SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

Y2Kev said:
I really thought there was going to be a stronger comment on player choice in the game (like BS1). When you're in Shantytown or whatever looking for those weapons, and Elizabeth is like, "Opening this tear could have big consequences!" and the game just forces you to do it, I thought there'd be something said about that.

It was actually really front of mind for me because of BS1. But they don't really say anything about it other than Tears Cause Shit.
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I'm only on my first cup of coffee today, so this may not be all that well thought out, but I think the fact that your choices don't change anything IS the comment on player choice, no? Like, all those small choices Booker can make (cage vs. bird, draw on the ticket vendor or not) are variables, not constants. They have no effect on the overall timeline and could be taken as a comment on the illusion of player agency.

Also, this may be another stupid question, but do we ever return to the initial Columbia timeline once we leave it in Finkton? When Liz and Booker come back to the Vox-dominated Columbia, that's an alternate timeline, but it's the one the game ends on, correct? Or am I missing something in the bigger picture?
 
i_am_not_jon_ames said:
I'm only on my first cup of coffee today, so this may not be all that well thought out, but I think the fact that your choices don't change anything IS the comment on player choice, no? Like, all those small choices Booker can make (cage vs. bird, draw on the ticket vendor or not) are variables, not constants. They have no effect on the overall timeline and could be taken as a comment on the illusion of player agency.

Also, this may be another stupid question, but do we ever return to the initial Columbia timeline once we leave it in Finkton? When Liz and Booker come back to the Vox-dominated Columbia, that's an alternate timeline, but it's the one the game ends on, correct? Or am I missing something in the bigger picture?
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You're correct, but just like the choices, they're just variables. They don't affect the outcome, so it doesn't matter. Either way, Elizabeth will follow in Comstock's footsteps unless you break the siphon and the cycle.
 
Lighting the two torches with Devil's Kiss to get into the mausoleum to get the bonus gift in the graveyard?


That was some straight up videogame-ass shit that made me smile after thinking moments before "I wonder...." and it worked.
 
i_am_not_jon_ames said:
Also, this may be another stupid question, but do we ever return to the initial Columbia timeline once we leave it in Finkton? When Liz and Booker come back to the Vox-dominated Columbia, that's an alternate timeline, but it's the one the game ends on, correct? Or am I missing something in the bigger picture?
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Now THAT is the question that was bugging me all throughout the end. The original timeline seems somewhat politically stable and Comstock and VOX forces are at a stalemate, preventing anyone from proceeding. You only make progress by jumping into alternate states, where that stalemate doesn't exist, sometimes Comstalk having the advantage, sometimes the VOX. Constants and Variables sure, but It makes sense that, had you never opened that "important" tear, you could have safely gotten off Columbia (until you were killed by Songbird anyway).

I was kind of hoping we'd learn more about songbird too. After learning every nook and cranny about the big daddy process in bioshock 1 and Minerva's Den, I thought that would be a given, that we'd learn about the drive the bird has and that it's not just a homicidal agent governed by musical notes.

Also, I don't know if this happened for anyone else, but when you reach comstock house the first time and you're suddenly out of weapons and out of salt and there's no weapons or salt until you reach the top, and you have to only use melee to get by and Elizabeth is screaming the whole way and suddenly all the power you've had up until that point is GONE, I actually felt incredibly panicked. Fucked Tomb Raider PR, I have never wanted to save anyone with more eagerness and resolve in a video game than once I hit Comstock House. It was amazing how frustration turned into urgency.
 
kinoki said:
I really wish they'd made more out of the whole alternate realities like they did when you had to bring Chen back to life. More alternate realities please. I wished they'd go nuts and do all kinds of madness with it. Like how one of the first trailers showed the Revenge of the Jedi-cinema and the dying horse.
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Revenge of the Jedi is still in. When she opens a tear to the eiffel tower in her room. It is on the marquee.
 
i_am_not_jon_ames said:
I'm only on my first cup of coffee today, so this may not be all that well thought out, but I think the fact that your choices don't change anything IS the comment on player choice, no? Like, all those small choices Booker can make (cage vs. bird, draw on the ticket vendor or not) are variables, not constants. They have no effect on the overall timeline and could be taken as a comment on the illusion of player agency.

Also, this may be another stupid question, but do we ever return to the initial Columbia timeline once we leave it in Finkton? When Liz and Booker come back to the Vox-dominated Columbia, that's an alternate timeline, but it's the one the game ends on, correct? Or am I missing something in the bigger picture?
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Okay, that makes sense to me. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it wasn't more front and center-- they've already "done that."

