BlastProcessing
Member
"False Prophet"
Oh I just got that.
Oh I just got that.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Because he feels guilty for selling her in the first place, so the lettuces approach him with the offer to alter his memories (somehow) and make him rejoin her / get her back.
I think there's something there about Comstock wanting to kill the lettuces so that might be their reason for doing all of that.
movie_club
Junior Member
what?
It all makes sense now, got most of it but didn't piece it together correctly.
I just finished the game.
Its ending is still percolating in my mind, but I do believe it to have a narrative that's both intricate and satisfying. The one thing I think perplexes people is the existential quandaries of multiple universes.
Admittedly, I'm still pondering the specifics. I think that's its prerogative.
Don't think of it in linear terms. What we saw was a crossing of multiple universes all divering from one particular moment.
There are two Booker DeWitts germane to the plot. They're facsimiles until a pivotal moment: the baptism. The first refuses the baptism, choosing to live with his transgressions. The second embraces the act and is reborn as Zachary Comstock, wiping away his "sins" and creating a new identity.
The ending scene eliminates this altogether. If he remains under the water, Booker can do neither, thus stopping the cyclical process we saw in the final sequence (the endless lighthouses).
The point being: there are a staggering number of universes. The only definitive way to stop the seemingly perennial atrocities? Wipe away its focal point.
I don't know if this has already been posted, but I'd recommend reading the below piece from Forbes to help engender further thought.
An Attempt to Understand BioShock Infinite's Brilliant and Bizarre Ending.
Edit: That reddit entry cleared up most of the putrescence remaining after completing the game.
Its ending is still percolating in my mind, but I do believe it to have a narrative that's both intricate and satisfying. The one thing I think perplexes people is the existential quandaries of multiple universes.
Admittedly, I'm still pondering the specifics. I think that's its prerogative.
Don't think of it in linear terms. What we saw was a crossing of multiple universes all divering from one particular moment.
There are two Booker DeWitts germane to the plot. They're facsimiles until a pivotal moment: the baptism. The first refuses the baptism, choosing to live with his transgressions. The second embraces the act and is reborn as Zachary Comstock, wiping away his "sins" and creating a new identity.
The ending scene eliminates this altogether. If he remains under the water, Booker can do neither, thus stopping the cyclical process we saw in the final sequence (the endless lighthouses).
The point being: there are a staggering number of universes. The only definitive way to stop the seemingly perennial atrocities? Wipe away its focal point.
I don't know if this has already been posted, but I'd recommend reading the below piece from Forbes to help engender further thought.
An Attempt to Understand BioShock Infinite's Brilliant and Bizarre Ending.
Edit: That reddit entry cleared up most of the putrescence remaining after completing the game.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Hey guys,
What was cause for the "6 months" Elizabeth waited for Booker? How did he die?
I think someone said it was because he fought songbird at some point, but then why would Elizabeth not know about his death?
Trying to write a timeline down for my friend, he just finished this on his ps3 or something, I forget what console he has
What was cause for the "6 months" Elizabeth waited for Booker? How did he die?
I think someone said it was because he fought songbird at some point, but then why would Elizabeth not know about his death?
Trying to write a timeline down for my friend, he just finished this on his ps3 or something, I forget what console he has
BlastProcessing
Member
I don't think they offer to alter his memories. It is just something that happens when he enters that dimension. You hear them talking about it at the end. The game started with that quote about the brain creating its own reality.
Booker's mind was blank and the single most important phrase was all that was left. The phrase that caused him the most pain. "Bring us the girl and wipe away the debt." So he rebuild his own reality around that phrase. Instead of giving Anna away he is saving her.
Comstock is the Prophet. He knows that a version of him from another dimension is going to show up. A "false" Comstock or "False Prophet."
Alright, the only thing that hasn't been touched up on is when the Lutece twins let Elizabeth use the tear to make the Chinese gun manufacturer alive again. In that Columbia, Booker is a known rebel or one of the main rebels in the uprising, and in that universe he died. There's even an audio log left by the Booker that was killed.
What about that Booker? Does he even matter in the grand scheme of things?
What about that Booker? Does he even matter in the grand scheme of things?
Yes.
Elizabeth wouldn't immediately know because it probably happened while she was locked away, tortured, and vetted to succeed Comstock.
The "older" Elizabeth tells Booker as much as they watch New York under siege in a future alternative universe. This is why she hands a note to give to a younger version of Elizabeth to "control" Songbird.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
My grasp on everything is still foggy,
But I don't think he actually "matters", other than to show you that in every reality where Comstock is, there are realities where Booker is something else to Columbia. Why that universe is also the one where Chen is alive, I have no idea.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Ah, but do they specify that exact point, or are we to assume that in every reality where Booker is, some variation of her being captured by Songbird (similar to the scene we had), Booker tries to fight it and dies?
