José Mourinho
cocknose
Good point.
I really enjoyed Infinite. But after I came away thinking the plot was a bit off. The more I think about it after the fact, the more it bothers me and the more I think I prefer the original.
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
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I really enjoyed Infinite. But after I came away thinking the plot was a bit off. The more I think about it after the fact, the more it bothers me and the more I think I prefer the original.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Thanks, I feel these two posts help explain that aspect better to me. Got the whole revisionist angle of Hall of Heroes at the time, but after the megaton the ending is sort of momentarily forgot about it when trying to work out what caused Comstock's in-game personality.
The priest calls Booker by his name during the first baptism, implying that they might know each other outside of the ceremony (the baptism could have been the culmination of many talks). He and Comstock probably kept in close contact, and I'd imagine Comstock would want him in Columbia. The priest, when in Columbia, appears to be blind though, so he wouldn't recognise Booker.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I hope its the latter.
The other option just throws everything that happens in the game out the window
Matt2thefuture
Member
Ken Levine clearly loves 80s music. He should just make an 80's game. Set in the 80s maybe cyber punk or something.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Actually, thinking about it, I believe that trapper's (can't remember his name) voxophones are explicitly there to parallel Booker-Booker's previous trauma. He is a racist Pinkerton who commits an atrocity that changes how he views the world.
jacksepticeye
Member
Damn...
I'm exaggerating but you never once thought they would kiss or anything? even for a second?
José Mourinho
cocknose
Why accept your short comings and then completely distance yourself from your revelation and become worse?
I don't know, it's interpretation or something.
Elizabeth wasn't wearing that dress then...
XANDER CAGE
Member
That's awesome.
XANDER CAGE
Member
You know, I think that part may have just been a little too on the nose. I recognized that song instantly, and the tagline "the music of tomorrow, today!" couple with the knowledge going in that this game messed around with space/time...
instrumental "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" is playing on the beach scene
media blackout son. Best game I ever did it for.
There are actually a small chain of audio logs from Fink to his brother, talking about how he (the brother) is a genius for getting songs from the tears and then producing and selling them in Colombia.
ThaiGrocer
Member
This one?
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
It's still kind of hard to piece together. Baptised Booker becomes some sort of zealot, creates Columbia, wants to wage war against the surface, needs an heir to do it, but then how does he come up with stealing the daughter of an alternate version of himself? Is her quantum ability just a convenient bonus from her having entered a tear? Was studying her quantum powers just a cool power up that he wanted to exploit now that he had it? How did he come to know everything about non-baptised Booker?
Yep, that one. When it played during the credits, it just made the whole experience more profound.
Wish I had done this a little more strictly. After I saw the trailer/video with Tears For Fears I immediately regretted watching it and hadn't looked at anything else since. I can only imagine going in expecting this game to be completely drenched in early 1900s, then experiencing that tear. Sometimes its good to be a casual gamer closed off from the regular game coverage.
Vire
Member
The thing is, most of the video that I saw for the game actually didn't end up being in the game.
So it was almost all 100% fresh.
Matt2thefuture
Member
One thing that is a little bothersome to me is the after credit scene (Booker going to see his baby).
I feel like that scene exists just to leave everything open ended to discuss. Like Inception's spinning top, is the baby there? Is it not? Is it all in Booker's head did he invent the sky city? Or is that scene another instance or possibility etc. The end book mark is just to leave it open for discussion and serves no real purpose to the story. Some think this like inceptions ending is good it begs for discussion or thought. Does it stop spinning, does it not? The truth is neither because it is never shown it is open ended to whatever you the viewer want it to be. This is good and also bad storytelling I think.
I feel like that scene exists just to leave everything open ended to discuss. Like Inception's spinning top, is the baby there? Is it not? Is it all in Booker's head did he invent the sky city? Or is that scene another instance or possibility etc. The end book mark is just to leave it open for discussion and serves no real purpose to the story. Some think this like inceptions ending is good it begs for discussion or thought. Does it stop spinning, does it not? The truth is neither because it is never shown it is open ended to whatever you the viewer want it to be. This is good and also bad storytelling I think.
I did saw one screenshot that showed a tear by mistake. I immediatly closed it and that was that. Thought it meant Liz had kinecit powers like early on or some other crap. Didnt think much of it.
Avoiding media for this game brought me back on the train of doing that more often. It was absoultely the correct decision. I only posted once in the OT before beating the game, and I did so without reading it.
