.
3. He wants a baby but he's sterile.
NOTE: he is not going back in time to take Anna, he is going to another world, meaning there shouldn't be a time traveling paradox here (because he is not taking his own anna, he's taking a different world's anna, but the transaction stays the same (constants and variables
)).Now, back in World Booker, he misses his baby and full of regret, so he asks the two scientists to help him solve his problem.
They then transfer him to a different world where Anna is held in columbia (might be his Anna and might be a different world's anna), and send him to rescue her.
That's basically it, and that's why booker cant kill Comstock at all, because that requires him to kill himself (his comstock but in a different world with different outcomes), what leads to all Elizabeths to drawn him - as to help him kill all the comstocks out there.
That's basically it, tell me what you think.
Another thing that proves they (booker and comstock) are the same person is the fact the both said they participated in the war, and they both did. that's why booker thinks comstock is stealing his credit on perticipating in the war midway through the game.
Liz finger got cut off in the middle of the tear, while being traded to the other side. Giving her the ability to open tears.
Haha, well, she had the old Elizabeth haircut, but the current Elizabeth face.
Vire
Member
Nothing, it's just an easy to understand format for those who may be lost.
I'm not saying what he's saying is fact, just an interesting take.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Man, the whole opening dialogue makes this ending harder to stomach. Can't wait to go through it all again.
I figure that maybe it's a reference to another reality where Booker still has Anna but avoid the baptism event all together. Maybe a reality where Booker never fights in the Battle of Wounded Knee? If there exists an infinite number of universe based off of branches of decisions, this would be feasible.
disappeared
Banned
I think I'm going to take a break until I track down the rest of these fucking voxophones.
Seriously, there might be one hidden tape that unravels this whole damned thing.
Seriously, there might be one hidden tape that unravels this whole damned thing.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I hope so.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Wish I hadn't looked at reviews at all before playing this. Not that I read any, but I saw a summary of IGN's that really hyped up the plot twist being something amazing. I wouldn't even have been expecting a plot twist if it weren't for that.
As it was, I totally guessed that Booker was her father and he and Comstock were the same person early on (had no clue how it was going to play out and come to be though). I didn't guess the Rapture moment until later. I can't remember when, but at some point you see a picture of a lighthouse, which I immediately thought was the lighthouse from BS1.
Moral of the story, I need to stop reading reviews before I play games. Still a great game. And like I said, not like I knew how we were going to get there, so the journey was still tons of fun.
As it was, I totally guessed that Booker was her father and he and Comstock were the same person early on (had no clue how it was going to play out and come to be though). I didn't guess the Rapture moment until later. I can't remember when, but at some point you see a picture of a lighthouse, which I immediately thought was the lighthouse from BS1.
Moral of the story, I need to stop reading reviews before I play games. Still a great game. And like I said, not like I knew how we were going to get there, so the journey was still tons of fun.
Can someone, or maybe as a collective group come up with a be all, end all theory (or theories) of what we think possibly happened.
An make it in the form of a flow chart. That will make things so much easier to digest for the newbies that will be coming to this thread in the coming days.
An make it in the form of a flow chart. That will make things so much easier to digest for the newbies that will be coming to this thread in the coming days.
This is what I suspect as well. It's a universe/timeline where somehow he both never visited the baptism scene at all and managed to have Anna.
About there being more than one Booker who goes to a Columbia to try and rescue Elizabeth. That is true, but it doesn't mean any loop.
There is at least one Booker who become a Vox Populi Martyr. Then there are all the times you die without Elizabeth being there to save you, so that's at least another 100 Bookers in my playthrough.
But it doesn't matter, because one of them will succeed. One of those Bookers will go to the river to be drowned, thus eliminating all the others along with all the Comstocks. What is left is every Booker who never went to the river to be baptized, one of which may have had a daughter anyway.
There is at least one Booker who become a Vox Populi Martyr. Then there are all the times you die without Elizabeth being there to save you, so that's at least another 100 Bookers in my playthrough.