So thats why immediately after, old Liz brings him into the tear, since there wasn't yet a reality where he doesn't die somehow?
after Liz gets taken by Songbird, Booker attempts to chase after him to get her back. I'm assuming that when Booker actually reaches the gates of Comstock House is when he confronts Songbird, and inevitably loses. but like you stated, we can only assume that's what would've happened in this particular reality. with the other universes the details would be different, but the outcome the same.
remember what the lutece twins said about variables and constants.
variables: the songbird snatching Elizabeth situation
constant: booker dying trying to save liz
This was my problem when I first finished the game and read up on this thread. I had a problem with Elizabeth exposing us to infinite universes. I felt that was kind of irrelevant in the story since they basically only care about the 2, the one where Dewitt becomes Comstock and the one where he gives up his daughter.
I just kind of ended up with the theory that they don't care about the rest of the universes because this is not a story about Dewitt and Elizabeth, this is a story of the Letuce's trying to craft a scenario to right their wrongs. So any universe that exist beyond that is irrelevant.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Right, so where did she drop him back off? I know it is 1912, but in the timeline of events during the game, where/when is he exactly, when old liz sends him back?
This I'm not certain of. Perhaps it's a mixture of both?
The older Elizabeth remarks in her lone scene that Booker "always" loses to Songbird. But I suppose there would have to be an exact instance of Booker's defeat for that New York in flames timeline to unfold.
During the stint in Comstock House, we're seeing tears into that future where Elizabeth spent an interminable about of time being tortured and vetted.
I think this would be the Elizabeth we see at the end that appears to have been physically marred (scars on the right of her face).
Same year, but it appears that Booker is implanted just before the experiment is performed.
So if we're led to believe that timeline with the tears we see, it'd be six months, right?
But he said somewhere in the ending that a man came with an offer of redemption.
I think the offer did come from lettuce to actually go ahead and move through the tear, and afterwards Bookers brain adapted.
the way i understood it, Old Liz sends Booker back pretty recently to where she took him. maybe a couple of days after?
i'll have to replay through the section again to see. six months seems like a long time, but I do recall Liz saying something about the passage of time. also her attitude shifts from that innocent girl to somewhat of a vengeful woman, so six months could be reasonable
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Oh, thats odd.
Seing as she can manipulate his place in space too, why not just put him in the room Elizabeth gets dropped off in immediately after Song Bird swoops her up?
Was it to make her desperate for his help or something?
But 1912 Liz says she waited for him for a very long time. 6 months right?
I'll have to play the game to be able to repeat their exchanges verbatim, but I'll paraphrase.
Older Elizabeth is in a weakened state when we meet her during the New York siege. Her abilities were pared down by the experiment. She blatantly states that it took everything she had to transport Booker to her time.
Younger Elizabeth doesn't explicitly say how long she was incarcerated for, but we know it's been a while based on how she acts and appears. Also, the tears and recordings we encounter are glimpses into that future interspersed with what's happening to her in our absence.
The point of divergence is the experiment. That's when the timeline irrevocably shifts. That's why Booker is transported to that day by older Elizabeth.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
If that is true, does that mean that old Elizabeth brought him to 1984 on more than one occasion?
I only say that, because how else do you explain all of the Elizabeths coming to the final Baptism scene, without their own Bookers?
Actually, forget all that. I still don't get it. Thats what I get for watching the worst gameplay series on this freaking planet.
SpartanN92
Banned
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Seriously though.
Beat the game before making a thread like this. IMO the only people that have completed Infinite and still don't like it just didn't understand the story. It is a rather complicated plot that is meant for a somewhat more sophisticated audience.
SpartanN92
Banned
C-A-G-E, the notes to play to summon Songbird
Edit: just for the sake you actually didn't finish it yet, though this is a spoiler thread.
SpartanN92
Banned
Your Mario avatar is well suited to you then -_-
Liz sort of explicitly tells you what it means. I'm gonna go ahead and spoiler this in case you haven't beaten the game yet:
C-A-G-E are the musical notes that spell out the melody that lets you control Songbird
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
here, take this gift I stole
What an astounding game. I enjoyed almost every moment of it. I was able to figure out the plot twist about Comstock being Booker when I landed on his battleship and one of Rosalind Lutece's recordings mentioned how Comstock was fertile in another time. But when I was choking and beating Comstock to death, against my will as a player might I add, and he mentioned a dark secret about Elizabeth, I didn't connect the dots that Elizabeth was actually Booker's daughter. Instead, I immediately jumped to conclusion that Elizabeth was a child of Lutece twins. That would truly have been a dark secret, had it been the case.