Baptised Booker takes the name of Comstock, and finds a physicist named Lutece who helps him build Columbia. She discovers tears, apparently, and wants to be joined with her alternative dimension self (Robert Lutece).
Because of the experiments with tears, Comstock is rendered infertile. Rosalind Lutece suggests that he find his heir from an alternative dimension (with her being able to final bring Robert Lutece over). Comstock needs his heir because the tears have shown him that his "seed" will "drown in flames the mountains of man" and fufill his ambitions.
So a plan is devised to steal Anna (Elizabeth). Part of her is left in non-baptised Booker's dimension, which allows her to manipulate tears without the machinery. It appears the experiments enhance this ability, whilst the siphon also holds her back.
The tears seem to explain many of Comstock's prophecies. He can literally see into the future and past through them.
Chance Hale
Member
What is the song the girl is singing in the alternate Booker/Vox martyr timeline where the stockade was before the jump? One complaint I did have about that part was only one vox member noticed you were similar in appearance to the "Martyr" Booker, and then it was never mentioned again outside of the story moment involving Daisy's distrust.
BUT YOU ACTUALLY LIVE INFINITELY IN MULTIPLE DIMENSIONS
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
But didn't the Luteces bring Booker on their own will? And used his memory loss from the tears to manipulate him into thinking he still owed a debt to somebody, and then the situation could set itself straight. And presumably Comstock looks into the tears and sees Booker with his hand brand wrecking Columbia up, so he adds the False Shepard to the prophecy, probably because he thinks he can do something to stop Booker, which he does in at least one world.
ArchedThunder
Banned
The more I think about this game's plot and the ending the more I love it. I really love that the plot isn't straight forward like the first two games.
YOLI.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Man, I really enjoyed Infinite, but... that game looks so much more incredible.
The Lutece's wanted to be together. They didn't intend for anybody to be hurt, and thought that Booker just willingly gave up his daughter to repay his debt. Booker does seem to actual have a debt, based on the implication of him being a big gambler and alcoholic in his apartment room.
The Bioshock: Infinite experience is facilitated by the Lutece's, who are trying to fix the problem the started.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
They still would have had to have manipulated his memories though. If they just randomly showed up pretending to be representatives of whoever he owed his debt to and gave them his daughter, then the people he actually owed a debt to would still be after Booker. They would have to have tricked him into thinking he owed a debt, especially because Robert keeps repeating the debt line in Booker's flashback. Which is the Lutece still under orders from Comstock who stepped through a tear to trick Booker into giving up his daughter, and not the quantum Lutece who's trying to "help."
Point is, how did they manipulate him into giving up his daughter in the first place? If he owed a debt to somebody, they would still come after him because he owes them, not Lutece.
Also, isn't there a statue that transforms from Rosalind into Robert?
Point is, how did they manipulate him into giving up his daughter in the first place? If he owed a debt to somebody, they would still come after him because he owes them, not Lutece.
Also, isn't there a statue that transforms from Rosalind into Robert?
ArchedThunder
Banned
Maybe he owed a debt to them.
jacksepticeye
Member
Yeah the game is amazing but the stuff they showed was kind of misleading to be fair. Some of the sequences in the demos were greater than how they were in the game.
It's cool to say "that's just another Booker though in Columbia" now that we know the story
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
How? They don't live in the same world as him.
The stuff they showed wasn't misleading, the whole game was basically rebuilt. I didn't really like the idea of combining your "plasmids" with Elizabeth's either.
That's an interesting idea, that Comstock and the Lutece's forced the debt on Booker. I think it's more of a "We're powerful people, and we can wipe the slate clean" -type deal that Robert Lutece provided, and in his desperation Booker accepted.
Yeah, I actually thought about that, especially with the line about how "your debt to Mr. Comstock has been paid", which is really crucial - it's possible that the Luteces and Comstock set Booker up so that he'd be in debt to them.
Yeah. It almost seems like the perfect DLC opportunity. Tell the story of Booker and Comstock as it was previously, with Comstock being part of the political faction "The Founders" (if only for the "Charles! Attend!" scene). Same, but altered city. Same, but different characters.
jacksepticeye
Member
Maybe Comstock conjured it up because he knew Booker would "Give up the girl" to wipe it away.
