SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
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XANDER CAGE
Member
Except Levine wrote Infinite so, y'know, there's that. Considering that 2 doesn't even factor into Infinite at all, Infinite's ending simply ties off a two-game series. We're not going to see another Bioshock, not after the way Infinite ended.
Paging the guy who has the "I can see all the doors, and behind one of them..." quote memorized.
Keyser Soze
Member
I thought AD was a Arrested Development reference, and was sad when I saw the reveal that it was in fact not,
rip *shock series
1) Booker was never a Vox leader. If you listen to his diaries from that reality, he explains that he has to go along with the Vox because in that reality they have already moved Liz from monument island to Comstock house and the place is like a fortress, he needs an army to get in and decides to throw in with the Vox. When he gets killed, Fitzroy capatilizes and uses him as martyr for her cause.
2) The boy leutice had a change of heart at some point and felt that their meddling in the timelines was a bad thing. The girl didn't care but the brother said that if she didn't help he would leave back to his own reality to never see her again. She had built a bond with herself from another reality and liked the companionship of having someone who was on her intellectual level so she agreed to help. Their plan was to get Booker to awaken Liz's full power.
3) No idea, maybe valve because it is on steam?
yeah I expected booker to say, "I've made a huge mistake."
XANDER CAGE
Member
Bioshock, sure. Plenty of room for more ___shock games though, considering Infinite's ending only applies to Bioshock. System Shock doesn't really fit the bill.
dark_inferno
Member
Im not quite sure. If Levine puts a Base on the Moon thing with references to System Shock he would probably make himself a based god. The endless possiblities we now got is just... he could make 1000000 sequels.
I don't think it 'saves' the infinite range of Elizabeths that have or will go through the same trials, but rather, it saves a few stemming from that baptism and that drowning. Just like the game itself, where it's a microcosm of the 'millions and millions' of the multiverse but there's meaning in how that particular Booker acted. At least, we see this play out with the 'older' Elizabeth atop the Comstock House; she was doomed, but there was a chance to save another version of her.
Someone else pointed out, that the location where the player Booker is a nexus of all Booker's choosing baptism. That's why there's a bunch of Liz's there, all possibilities of Comstock are getting erased by Liz with her omniscient powers. It's not that literal of a scene.
Elizabeth is a time lord at this point. When she walks you through that final door, she brings you to the exact moment in history before the baptism and places you in that Booker's body. The drowning is a symbol for her using her powers to make sure every single Booker will die on that die. She basically, funnels every single baptism into one point of death, no choices, no splits, no anything. She locks it so on that day, no matter what, Booker DeWitt (and Comstock) die.
If only Columbia had a tear that played Franklin Comes Alive, they wouldn't be so bigoted.
Keyser Soze
Member
I was sad when they revealed the Crows Vigor. I thought there would have been a Beads Vigor instead
The One Who Knocks
Member
1. That is a different timeline (he also didn't become a Vox leader). In this timeline Elizabeth was moved from Monument Island to Comstock House and Booker agreed to side with the Vox Populi viewing it as the only way to enter the house without his death. Booker and Slate burnt down the Hall of Heroes. Chen Li managed to produce the guns since he was never taken, nor were his tools. Booker was killed in Shantytown it would seem (why he was there I've no idea but that's where his Voxophones are if I'm remembering correctly). He didn't trust Fitzroy, but he had no choice but to side with her in this universe. Slate says something along this lines too which hints at the necessary alliance between two forces who mistrust one another (it's not the exact quote but it has a similar message behind it, I can't remember if it's a Voxophone, which I suspect, or just something he says) 'I doubt in times of peace all road in Caeser's togas would share drinks with the other'.
2. Yes, and no. It was half of the male Lutece's motivation (as he didn't like being trapped in the timeline) but the other half was because he felt guilty about his meddling in the timeline. Fink didn't murder them, he was hired to murder them as if it was an accident and tried to create the accident by sabotaging the Luteces' machine but rather than murder them it trapped them in the timeline. By resetting the timeline they will never become trapped/murdered, true, but it isn't the sole reason the male Lutece wishes to.