Like with TV show Lost, I had a bunch of lingering in-universe questions when I finished the game. But by the time the credits started rolling I was emotionally satisfied with the fate of most of the characters. I wish the post credit scene implying Booker might still be alive didn't exist because it lowers the value of his death so much. There cannot be a more tragic and yet loving message of the game than him dying for the sake of his daughter. But that post credit clip is completely devoid of any context, so who knows what that means.
The highlight of the game for me was when the mechanical bird comes in and kidnaps Elizabeth, and in searching for her you stumble across the timeline where she is out destroying the world. I can't remember the last time I have felt so much guilt, a sense of abandoning someone I cared about, in a videogame setting. That walking dead game came close, but even there I felt that I was trying my best in preparing Clementine for the apocalyptic world that she inhabited. But here as soon I came into old Elizabeth timeline I was bombarded with audio clips of Elizabeth talking about how she had but her trust in me and I had forsaken her. The audio clips of prison doctors and Comstock only furthered my anger and frustration as they were talking about how they had managed to break Elizabeth's sense of hope; thus taking away her most precious characteristic and what differentiated her from the rest of the characters in that game. I felt a mix of regret and anger, though me abandoning her was completely narrative driven and not a byproduct of my choices.
I had a chance to vent out some of my regret and frustration when I went to the timeline where Elizabeth was still young and while shutting down the two electric generators, chose to kill the unarmed scientists who were practically cowering in my presence. The sense of regret still managed to stay with me as even this Elizabeth had her heart filled with vengeance and desired to kill Comstock. If a choice had popped up saying something along the lines of "Pursue Comstock" or "Take Elizabeth to france", the latter option would have been a no brainer for me. I would have happily dragged her away from this poisonous and violent environment. Let her mature a bit, take time off to develop a perspective, admit her to some University and let her study the infinite nature of parallel Universes a bit more. But the in-universe reality wasn't so kind to Elizabeth, or at least the Elizabeths that I had encountered so far in the game.
Overall an excellent game. Powerful gameplay assisted narrative. This was much more character focused than the last two Bioshock games, which is neither good nor bad. Just unexpected. The big lingering question for me right now is that if there truly are infinite worlds in Bioshock then how is it possible for Booker to cease to exist in all of them? Additionally, if Booker truly stops existing in all timelines then how does Elizabeth exist in the first place? But eh; I don't care if an in game explanation is never revealed. As long as Booker stays dead, I'm happy.
Like with TV show Lost, I had a bunch of lingering in-universe questions when I finished the game. But by the time the credits started rolling I was emotionally satisfied with the fate of most of the characters. I wish the post credit scene implying Booker might still be alive didn't exist because it lowers the value of his death so much. There cannot be a more tragic and yet loving message of the game than him dying for the sake of his daughter. But that post credit clip is completely devoid of any context, so who knows what that means.
The highlight of the game for me was when the mechanical bird comes in and kidnaps Elizabeth, and in searching for her you stumble across the timeline where she is out destroying the world. I can't remember the last time I have felt so much guilt, a sense of abandoning someone I cared about, in a videogame setting. That walking dead game came close, but even there I felt that I was trying my best in preparing Clementine for the apocalyptic world that she inhabited. But here as soon I came into old Elizabeth timeline I was bombarded with audio clips of Elizabeth talking about how she had but her trust in me and I had forsaken her. The audio clips of prison doctors and Comstock only furthered my anger and frustration as they were talking about how they had managed to break Elizabeth's sense of hope; thus taking away her most precious characteristic and what differentiated her from the rest of the characters in that game. I felt a mix of regret and anger, though me abandoning her was completely narrative driven and not a byproduct of my choices.
I had a chance to vent out some of my regret and frustration when I went to the timeline where Elizabeth was still young and while shutting down the two electric generators, chose to kill the unarmed scientists who were practically cowering in my presence. The sense of regret still managed to stay with me as even this Elizabeth had her heart filled with vengeance and desired to kill Comstock. If a choice had popped up saying something along the lines of "Pursue Comstock" or "Take Elizabeth to france", the latter option would have been a no brainer for me. I would have happily dragged her away from this poisonous and violent environment. Let her mature a bit, take time off to develop a perspective, admit her to some University and let her study the infinite nature of parallel Universes a bit more. But the in-universe reality wasn't so kind to Elizabeth, or at least the Elizabeths that I had encountered so far in the game.