The finger thing was a little sudden to me. I hadn't noticed the finger at all and then in one elevator she goes, "Aren't you going to ask me about my finger?" and I was like...what?
 
i recently beat the game and was blown away overall. i enjoyed the combat as it felt like a faster paced version of Halo with the constantly swarming enemies, the two weapons limit which i felt encouraged the use of my plasmids more and while i def. had my standbys (scatter gun and shotgun for me) I felt i had to mix things up at certain points (same with my clothing though i had a specific *spec* that i stuck with throughout) which made the combat enjoyable as hell for me playing in Hard. With that said, its the story and setting that puts it over the top for me. While i do wish i had a bit more interactivity with the civilians in the earlier stages like a prompt to apologize or ask for directions, these are just nitpicks.

This makes me realize something however. The DLC for this game. Are we going to play alternate timelines? Sequels/prequels? both? Theres....interesting paths the game can go with the DLC season pass stuff.
 
Mesoian said:
Also, I don't know if this happened for anyone else, but when you reach comstock house the first time and you're suddenly out of weapons and out of salt and there's no weapons or salt until you reach the top, and you have to only use melee to get by and Elizabeth is screaming the whole way and suddenly all the power you've had up until that point is GONE, I actually felt incredibly panicked. Fucked Tomb Raider PR, I have never wanted to save anyone with more eagerness and resolve in a video game than once I hit Comstock House.
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I had flaming melee and reactive shock gears, was so happy during that bit with the spectre/ghosts. Beat the living shit out of them. Fuck bullets. Actually yelled YOU WANNA PLAY ROUGH? OK!
 
toastyToast said:
Now I get it

What was the significance of showing Rapture? Booker being Ryan doesn't make any sense for a number of reasons
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I think it was just a convenient way of getting rid of songbird that serves as fanservice. They establish early on that Songbird is susceptible to pressure, and what has more pressure than the bottom of the sea?
 
toastyToast said:
Now I get it

What was the significance of showing Rapture? Booker being Ryan doesn't make any sense for a number of reasons
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It's just another location. Another city that involved another man and another light house. They did it to show the parallels between Rapture and Columbia. So very different but so very similar. Constants and variables and all that jazz.
 
I just remembered, is there any indication of who or what Songbird is? I got most of the audio logs, and I don't know anything about him.
 
symphonask said:
Interesting point about their resemblances. It's now pretty obvious that Lady Comstock IS Anna/Elizabeth's biological mother, just in player Booker's world he isn't sterile so she is able to give birth. Booker and Comstock's wife is the same person, different timelines.

In Booker's world she dies giving birth to Anna, in Columbia she dies by Comstock's hand.

edit: weird paradox, in a way Lady Comstock is the biggest victim in all this
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I am confused. Did Lady Comstock live in the timeline Booker became Comstock instead of dying at birth.

I assume the ending indicates that the loop is broken.
 
Raxus said:
I am confused. Did Lady Comstock live in the timeline Booker became Comstock instead of dying at birth.

I assume the ending indicates that the loop is broken.
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no comstock killed her when she wouldn't accept Elizabeth because she thought she was a result of adultery. she was killed with the letuces
 
Plasmid said:
no comstock killed her when she wouldn't accept Elizabeth because she thought she was a result of adultery. she was killed with the letuces
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I got that I was just wondering how Anna got from dying from birth to dying at Columbia. Was she like Chen. Dies, Died, will Die?
 
Raxus said:
I got that I was just wondering how Anna got from dying from birth to dying at Columbia. Was she like Chen. Dies, Died, will Die?
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Huh? Anna Comstock didn't die from child birth. Booker's wife did in a separate universe. Booker's wife in the universe where Anna/Liz is born is not the woman who becomes Lady Comstock, at least as far as I know.
 
Raxus said:
I got that I was just wondering how Anna got from dying from birth to dying at Columbia. Was she like Chen. Dies, Died, will Die?
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Booker gets baptized. Booker becomes Comstock and gets religion. Anna dies in Columbia.

Booker doesn't get baptized. Booker & Anna have a baby together. Anna dies in childbirth.

Same people, two different branches.


Edit: My best guess, maybe not be 100% correct.
 
Jackl said:
Booker get baptized. Booker becomes Comstock and gets religion. Anna dies in Columbia.

Booker doesn't get baptized. Booker & Anna have a baby together. Anna dies in childbirth.

Same people, two different branches.
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Was it ever established that Booker's wife who died in child birth was the same Anna? Actually, that makes sense. He names the child after the mother.
 
Jackl said:
Booker gets baptized. Booker becomes Comstock and gets religion. Anna dies in Columbia.

Booker doesn't get baptized. Booker & Anna have a baby together. Anna dies in childbirth.

Same people, two different branches.


Edit: My best guess, maybe not be 100% correct.
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How is Lady Comstock 'supposed' to have died in Columbia?
 