Your answers about both Slate and Archangel are pure conjecture, which for me is the main issue with the story as a follow up to BioShock. BioShock was heavily invested in making this ridiculous concept same realistic, and gave solid, reasonable and understandable answers to the players questions; questions that the player never even needed to ask because Irrational understand the kinds of question the world they build would create. We absolutely understood the fundamental way that ADAM in the first game worked; it rewrote genetic code. That answer didn't need to go any further because it was a believable, satisfactory answer for the majority of players. It gave the necessary information without weighing down the story. Vigors are not given the same explanation here at all, and their attempt to fill in the blanks within the narrative as to why only a tiny fraction of the population use them, and only two of the six or so available, is laughable. Their explanation is really left to "Oh, they haven't been tested, could be risky"? That's total horseshit, considering what we see of them in-game. Consider some of these points:
Enough time has passed in the game's story for multiple "Vigor Solutions" to be found, researched and manufactured.
The Fair we pass through at the beginning of the game shows a handful of Vigors at stands, namely the Bucking Bronco and Possession. The others are simply being advertised. This says, with the same level of conjecture as you're giving most answers, that the Possession and Bucking Bronco are new while the rest are older Vigors, a fact supported by...
The fact that several areas and several pieces of equipment within the game run on vigor technology; the Shock-Jock. The vigor must have been around and usable for a decent amount of time if it's been integrated into how Columbia works, never mind the fact that it's been considered safe enough to be displayed with other machinery in public areas. This leads me to another point...
The kind of people who would have access to and use a Vigor like Shock-Jock would have been the repairmen and lower level folk of Columbia, the exact same people who take part in the VoxPop uprising later in the game. An uprising in which they need all the manpower and firepower they can get their hands on. But you're saying the same people who have access to these useful Vigors instead think "No, a little risky. I'll just run into battle with my rifle. Don't want my Vigor to backfire on me!" And what about the people being run out of Columbia? None of them thought to stand up and fight back using an easily attainable and powerful weapon that is constantly just lying around everywhere in Columbia with the "fuel" for the this weapon literally overflowing in every location?
Which brings to the largest point demonstrated by BioShock 1, having the ability to rewrite and remake yourself was a messy subject and, in part, the ultimate downfall of Rapture. You're telling me that in a city so obsessed with race and power, and with this all bubbling under the surface, that it wouldn't play a part and would be largely ignored by the entire population on both sides of the issue?
The Vigors feel like a massive blindspot in the story, and that's the problem with this game to me; it feels like they designed the game around the location and the "tear" concept, then Ken figured out the ending and they wrote backward from there. BioShock took painstaking measures to make the world feel believable, where Columbia falls short on so many aspects of vital basic elements of how the world works. And if anyone believes that those details were "pointless" in the first game and unneeded in this, then I wish I could be in your shoes because those details were what made the first game such an incredibly immersive experience, and when those key details about how this world works, especially when you include a Multiverse, aren't explained to a satisfactory level, then the immersion and the story fall apart for me. And don't say they've been left open to interpretation because some story elements like Vigors shouldn't be left open, it's just lazy writing.
XANDER CAGE
Member
It was cheap and the idea of contained side-stories in Columbia (ala Minerva's Den) sounds interesting to me.
Picture the world branching off at two points with that baptism scene: He doesn't and becomes gambling Booker with a kid he sells off to cover his debt, he does and becomes Comstock.
What drowning Booker does when she does it is completely snip off both possibilities at the root. If you're picturing a fork in the road, this action removes the road before it splits. Why do it at that specific moment? It WAS Booker's idea to kill Comstock when he's born, and he's born AT the baptism.
Basically, Booker(the player) appearing in any scene like that means there's no "Booker" in that timeline anymore, just our Booker taking over. That's what happens everytime a Tear happens. Sometimes this results in the person not being able to deal with the conflicting memories, and they start bleeding from the nose. It's easier to think of Booker in that scene having time traveled back to that point, so the Booker of that scene is the one of that point.
This is one of my favorite games in a while so I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt and support 'em.
Plus dem five infusion bottles.
Also the pistol and machine gun skins give a 35% bonus damage upgrade.
Keyser Soze
Member
I will buy it after they reveal DLC 1. If it is in any way interesting, then I will go for it.
No reason to buy it early. The extra items you get were pointless.
holy shit the launch trailer is so terrible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wq5KHPYWWY
im glad I avoidad all this crap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wq5KHPYWWY
im glad I avoidad all this crap
What side story is left to be explored?
The creation of songbird?
Bioshock 1 levels with Infinite's combat system? bringing back lock-on sonic and knuckles with sonic 3 style
Yeah I'm more inclined to buy it now if I know what I'm getting.
The 5 infusion bottles just seems like a pay to win thing.
1- Oh, must have been one of the 12 diaries I missed.
2- Yeah, I got the diaries for that, so I can relate.
3- I thought that for Valve, but Ubi Montreal was a shock.