But it doesn't matter, because one of them will succeed. One of those Bookers will go to the river to be drowned, thus eliminating all the others along with all the Comstocks. What is left is every Booker who never went to the river to be baptized, one of which may have had a daughter anyway.
Just finished. BLOWN AWAY.
I was not expecting Rapture.
i was not expecting EVERY Elizabeth.
I love it. I love that they used the years of development this game had to it's advantage. Its like no asset went unused...haha.
Man, i wonder what the DLC is gonna be like. One off stories? It would have to be right?
I was not expecting Rapture.
i was not expecting EVERY Elizabeth.
I love it. I love that they used the years of development this game had to it's advantage. Its like no asset went unused...haha.
Man, i wonder what the DLC is gonna be like. One off stories? It would have to be right?
disappeared
Banned
This was a fun night guys. Thanks to yall.
I'm going to try and wrap up my second playthrough by this weekend. I got that limited edition strat guide with the "key" today, so I'm gonna track down the rest of the tapes.
We'll solve this.
John Locke style.
"Do you believe in God?"
I'm going to try and wrap up my second playthrough by this weekend. I got that limited edition strat guide with the "key" today, so I'm gonna track down the rest of the tapes.
We'll solve this.
John Locke style.
"Do you believe in God?"
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
"Booker are you afraid of God?"
"No, I'm afraid of you."
Man is that resonating so much with me right now. Literally feeling chills as we speak, damn.
GenericBadGuy
Member
I just finished the game tonight, and here are some immediate thoughts without thinking about it too much (which means there is likely mistakes). If there's one thing I learned from years of reading people's wild Silent Hill theories, its that it is easy to think too much. I'll look back on this after people poor over details. Fun non-philosophical theories below:
Pseudo-timeline format
Of course there is enough holes and unexplained stuff in that list, but I wanted to write it down before I quickly forget anything more than I have already. Not very well researched at all.
P.S. I saw the Comstock/Booker thing coming the moment I listened to a couple of Letuce's recordings about a guy being older in one world than another. Not very subtle, Letuce! Ties into the complaints about going into the story expecting the twist.
Pseudo-timeline format
- Booker is man haunted by past deeds, whether as a pinkerton or from the war.
- Booker accepts baptism and becomes Comstock/Doesn't accept baptism and stays Booker
- In Comstocks world, he does his Columbia thing. Female Letuce creates a device that creates tears between alternate worlds, allowing Comstock's crew to learn possible futures and knowledges (Comstock thinks the futures he sees are absolute and not only possibilities). In Booker's world he carries the pain he didn't wash away with him, and it leads him into drink and gambling.
- Back in Comstock's world, its clear to F. Letuce that the device has both aged him rapidly and made him sterile. In order to acquire an heir, she decides to simply take it from a different Comstock (Booker). She facilitates this by contacting herself in Booker's world, where she is male. I'm convinced they are the same person - according to the little movie viewers the "brother" popped out of nowhere into Columbia, they finish each others sentences, talk alike, look alike, etc. We see Male Letuce went through to Comstock's world when Anna went through with Comstock.
- Anna is experimented on and integrated somehow with the device the Letuces create, being able to open tears herself on a level previously unseen. She is raised as Elizabeth and Comstock does anything he can to make sure she fulfills the future he wants.
- Booker anguishes over the loss of his daughter, drinks and represses the memory, brands her name into his hand.
- Fink and Comstock murder off anyone who knows the truth in their world. A sabotage in the tear-creating device is used to kill the Letuces, but like they say themselves it had the side effect of scattering their "selves" or whatnot all over the worlds (Need citation and the exact quote they used).
- The Letuces go back to Booker's world and pick up Booker, who is more than happy to fabricate the necessary memories needed to join them and try to find his daughter.
- The game happens - including a couple trips to alternate worlds to get some guns. In one world Booker joined the Vox alongside Slate upon his arrival in Columbia, or perhaps traveled there with Slate in the first place. I wonder what it was like in the world between saving the gunsmith and moving his tools.
- An aged Elizabeth from another world pulls Booker into hers to show him what he needs to stop, and gives him the help to do so before kicking him back to where he was.