DoctorWho said:
Huh? Anna Comstock didn't die from child birth. Booker's wife did in a separate universe. Booker's wife in the universe where Anna/Liz is born is not the woman who becomes Lady Comstock, at least as far as I know.
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Given all the parallels, I did see it as the same woman. Especially since Lady Comstock looks so much like Elizabeth. It makes their fates more potent - they both die because of the girl.
 
IG did such an amazing job in letting you really feel for Elizabeth, after a while there is really some kind of special bond between you and her. Especially Comstock's house was really painful to hear her scream for help and saying "i'm sorry, please bring me back, this is not the tower, what are you doing to me please stop, i'll be your daughter please don't hurt me"
 
The thing I wrestled with was that the story is actually pretty simple. Tell me about multiple dimensions and I'll be saying, "but, what about...? How about?" Essentially, this is focused on 2 dimensions and minor offshoots. There's always a Booker, a Comstock, a baby, Elizabeth and a city in the sky. At least that's what we're concerned with anyway. The implication that a baptized DeWitt always becomes a crazy man in the sky disappoints me somewhat. Why couldn't he just go on to lead a regular life? There are likely infinite average Joe Comstock for all we know but there's one permutation that's crazy which requires DeWitt to commit extra-dimensional seppuku to right that error. There are likely an infinite number of perfectly fine Comstock + Anna pairs too and you killed them all, Booker DeWitt, you son of a bitch.

What are the consequences for there only being one possibility for Booker DeWitt? Does he get super powers like Jet Li like in that movie?
 
After thinking on the story some, my biggest question right now is about the original prophecy. What 'archangel' showed Comstock his offspring would save/destroy the world from an arc in the sky that he built? I can see how after hooking Elizabeth up to their device it would be possible to explain Comstock's gift of foresight, but not before. Finding and retrieving a natural offspring after being rendered impotent in the Columbia timeline is no small feat, must have been a pretty solid vision.
 
Okay...

So, at the baptism two choices appear. Duke and Dimwitt. Duke leads to Columbia and Comstock. Dimwitt leads to New York and DeWitt.

When becoming Comstock (this was the favoured choice since it's the choice he makes when everything is as it's supposed to be) he runs into Letace who stumbles upon the quantum thingie. The whole thing escalates and we have two Letaceses and a dimwitt running around too. And let's not forget the girl with the missing finger. It's the Minority Report-choice.

  1. You know nothing. Kill him.
  2. Pre-cog #1 Predicts murder. Now knowing you commit a murder to choose not to commit the murder.
  3. Pre-cog #2 knows you're not going to kill him and thusly displays that.
  4. Pre-cog #3 knows you're not going to kill him but knowing that you choose not to kill him makes you decide to kill him.
  5. So, now you're left with 3 visions. 2 of which have you killing a man and the decision is all up to you... so you kill him.

Most likely Duke watched the Dimwitt-him, through Latece's device, with child and figured that "heck, that is my child and he's not using her" and decide to rightfully claim her. But the pinky got caught and opened the tear-effect manifesting in Elizabeth's powers.

Now repeat ad infinitum.
 
mash440 said:
How is Lady Comstock 'supposed' to have died in Columbia?
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Comstock believes an angel tells him his child will carry on his legacy and the human race.
Small problem. Comstock jewels aren't working, and he is sterile.
PROPHECY MUST BE FULFILLED.
Enter science. No problem, we'll just head to an alternate dimension where you did have children and take one!
After some portal hopping he shows wifey the new baby. Hey look I found your baby! No honest it's yours!
Wifey doesn't buy it and causes a host of problems, Comstock has to kill her to keep order.

Irony is that she sorta is Elizabeth's mother.
 
Did that scene with Booker and Liz that they showed the behind the scenes/recording of a few times (where Ken and Troy yell at Courtnee till she cries) make it into the game? When she's crying and says she can't control the tears. "It's not possible!"

I'm blanking right now. Did I miss it?
 
i_am_not_jon_ames said:
Did that scene with Booker and Liz that they showed the behind the scenes/recording of a few times (where Ken and Troy yell at Courtnee till she cries) make it into the game? When she's crying and says she can't control the tears. "It's not possible!"

I'm blanking right now. Did I miss it?
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I asked this myself too, i can't remind this being in the game. It was in the E3 2011 demo.
 
mash440 said:
There is one key thing I don't understand.

If the aim is to kill of our Protagonist, before he becomes either Booker T, or Cornstalk, then she didn't actually kill him.

Elizabeth killed the Booker T, that traveled through the mulitverse with her, and not the Booker before anything happened, and just the one at that. How does drowning Booker who has escaped from his dimension change anything?
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One of the theories is that Booker at the end is outside the infinite timeline, or that Liz has opened a tear to the past that brings 'booker' back to the moment where the choice to get baptized or not was made.