Overall an excellent game. Powerful gameplay assisted narrative. This was much more character focused than the last two Bioshock games, which is neither good nor bad. Just unexpected. The big lingering question for me right now is that if there truly are infinite worlds in Bioshock then how is it possible for Booker to cease to exist in all of them? Additionally, if Booker truly stops existing in all timelines then how does Elizabeth exist in the first place? But eh; I don't care if an in game explanation is never revealed. As long as Booker stays dead, I'm happy.
Oh, I've finished the game, but thank you. I probably wasn't paying attention to the scene because I was having too much of a rush from combat or something
Eh, I don't quite like that explanation. Does this mean you can only enter universes in which some form of you exists? Can you go to a location in a particular universe in which your home-self has never been before? And does your home-self just teleport to that location?
I got that feeling too. Just tie everything to infinity, a concept no one rigidly understands and fictionally is only limited by imagination. Genius move to use it as the major theme, because it smooths over plot holes.
SkullplateMurray
Member
Finished the game last night and still trying to wrap my head around it.
Just realised that Slate was wrong - Comstock was at Wounded Knee
Just realised that Slate was wrong - Comstock was at Wounded Knee
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Check out the hour glass at the top of this police box.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Finished the game last night and still trying to wrap my head around it.
Just realised that Slate was wrong - Comstock was at Wounded Knee
Yeah, I didn't get that as well. Did Comstock look different enough for Slate to not have noticed it was Dewitt? It's kinda confusing.
SpartanN92
Banned
WOW. What an asshole.
TheIronChancellor
Member
The booker that drowns at the end if the booker that becomes Comstock across all universes. When player-booker mentions that they had already been there, Elizabeth points out that it is a different place from the baptism they had just been, the baptism that he turns down, the event that creates the player-booker across all universes. Thus at the post credit scene booker is still alive because that booker never died, only Comstock booker. So you went from a divering timeline, to just the one. That is why you hear Anna in the next room because without Comstock booker (who's timeline no longer exists) Booker cannot sell Anna. Thus they are together.
"God's Beard!"
Member
He's still in his gambling debt, though.
TheIronChancellor
Member
The debt still exists, but without a Comstock to buy the kid he's not going to sell her.
Yeah, but the nature of having infinite Universes is that not only are there infinite variations of Bookers but infinite repetitions of those variations. So there are infinite Bookers who become Comstocks. So your perspective makes sense only when you assume that Bioshock Universe isn't really infinite. The game itself isn't very clear about this point anyways.
But you don't hear her. All I got was Booker shouting Anna, went and opened the door, you see a crib then cut to black. No noises.
TheIronChancellor
Member
The game mentions that there are constants across all universes and variables. The constant being a baptism. The variable across all universes is what happens at the baptism, does he reject it (player booker) or does he accept it (comstock booker). There are infinite comstocks and infinite bookers but these universes happen from the choice at the baptism, the divergent choice. By removing the point of divergence there is only player booker left, so the point of divergence is no longer comstock or booker but rather dead booker or alive booker. This fits with the heads vs tails, bird vs cage aspect of the game. Two choices from which an infinite amount of universes spawn.
TheIronChancellor
Member
Its implied by him asking "Anna is that you?". Clearly he heard something otherwise why would he ask the question.
I must have missed the part about the constants. And that still doesn't make sense within the context of "infinite" because there are infinite bookers making the choice about being baptized, not one.
The number number of universes altered by Lutece is not infinite.
Though I kinda agree. Infinite is such a strong word. It's hard for me to accept that the baptism can only go 2 ways. What if the priest died of a stroke? What if Dewitt decides to be baptized somewhere else after changing his mind? We're not really sure if the outcome will be the same. But I'd like to think that the guilt that the Lutece's feel and their need to change it, is the constant. So regardless if there are infinite universes that they were involved in, there would also be infinite ways they'd try to fix it. This scenario is just one of them, hence the constant coin flips between the both of them. (This game makes my head hurt)
TheIronChancellor
Member
There are infinite bookers making the choice yes, but there is only 2 ways the baptism can go, either acceptance or rejection. Thus for that moment all the universes for the bookers collapse into two possible choices, one of which is removed by the drowning. The booker that is drowned being a stand in for all bookers that would have accepted the baptism regardless of how different they may be.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
By the way,
does this mean that when Booker is dragged into the universe to watch it happen, he now assumes the role of that Booker, explaining why as the player, we only have the option of making same decision he already made in that situation?
In other words, we are only self aware Booker in the presence of Elizabeth for whatever reason?
I really hope someone answers this, because I am sort of lost at when Elizabeth says "this isn't the same place."
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
In a couple parts of the game, and over the credits.
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