- Comstock is stopped, the truth about Booker/Comstock and the worlds is revealed with a nice fanservice cameo, and Booker and Elizabeth decide to go back to before the baptism and prevent it all from happening. After the credits we get an Inception-esque ending where Anna may or may not be in the crib. Personally much like the ending to Inception I think she is there and everything is hunky dory now (Christopher Nolan said the top stopped spinning in the end of Inception by the way[citation needed]). I don't feel the "eternal limbo" theory is great although more evidence may support it - its not exactly new or rare and we do seem to be on this "downer ending" kick with games lately. Purely my opinion of course.
Of course there is enough holes and unexplained stuff in that list, but I wanted to write it down before I quickly forget anything more than I have already. Not very well researched at all.
P.S. I saw the Comstock/Booker thing coming the moment I listened to a couple of Letuce's recordings about a guy being older in one world than another. Not very subtle, Letuce! Ties into the complaints about going into the story expecting the twist.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
To be fair, he really doesn't say anything that isn't straightforward.
That's why I don't get why so many people don't understand the ending. It's like they think that it CAN'T be as simple as it is.
Levine said they will be unique stories with new and unique characters that will help flesh out the universe of Columbia.
Levine will be developing the dlc episodes, so I imagine they won't be half assed.
From what I presume, it will be similar to Minerva's Den, Bioshock 2 dlc.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Ok I thought Ill bring up what I understood for my perspective, feel free to correct stuff if I hadn't noticed them (Highly Spoilery):
So, lets start with world 1 (booker's world), his wife dies while giving birth, he's left with baby Anna.
After getting into debt he gives Anna away to clear it, tries to back out of the deal but fails (Ally scene).
After some time later (?) he decided to get baptized.
THIS IS WHERE THE TIMELINES SPLIT:
Let's say that in world 1 he gets out of the baptism (first scene in the ending), and in world 2 he agrees to be baptized (and renames himself as Comstock).
now, in world Comstock, after starting Columbia he gets Anna from Booker, this could have several reasons:
1. He misses his child and wants her back, and now he can with the quantum tech.
2. He needs a baby to do experiments on.
3. He wants a baby but he's sterile.
NOTE: he is not going back in time to take Anna, he is going to another world, meaning there shouldn't be a time traveling paradox here (because he is not taking his own anna, he's taking a different world's anna, but the transaction stays the same (constants and variables
Now, back in World Booker, he misses his baby and full of regret, so he asks the two scientists to help him solve his problem.
They then transfer him to a different world where Anna is held in columbia (might be his Anna and might be a different world's anna), and send him to rescue her.
That's basically it, and that's why booker cant kill Comstock at all, because that requires him to kill himself (his comstock but in a different world with different outcomes), what leads to all Elizabeths to drawn him - as to help him kill all the comstocks out there.
That's basically it, tell me what you think.
Another thing that proves they (booker and comstock) are the same person is the fact the both said they participated in the war, and they both did. that's why booker thinks comstock is stealing his credit on perticipating in the war midway through the game.
But Booker does kill Comstock
he bashes his head in and then drowns him.
Vire
Member
Nice rundown, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
indigo-cyclops
Member
Has anyone thought that perhaps the Lutece female scientist is the "Andrew Ryan" of this one? Building these infinite worlds that Booker is constantly re-experiencing? I just remebered the coin-toss/tally board at the beginning. And the scientists' mentioned a thought experiment.
It's late though, so it's sort of a half-hearted thought.
It's late though, so it's sort of a half-hearted thought.
"Bring us the girl, clear the debt"
GenericBadGuy
Member
Thanks. I want to say that I love the Letuces and their sarcastic mad-scientist-y observations. I'm on the "they are pretty much just in it for the science/curiosity" wagon, but of course by helping Booker they also prevent their own fate. Did you try hitting them in your game? Its funny - they comment on how its impossible for you to do so.
I think Letuce would be right at home in Rapture, but shes not the "man" in that world - Comstock definitely is. As for the thought experiment I figured they were commenting on Booker making up memories and how they get mixed between worlds (with a helpful alerting nosebleed).
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
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