What 'archangel' told Comstock his offspring would save/destroy the world from an arc in the sky that he built? I can see how after hooking Elizabeth up to their device it would be possible to explain Comstock's gift of foresight, but not before. Finding and retrieving a natural offspring after being rendered impotent in the Columbia timeline is no small feat, must have been a pretty solid vision.
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Possibly delusions brought on from Wounded knee and other psychological trauma/guilt. The Lutece's have the ability to view tears of alternate realities even before Elizabeth is brought over, hence why they knew of the 'prophecy' of Liz coming to Columbia since Comstock foresaw Liz as his 'child' burning down New York, and then bringing that prophecy about by buying Liz from Booker. Self-fulfilling, in a way.
 
So what was the deal with the three fluctuating tubes of Elizabeth's possessions in the lower levels of Monument Island? There was teddy bear and a book of poetry, both of which changed color.

I assumed the objects were temporally-displaced in some way, and by altering them, we we actually altering some tiny variable of Elizabeth's life in the past that didn't have any "real" effect on the world (Elizabeth would never become the next Hitler because her stuffed animal was red,) but still had a measurable effect that could be observed in the "present" to show that the machine and the theories behind it were sound.

But then there's the third tube, containing a bloody cloth labeled "menarche." I had to look it up, but "menarche" is the a noun meaning "the first menstrual period." The cloth in the tube fluctuates between being stained with blood or appearing fresh and clean.

...

Were we switching between a universe where Elizabeth developed normally and one where she was also rendered barren by the effects of the tower and/or siphons?
 
what roll does letuce play in all of this?
she made it possible for booker/combstalk to use the tears and came up with the quantum stuff (that made columbia possible). is the male letuce her "brother" from another universe? why are the able to travel through the alternate universes at will? do they have the same powers as elizabeth?

why do they want booker to get elizabeth back (or in short: why do they help him?)?

another thing about elizabeth: was she born with her powers or did she get them because of letuces experiments?
 
Man Puncher said:
Lighting the two torches with Devil's Kiss to get into the mausoleum to get the bonus gift in the graveyard?


That was some straight up videogame-ass shit that made me smile after thinking moments before "I wonder...." and it worked.
Click to expand...

Ha, so that's what it was. What was the gear in there anyway?
 
Man Puncher said:
Lighting the two torches with Devil's Kiss to get into the mausoleum to get the bonus gift in the graveyard?


That was some straight up videogame-ass shit that made me smile after thinking moments before "I wonder...." and it worked.
Click to expand...

Shit, I never thought of that. I'll be sure to remember that during my 1999 mode run.
 
S1kkZ said:
what roll does letuce play in all of this?
she made it possible for booker/combstalk to use the tears and came up with the quantum stuff (that made columbia possible). is the male letuce her "brother" from another universe? why are the able to travel through the alternate universes at will? do they have the same powers as elizabeth?

why do they want booker to get elizabeth back (or in short: why do they help him?)?

another thing about elizabeth: was she born with her powers or did she get them because of letuces experiments?
Click to expand...

They're the catalysts for all the events in the game, mainly because Comstock ends up murdering them for knowing his secret (that he uses tears to see the future). They realize they made a horrible mistake and try to set it right by getting Booker to rescue Liz from himself.
 
S1kkZ said:
what roll does letuce play in all of this?
she made it possible for booker/combstalk to use the tears and came up with the quantum stuff (that made columbia possible). is the male letuce her "brother" from another universe? why are the able to travel through the alternate universes at will? do they have the same powers as elizabeth?

why do they want booker to get elizabeth back (or in short: why do they help him?)?

another thing about elizabeth: was she born with her powers or did she get them because of letuces experiments?
Click to expand...


Letuce brother is Letuce from another universe, they are identical bar one chromosone. Comstock hired Fink to murder them both but make it look like an accident. So whoever he hired, turned their machine off whilst they were in it. This gave the ability to travel through multiple universes. To what extent they have powers is up in the air. They either chose to guide Booker in the right direction or thats all they could do or they tried to interfere directly and it never worked.

They are helping Booker because they know what the outcome of Comstock/Columbia is, the destruction of the world below.

Elizabeth got her powers by parts of her being in 2 different universes at once. (Lutece alludes to his in one voxaphone).
 
S1kkZ said:
what roll does letuce play in all of this?
she made it possible for booker/combstalk to use the tears and came up with the quantum stuff (that made columbia possible). is the male letuce her "brother" from another universe? why are the able to travel through the alternate universes at will? do they have the same powers as elizabeth?

why do they want booker to get elizabeth back (or in short: why do they help him?)?

another thing about elizabeth: was she born with her powers or did she get them because of letuces experiments?
Click to expand...

Beaten like a mofo.

The Letuce's are my favorite characters in the game. I like the idea of them being the orchestrators of this whole thing yet appear as weird/comic relief characters most of the times you see them.
 
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