Or he could have just paid the sharks he owed money to
Clearly at the end of the game you come to the resolution that wounded knee was a profound and deeply disturbing point in Booker's life. In one reality while playing as Booker you clearly hear of his regret towards what happened at wounded knee at the Hall of Heroes with Elizabeth. It is easy for me to believe that with this version of Booker he is ridden with guilt over the atrocities of wounded knee and has adjusted his world view to see peoples as equals or at the very least to believe that people don't deserve as animals to be slaughtered.
In the reality in which he accepts the baptism and uses religion as a means to cope with the guilt we get the Comstock version of Booker who is a megalomaniac, and abuses the power of religion to his means. It is historically accurate to the period that religion was used to justify racism, and white-supremacy. I think the divergence in the two's beliefs is easy to justify within the fiction.
To be honest, the ending salvaged it for me. Post gaming afterglow has faded.
I didn't like the guns, I didn't like the powers, the enemies began to bore me by the 3rd hour. The gameplay in general was ok but not amazing, Beyond the twins/Comstock/Elizabeth/Bird little in Columbia interested me. The audio log narratives weren't as entertaining, and to be honest you feel lost and disjointed majority of the time.
Which is all forgiven when Liz warps you through several dimensions to piece everything together.
1. Liz was my favorite character. I really wish there was more random dialogue with her sometimes
2. Choices pretty much don't matter. I don't mind this so much due to the ending, but some variety of events would fit the story just fine.
3. Columbia seems amazing, but could have been more fleshed out. I imagine console RAM limitations had something to do with the missing demo sections being left out.
I didn't like the guns, I didn't like the powers, the enemies began to bore me by the 3rd hour. The gameplay in general was ok but not amazing, Beyond the twins/Comstock/Elizabeth/Bird little in Columbia interested me. The audio log narratives weren't as entertaining, and to be honest you feel lost and disjointed majority of the time.
Which is all forgiven when Liz warps you through several dimensions to piece everything together.
1. Liz was my favorite character. I really wish there was more random dialogue with her sometimes
2. Choices pretty much don't matter. I don't mind this so much due to the ending, but some variety of events would fit the story just fine.
3. Columbia seems amazing, but could have been more fleshed out. I imagine console RAM limitations had something to do with the missing demo sections being left out.
I think that's more likely. "Mr. Comstock is a powerful man, and he can wipe away your debt, if you give us the girl".
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
That's what I'm saying. They would have had to manipulate Booker into owing them. Or paid off the sharks. We're just to assume it happened in a way that Booker was set up, and the writers shouldn't need to explain every little detail of the game. Although a definite answer could just have been put in a Lutece voxophone somewhere.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Yeah, buying off someone's else's debt isn't an unheard-of practice.
jacksepticeye
Member
Damn watching that 10 minute demo again brought up a lot of changes. Elizabeth conjures a cloud of rain that you zap with electricity to fry a bunch of dudes.
That's WAY different to the real game. Remember the trailer before too where liz stops you from falling by levitating you with powers then the handyman grabs her. She has none of those vigor type plasmid powers in the final version
That's WAY different to the real game. Remember the trailer before too where liz stops you from falling by levitating you with powers then the handyman grabs her. She has none of those vigor type plasmid powers in the final version
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
If we were to talk about semantics, they could have had Lutece say "Bring us the girl and consider the debt paid," which would have still been a little ambiguous but made the "We'll pay it for you" idea most plausible and easily-implied.
MDSVeritas
Member
I don't know, that was overly scripted, and to be honest very little of that looked fun to play for me. It looked interesting to be sure, but in more a cinematic presentation way, not an enjoyable gameplay-base way. I wish things like the Rain cloud made by Elizabeth were in the game, but they included oil spills and huge puddles of water that she can tear in that have the same effect. Also, the voice for Booker in that trailer just didn't sound very good to me. I guess it's hard to beat Troy Baker, though.
Damn watching that 10 minute demo again brought up a lot of changes. Elizabeth conjures a cloud of rain that you zap with electricity to fry a bunch of dudes.
That's WAY different to the real game. Remember the trailer before too where liz stops you from falling by levitating you with powers then the handyman grabs her. She has none of those vigor type plasmid powers in the final version
Two reasons for this. One is a story reason, as her powers are a result of of her transportation. It wouldn't make any sense for her to have Vigor style powers. Ken also said they didn't want her to do stuff the player could do.
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