By the way, my theory for Rapture is from what Ken Levine said on the Bafta Q&A: they wanted you to be on the relation between Big Daddy and Little Sister this time. So, the Rapture reality is exactly that: Booker would be Jack/Big Daddy and Liz is the Little Sister. And "AD" means "Anna DeWitt", I think.
Apophenia Overload
Member
randomwab, you've neatly explained why BI feels like a mishmash and not a well-realized setting to me.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I bought it, mainly because it was cheap and I have incredibly high hopes for the DLC. I expect big things from the DLC. Big things.
I love this scene so much. It mirrors the reaction to Rapture from some people at the time.
Shoot just read this somewhere else (gamers with jobs), stop me if it was posted here before.
But couldn't the archangel be the older Elizabeth who destroys New York and believed Comstock and all that. She had control over her powers, but went crazy. Perhaps that why Comstock said "the archangel told me I needed an heir" or whatever, else she would not exist. It still needs some flushing out, but it's a thought.
But couldn't the archangel be the older Elizabeth who destroys New York and believed Comstock and all that. She had control over her powers, but went crazy. Perhaps that why Comstock said "the archangel told me I needed an heir" or whatever, else she would not exist. It still needs some flushing out, but it's a thought.
side story dude
doesnt mean they have to explain anything left unexplained
contained story
Mister_Bubbles
Member
I have this awesome sequence in my head of you starting the game as an astronaut at the bottom of a shuttle launch platform at sunset. You make your way up the scaffolding, enter the shuttle and take your place in the cockpit, with mission control talking you through flipping the buttons and starting the launch sequence. The shuttle blasts off, and you get to experience leaving the earth's atmosphere, blasting through space and flying over the moon, where, over the curvature of the horizon, a moonbase comes into view.
Gahhhhh.
José Mourinho
cocknose
Exactly what I wanted to say, but I'm not articulate enough.
I guess. Dunno, some of the theories about how all existence of Booker/AD gets funneled there seemed contrary to what the title itself implies. Infinity of doors, infinity of choices made. Maybe the post-credit Booker is one who made the 'right' choice early in his life; chose to shoulder the burden rather than sell his child.
I love this scene so much. It mirrors the reaction to Rapture from some people at the time.
Already said it here but I hated it. Whole scene was perfect right until that crappy 4th wall-ish joke. Awful timing, felt inappropiate.
dude
columbia
is a place
contained story
there's more people
I dont understand what you dont get
have you played minerva's den?
XANDER CAGE
Member
That ain't the real one.
Here you go
I actually really like their choice of Nico Vega for their trailers.
nope.
What would the lighthouse that leads to naked-Columbia look like?
dark_inferno
Member
Yeah that would be a better explanation than the Lutece's.
What the hell is that?
This is the only launch trailer I know of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8f3XJePYPpo.
Edit: Beaten.
I am ok with this.
Voice of Reason
Banned
Oy, well anyway, my answer about Slate is only partially conjecture and I'll give you that if you want. It's not like I'm making any leaps in logic but I've made my case there. The Archangel stuff isn't conjecture at all. Almost every single early Leutice diary points out this fact.
About your whole vigor speech here. You seem to be making an assumption that messes up the rest of your discussion. When people say that they don't want to use vigors because they are untested, you seem to be assuming that people are worried about what the vigors can do on an extrenal level. To me, it appears they are worried about what it does on an internal level. No one cares that devil's kiss may burn down a house or two, they are worried that it might shorten their life span by 40 years. I'm sorry that the vigors and plasmids are such huge parts of the story to you but that is really only a small thing compared to what the true scope is. The story is the city and the man's interaction with that city and it's leader. That has always been and always will be the main scope of the Bioshock franchise. The plasmids/vigors are such a small part of the city that they don't need a multitude of explanation. They do make the city unique of course but so does the cities leaders, factions, and location.
dark_inferno
Member
Then you better not see this bullshit here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ijwot_kW6w
Marketing wise they have done a pretty bad job. The beyond the sea atmosphere of Bioshock was really good. But this here is just pure bullshit.
like blurred screens
or anime style
or call of duty modern warfare style
or breakdown (Xbox game) style
Apophenia Overload
Member
I'm fine with Shock games always having the same notes (formerly cool setting turned evil and twisted by dark powers, survival-horror elements, powerful dangerous intelligences, manipulation of the player's character, etc.) It's a cool enough style. But to have each story be variations of Bioshock/BI would be too much.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Fair enough, I loved it. It did break the fourth wall though.
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